Designing The Perfect Coil?

[Chiron]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 11:50:52 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

Before you invest a whole lot of time and energy into this project, you
might want to do some research into the topic, which is currently under
intense investigation.  The technique is called "transcranial magnetic
stimulation," or TMS.

I already did the research--

http://www.elfis.net/elfol8/e8elfeeg2.htm


which is why I want an effective coil whose impedance matches the
amplifier though maybe I might just do what th author did and screw the
math...

Ron

I don't think you would have too many problems by ignoring the math in

this case. I think that if you're concerned about the *efficient*
transfer of power between the circuit and the coil, it matters. Since it
appears that you don't have such a concern, you probably aren't going to
lose too much. Also, what you're investigating may not follow the math
anyway, if it's some unknown phenomenon.

Of course, if you get some sort of an effect, your results will be less
useful since you won't be able to quantify them. If you're just
experimenting to see whether there's any effect at all, this won't be too
important.

The reason I mentioned TMS was because of the intensity of the fields
used. Your experiments appear to be working with very low-intensity
magnetic fields. The page you cited says 100 nT. TMS uses fields of 1-3
teslas, or 1-10 million times that. The frequencies TMS uses are often
in the kHz range, but they also have tried very low frequencies as well.
There have been some effects, but they were subtle. For example, check
out:

Sallustio, F., S. Di Legge, B. Rizzato, P. Stanzione, and G. Koch.
“Changes in Cerebrovascular Reactivity Following Low-frequency Repetitive
Transcranial Magnetic Stimulation.” Journal of the Neurological Sciences
295, no. 1–2 (2010): 58–61.

Google for more of the same...

So my point was basically that if you don't get major effects at a field
intensity of a tesla or two, the effects you'd get at a millionth of that
intensity would likely be even less noticeable. Or conversely, if there
*were* effects at 100 nT, then you'd expect for these effects to be
severe at a full tesla - which isn't observed.

This comment doesn't *prove* anything, of course. Maybe there is some
sort of effect that doesn't scale along with the stimulus. Still, that is
one of the cardinal signs of "pathological science" as mentioned by
Langmuir, as I pointed out in a separate post.


--
Your mileage may vary.

 

[Chiron]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 15:44:52 -0700, Winston wrote:

talking about the endless Websites claiming to have discovered
brand-new physics, perpetual motion, free energy, and so on.

? What do any of these things have to do with brainwave
entrainment via an electromagnetic field?

Nothing. However, these topics and "brainwave entrainment via an
electromagnetic field" fall into a common category which could be at the
most charitably characterized as "non-mainstream science" - but which I
tend to view as bullshit. It's not that I reject the possibility that
there remain undiscovered forces, energies, and other phenomena. It's
that 99.9% of the information about such alleged phenomena is crap -
vague, pseudo-scientific jargon claiming to explain things that no one
has observed, endless tirades about how the hidebound scientific
community refuses to listen to the lone inventor, a voice crying in the
wilderness, or how Big Oil or Big Government or the Military is trying to
suppress the discoveries, and yadda-yadda-yadda. There is no lack of
information on all these topics. What is missing is evidence that the
phenomena actually happen.

Oh, yeah. Another favorite is for people to claim that they don't need
math to understand science. The fact is, yes, they do need it. There is
precious little science that can be understood in any detail without math.

If there are some real phenomena that really are happening, they're
completely lost amongst all the noise.

I meant articles
about research done following such things as the double-blind protocol,
accurate measurements, that sort of thing.

I really do suggest you read further. I'm not going to create a
bibliography for you.

You don't actually know what I've read, so your suggestion is based

either on ignorance or arrogance. If you object to double-blind
experiments, quantifying of stimuli and effects, basic physical laws, and
so on, then I can't help you.

By refusing to offer even a single reference, you are protecting yourself
from any possibility of being shown to be wrong. No matter how many
sources I read, you will always be able to claim I didn't read the one
source that would confirm your view. No thanks. I'll stick with
physics, math, engineering, evidence, and plain, old common sense.

<snip>

I think perhaps you do not understand the subject matter. For one
thing, what we're discussing *is* electromagnetic. That's what you get
when you pass a current through a coil - an electromagnetic field.
AFAIK, if you get the electro part, you automatically get the magnetic
part; and vice versa.

Good, we agree that we are talking largely about the same effect,
brought about using different tools.

