Drill tripping earth leakage protector

[Phil Allison]

"David"
Phil Allison wrote:
Some dickhead:

I'd be surprised that RF switching hash could be strong enough to trip
an
RCD.

** So would I - and that is NOT what I posted !!!!

When an arc is created by a switch opening or BOUNCING at switch on,
energy
is lost as radiated power - radiated into space by the cable feeding
current to that arc acting as an antenna. Any AM radio will prove that
fact.

Now - unless the energy radiated by the active and neutral cables is
exactly the SAME - the RCD will sense a current imbalance and TRIP.
Some
RCDs may be affected by the radiated RF noise too - and the two effects
can act in unison.

Hence the intermittent nature of the tripping.


There would have to a HUGE imbalance in the radiated power from the
active and neutral to trip and RCD. While the switch is arcing, the
current in active and neutral would still be the same. For a 30mA
imbalance, the active or neutral would have to radiate approx 7.2W of RF
more than the other. This is probably unlikely the prime reason for
tripping.

What is more likely is that there is a residual leakage current in the
house allready, caused by other devices (possibly with a DC bias). This
is probably just below the threshold of the RCD.
When the switch is opened
the RFI is then sufficient to unbalance the RCD and trip. This could be
caused by nonlinearity etc in the RCD. This could be because the RCD is
older, and doese not have proper EMC compliance to IEC61008/9. Modern RCDs
are designed not to nuisance trip on voltage spikes, switching transients,
RFI etc.

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be from the
*active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

A burst of RF voltage superimposed on the active will likely increase
current leakage significantly - moisture etc being a good RF conductor plus
aided by the pre-bias of the supply voltage. However a similar burst of RF
voltage will cause a lesser leakage to earth via the neutral - simply
because there is no pre- biasing voltage difference.

The resulting difference in leakage current may be all it takes to trip the
RCD so radiated RF into "space" may well be not very significant in this
case.

However, even portable ( ie plug in) RCDs suffer false tripping due to
switch arcing - this may be a design issue re EMI susceptibility.




............ Phil

 

[David]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 12:54:56 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be from
the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well. Try
shorting the neutral to ground on a socket outlet. The RCD will most
likely trip.

Despite the neutral being tied to earth at the MEN point (assuming an MEN
system), due to voltage drops in the neutral wiring, the neutral will be
above ground potential in most places in the wiring system. You can easily
get 2 to 5 VAC neutral - earth. A lowish resistance fault can then cause
the required residual leakage current. The neutral is considered a "live"
conductor by the wiring rules. While not affecting normal operation of a
device, a neutral to earth leakage can cause the RCDs to trip.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"
Phil Allison wrote:

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be from
the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well.

** Irrelevant to any of my points.

Current flow due to a short is not "leakage" - you ass.

Kindly fuck off.



............. Phil

 

[David]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 14:01:32 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David"
Phil Allison wrote:


** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be from
the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well.


** Irrelevant to any of my points.

Current flow due to a short is not "leakage" - you ass.

Please go back and read my post properly, and point out where I said a
short is leakage. My words which you omitted were "A lowish
resistance fault can then cause the required residual leakage current".

Your statement

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be
from the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt
difference.

is not necessarily true, and if you only check the active for leakage you
may not find the cause. You will need to isolate the neutral and test that
for leakage too, as anyone compentent to test wiring would know and
understand.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David" = a horse's backside - par excellence

Phil Allison wrote:

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be
from
the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well.


** Irrelevant to any of my points.

Current flow due to a short is not "leakage" - you ass.


Please go back and read my post properly,

** Kindly go and get stuffed.

and point out where I said a short is leakage.

** My points were about leakage.

You reply was therefore out of context.

Context = something autistic shitheads have no clue about.

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be
from the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt
difference.


is not necessarily true,

** It is true - for the stated reason.

and if you only check the active for leakage you
may not find the cause. You will need to isolate the neutral and test that
for leakage too, as anyone compentent to test wiring would know and
understand.

** Fucking gobbdeggook.

Piss off you imbecile.





................ Phil

 

[David]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 17:38:33 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David" = a horse's backside - par excellence

Phil Allison wrote:

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be
from
the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt difference.

No, a neutral to ground fault can cause leakage current as well.


