Driver to drive?

> incentivizing dealers

This is one of the few things we agree. There needs to be some incentive for dealers to support EVs after sale. I know Nissan have to let me use their dealer facilities, but they are not making it easy.

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 11:04:44 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:

incentivizing dealers

This is one of the few things we agree. There needs to be some incentive for dealers to support EVs after sale. I know Nissan have to let me use their dealer facilities, but they are not making it easy.

"Incentivizing dealers" is code for financial rewards for selling cars. I think the after market stuff will come with time but if you are looking to Nissan dealers for charging, you are doing it wrong.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

--

Rick C.

-++- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-++- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 8:11:32 AM UTC-8, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 11:04:44 AM UTC-5, edward...@gmail.com wrote:
incentivizing dealers

This is one of the few things we agree. There needs to be some incentive for dealers to support EVs after sale. I know Nissan have to let me use their dealer facilities, but they are not making it easy.

"Incentivizing dealers" is code for financial rewards for selling cars. I think the after market stuff will come with time but if you are looking to Nissan dealers for charging, you are doing it wrong.

Why doesn't that surprise me?

Nissan dealers are reasonable enough to provide free level 2 and sometimes fast charging. But they do have to prevent other branded cars from using them.

 

On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 07:01:34 -0800 (PST), three_jeeps
<jjhudak@gmail.com> wrote:

On Wednesday, January 1, 2020 at 6:07:07 PM UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:
Hmmm . . . . Food for Thought

Snow, Traffic Jams and Electric Cars - has anyone thought about it?
If all cars were electric ... and were caught up in a three hour
traffic jam?
With dead batteries - then what?
Not to mention, that there is virtually no heating in an electric
vehicle.
And if you get stuck on the road all night, no battery, no heating !
You can try calling 911 to bring women and children to safety!
But they can not even come to help you since all roads are blocked !
And when the roads become cleared, no one can move!
How do you charge the thousands of cars from the traffic jam?
Same problem during summer vacation departures with miles of traffic
jams.
This will make cars run out of ?fuel? and cause never ending traffic
jams.
But that will never happen, right ?

dont forget the string of vehicles leaving south Flordia heading to points (very) north to escape hurricanes.
My problem with EVs is that no matter how rational and careful the driving habits, routing, and planning may be, there are cases that make a singular technology with very limited auxiliary or alternative fuel/propulsion approaches that make them unacceptable. With single source gasoline or hybrid vehicles, one can throw a 5 gal can of gasoline in the trunk and get an additional 75 to 100+ miles to get to a safe state. The refueling can happen in 5 mins. I can't throw 500 D cell batteries in an EV as a backup. If I could, I'd still need to take 1-8 hours (depending on the approach) to fully recharge the primary batteries....as the hurricane sweeps over the area where my vehicle is recharging, as well as taking out parts of the power distribution system.
This is why, IMHO, hybrids make the most sense.

We have a similar issue driving over the Sierra crest to lake Tahoe. A
blizzard or a spinout may slow traffic to a crawl in zero-degree
weather, with nowhere to charge.

Hybrids make a little sense for urban stop-and-go driving that
recovers some braking energy, for people who count every penny. But
not enough sense to make it interesting to me. Hybrids aren't
economical in San Francisco.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 04:44:33 -0600, "Tim Williams"
<tiwill@seventransistorlabs.com> wrote:

>Seems I mostly see Gerber for fab, ODB++ for assembly data.

We generate both when we release a board. The gerbers are encapsulated
inside the ODB structure.

Some refer to it as "ASCII", which seems disingenuous and I assume is a
historical artifact.

PCB workflows change slowly and aren't very flexible, it seems. I mean, you
can very easily parse a pick-and-place file, or CSV or other spreadsheet or
table format, but no one in PCBA gets paid to write parsers.

We occasionally write some Python to snoop or edit PCB files. PADS
will import and export anything in ASCII, including the parts
libraries.

One quirk that comes to mind, a testability report that doesn't detect SMT
pads, only vias of adequate size and thru pads. I assign testpoints in my
design, but no one reads the outputs, go figure.