No, actually we aren't talking about the same thing at all. You're

talking about power or radiant flux. I'm talking about magnetic flux
density. You're talking about the projection of ELF signals on a
microwave carrier, transmitted over considerable distances. You're
talking about the energies that may be imparted to the brain as a result
of these alleged signals. Neither the OP nor I ever mentioned any of
these things.

I'm not sure where you get the values in W/m^2, but you're comparing
apples and oranges.

Suggest you look at the patents I cited, particularly US 2007/0249959
A1.

Any asshole with a confusing paper and a few thousand bucks can get a
patent. That doesn't mean the patent has anything whatsoever to do with
science. I don't need to refer to a patent to know that W/m^2 don't
compare with teslas.

You're talking W/m^2, which has nothing to do with anything I was
referring to. You're talking about some obscure and discredited research
that has nothing to do with what the OP mentioned, to which I was
responding.

If you intended to discuss Wb/m^2, then you're talking about teslas; but
now you're talking about a hundred teslas, which is not used in any
medical situation of which I am aware.

As any physics teacher will drum into your head, the units have to
match. Finally, no mention was made by the OP of any carrier.

The OP mentioned the use of close-coupled electromagnets in the extreme
near field. Ya don't need no carrier under those circs. Heck, you don't
even need magnets of any sort if you can put electrodes into the
customer's brain.

This is pure bullshit. You're trying to apply research that (supposedly)
deals with microwave radiation to a situation where there is no microwave
radiation. Not surprisingly, this doesn't work. Your comments are
mostly inapplicable to the discussion at hand.

And sure, if you can stick electrodes into someone's brain, you probably
already control him enough anyway. I would not be surprised to find that
when you stick *anything* into someone's brain, bad things can happen.
But again - not what the discussion was about.

Unless the customer is unconscious, he's got nothing to fear from an
almost pure magnetic field because he can step out of the way before
someone clamps a helmet on him.

If you're talking about permanent magnets, they don't oscillate.

Otherwise, there isn't anything like an "almost pure" magnetic field.
It's electromagnetic, regardless of what frequency or wavelength it is -
from nearly DC to ultra-hard gamma rays and everything in between.

Microwaves? Not so much. They are very 'equal opportunity' and are used
at much further distances.

Maybe so; but as I said, the OP wasn't discussing microwaves. He made no

mention of them, nor did I. You're the only one trying to bring them
into the discussion, and they really have no place there. Maybe you
should start a thread about them, if you want to discuss them.

The OP was talking about intensities in the nanotesla range
(abbreviated nT). Actually, Dr. Pirsinger (the "God" helmet) was using
intensities of around a thousand times that - microteslas. Even so,
the point still stands. If you're getting a response at this
intensity, then increasing the intensity a million-fold is likely to be
overwhelming. This is not seen in practice.

It is not *discussed* in practice.

Let me guess: There's a widespread, sinister conspiracy of silence

surrounding this research, because [the government | the terrorists | the
Illuminati | the aliens | the drug cartels | the oil cartels | whoever ]
are using it to further their nefarious ends, which generally involve
total world domination or destroying humanity or some such. Innovative
scientists lose funding or are discredited. Persistent researchers
disappear, or die in mysterious "accidents." Entire editions of
publications discussing the research vanish or become "classified." All
sorts of insider information comes to light, but it is always anonymous,
so as to prevent "them" from seeking revenge. Did I miss anything?

It is not *seen* in practice. There is no credible source that claims
there is a million-fold increase in subtle EEG effects when a person is
subjected to a 1 T field. There is a considerable body of knowledge that
clearly shows that patients who undergo TMS or MRI treatments do not
experience anything untoward (barring, as I said, the presence of metal
in the body).

they'd be thoroughly overwhelmed by a tesla or two, if not
actually injured.

It doesn't take nearly as much as that to put someone on the ground or
deny them use of their muscles.

It doesn't happen. People are routinely subjected to electromagnetic
fields of this intensity during MRI's. Unless they've got metal in
their bodies, they're just fine. I am not aware of any *credible*
studies that show anyone gets harmed by exposure to electromagnetic
fields of this intensity. If you are, then I suggest you cite to them
rather than telling me to "read further."

The most dangerous stimulation is electromagnetic, done via microwave
carrier, not purely magnetic. See Dr. Ross Adey's work, for example.
Also patents 3973290, 5675103, US 2007/0249959 A1

All well and good, but the OP was talking about a frequency of around 7
Hz. That's not microwaves. He said nothing about ELF modulation of a
microwave carrier, which in any case wouldn't be feasible with the
components he listed. Neither the XR2206 nor the LM386 is capable of
working at such high frequencies. IIRC, the XR2206 works up to 1 or 2
MHz. The LM386 is an audio amplifier.

