Drill tripping earth leakage protector

[David]

On Sat, 07 May 2005 16:55:15 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:

Have you actually measured the leakage current seen by the RCD?

No.

If so what
is it? If not, then how can you know it is not too high and causing
problems.

You think the leakage current was regularly too high
at 7.30am and 10pm but OK at all other times and has
now stopped being too high at those times too?

If the leakage current was marginal, then the added effect of the control
tones could be sufficient to trip the RCD, especially if the leakage was
partially caused by capacitance. Also, you mains voltage may have changed,
which changed you leakage a bit.

David

 

[Mike Harding]

On Sun, 08 May 2005 18:24:36 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sat, 07 May 2005 16:55:15 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:


Have you actually measured the leakage current seen by the RCD?

No.

If so what
is it? If not, then how can you know it is not too high and causing
problems.

You think the leakage current was regularly too high
at 7.30am and 10pm but OK at all other times and has
now stopped being too high at those times too?

If the leakage current was marginal, then the added effect of the control
tones could be sufficient to trip the RCD, especially if the leakage was
partially caused by capacitance. Also, you mains voltage may have changed,
which changed you leakage a bit.

If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

Mike Harding

 

[David]

On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:58:34 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:

If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that, get

a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"

Mike Harding wrote:


If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that, get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.

** No need to measure the standing leakage - it is far easier to measure
the available margin before tripping of a protected circuit. Just add some
known leakage current to earth at an AC outlet.

Eg

A 10 kohm, resistor draws 24 mA from a 240 volt outlet.

Two of them in series draws 12 mA.

Get the idea ??


BTW All appliances that are normally left on should be on for this test.



............. Phil

 

[Mike Harding]

On Mon, 09 May 2005 07:44:37 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:58:34 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:


If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that, get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.

David if the earth leakage in my house was running close
to the 30mA trip rating of my breaker then I would see
nuisance tripping, especially, over a long time period.
That has not happened - once! - however, as I stated,
there was a contiguous time period when the breaker
was routinely tripping at 7.30am and 10pm.

Mike Harding

 

[David]

On Mon, 09 May 2005 11:30:40 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David"
Mike Harding wrote:


If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that, get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.



** No need to measure the standing leakage - it is far easier to measure
the available margin before tripping of a protected circuit. Just add some
known leakage current to earth at an AC outlet.

Eg

A 10 kohm, resistor draws 24 mA from a 240 volt outlet.

Two of them in series draws 12 mA.

Get the idea ??


BTW All appliances that are normally left on should be on for this test.

This is not the correct way to test for leakage, and you will have no idea
of what the leakage is for several reasons.

1) You don't know what current the RCD trips at. 30mA is a nominal
current, and the standard says it should not trip at less than 50% of
rated current, so it could trip anywhere between 15 and 30mA.

2) RCDs have a tripping time range, where the higher the current, the
faster the trip. AS3190 says that 30mA RCDs should trip at rated value in
less than 300mS. Lower currents will trip in longer periods. Unless you
time the trip operation (as required by proper testing) you won't have
much of an idea.

3) If the leakage is caused by capactitance, adding resistance will also
not give a true indication of leakage, as the currents are out of phase.

4) You still have no idea of the leakage current on the neutral, and its
contribution to the total leakage.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"
Phil Allison

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that,
get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't
know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.



** No need to measure the standing leakage - it is far easier to
measure
the available margin before tripping of a protected circuit. Just add
some
known leakage current to earth at an AC outlet.

Eg

A 10 kohm, resistor draws 24 mA from a 240 volt outlet.

Two of them in series draws 12 mA.

Get the idea ??


BTW All appliances that are normally left on should be on for this
test.



This is not the correct way to test for leakage,

** So this fucking moron cannot read plain English:

" No need to measure the standing leakage - it is far easier to measure
the available margin before tripping of a protected circuit. "

and you will have no idea of what the leakage is for several reasons.

1) You don't know what current the RCD trips at. 30mA is a nominal
current, and the standard says it should not trip at less than 50% of
rated current, so it could trip anywhere between 15 and 30mA.

** But you will know what the available margin is - fuckwit.

2) RCDs have a tripping time range, where the higher the current, the
faster the trip. AS3190 says that 30mA RCDs should trip at rated value in
less than 300mS. Lower currents will trip in longer periods. Unless you
time the trip operation (as required by proper testing) you won't have
much of an idea.