Tim

We add BIST multiplexers on most boards, so we can check power
supplies and interesting things without fixturing. Sometimes we bring
things out on a ribbon cable. Last resort is test points and a pogo
fixture, which we seldom do. But I need to do soon for an especially
weird little board.

Our test department manager attends our design reviews and discusses
testability.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 9:44:28 PM UTC-5, mpm wrote:

I mention burglar alarm, but my question is applicable to just about any alarm "zone wiring" that is to be supervised.

How is this traditionally done?

Assume a loop voltage of 5 volts DC, with an end-of-line (EOL) resistor at the far end of the wire pair to be supervised. That arrangement will result in (3) circuit possibilities.

1) Current through resistor only (i.e., a known, pre-determined current value). This would represent the normal, no-alarm condition. I think? Pretty sure..

2) A SHORT across the EOL resistor, resulting in maximum current.
This would be the alarm condition. And...

3) An OPEN in the zone loop wires before the EOL resistor, resulting in zero current (and hence, would indicate a "trouble" on the wiring.

My question is:
Do alarm system designs use a bunch of window comparators for this?
Or maybe an ADC? Or high-side current sensors across resistors on the panel side, or what??

I know these circuits have been around for DECADES, but as usual, I can't put my hands on one.

You can buy a VISTA 20 control board on ebay for about $50. There is about 5V when terminated with te correct EOL resistance, 10V open and near 0 shorted. It can be programmed for some choices of ms delay to respond.

Schematics are hard to find.

m

 

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 12:09:44 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 18:44:24 -0800 (PST), mpm <mpmillard@aol.com
wrote:

I mention burglar alarm, but my question is applicable to just about any alarm "zone wiring" that is to be supervised.

How is this traditionally done?

Assume a loop voltage of 5 volts DC, with an end-of-line (EOL) resistor at the far end of the wire pair to be supervised. That arrangement will result in (3) circuit possibilities.

1) Current through resistor only (i.e., a known, pre-determined current value). This would represent the normal, no-alarm condition. I think? Pretty sure..

2) A SHORT across the EOL resistor, resulting in maximum current.
This would be the alarm condition. And...

3) An OPEN in the zone loop wires before the EOL resistor, resulting in zero current (and hence, would indicate a "trouble" on the wiring.

My question is:
Do alarm system designs use a bunch of window comparators for this?
Or maybe an ADC? Or high-side current sensors across resistors on the panel side, or what??

I know these circuits have been around for DECADES, but as usual, I can't put my hands on one.

I did a bunch of building automation systems, for high-rises in NYC. I
found it most efficient to scan/mux the loop currents into an ADC, to
minimize the electronics per channel. I used an uncalibrated
single-slope ADC, plenty good enough. The people who buy fire and
supervision systems mainly want cheap.

Not sure when you did this, but NFPA and ANSI have moved in with standardization and certification, which probably means local law enforcement won't let you register it without it. And then regardless, three false alarms and you're out, unless you pay big fines.
And most of it is wireless cell phone based now. If you can use 2-sided tape, you can install an alarm system.

--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

On Tue, 7 Jan 2020 09:35:40 -0800 (PST),
bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, January 3, 2020 at 12:09:44 PM UTC-5, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Thu, 2 Jan 2020 18:44:24 -0800 (PST), mpm <mpmillard@aol.com
wrote:

I mention burglar alarm, but my question is applicable to just about any alarm "zone wiring" that is to be supervised.

How is this traditionally done?

Assume a loop voltage of 5 volts DC, with an end-of-line (EOL) resistor at the far end of the wire pair to be supervised. That arrangement will result in (3) circuit possibilities.

1) Current through resistor only (i.e., a known, pre-determined current value). This would represent the normal, no-alarm condition. I think? Pretty sure..

2) A SHORT across the EOL resistor, resulting in maximum current.
This would be the alarm condition. And...

3) An OPEN in the zone loop wires before the EOL resistor, resulting in zero current (and hence, would indicate a "trouble" on the wiring.

My question is:
Do alarm system designs use a bunch of window comparators for this?
Or maybe an ADC? Or high-side current sensors across resistors on the panel side, or what??

