Do you think splicing 100' of wire onto a GTO exit wand woul

[Elmo]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 05:43:51 -0800, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.

Once it's installed, they won't do that.

 

[Elmo]

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:

3M makes underground splice kits that may work
(used primarily for telco work).

Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here.

On the 3M web site, I found a splice kit for 3-conductor "armored" cable,
but not 4 conductor (and it was for 10-14 AWG, not 16AWG).

Here's the product information from: http://tinyurl.com/ybrgmlf
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/ProductsServices/Products/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20OES1_nid=PVQLFM5BXCbeGCC8VFQJBCgl

- 3M™ 3/C Low Voltage Splice Kit 5730, 14-10 AWG (UPC 00054007431718).
- These kits are applicable for indoor and outdoor installations,
- including direct burial, aerial and submersible applications.
- This kit requires 1 roll of 3M™ Armorcast™ Structural Material.

Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at
ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.)

 

[Elmo]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:

Oh, yeah, the technician might even believe what he told you even if
I'm right.

I think the technicians have to say what's in the manual:
http://www.gtopro.com/PDF/Manuals/GTO-Gate-Opener-Gate-Operator-Manual-pro-wand.pdf

On Page 2 of that PDF installation manual, it says:
- The Wand cable CANNOT be spliced.
- If you need more wire, contact the GTO Sales Department at 800-543-GATE.

When I called the GTO Sales Department, they said the only solution was to
buy a new exit wand with a longer feed. They said all the exit wands are
different (contrary to what the technicians told me at the support number).

 

[GregS]

In article <02dcc3e0db1796480f8c651377e7986c@tioat.net>, Elmo <dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:16:20 -0500, news@jecarter.us wrote:

Could be like the gate at a corporate site I occasionally visit - for
entry, you speak to a guard and show ID via a TV camera and the guard
opens the gate. A device like the one in this thread is used to allow
people to exit the gate.

Yes. The "typical" gate setup is:

1a. Owner approaches gate and flips remote control to get in.
1b. Utility truck approaches gate and pushed their logged 4-digit combo on
the digital keypad to get in (whether or not someone is home)
1c. Guest arrives and has to press the intercom button and can only be let
in if someone inside the house provides them access. Guest then pushes a
button on the keypad to open the gate.

2. In all cases above, the gate closes 25 seconds after it was opened.

3. In all cases above, when the owner/utility/guest leaves, the gate
automatically opens for them via the exit want magnetic field disturbance
sensor.

At least that's how my gate is set up. Some are set up to open via
cellphone but mine isn't fancy.

I am familiar with only one setup. A sewage plant. The opperator
controls gate open or close, and the pickup prevents the gate
from ramming into the vehicle.

You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,

greg

 

[Elmo]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:

If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
wraps on.

I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable here
http://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2
http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/electronics-cables/3m-82-a-series-waterproof-power-cable-splice-kits/82-a3?&seo=110

So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.

 

[blueman]

mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> writes:

If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while
streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably
waterproof blob. Hard to find though.

HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.

 

[Robert Macy]

On Feb 2, 7:34 am, Elmo <dcdraftwo...@Use-Author-Supplied-
Address.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:
If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
wraps on.

I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable herehttp://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/electronics-cables/3m-82-a-series-wate....

So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.

You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??

 

[mm]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:34:00 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 19:31:47 -0500, mm wrote:

If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
wraps on.

I did find 3M silicone tape for splicing cable here
http://tinyurl.com/ya5sob2
http://rock.thomasnet.com/item/electronics-cables/3m-82-a-series-waterproof-power-cable-splice-kits/82-a3?&seo=110

I've only used the tape. I've never used, or even seen, the kit.
Hadn't even heard of a kit with resin before.

So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.

 

[mm]

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:22 -0500, blueman <NOSPAM@nospam.com> wrote:

mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> writes:
If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape, I think it's
called, is even better than heat-shrink tubing and doesn't slip on, it
wraps on. Stretch it to 2 or 3 times its length, then wrap while
streched and within a few days it merges into one big probably
waterproof blob. Hard to find though.

HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.

It seems we are talking about -- at least that's what's included in
his kit -- "Scotch 23 High Voltage Tape"**, but when I search on that
at the Home Depot site, I get 2 hits, regular vinyl electrical tape
and packaging tape. When I search on "Scotch 23", I don't get
anything.

Now HD and Lowes have the worst webpages I've come across, so maybe
that doesn't mean anything.

The one easily visible thing I've noticed about this tape is that it
is wound on a white plastic spool, instead of a cardboard spool. It's
thick and has a backing layer that has to be removed to use a piece.

Are we talking about the same thing? Do they really have it at HD.
I looked years ago but couldnt' find it.

It's expensive. I think I paid 11 or 12 dollars a roll, but it's great
for special uses.

**Other listings for this tape call it self-fusing. That probably
refers to what I said about merging into a big blob. Other
descriptions make reference to the polyester liner, the backing layer.

But so far, I've found little reference to how it is to be applied.
Just one line "Physical and electrical properties are unaffected by
the degree of stretch." and I don't see how that is even true. OF
course if it is stretched to thee times its length and it's 2/3rds
thinner, it's going to have lower strength and electrical insulating
qualities. They even have a chart about that on page 3 of the same
data sheet.

http://www.cablejoints.co.uk/upload/3M_Scotch_23_Tape___Self_Amalgamating_Rubber_Tape.pdf

Self-amalgamating they call it here.

BTW, if you don't stretch it, it won't stick to what's underneath it.
There is no adhesive on the tape.

 

[George]

On 2/2/2010 1:30 PM, Elmo wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, GregS wrote:

You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,

I think it's the "typical" setup to have a way for guests to leave.

You have to note that I considered wiring a push-button (doorbell type)
switch in the house to open the gate for guests to leave but I can't even
see the gate from the house since it's about 500 feet down a hill to the
gate - so that would be a safety problem.

I guess I should walk everyone to the gate but that seems like a lot to ask
of me. But I think most people have the following bare minimums and common
electronics.

BARE MINIMUM ELECTRONICS:
- Keypad& remote open (with automatic close)
- Stall force setting so nobody gets crushed

EXTREMELY COMMON ELECTRONICS:
- Intercom for convenient entrance of guests
- Exit wand for automatic open upon exit

SPECIALTY ELECTRONICS:
- Telephone-operated gates (open/close from your cell phone)
- Video feeds on the gates (so you can see who is at the gate)

Or maybe you simply tell your departing guests "slow down when near the
gate and wait for it to open"?

I have been to a number of places where the gate works as I described.

 

[George]

On 2/2/2010 8:43 AM, William Sommerwerck wrote:

Why has no one paid attention to my suggestion?

Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.


Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate

they were misled.

 

[mm]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 18:37:48 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:34:56 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy wrote:

So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.

You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??

There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I
don't think the 3M product handles.

The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires
are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell
you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the
battery.

So the wires aren't individually shielded, you're saying?

So now I'm thinking just about any four conductor wire, stranded so it
will be sufficiently flexible, will be enough.

16 gauge would be nice, but I wouldnt' be too surprised if it worked
with almost any gauge. What say you, techno guys?

Is the shielding foil or woven wires? Oh, it says, braided metal
wire. Can't you solder new shielding to that>

Either way, for shielding, can't he just put the splice in some sort
of metal tube, a little longer than the splice, connected at one or
both ends to the shielding of the cable.

If they say this will work test it before you bury it. Wave the wand
over a car, at the right distance, instead of making the car drive
over it. Wait a while to see if tv or radio stations make the gate
open when no one is there. That doesn't seem very likely to me.

check if someone with a metal wheelbarrow can open the gate, but I
woudlnt' be too surprised if that would be true with a totally
standard installation . Is there no sensitivity adjustment anywhere?