** Irrelevant to any of my points.

Current flow due to a short is not "leakage" - you ass.


Please go back and read my post properly,


** Kindly go and get stuffed.


and point out where I said a short is leakage.

And so was mine. You can have leakage which affects RCDs from the neutral
conductor.

** My points were about leakage.

So was mine.

You reply was therefore out of context.

Context = something autistic shitheads have no clue about.

You have correctly proven that point

** If there is residual 50 Hz current leakage, then it will all be
from the *active* wiring to ground - since there is a 240 volt
difference.


is not necessarily true,


** It is true - for the stated reason.

The reason that there is a 240 volt diffence is not a reason for leakage.
Leakage is cause a resistance from the conductor to ground. A nail or
something could have penetrated the neutral conductor and be causing
leakage currents

and if you only check the active for leakage you
may not find the cause. You will need to isolate the neutral and test that
for leakage too, as anyone compentent to test wiring would know and
understand.


** Fucking gobbdeggook.

Piss off you imbecile.

I guess if you fixed more than toasters you understand. How sad your life
must be, unable to accept that sometimes other people may know more than
you Phil.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"


** You are acting like horse's arse.

Do you have any idea what the mental defect called "autism" is ???

Let me tell you you ARE a prize example.

There is no cure - so you are a doomed to be a fucked in the head, public
menace - for life.

I do hope it is a very short one.




............. Phil

 

[David]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 18:23:44 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David"


** You are acting like horse's arse.

Do you have any idea what the mental defect called "autism" is ???

No Phil. We fortunately don't have that disorder in our family genes. I
can only wonder why you know so much about it. Still it would explain your
behaviour, especially your acceptance of fantasy instead of reality, and
deficits in social interaction.

David

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"
Phil Allison


** You are acting like horse's arse.

Do you have any idea what the mental defect called "autism" is ???

Let me tell you you ARE a prize example.

There is no cure - so you are a doomed to be a fucked in the head, public
menace - for life.

I do hope it is a very short one.

No Phil.

** Then go read about it on Google.

We fortunately don't have that disorder in our family genes.

** Your family is riddled with autistics - you are probably not the
worst.

I can only wonder why you know so much about it.

** Cos it the mental defect of "choice" among engineers, musicians and
academics.

Still it would explain your
behaviour, especially your acceptance of fantasy instead of reality, and
deficits in social interaction.

** Perfect example of a malicious, autistic, moron parroting published
material.

Psychchopaths and schizophrenics do exactly the same thing when publicly
outed.


There is no cure for autism - so David is doomed to be a fucked in the
head, public
menace - for life.

I do hope it is a very short one





............... Phil

 

[David]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 20:05:12 +1000, Phil Allison wrote:

"David"
Phil Allison


** You are acting like horse's arse.

Do you have any idea what the mental defect called "autism" is ???

Let me tell you you ARE a prize example.

There is no cure - so you are a doomed to be a fucked in the head, public
menace - for life.

I do hope it is a very short one.



No Phil.


** Then go read about it on Google.


We fortunately don't have that disorder in our family genes.


** Your family is riddled with autistics - you are probably not the
worst.


I can only wonder why you know so much about it.


** Cos it the mental defect of "choice" among engineers, musicians and
academics.



Still it would explain your
behaviour, especially your acceptance of fantasy instead of reality, and
deficits in social interaction.



** Perfect example of a malicious, autistic, moron parroting published
material.

Psychchopaths and schizophrenics do exactly the same thing when publicly
outed.


There is no cure for autism - so David is doomed to be a fucked in the
head, public
menace - for life.

Wrong yet again Phil. There is hope for you. The cause of autism - and its
cure - have been found. http://www.generationrescue.org/

Good luck Phil.

 

[Phil Allison]

"David"

The cause of autism - and its
cure - have been found. http://www.generationrescue.org/

** That is seriously insane.

You are a vile piece of work - David the Anonymous.




.............. Phil

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Wed, 27 Apr 2005 09:55:21 GMT, Glenn Pure
<glenn*delete_this_for_reply*@evans-pure.net> put finger to keyboard
and composed:

I occasionally visit an friend to use his drill press. He has been
having trouble with it for the last year or so as it has been tripping
his earth leakage protector in the fuse box. It only seems to do this
about 5% of the time, and only ever when turning the drill on (not
while it's running). The circuit breaker never trips.