** Crapology - you will know what margin there is for more leakage.

3) If the leakage is caused by capactitance, adding resistance will also
not give a true indication of leakage, as the currents are out of phase.

** More crapology - you will know how much resistive leakage margin you
have.

The capacitive margin will be a little less.

4) You still have no idea of the leakage current on the neutral, and its
contribution to the total leakage.

** The fuckhead is still persisting with his idiot "rusty nail" from
neutral to earth scenario.




.............. Phi

 

[David]

On Tue, 10 May 2005 12:16:27 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David"
Phil Allison

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that,
get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't
know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.



** No need to measure the standing leakage - it is far easier to
measure
the available margin before tripping of a protected circuit. Just add
some
known leakage current to earth at an AC outlet.

Eg

A 10 kohm, resistor draws 24 mA from a 240 volt outlet.

Two of them in series draws 12 mA.

Get the idea ??


BTW All appliances that are normally left on should be on for this
test.



This is not the correct way to test for leakage,


** So this fucking moron cannot read plain English:

" No need to measure the standing leakage - it is far easier to measure
the available margin before tripping of a protected circuit. "

Your method does not give you the margin before tripping. It only gives
you the the additional resistive leakage current in the active before the
RCD trips.

If you had any experience at all Phil in electrical wiring, you would
know that neutral faults are often the cause of RCD faults.

and you will have no idea of what the leakage is for several reasons.

1) You don't know what current the RCD trips at. 30mA is a nominal
current, and the standard says it should not trip at less than 50% of
rated current, so it could trip anywhere between 15 and 30mA.


** But you will know what the available margin is - fuckwit.

Not if there is a fault in the neutral

2) RCDs have a tripping time range, where the higher the current, the
faster the trip. AS3190 says that 30mA RCDs should trip at rated value in
less than 300mS. Lower currents will trip in longer periods. Unless you
time the trip operation (as required by proper testing) you won't have
much of an idea.


** Crapology - you will know what margin there is for more leakage.


3) If the leakage is caused by capactitance, adding resistance will also
not give a true indication of leakage, as the currents are out of phase.


** More crapology - you will know how much resistive leakage margin you
have.

The capacitive margin will be a little less.



4) You still have no idea of the leakage current on the neutral, and its
contribution to the total leakage.


** The fuckhead is still persisting with his idiot "rusty nail" from
neutral to earth scenario.

A common misdiagnosed cause of RCD trippings is an insulation beakdown
from neutral to earth, often indeed caused by a nail. Read on the Clipsal
web site what they suggest looking for when RCD's trip.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" = publicly masturbating IDIOT

Your method does not give you the margin before tripping.

** Yes it does.

It only gives
you the the additional resistive leakage current in the active before the
RCD trips.

** Same thing.

If you had any experience at all Phil in electrical wiring, you would
know that neutral faults are often the cause of RCD faults.

** Not relevant to the situation.

A common misdiagnosed cause of RCD trippings is an insulation beakdown
from neutral to earth, often indeed caused by a nail.

** Not relevant to the situation.

When is this autistic, asinine cunt going to make the proper distinction
between "leakage " and plain old metallic conduction.

BTW fuckhead -

Neutral to earth shorts cause quite large currents to flow via the earth
wire tripping the RCD instantly.


BTW 2 fuckhead -

Get yourself a bloody spell checker.



........... Phil

 

[David]

On Tue, 10 May 2005 14:03:01 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David" = publicly masturbating IDIOT

Your method does not give you the margin before tripping.


** Yes it does.


It only gives
you the the additional resistive leakage current in the active before the
RCD trips.


** Same thing.

No it is not. The neutral is very relevant to the situation.

If you had any experience at all Phil in electrical wiring, you would
know that neutral faults are often the cause of RCD faults.


** Not relevant to the situation.


A common misdiagnosed cause of RCD trippings is an insulation beakdown
from neutral to earth, often indeed caused by a nail.


** Not relevant to the situation.

When is this autistic, asinine cunt going to make the proper distinction
between "leakage " and plain old metallic conduction.

BTW fuckhead -

Neutral to earth shorts cause quite large currents to flow via the earth
wire tripping the RCD instantly.

Where did I mention shorts? I said insulation breakdown. This may have
some resistance, and may not cause instant tripping.