One needs to amplitude-modulate the microwaves at specific low
frequencies to get the necessary entrainment.

Yes, I'm familiar with AM transmission, carrier waves, all that good

stuff. I understood that you were talking about that. Apparently you
still don't understand that you're the only one who *is* talking about
that; neither the OP nor I mentioned it.

The OP does not need that technique. He's using electromagnets on a
volunteer, presumably with a signed consent form and participation of
professional medical folks. Others have done it by implanting electrodes
into the customers head.

No doubt. Still, the point stands. No microwaves were hurt during this

experiment, nor were any used (nor were any contemplated by the OP).

http://bipolarnews.org/?tag=deep-brain-stimulation

If your customers have not signed a consent form, you have to bombard
them with modulated microwaves if you want the desired effect.

Umm... if they haven't signed a consent form, and you still want to

bombard them, that suggests that they're not the real customer, no?
Unless you're talking about involuntary psych patients, and even there
AFAIK the patient has the right to refuse treatment.

Despite repeated efforts, Dr. Adey's work has not been confirmed by
other scientists. At most there are a few studies that seemed to
suggest that there might possibly be *some* effect from low-intensity
microwave exposure. However, most studies failed to duplicate Adey's
results.

Cite?

"I really do suggest you read further. I'm not going to create a

bibliography for you." Sound familiar? Just keep reading. I'll tell
you when you've read enough.

Dr. Adey's work follows some of the classical signs of pathological
science, as laid out by Dr. Irving Langmuir. I highly recommend Dr.
Langmuir's lecture (Google "Pathological science" to find various
transcripts of it).

But of course, as I said, the OP wasn't talking about modulating a
microwave carrier, or anything remotely like that. He was talking
about using an ELF sine wave to energize a simple coil.

Now you understand why the OP was talking about 'pop guns' and Ross Adey
was talking about 'shot guns'. Don't concern yourself too much about
the kid with a spitwad if the guy behind him is aiming a Mossberg at
your head.

I don't recall the OP ever talking about pop-guns... must have missed it.

There is no credible evidence that there is any sort of spitwad, much
less a Mossberg. Unless your only sources of information are Websites
like Above Top Secret (http://www.abovetopsecret.com/). In that case,
get out your aluminum foil and start making hats. Lots and lots of hats.

But I recommend copper foil, now that I think of it. It's very difficult
to solder to aluminum, and you'll want to be grounding your foil hats.
Just thought I'd mention it...

--
Pyros of the world... IGNITE !!!

 

[Chiron]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:48:30 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

hat might be a project for another day. Theoretically, .E.E. "Doc"
Smith's "mechanical educator" is feasible, but it wouldn't work the way
it does in the Skylark books-- you might be able to transfr the
equivalent of thoughts, but not a whole language in thirty seconds. That
would require microwaves--- at 166 GHz if the reearch is right. Not
nearly as cheap a project as this one.

Just wondering - wouldn't that kind of frequency tend to cook the
brains? I wouldn't even know how to begin making an oscillator that
could run at such a speed...

I don't know whether it will ever be possible to transfer thoughts, as I
understand the word. If anything, I would expect that it would be more
likely for emotions to be transferred - something without words, anyway.
Hunches, intuitions, feelings, that sort of thing.

My guess is that in order to learn, you have to rewire the brain, and
that this would require time for the cells to move and grow, to form and
break connections. Something tells me there's no easy way to acquire
learning. OTOH, it's never a good idea to claim that something is
impossible, because people have an annoying habit of then going out and
doing whatever it was you said couldn't be done.

I remember reading an intriguing science fiction story that was done as a
sort of "review" of "mind tapes" (or whatever). Recorded thoughts/
feelings/etc. No clue who wrote it, but the idea has always fascinated
me.

BTW, your post here has inspired me to do some experimenting of my own
with this stuff (low-frequency electromagnetic fields around the head and
body). No microwaves... I'll be glad to share anything I learn with you.

--
Just because everything is different doesn't mean anything has changed.
-- Irene Peter

 

[Ron Hubbard]

But of course, as I said, the OP wasn't talking about modulating a
microwave carrier, or anything remotely like that. He was talking about
using an ELF sine wave to energize a simple coil.