How accurately can one match the A and N windings in the ELCB's
toroid? Let's assume that there is a 1mA balance error, at rated
output, due to manufacturing tolerances. When a high power device is
switched on, the inrush current may be ten times the normal operating
current, or even greater. Under these conditions, wouldn't the error
be magnified in the same proportion? For example, a 30x inrush may
result in an effective 30mA imbalance which would be enough to trip
the ELCB. Does your problem persist if you defeat the earth pin?


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Phil Allison]

"Franc Zabkar"

I occasionally visit an friend to use his drill press. He has been
having trouble with it for the last year or so as it has been tripping
his earth leakage protector in the fuse box. It only seems to do this
about 5% of the time, and only ever when turning the drill on (not
while it's running). The circuit breaker never trips.

How accurately can one match the A and N windings in the ELCB's
toroid?
Let's assume that there is a 1mA balance error, at rated
output, due to manufacturing tolerances. When a high power device is
switched on, the inrush current may be ten times the normal operating
current, or even greater. Under these conditions, wouldn't the error
be magnified in the same proportion? For example, a 30x inrush may
result in an effective 30mA imbalance which would be enough to trip
the ELCB. Does your problem persist if you defeat the earth pin?

** A home drill press will never even approach creating a 300 amp surge -
my 1/4 hp one barely makes a 3 amp one. In any case - a 300 amp peak surge,
of only one half cycle duration, will trip a domestic 20 amp breaker every
time.

In my home workshop, I have a 20 amp breaker and a portable RCD in line from
the AC outlet. The worst surges are from large ( ie 1 kVA ) toroidal power
transformers and will regularly trip the breaker but not the RCD.




.............. Phil

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Wed, 04 May 2005 12:27:15 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

There would have to a HUGE imbalance in the radiated power from the
active and neutral to trip and RCD. While the switch is arcing, the
current in active and neutral would still be the same. For a 30mA
imbalance, the active or neutral would have to radiate approx 7.2W of RF
more than the other. This is probably unlikely the prime reason for
tripping.

What is more likely is that there is a residual leakage current in the
house allready, caused by other devices (possibly with a DC bias). This
is probably just below the threshold of the RCD. When the switch is opened
the RFI is then sufficient to unbalance the RCD and trip. This could be
caused by nonlinearity etc in the RCD. This could be because the RCD is
older, and doese not have proper EMC compliance to IEC61008/9. Modern RCDs
are designed not to nuisance trip on voltage spikes, switching transients,
RFI etc.

The random nature of the events could also be caused by the residual
leakage current varying with temperature, or device usage etc.

I would suggest the OP has a qualified electrian check the wiring / RCD in
his house (including the drill) for residual leakage.

David

The author of this letter claims he has experienced nuisance tripping
as a result of off-peak control tones:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html

Any thoughts as to what is going on inside the ELCB?


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[David]

On Fri, 06 May 2005 07:31:21 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

The author of this letter claims he has experienced nuisance tripping
as a result of off-peak control tones:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html

Any thoughts as to what is going on inside the ELCB?


- Franc Zabkar

Without more details its pretty hard to guess, but if it was control
tones, then the RCD would trip out more often than just once a day, as the
control tones are sent many times a day to control various loads on the
network. They are not sent only once a day. If the RCD was sensistive to
control tones, then it should trip each time a control tone is sent, not
just on the one at 6:30am. I would suspect if only once a day, then it
would more likely be related to the load being switched by the control
tones.

A common problem is that some old fridges had 24 hour timers
in them to autodefrost. This would activate a heater, which often had
sufficent leakage to trip a RCD when cold and damp, then once on would dry
out. This would happen every 24 hours.

Changing to a different brand RCD may stop the tripping, as the
replacement one may have a slower tripping characteristic or
slightly higher tripping current etc. Also some RCD's can handle switching
surges and capacitance to ground better than others, and often include a
10ms delay before tripping (not to be confused with the S-Type, which is
delayed to allow series installation with other RCDs, and is not intended
for personal protection).