Yes, there is. It's called potentiometer (pot).

It also says "IMPORTANT: When the SENSOR
is first powered up it must be undisturbed
for 60 seconds to perform
the self test and calibrations."

So, although there is a limit I'm sure to the range of whatever needs
to be calibrated, adjusted for, this means there is a range. That's
probably why they don't have to make all the cables of different
lengths the same.

It also says this:

If the SENSOR is not working:
1. Make sure the Range Adjustment is set at maximum range.
2. Disconnect the power (battery) to the SENSOR.
3. Reconnect the power to the SENSOR and make sure that no metal
object or vehicle is moving
around the SENSOR for 60 seconds while it is calibrating.
4. Test the SENSOR to verify that it is working properly.
5. Check that push/pull DIP switches on Control Board are set
correctly.

The 4-conductor plus 1 shield wiring instructions are listed in this PDF.
http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manuals/FM138-Mighty-Mule-Wired-Exit-Sensor.pdf

In hind sight, I should have gone wireless. That way I could have put the
sensor anywhere I like.

 

[Elmo]

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, GregS wrote:

You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,

I think it's the "typical" setup to have a way for guests to leave.

You have to note that I considered wiring a push-button (doorbell type)
switch in the house to open the gate for guests to leave but I can't even
see the gate from the house since it's about 500 feet down a hill to the
gate - so that would be a safety problem.

I guess I should walk everyone to the gate but that seems like a lot to ask
of me. But I think most people have the following bare minimums and common
electronics.

BARE MINIMUM ELECTRONICS:
- Keypad & remote open (with automatic close)
- Stall force setting so nobody gets crushed

EXTREMELY COMMON ELECTRONICS:
- Intercom for convenient entrance of guests
- Exit wand for automatic open upon exit

SPECIALTY ELECTRONICS:
- Telephone-operated gates (open/close from your cell phone)
- Video feeds on the gates (so you can see who is at the gate)

 

[mm]

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 16:33:19 GMT, zekfrivo@zekfrivolous.com (GregS)
wrote:

In article <02dcc3e0db1796480f8c651377e7986c@tioat.net>, Elmo <dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:
On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 20:16:20 -0500, news@jecarter.us wrote:

Could be like the gate at a corporate site I occasionally visit - for
entry, you speak to a guard and show ID via a TV camera and the guard
opens the gate. A device like the one in this thread is used to allow
people to exit the gate.

Yes. The "typical" gate setup is:

1a. Owner approaches gate and flips remote control to get in.
1b. Utility truck approaches gate and pushed their logged 4-digit combo on
the digital keypad to get in (whether or not someone is home)
1c. Guest arrives and has to press the intercom button and can only be let
in if someone inside the house provides them access. Guest then pushes a
button on the keypad to open the gate.

2. In all cases above, the gate closes 25 seconds after it was opened.

3. In all cases above, when the owner/utility/guest leaves, the gate
automatically opens for them via the exit want magnetic field disturbance
sensor.

At least that's how my gate is set up. Some are set up to open via
cellphone but mine isn't fancy.

I am familiar with only one setup. A sewage plant. The opperator

Mine is similar to the one you know. It is residential, but guests
have to bring some sewage to get in.

controls gate open or close, and the pickup prevents the gate
from ramming into the vehicle.

You must have many guests and visitors to warrent this setup you have,

greg

 

[mm]

On Mon, 01 Feb 2010 23:08:04 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

Researching the web, it appears GTO sells three wands:
http://www.gtopro.com/access_controls.htm
- FM139 = 50 feet wired (about $180)
- FM140 = 100 feet wired (about $200)
- FM141 = 150 feet wired (about $225)

When I read the 50 foot price, I thought it was 100 dollars, not 180.

I thought 125 for another 100 feet was much too much, but it's only a
45 dollar difference.

 

[Elmo]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 08:34:56 -0800 (PST), Robert Macy wrote:

So now the problem just is finding the 4-conductor 16AWG shielded cable and
the 3M splice kit in a store somewhere around here.