That might be a project for another day. Theoretically, .E.E. "Doc"
Smith's "mechanical educator" is feasible, but it wouldn't work the
way it does in the Skylark books-- you might be able to transfr the
equivalent of thoughts, but not a whole language in thirty seconds.
That would require microwaves--- at 166 GHz if the reearch is right.
Not nearly as cheap a project as this one.

Ron


______________

"There are special people in this world. We don't ask to be special.
We're just born this way. We pass you on the streets every day,
unnoticed by most. "

-- Cassie Holmes (Push) --

 

[Chiron]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:09:20 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

<snip>

I should have qualified my statement to read, "From what I've read in
*credible* sources..."  Sorry if I didn't make this clear.  I wasn't
talking about the endless Websites claiming to have discovered
brand-new physics, perpetual motion, free energy, and so on.

?  What do any of these things have to do with brainwave
    entrainment via an electromagnetic field?


If you want to altr your brainwaves, entrain them, to get rid of ADD or
develop telekinesis or learn remote viewing, whatever, there are only a
few limited ways of going about it: 1) biofeedback, 2) binaural beats,
3) photo-entrainment with a strobe light, and magnetic entrainment-- the
project I'm working on now.

Biofeedback is slow (and costly).

There's an article which shows that binaural beats are ineffective
despite all the products out there. They also don't work on everybody
(they don't do **** for me).

Photo-entrainment is unpredictable; the reason why all of those light &
sound devices produc so little results is that LEDs are so weak as to be
useless. One would need a good medical strobe like the kind used in eeg
tests and even then the results can be variable,

Magnetic entrainment shows a lot of promise: it uses a magnetic field to
get the brain to lock onto a particular frequency and has the advantage
that the technique requires very little equipment that costs only a few
bucks.

Oh, and of course there's also yoga & meditation-- if one has a few
years to spare.

Ron

I think that *all* of these techniques are either ineffective, or highly
variable. My suspicion is that each of these techniques has a group of
people who may benefit from them, but that no technique is effective to
everyone or even a majority of people. That could be why experiments
have been so inconclusive... So some folks do seem to respond to
binaural beats. I know people who swear by them. They never did
anything for me, though. I can't say that this wasn't some sort of
placebo effect, but... isn't the placebo effect something worthwhile? If
there's no objective way to evaluate a situation, is there a difference
between feeling good, and just thinking you feel good? If you've got a
physical illness that can be demonstrated objectively, maybe there is.
If a tumor is growing, thinking you're better might be fatal if it causes
you to skip other treatment for it. But when it comes to the mind,
things are not so certain.

You might reconsider the light experiments. There are all kinds of LED's
out there now. I was researching something and came across information
suggesting that the wavelength of light was important. If memory serves
(it might not) I think something like 450 nm or so - blue light. There
are now high-intensity, blue LED's available for not much money.

But I do like the idea of playing around with low-frequency, low-
intensity EM fields. Sounds like it might have interesting results,
without being very risky.

--
Nothing is ever a total loss; it can always serve as a bad example.

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 5, 3:44 pm, Winston <Wins...@Bigbrother.net> wrote:

Chiron wrote:
On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 06:07:27 -0700, Winston wrote:

Ron Hubbard wrote:
On Apr 2, 9:55 pm, Chiron
chiron613.no.sp...@no.spam.please.gmail.com>   wrote:

(...)

   From what I've read, low-intensity field have almost no discernible
effect.

Suggest read further, then.  

Suggest you do so as well.

The fact that I disagree does not mean that I haven't read.  Perhaps I
should have qualified my statement to read, "From what I've read in
*credible* sources..."  Sorry if I didn't make this clear.  I wasn't
talking about the endless Websites claiming to have discovered brand-new
physics, perpetual motion, free energy, and so on.

?  What do any of these things have to do with brainwave
    entrainment via an electromagnetic field?

If you want to altr your brainwaves, entrain them, to get rid of ADD
or develop telekinesis or learn remote viewing, whatever, there are
only a few limited ways of going about it: 1) biofeedback, 2) binaural
beats, 3) photo-entrainment with a strobe light, and magnetic
entrainment-- the project I'm working on now.

Biofeedback is slow (and costly).

There's an article which shows that binaural beats are ineffective
despite all the products out there. They also don't work on everybody
(they don't do **** for me).