I know these circuits have been around for DECADES, but as usual, I can't put my hands on one.

I did a bunch of building automation systems, for high-rises in NYC. I
found it most efficient to scan/mux the loop currents into an ADC, to
minimize the electronics per channel. I used an uncalibrated
single-slope ADC, plenty good enough. The people who buy fire and
supervision systems mainly want cheap.

Not sure when you did this, but NFPA and ANSI have moved in with standardization and certification, which probably means local law enforcement won't let you register it without it. And then regardless, three false alarms and you're out, unless you pay big fines.
And most of it is wireless cell phone based now. If you can use 2-sided tape, you can install an alarm system.

This was maybe 30 years ago. The NYC fire authorities approved our
system literally overnight.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

lunatic fringe electronics

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 10:28:04 AM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

I don't live in southern Florida, so this particular scenario doesn't bother me so much. I'm more worried about those five asteroids they discovered that were in near-Earth orbits which is to say not at all.

What is more interesting is the rational that prompts millions of people to live on a one dimensional strip of land that is only a few feet above sea level and is hit frequently by massive hurricanes. Why would anyone want to live someplace that has the same problem, year after year, after year? Being devastated is not a question of if, but only of when.

Why, why, why?

To be as far from you, as possible?

I have lived in Florida for over 30 years, and very little of the state is only three feet above sea level. Hurricanes hit anywhere from Mexico to New York State, not just Florida. I have been through three hurricane seasons in that time that called for evacuation, but I live in the center of the state where there is a lot less damage. Compare that to the northern Coastal states with severe freezing and other issues. Down here, home ownership is the standard, not living in cramped apartments with no parking, high crime and homeless pissing on your doors. To me there is no other choice.

The highest point in Florida is 345 ft which is higher than many places in New England and the Great Lakes areas.

 

Michael Terrell <terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote in
news:bd5b3df4-833c-4204-b0fe-5c7e39a56354@googlegroups.com:

The highest point in Florida is 345 ft which is higher than many
places in New England and the Great Lakes areas.

Pretty damned ambiguous... "some places".

There are entire towns and cities in those same areas where *nothing*
is that far down. We got hills, much less mountains and most make 345
ft pale. The Delaware Water Gap is at 335 ft.

I know of zero "places" in Florida where one can sit on a road and
look UP 335 ft to the top of "Florida".

 

[Robert Baer]

speff wrote:

On Friday, 3 January 2020 00:19:23 UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:
Is Bittele Electronics Inc., 2680 14th Ave, Unit 1&2, Markham,
Ontario L3R 5B2, Canada reliable?
Please cite known details if allowed (and if restrictions, let me
know via e-mail).

Thanks

See those guys at the local electronics shows (EPTECH) every year but have not
used them.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

Thanks

 

[Robert Baer]

speff wrote:

On Sunday, 5 January 2020 01:26:17 UTC-5, Robert Baer wrote:
Originally developed by Valor, ODB++ is an electronic database for
printed circuit board manufacturing. Created in 1995, it was designed as
a way to better organize the transfer of board data from the designer to
the manufacturer.
What is ODB++?
ODB++ is a data file structure stored in a hierarchy of files and
folders. Often when ODB++ files are transferred, designers will use
common operating system commands that preserve the hierarchy structure
by lumping all of the data into one compressed file.

Why ODB++?
The hierarchy structure in ODB++ allows designers and manufacturers to
transfer more than just the standard layer artwork and drill data
featured in the competing Gerber format. ODB++’s unique file structure
allows for large amounts of additional data to be included in a single
file, including the material stack-up, bill of materials, and component
placement, as well as dimension and fabrication data. With the exception
of Eagle, ODB++ can be accessed through most PCB design programs
(Expedition, PADS, Allegro), making it a nearly universal format
throughout PCB manufacturing.
Who Uses ODB++?
Because of its convenience and structure, ODB++ has become the
industry standard format for PCB manufacturing. Today, around 80 percent
of PCBs are fabricated using ODB++. Amongst the top-ten largest EMS
companies, virtually all are ODB++ compatible.
How does a PCB Manufacturer Handle ODB++ Data?
ODB++ files make it easy to generate all of the necessary programs and
instructions for PCB machinery. ODB++ allows for quick and easy product
manufacturing, without the hassle of having to reverse-engineer data to
the machine software. ODB++ makes it possible for manufacturing to
create your product at the shortest possible turnaround time. Its
comprehensive file structure guarantees less chance for machine or human
error in the manufacturing process, ensuring top quality and reliability
in your PCBA.