David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" = a publicly masturbating, bloody IDIOT

Phil Allison

A common misdiagnosed cause of RCD trippings is an insulation beakdown
from neutral to earth, often indeed caused by a nail.


** Not relevant to the situation.

When is this autistic, asinine cunt going to make the proper distinction
between "leakage " and plain old metallic conduction.

BTW fuckhead -

Neutral to earth shorts cause quite large currents to flow via the earth
wire tripping the RCD instantly.


Where did I mention shorts? I said insulation breakdown. This may have
some resistance, and may not cause instant tripping.

** Liar - you said a "nail" !!!!!


A to E and N to E leakage currents are *cumulative* in the RCD sensor -
since A to E leakage *adds* to the total active wire current while any N to
E leakage *reduces* the total neutral wire current. The RCD senses the
difference of these currents at all times - which is simply the sum of the
two leakage currents. So testing with a 10 kohm resistor (or two )from A
to E will assess the additional margin of imbalance current allowable before
tripping - just as I said.

Now, N to E leakage current flow ( if any exists) depends on there being a
*voltage drop* along the neutral conductor - so it depends on the load
amps at any moment. Simply adding sufficient load amps will eventually cause
RCD tripping. If a load produces a current surge at switch on, like an
electric motor, incandescent lamp, TV set or large transformer does - that
will be a cause of RCD tripping.

For such tripping to happen on an *intermittent* and fluky basis, the N to E
leakage resistance needs to be in a * narrow* range so that normal loads
create only a few mA of current flow in the earth conductor and do not trip
the RCD while a surge or sufficient additional resistive load causes the N
to E leakage to exceed the RCD's threshold. This ( rare) situation should be
obvious since the RCD will only trip when certain equipment (or a
combination of equipment) is switched on and mostly at the *moment of switch
on*.



........... Phil

 

[Andrew]

Not sure why I bothering looking at Newsgroups again with crap
like this going on.


"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in
news:3eb49pF259baU1@individual.net:

"David" = a publicly masturbating, bloody IDIOT

Phil Allison

A common misdiagnosed cause of RCD trippings is an insulation
beakdown from neutral to earth, often indeed caused by a nail.


** Not relevant to the situation.

When is this autistic, asinine cunt going to make the proper
distinction between "leakage " and plain old metallic conduction.

BTW fuckhead -

Neutral to earth shorts cause quite large currents to flow via the
earth wire tripping the RCD instantly.


Where did I mention shorts? I said insulation breakdown. This may
have some resistance, and may not cause instant tripping.


** Liar - you said a "nail" !!!!!


A to E and N to E leakage currents are *cumulative* in the RCD
sensor - since A to E leakage *adds* to the total active wire
current while any N to E leakage *reduces* the total neutral wire
current. The RCD senses the difference of these currents at all times
- which is simply the sum of the two leakage currents. So testing
with a 10 kohm resistor (or two )from A to E will assess the
additional margin of imbalance current allowable before tripping -
just as I said.

Now, N to E leakage current flow ( if any exists) depends on there
being a *voltage drop* along the neutral conductor - so it depends
on the load amps at any moment. Simply adding sufficient load amps
will eventually cause RCD tripping. If a load produces a current
surge at switch on, like an electric motor, incandescent lamp, TV set
or large transformer does - that will be a cause of RCD tripping.

For such tripping to happen on an *intermittent* and fluky basis, the
N to E leakage resistance needs to be in a * narrow* range so that
normal loads create only a few mA of current flow in the earth
conductor and do not trip the RCD while a surge or sufficient
additional resistive load causes the N to E leakage to exceed the
RCD's threshold. This ( rare) situation should be obvious since the
RCD will only trip when certain equipment (or a combination of
equipment) is switched on and mostly at the *moment of switch on*.



.......... Phil

 

[Mike Harding]

On Tue, 10 May 2005 09:15:03 GMT, Andrew
<phl2005nohamspam@hotmail.com> wrote:

Not sure why I bothering looking at Newsgroups again with crap
like this going on.

Oh that's just Phyllis - she's having a period or something,
as usual

Nevertheless - Phyllis may be (is!) a total social misfit but
does know a bit about electronics and what he says is
correct. Although I do agree, increasing the leakage with
resistors is a bit of rough method and won't tell you what
the current (no pun leakage is to much better than 50%

But I must say you are still a very long way away from
convincing me that the tripping of my breaker was not due
to the tones.