Photo-entrainment is unpredictable; the reason why all of those light
& sound devices produc so little results is that LEDs are so weak as
to be useless. One would need a good medical strobe like the kind used
in eeg tests and even then the results can be variable,

Magnetic entrainment shows a lot of promise: it uses a magnetic field
to get the brain to lock onto a particular frequency and has the
advantage that the technique requires very little equipment that costs
only a few bucks.

Oh, and of course there's also yoga & meditation-- if one has a few
years to spare.

Ron


_____________

“Space having four dimensions. Psiontists working through that fourth
dimension. Subspace itself-- why not many spaces existing in subspace?
Perhaps an infinite number of spaces with subspace a separating yet a
containing medium? He groped for an analogy-- found none. But the
staggering thought seemed strangely logical.”

–– E.E. “Doc” Smith (Subspace Encounters) ––

 

[Chiron]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:05:06 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

<snip>

Just wondering - wouldn't that kind of frequency tend to cook the
brains?


Smith's educator was said to transfer visual images because his
characters found the frequency of cerebrin-- "a cerebroside peculiar to
the thinking structure of the brain" which was supposedly opaque to a
particular frequency and that it was a microwave frequency. Oddly
enough, some years ago I came across an article mentioning that people
exposed to 166 Ghz "saw" visual images. It need not be a powerful source
of microwaves; nothing dangerous.

True, but I'm kind of leery about exposing myself to high-frequency
signals, even if they're very weak. It doesn't seem that we know enough
about the effects - and reassurances that they're "harmless" are
meaningless. Scientists have been saying that for hundreds of years, all
the while frying brains and causing cancer and such. My attitude is, let
someone else be the beta-tester...

I wouldn't even know how to begin making an oscillator that could run
at such a speed...


When I first got the idea I asked around and found that a klystron tube
could be made to work at 166 GHz-- if I wantd to pay a shitload of money
for it. That was twenty years ago.

I wonder what frequencies a microwave oven uses... of course, that's
around 1 kW, which would be way too strong.

Also, I think at that frequency, the wavelengths you're talking about are
small enough to screw up the usual equations for reactance and such. In
fact, as I understand it, much attention needs to be given to the lengths
of signal paths, parasitic capacitance, and all sorts of other
complications.

I don't know whether it will ever be possible to transfer thoughts, as
I understand the word.


People have been working on "electronic telepathy" for years with
varying degrees of success as well as using EEG hook-ups to the brain as
snip
*in theory* electrical brainwave activity could represent a thought-- If
I saw an ugly looking girl and thought she had a face like five miles of
bad road, and if I was telepathic, she might recieve that thought as
words in her head. So is thought something different and independent
from electrical activity? I don't know for sure and as far as I know,
nobody has ever connected one person to another via an EEG arangement.

Well, don't think thoughts like that. Uglier than the backside of a
wombat... But what if she's really pretty?

I'm not sure what you mean by connecting people via EEG arrangement. Do
you mean, connecting similar locations to each (right forehead to right
forehead, etc.)? Would you amplify the signals first?

I would assume that since the EEG signals are taken through the skull,
they are probably highly distorted from what they might be at the surface
of the brain. Also, you're getting signals from fairly wide regions of
the brain, whereas I'm sure thoughts would be coming from smaller
regions. I doubt there would be any specificity, for this reason.

But maybe some day, given enough research and technological progress,
they'll be able to do something... maybe by using a whole lot of
electrodes, running them through a massive supercomputer to analyze the
signals, etc., then transmitting them. Who knows?

I could see a potential for serious misuse, but also to help people -
say, those who are quadriplegic, who can't otherwise communicate. Maybe
even help people who have psychological disorders.

But like I said, it's theoretically feasible; a lot of things that are
around now began as silly sci-fi concepts in somebody's brain and / or a
book, or TV show or a movie-- until somone tries to turn it into a
reality, sooner or later...

See, this is the kind of stuff I love to investigate. What *is* thought

- is it just electrical signals, or is there some other component to it?
We don't know squat about it. The current assumption is that the "mind"
is an epiphenomenon of the physical brain, but... there's nothing to
confirm that.

I remember reading a sci-fi story by Asimov (maybe in the Foundation
trilogy?) where the hero is talking about math. He whips out a hand-held
computer and shows the calculus to whoever he's talking to. I got really
annoyed with Asimov for coming up with such a stupid idea, like this
could ever happen. For crying out loud, I know sci-fi is fiction, but it
should at least be plausible. Blah, blah, blah.