You originally said 5 conductor, now you say 4 conductor. ??

There are actually 5 connections, but one of them is the shield which I
don't think the 3M product handles.

The 5 connections are at the gate control box but only 4 insulated wires
are inside the wire. The installation instructions for the exit wand tell
you to twist the end of the fifth shield together and wire nut it to the
battery.

The 4-conductor plus 1 shield wiring instructions are listed in this PDF.
http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manuals/FM138-Mighty-Mule-Wired-Exit-Sensor.pdf

In hind sight, I should have gone wireless. That way I could have put the
sensor anywhere I like.

 

[Elmo]

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 12:14:22 -0500, blueman wrote:

mm <NOPSAMmm2005@bigfoot.com> writes:
If you're burying it when you're done, silicone tape

HD has it in several locations in our local stores (plumbing and maybe also
electrical areas) - may be hard to find cuz most people don't know about it.

I'll go to Home Depot today and let us know what I find.

In hind sight, I should have bought the WIRELESS vehicle exit sensor setup!
http://www.mightymule.com/PDF/Manuals/FM130-Wireless-Exit-Sensor.pdf

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Get the manufacturer to give you full credit towards a longer cable.

Why? They OP decided to buy the particular length and didn't indicate
they were misled.

True. But the cabling is not horribly expensive. The company should do this
out of "common courtesy".

 

[mm]

Be sure to let us know how this turns out. You owe us.

More below.

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:07:32 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:

just make sure your splice is absolutely waterproof.
3M makes underground splice kits that may work

I have to find the 4-wire multi-stranded shielded cable first ... but I
will try the splice kit at the same time if I can find that also.

This morning I called GTO technical support again at 800-543-1236 and spoke
this time with a woman with a southern accent who told me a splice could be
done, but she said the problem is that it will eventually break. And, since

No, it won't. Not if it's soldered correctly. Have you soldered
much? Do you know how to solder well, to clean the wire first -- I
just scrape four sides of the wire with a fairly sharp knife --, use
flux core solder designed for electrical work, and make it hot enough
to not get a cold solder joint?

it will be underground, I won't know where it is and I'll be calling

Of course you'll know where it is. It will be 50 feet from where you
buried the wand. And about 100 feet from where the controller is.
Note how far from the driveway you bury it and measure how far from
thecontroller it is, and write it down and tape it to the controller
box.

technical support who won't know that it was spliced while they
troubleshoot.

The next owner might well be in that situation. Make sure you leave
clear documentation for him. The guy who sold me my house spent an
hour teling me things about it.

When I asked "but CAN it be spliced?", she confirmed there is no difference
in the wand itself between the longer lengths of wire as the sensitivity
adjustments are done on the gate control board itself.

As I thought in some other post of mine.

I'll look for that 3M waterproof splice kit. I think I'll need a
low-voltage splice kit.

Anything that works for high voltages works for low voltages. I'm not
sure what the advantage of the kit is. Certainly if I couldn't find
the kit, I'd just wrap the self-fusing tape around the wire, going an
inch or more past the splice, past the part where the original
insulation is still intact.


My neighbor had some semi-skilled guys putting in a small fence and
they cut my phone line. Of course they "took repsonsibilty" and they
were winding the wires together and taping them with standard electric
tape. I came out and stopped them, and soldered the connections and
wrapped them in this self-fusing tape, and even when I had dial-up
internet, I got very good connection speeds.

Later, someone told me I should let the phone company repair it and
indeed they would do it for free, but the guy on the phone said all
they do is use those gel-filled connectors and what I did was better.
Nothing beats solder, and no tape beats Scotch 23.

Now, if you don't have an connector on the end of the wire, you could
use heat-shrink tubing, but though it looks real nice, it doesn't have
much tension when shrinking or afterwareds, and I think the scotch 23,
silicone tape will do a much better job.