Mike Harding

 

[Lance Ryan]

How do you think the ripple frequency gets to the relay?, from its own
separate circuit?
Yeah right!
"Phil Allison" <philallison@tpg.com.au> wrote in message
news:3e398uFv114U1@individual.net...

"Bazil"

Could it possibly be an off peak device like hot water heater?



** Electric water heaters usually have their own circuit, separate from
the
RCD protected power outlets.

Like electric stoves, heaters are known to have fairly high leakage
currents.




.......... Phil

 

Phil Allison obviously knows his stuff. What a pity he lowers the tone of
this ng by his continual swearing, which has been going on a long time, and as
his response to this post will obviously show. Come on Phil, you do know your
stuff - cut out the language and let's have the expertise without it!

Phil Allison wrote:

"Poxy" = one grade A, fucking criminal !!

Phil Allison wrote:

"Poxy" = how aptly named is this anencephalic, PITA fuckwit ??

** The R word is "residual" - you pile of fucking dog shit.

** Which bit of this sentence was too hard for you to comprehend - you
fucking piece of dog shit.

" ** RCDs sense current ***only*** - dickhead. "

[easily selected rantings from] ................... Phil

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Mon, 09 May 2005 07:44:37 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:58:34 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:


If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that, get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.

David

I wonder if the following arrangement could be used to measure the
leakage current in a particular appliance. The leakage would be
mirrored in the single-turn secondary winding and displayed directly
on the ammeter. Otherwise one could use a multiple turn secondary and
a more sensitive ammeter. I suppose one could dissect an ELCB and
adapt it for this purpose.

toroid
_ __________
/ \ | | -> Ileakage
A o---/---\-----o o--|appliance |_____
N o---|---|-----o o--| | |
__\___/__ |__________| |
| \_/ | _|_
| | =
| A ammeter E
|_______|
->
Ileakage


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[David]

On Fri, 20 May 2005 08:08:48 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Mon, 09 May 2005 07:44:37 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

On Sun, 08 May 2005 20:58:34 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:


If that were the case I would expect random nuisance
tripping - there has not been any?

Any more suggestions?

I suggest that you actually measure the leakage. If you can't do that, get
a electrician with the right gear to measure it for you. If you don't know
the standing leakage, you don't have any idea of how close the RCD is to
tripping.

David

I wonder if the following arrangement could be used to measure the
leakage current in a particular appliance. The leakage would be
mirrored in the single-turn secondary winding and displayed directly
on the ammeter. Otherwise one could use a multiple turn secondary and
a more sensitive ammeter. I suppose one could dissect an ELCB and
adapt it for this purpose.

toroid
_ __________
/ \ | | -> Ileakage
A o---/---\-----o o--|appliance |_____
N o---|---|-----o o--| | |
__\___/__ |__________| |
| \_/ | _|_
| | =
| A ammeter E
|_______|
-
Ileakage


- Franc Zabkar

Yes, that would work, assuming the torroid was OK. The recommended way to
test for leakage is to use a sensitive tong ammeter. You can get ones that
have 40mA FSD, and you basically clip them over the active and neutral and
measure the total leakage current directly.

David

 

I had a drill press that was doing the same thing. I tried using the
drill plugged into an ELCB built into a power board (one of the HPM
ones), and it still then tripped occasionally but only the board,
instead of the house one tripping. Worth a shot if you can't find a
better solution.

I'd say it was luck that the power board was probably a little quicker
than the house, and it only happened on switch on, I suspect some
relationship to the inrush current, and the voltage phase as I hit the
switch.

The drill is now out in a shed, with an ELCB, thaty doesn't trip at
all.

- Rob.

 

[Glenn Pure]

Thanks for this, and all the other advice.

I had already thought of your fix, Rob and will go that way if I have
to.

Cheers
Glenn

r@r.r.com wrote:

I had a drill press that was doing the same thing. I tried using the
drill plugged into an ELCB built into a power board (one of the HPM
ones), and it still then tripped occasionally but only the board,
instead of the house one tripping. Worth a shot if you can't find a
better solution.

I'd say it was luck that the power board was probably a little quicker
than the house, and it only happened on switch on, I suspect some
relationship to the inrush current, and the voltage phase as I hit the
switch.

The drill is now out in a shed, with an ELCB, thaty doesn't trip at
all.

- Rob.

Glenn Pure
Canberra, Australia
Web page: http://www.evans-pure.net