So, OK, now I have one of those computers, called a programmable
scientific calculator. My apologies to Dr. Asimov. Experiences like
these make me reluctant to say that something just can't happen.

A whole lot of sci-fi is now old news, stuff we take for granted. Lasers
and space travel, heart transplants, home computers, cell phones...

And you know, I have to tell you. I remember when lasers were first
developed, articles all talking about death rays and blasters and stuff.
NO ONE imagined what most lasers would be used for - which was, amusing
cats with the little red dots.

_______________

“Data, something is only impossible until it is not!”

–– Jean- Luc Picard ––

Great sig.



--
Love is the only game that is not called on account of darkness.
-- M. Hirschfield

 

[Chiron]

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:05:06 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

electrical activity? I don't know for sure and as far as I know, nobody
has ever connected one person to another via an EEG arangement.

Oh, I just had another thought... if you *did* amplify the signals, and
if each brain was responsive to what the other was thinking, you'd
(apparently) get a positive feedback effect. A thinks of X; B receives
that, so he also thinks of X; which gets transmitted back to A,
reinforcing his original idea of X; and so on. I wonder where that would
all go...

But now I'm going to try to get some sleep. Not likely, with all these
ideas floating around. Oh, well...

--
Now I'm concentrating on a specific tank battle toward the end of World
War II!

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 5, 6:33 pm, Chiron
<chiron613.no.sp...@no.spam.please.gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 17:48:30 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:
hat might be a project for another day. Theoretically, .E.E. "Doc"
Smith's "mechanical educator" is feasible, but it wouldn't work the way
it does in the Skylark books-- you might be able to transfr the
equivalent of thoughts, but not a whole language in thirty seconds. That
would require microwaves--- at 166 GHz if the reearch is right. Not
nearly as cheap a project as this one.

Just wondering - wouldn't that kind of frequency tend to cook the
brains?

Smith's educator was said to transfer visual images because his
characters found the frequency of cerebrin-- "a cerebroside peculiar
to the thinking structure of the brain" which was supposedly opaque
to a particular frequency and that it was a microwave frequency. Oddly
enough, some years ago I came across an article mentioning that people
exposed to 166 Ghz "saw" visual images. It need not be a powerful
source of microwaves; nothing dangerous.

I wouldn't even know how to begin making an oscillator that
could run at such a speed...

When I first got the idea I asked around and found that a klystron
tube could be made to work at 166 GHz-- if I wantd to pay a shitload
of money for it. That was twenty years ago.

I don't know whether it will ever be possible to transfer thoughts, as I
understand the word.

People have been working on "electronic telepathy" for years with
varying degrees of success as well as using EEG hook-ups to the brain
as a hands-free control interface such as in jet fighters also with
some success. Ever play the game Mindflex? Think "up" enough times and
the fan comes on and the little ball goes up; think "down" and the fan
cuts off so the ball falls. Not exactly real TK, but fun nonetheless.
Anyway, *in theory* electrical brainwave activity could represent a
thought-- If I saw an ugly looking girl and thought she had a face
like five miles of bad road, and if I was telepathic, she might
recieve that thought as words in her head. So is thought something
different and independent from electrical activity? I don't know for
sure and as far as I know, nobody has ever connected one person to
another via an EEG arangement.

But like I said, it's theoretically feasible; a lot of things that are
around now began as silly sci-fi concepts in somebody's brain and / or
a book, or TV show or a movie-- until somone tries to turn it into a
reality, sooner or later...


Ron




_______________

“Data, something is only impossible until it is not!”

–– Jean- Luc Picard ––

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 5, 9:54 pm, Chiron
<chiron613.no.sp...@no.spam.please.gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:05:06 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

snip



Just wondering - wouldn't that kind of frequency tend to cook the
brains?

Smith's educator was said to transfer visual images because his
characters found the frequency of cerebrin-- "a cerebroside peculiar to
the thinking structure of the brain"  which was supposedly opaque to a
particular frequency and that it was a microwave frequency. Oddly
enough, some years ago I came across an article mentioning that people
exposed to 166 Ghz "saw" visual images. It need not be a powerful source
of microwaves; nothing dangerous.

True, but I'm kind of leery about exposing myself to high-frequency
signals, even if they're very weak.  It doesn't seem that we know enough
about the effects - and reassurances that they're "harmless" are
meaningless.  Scientists have been saying that for hundreds of years, all
the while frying brains and causing cancer and such.  My attitude is, let
someone else be the beta-tester...