*NOTE: "With the exception of Eagle"

O stands for Owned by Mentor Graphics?

Today, around 80 percent of PCBs are fabricated using ODB++.

Dubious. This source claims: https://blog.jjsmanufacturing.com/gerber-odb-pcb-fabrication

Approximately 90% of all PCB designs worldwide are transferred from designer to fabricator using Gerber RS-274X, and, therefore, regarded by many as the de facto industry standard.

In contrast, the ODB++ file format is estimated to account for around 10% of the total PCB market. However, is simplicity and its user friendliness are making it an increasingly compelling option.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

One source sez 80%,another sez 10%.
Maybe both are liars.
In any case, 100% of PCB fabricators use data supplied to them...

 

[Robert Baer]

Tim Williams wrote:

Seems I mostly see Gerber for fab, ODB++ for assembly data.

Some refer to it as "ASCII", which seems disingenuous and I assume is a
historical artifact.

PCB workflows change slowly and aren't very flexible, it seems.  I mean,
you can very easily parse a pick-and-place file, or CSV or other
spreadsheet or table format, but no one in PCBA gets paid to write parsers.

One quirk that comes to mind, a testability report that doesn't detect
SMT pads, only vias of adequate size and thru pads.  I assign testpoints
in my design, but no one reads the outputs, go figure.

Tim

Hmm..guess a single-sided PCB with 50 SMT zeners in series and no
vias is untestable by most FAB houses...

 

[bitrex]

On 1/7/20 10:40 AM, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 2:47:55 AM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:

The introduction of the EV signals the end of the auto industry as we
have known it, yes I think so. That doesn't at all mean everybody's
gonna get an electric car or have any car at all. The Volt and Bolt and
Leaf were the first affordable long-range high-performance
electric/hybrid vehicles and I think there's a good chance they will be
the last, too.

Your OCD with the Volt is showing. Too bad no one else agrees with you. All the Volt did was squander GM's tax credits. It would appear they used it as a springboard to the Bolt, but completely failed on any follow through such as information on charging, incentivizing dealers or even advertising. It's almost as if GM had no interest in EVs and were actually trying to sink that boat. Well, GM certainly put a hole in their own dinghy.

Honda agrees with you about hybrids. We'll find out if they alone are right. Oh, wait, hybrids have been around for two decades. If they were the way forward you'd think they would already have moved the market and created a new standard vehicle. Instead GM deleted the Volt. The Volt is now just a comma on the page of automotive history.

Tends to be the fate of 99% of cars that are made and then discontinued
I suppose...

However I don't think the "way forward" is going to be a world of the
wealthy people drive luxury EVs (or are driven by them), and the less
well-to-do drive economy EVs, and the trucking industry drives electric
trucks, and everyone "fills up" at charging stations instead of gas
stations, and essentially everything is very similar to now except the
ICE has been swapped for a battery and motor.

Ain't gonna look like that. Watch n see.

 

Robert Baer <robertbaer@localnet.com> wrote in
newsm5RF.161678$AF2.150210@fx34.iad:

Tim Williams wrote:
Seems I mostly see Gerber for fab, ODB++ for assembly data.

Some refer to it as "ASCII", which seems disingenuous and I
assume is a historical artifact.

PCB workflows change slowly and aren't very flexible, it seems. 
I mean, you can very easily parse a pick-and-place file, or CSV
or other spreadsheet or table format, but no one in PCBA gets
paid to write parsers.

One quirk that comes to mind, a testability report that doesn't
detect SMT pads, only vias of adequate size and thru pads.  I
assign testpoints in my design, but no one reads the outputs, go
figure.

Tim

Hmm..guess a single-sided PCB with 50 SMT zeners in series and
no
vias is untestable by most FAB houses...