According to this web site, the voltage is 8 to 32
VAC or 8 to 26 VDC with a miniscule current of 1.5ma.
http://www.allsecurityequipment.com/proddetail.asp?prod=GTO-FM141

BTW, are you near powerlines? Most places aren't but a few are.

 

[mm]

On Tue, 2 Feb 2010 15:26:21 +0000 (UTC), Elmo
<dcdraftworks@Use-Author-Supplied-Address.invalid> wrote:

On Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:39:31 -0500, PeterD wrote:

3M makes underground splice kits that may work
(used primarily for telco work).

Great idea! If it works for the telephone company, it should work here.

No. Soldering is better. The phone company doesn't want to spend the
time it takes to solder each connection, up to hundreds a day, and it
has a staff to go fix problems when they develop, as well as
electronic tools to find the break in a wire, by injecting a signal at
one end if necessary.

And if you plan to use the gel connectors they use, that might require
practice too to learn to do them right, and maybe also a special pair
of pliers. I'm not sure, but I know you've never done it before.

On the 3M web site, I found a splice kit for 3-conductor "armored" cable,
but not 4 conductor (and it was for 10-14 AWG, not 16AWG).

Here's the product information from: http://tinyurl.com/ybrgmlf
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/3M/en_US/3MElectrical/Home/ProductsServices/Products/?PC_7_RJH9U5230GE3E02LECIE20OES1_nid=PVQLFM5BXCbeGCC8VFQJBCgl

- 3M™ 3/C Low Voltage Splice Kit 5730, 14-10 AWG (UPC 00054007431718).
- These kits are applicable for indoor and outdoor installations,
- including direct burial, aerial and submersible applications.
- This kit requires 1 roll of 3M™ Armorcast™ Structural Material.

I don't know what "3M™ Armorcast™ Structural Material" is, but it's
not for you. You also don't have armored cable.

Do you think I can find a 4-conductor shielded 16 AWG cable splice kit at
ACE, OSH, or Home Depot? (I'll try later today.)

I've never heard of a kit being designed for a certain number of
conductors, unless maybe they're talking about some special way to
splice all 3 conductors at the same time. There's no need to do that.
For one thing, you'd need some machine costing thousands to solder
more than one connection at the same time, and any other kind of
connection is inferior. Just solder and tape each connection
yourself, one at a time. By offsetting the splices, as I and one of
the links you gave suggested, you won't have to wrap insulation around
each separate solder joint. Just make sure that neither the soldered
area or any of the bared wire is at the same position as any bare
portion of any conductor. And make sure there are no sharp points in
the solder of any conection. They could pierce the insulation. I
think they only result when the solder isn't hot enough, (or maybe
when there wasn't enough flux???). At any rate, you probably won't
have that, or you can reheat, or cut them off with wire cutters, or
wrap them separately with enough layers so it can't pierce through.

Then just wrap the whole thing at one time. If it turns out that two
of the uninsulated parts could touch each other, wrap one of them
seaparately first.

You're making this too complicated, partly because of what they told
you when you first called. You need a soldering iron, solder, and
tape, not a kit.


BTW, when some of these sites talk about low voltage, they're talking
about 110 volts and 220 volts, as opposed to 10,000 volts, which is
high voltage. They're talking about currents in the range of 10 or 20
amps or more. No, much more. Look at the wire gauges they deal with
in the link you provide above. 14 to 10AWG, 8-4AWG, 2-1/0, 2-0. 14
gauge will carry 15 amps, 10 gauge will carry at least 25 amps. 8
gauge at least 30 amps (probably more but I don't recall) 2 gauge must
carry 100 amps and zero gauge even more. Imagine how big those wires
are. That's what these kits are for, not for little wires carrying
tiny currents, like a few thousandths of an amp.

You otoh are dealing with much lower voltalge and much lower currents,
and much lower maximum currents also. You can't even feel 12 volts
and maybe you can barely feel a tingle with 24 volts, but I don't
think so.