I wouldn't even know how to begin making an oscillator that could run
at such a speed...

When I first got the idea I asked around and found that a klystron tube
could be made to work at 166 GHz-- if I wantd to pay a shitload of money
for it. That was twenty years ago.

I wonder what frequencies a microwave oven uses... of course, that's
around 1 kW, which would be way too strong.

Also, I think at that frequency, the wavelengths you're talking about are
small enough to screw up the usual equations for reactance and such.  In
fact, as I understand it, much attention needs to be given to the lengths
of signal paths, parasitic capacitance, and all sorts of other
complications.





I don't know whether it will ever be possible to transfer thoughts, as
I understand the word.

People have been working on "electronic telepathy" for years with
varying degrees of success as well as using EEG hook-ups to the brain as
snip
*in theory* electrical brainwave activity could represent a thought-- If
I saw an ugly looking girl and thought she had a face like five miles of
bad road, and if I was telepathic, she might recieve that thought as
words in her head. So is thought something different and independent
from electrical activity? I don't know for sure and as far as I know,
nobody has ever connected one person to another via an EEG arangement.

Well, don't think thoughts like that.  Uglier than the backside of a
wombat...  But what if she's really pretty?

you don't keep your thoughts to yourself, you still get slapped in the face. ;-)

I could see a potential for serious misuse, but also to help people -
say, those who are quadriplegic, who can't otherwise communicate.  Maybe
even help people who have psychological disorders.

Hmmm, I don't remember the name but there was an original Outer Limits
story where an Army psychologist invented a similar device for that
purpose but bcause of an earthquake, his mind got swapped into the
body of a psychotic soldier and the soldier's mind ended up in the
body of the psychologist.

If you are interestd in th original story (stories, actually) both
Skylark of Space and Skylark Three ar available in pdf versions all
over the web There's a particularly good description of the efucator
in Skylark Three where the lead character, Seatons, makes a new and
improved model with a 5 kW power tube that he discovered could be used
to take another person's thoughts by force; that power tube burning
away any conceivable resistance if the need arose.


Ron


___________

"My life is a Testament to all the things one can do-- when you don't
listen to other people."

– Brian Walker –

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Chiron wrote:

I wonder what frequencies a microwave oven uses... of course, that's
around 1 kW, which would be way too strong.

They operate in the 2.4 GHz range.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 5, 9:59 pm, Chiron
<chiron613.no.sp...@no.spam.please.gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 21:05:06 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:
electrical activity? I don't know for sure and as far as I know, nobody
has ever connected one person to another via an EEG arangement.

Oh, I just had another thought... if you *did* amplify the signals, and
if each brain was responsive to what the other was thinking, you'd
(apparently) get a positive feedback effect.  A thinks of X; B receives
that, so he also thinks of X; which gets transmitted back to A,
reinforcing his original idea of X; and so on.

Not necessarily. Some while ago the people at the Monroe Institute did
a [controversial] neurological study on a bunch of psis to see if
there was a definitive difference between the brainwaves of people
with various 'wild talents" and those people without gifts and /or if
thre was a definitiv diffrnce between people with different gifts.
They found that certain abilities were activated by certain specific
frequencies-- and probably the only reason why there are so few true
telepaths in the world is simply because the active frequncy for
telepathy is 4 Hz. Most folks are sound asleep at 4 hz and are
probably on the edge of REM sleep... But if you can figure out a way
to reach the lower edge of theta and still be awake, you can prove
that line in the movie Scanners about telepathy being a "linking of
nervous systems" to be bogus.

Ron



________________

"Cheer up, Trigger! It really isn't all that bad, being a functioning
psi."

–– Telzey Amberdon (The Symbiotes) ––

 

[Chiron]

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 23:50:58 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

The problem with all of those light & sound devices is that there is
essentially a threshold valu befor photo-ntrainmnt can take effect--
which is why a medical strobe light (1 watt/second or greater) is far
more efficacious than LEDs and even then you might or might not b abl to
lock onto a dsired frequency. I've had five EEG over the years and I was
inadvertently entrained just twice (at 4 Hz and at 8 Hz-- well, flashes
per second)-- why, who knows?

You know, it looks like your keyboard's 'e' isn't working well...