Place round node pads between them all. Then, once populated, you
can probe and test individual or strings of compnents. OR you
actually could place a via between each diode pair, and then you
would have test nodes all across the bottom of the board. OR you
could populate both sides and use vias and two layers to use half the
sq in real estate, but twice the profile height.


Prior to population... Fab house... Single layer?

Can be inspected by a computer optically. Not one single
continuity test needs to be performed. Hell, human visual inspection
would be 100% good enough and likely quicker.

So, yeah, with their bed of nails and such they could test
continuity between two nodes, but visual can do the exact same thing
just as reliably. In this case. A Single sided board with a single
series string of (not yet populated) parts.

You talking contract assembly of the finished product? Then I
would NOT test in this case. Better to test each diode first. So if
they can do that, then OK. Testing the whole string would require
that you construct and provide a test fixture (chamber). (or pay
through the nose for them to set one up).

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 1:32:09 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

The highest point in Florida is 345 ft which is higher than many places in New England and the Great Lakes areas.

Next time I'm in Florida I must climb to the top of Mt Florida! I'll bring some oxygen bottles just in case.

--

Rick C.

--+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 4:04:44 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 1:32:09 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

The highest point in Florida is 345 ft which is higher than many places in New England and the Great Lakes areas.

Next time I'm in Florida I must climb to the top of Mt Florida! I'll bring some oxygen bottles just in case.

Why bother? There is no oxygen on your planet.

Make sure that you visit Sugarloaf Mountain.

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 3:05:24 PM UTC-5, bitrex wrote:

However I don't think the "way forward" is going to be a world of the
wealthy people drive luxury EVs (or are driven by them), and the less
well-to-do drive economy EVs, and the trucking industry drives electric
trucks, and everyone "fills up" at charging stations instead of gas
stations, and essentially everything is very similar to now except the
ICE has been swapped for a battery and motor.

Ain't gonna look like that. Watch n see.

You are right, that's not how it will be. Most users will charge at home or work and the charging will be done at times that suit the grid to take advantage of low cost, underutilized generation or energy sources that are only available intermittently.

As someone pointed out, there will actually be less need for charging stations since most cars will almost never use them.

Watch n see.

--

Rick C.

-+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 4:15:09 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 4:04:44 PM UTC-5, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 1:32:09 PM UTC-5, Michael Terrell wrote:

The highest point in Florida is 345 ft which is higher than many places in New England and the Great Lakes areas.

Next time I'm in Florida I must climb to the top of Mt Florida! I'll bring some oxygen bottles just in case.

Why bother? There is no oxygen on your planet.

Make sure that you visit Sugarloaf Mountain.

I've been there. 1,283 ft high it is part of a ridge between Clarksburg and Frederick, MD. But we have real mountains in MD too.

--

Rick C.

-+--- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+--- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Clifford Heath]

On 8/1/20 12:37 am, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Tuesday, January 7, 2020 at 8:27:03 PM UTC+11, Cursitor Doom wrote:
On Mon, 6 Jan 2020 17:52:23 -0800 (PST), Bill Sloman
bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote:

Of course you do. Psychopaths always find it hard to realise why other people find them obnoxious.

Well, I've had you down for a few things on this group, Bill, but I
never had you down for a snowflake. Dishing out all that supercilious
condescension and yet you can't take a little polite criticism in
return.

Cursitor Doom trying to look inoffensive, and failing. He may have a very strange idea of what might "constitutes polite criticism" but he has claimed that I'm a Marxist, by which he might merely have meant that I'm not his kind of right-wing nitwit, since he clearly doesn't understand the rest of the implications.

Fancy having to tip-toe around the senstitivities you've never
shown before. Hmmm. Nope. I don't buy it.

You say what you feel like saying, and anybody who doesn't like it is "excessively sensitive".

The problem with venting opinions about subject you don't understand is that you can be quite a bit more offensive than you imagine.

On the other hand, you could be not only a psychopath but also complacent psychopath. But pig-ignorant in any event.

Bill, just shut up. You're embarrassing yourself and wasting everyone's
time. We saw you start it. Now we want to see if you can stop it.