David

 

[Mike Harding]

On Fri, 06 May 2005 09:16:12 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2005 07:31:21 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:



The author of this letter claims he has experienced nuisance tripping
as a result of off-peak control tones:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html

Any thoughts as to what is going on inside the ELCB?

Without more details its pretty hard to guess,

I haven't bothered to read the link but I am sure the assertion
is correct.

For a period of around 6 (or 12? can't remember) months until
about 6 months ago my ELCB regularly tripped at 7.30am
and 10pm. Not every day, but probably 6 of the possible 14
times per week (as I write this I have a suspicion it didn't happen
at the weekends, but I'm not sure). For the past 6 months it hasn't
tripped at all. There is nothing in my house that would cause
such an issue. If that wasn't tones on the line then I'm damned
if I know what it was?

I suspect they were either doing some trials with new tones or
increased the amplitude of the original ones but finally got the
message they were causing problems.

Mike Harding

 

[David]

On Fri, 06 May 2005 19:54:31 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2005 09:16:12 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2005 07:31:21 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:



The author of this letter claims he has experienced nuisance tripping
as a result of off-peak control tones:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html

Any thoughts as to what is going on inside the ELCB?

Without more details its pretty hard to guess,

I haven't bothered to read the link but I am sure the assertion
is correct.

For a period of around 6 (or 12? can't remember) months until
about 6 months ago my ELCB regularly tripped at 7.30am
and 10pm. Not every day, but probably 6 of the possible 14
times per week (as I write this I have a suspicion it didn't happen
at the weekends, but I'm not sure). For the past 6 months it hasn't
tripped at all. There is nothing in my house that would cause
such an issue. If that wasn't tones on the line then I'm damned
if I know what it was?

I suspect they were either doing some trials with new tones or
increased the amplitude of the original ones but finally got the
message they were causing problems.

Mike Harding

Have you actually measured the leakage current seen by the RCD? If so what
is it? If not, then how can you know it is not too high and causing
problems. Also you need to isolate the neutral at the MEN point, and
megger the neutral as well.

David

 

[Mike Harding]

On Sat, 07 May 2005 14:17:37 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2005 19:54:31 +1000, Mike Harding wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2005 09:16:12 +1000, David <no_way@hotmail.com> wrote:

On Fri, 06 May 2005 07:31:21 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:



The author of this letter claims he has experienced nuisance tripping
as a result of off-peak control tones:
http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101973/article.html

Any thoughts as to what is going on inside the ELCB?

Without more details its pretty hard to guess,

I haven't bothered to read the link but I am sure the assertion
is correct.

For a period of around 6 (or 12? can't remember) months until
about 6 months ago my ELCB regularly tripped at 7.30am
and 10pm. Not every day, but probably 6 of the possible 14
times per week (as I write this I have a suspicion it didn't happen
at the weekends, but I'm not sure). For the past 6 months it hasn't
tripped at all. There is nothing in my house that would cause
such an issue. If that wasn't tones on the line then I'm damned
if I know what it was?

I suspect they were either doing some trials with new tones or
increased the amplitude of the original ones but finally got the
message they were causing problems.

Have you actually measured the leakage current seen by the RCD?

No.

If so what
is it? If not, then how can you know it is not too high and causing
problems.

You think the leakage current was regularly too high
at 7.30am and 10pm but OK at all other times and has
now stopped being too high at those times too?

Mike Harding

 

[Bazil]

Mike Harding wrote:

I haven't bothered to read the link but I am sure the assertion
is correct.

For a period of around 6 (or 12? can't remember) months until
about 6 months ago my ELCB regularly tripped at 7.30am
and 10pm. Not every day, but probably 6 of the possible 14
times per week (as I write this I have a suspicion it didn't happen
at the weekends, but I'm not sure). For the past 6 months it hasn't
tripped at all. There is nothing in my house that would cause
such an issue. If that wasn't tones on the line then I'm damned
if I know what it was?

I suspect they were either doing some trials with new tones or
increased the amplitude of the original ones but finally got the
message they were causing problems.

Could it possibly be an off peak device like hot water heater?

Bryan

 

[Phil Allison]

"Bazil"

Could it possibly be an off peak device like hot water heater?

** Electric water heaters usually have their own circuit, separate from the
RCD protected power outlets.

Like electric stoves, heaters are known to have fairly high leakage
currents.




........... Phil