Anyway, I don't see why you can't use LED's for entrainment. Whatever
the appropriate wavelength may be - even white - you can get LED's that
are close enough. Single LED's aren't powerful enough, but they can
easily be connected in parallel to any desired intensity. Flashing them,
if anything, would be much simpler than the usual strobes, which require
high voltages to initiate the breakdown of gas within the bulb (at least,
the ones I've seen were such). With LED's, the voltages would be very
low. A simple 555 timer, with some circuitry to boost current, would be
enough and it would let you vary the frequency through a huge range of
values if desired.

I've tried biofeedback. I had little success, but I am not convinced
that the device was actually functional. I don't see why you couldn't
build your own biofeedback machine, for way less than $1200. Since it
would be detecting signals in the microvolt range, it would have to be
quite sensitive and have excellent noise rejection, but this wouldn't be
beyond the possibility of an amateur. OTOH, the magnetic device you are
talking about is much simpler...

I have no idea whether a person exposed to a frequency would eventually
become able to reproduce that frequency on his own without equipment.
From what you've said about biofeedback (time-consuming and needs to be
reinforced), it would seem that no, a person using just magnetic
entrainment wouldn't be able to produce it on his own. OTOH... if you
are exposed long enough, perhaps the brain would change...

Unfortunately, with something as complex as the brain, "change" is
usually equivalent to "damage." Attaining some specific frequency may be
good, but getting stuck there might not... You're in unknown territory
when it comes to stuff like this.

--
NEWS FLASH!!
Today the East German pole-vault champion became the West German pole-
vault champion.

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 5, 7:48 pm, Chiron
<chiron613.no.sp...@no.spam.please.gmail.com> wrote:

On Thu, 05 Apr 2012 19:09:20 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:

snip





I should have qualified my statement to read, "From what I've read in
*credible* sources..."  Sorry if I didn't make this clear.  I wasn't
talking about the endless Websites claiming to have discovered
brand-new physics, perpetual motion, free energy, and so on.

?  What do any of these things have to do with brainwave
    entrainment via an electromagnetic field?

If you want to altr your brainwaves, entrain them, to get rid of ADD or
develop telekinesis or learn remote viewing, whatever, there are only a
few limited ways of going about it: 1) biofeedback, 2) binaural beats,
3) photo-entrainment with a strobe light, and magnetic entrainment-- the
project I'm working on now.

Biofeedback is slow (and costly).

There's an article which shows that binaural beats are ineffective
despite all the products out there. They also don't work on everybody
(they don't do **** for me).

Photo-entrainment is unpredictable; the reason why all of those light &
sound devices produc so little results is that LEDs are so weak as to be
useless. One would need a good medical strobe like the kind used in eeg
tests and even then the results can be variable,

Magnetic entrainment shows a lot of promise: it uses a magnetic field to
 get the brain to lock onto a particular frequency and has the advantage
that the technique requires very little equipment that costs only a few
bucks.

Oh, and of course there's also yoga & meditation-- if one has a few
years to spare.  

Ron

I think that *all* of these techniques are either ineffective, or highly
variable.  My suspicion is that each of these techniques has a group of
people who may benefit from them, but that no technique is effective to
everyone or even a majority of people.  That could be why experiments
have been so inconclusive...  So some folks do seem to respond to
binaural beats.  I know people who swear by them.  They never did
anything for me, though.  I can't say that this wasn't some sort of
placebo effect, but... isn't the placebo effect something worthwhile?  If
there's no objective way to evaluate a situation, is there a difference
between feeling good, and just thinking you feel good?  If you've got a
physical illness that can be demonstrated objectively, maybe there is.
If a tumor is growing, thinking you're better might be fatal if it causes
you to skip other treatment for it.  But when it comes to the mind,
things are not so certain.

You might reconsider the light experiments.  There are all kinds of LED's
out there now.  I was researching something and came across information
suggesting that the wavelength of light was important.  If memory serves
(it might not) I think something like 450 nm or so - blue light.  There
are now high-intensity, blue LED's available for not much money.

The problem with all of those light & sound devices is that there is
essentially a threshold valu befor photo-ntrainmnt can take effect--
which is why a medical strobe light (1 watt/second or greater) is far
more efficacious than LEDs and even then you might or might not b abl
to lock onto a dsired frequency. I've had five EEG over the years and
I was inadvertently entrained just twice (at 4 Hz and at 8 Hz-- well,
flashes per second)-- why, who knows?

Biofeedback is much more reliable but it has its drawbacks: it's slow
and you have to keep at it or lose whatever success you might get.
Magnetic entrainment seems to be far more reliable-- at least
according to the article I cited earlier, and is far more cheaper
paying for two ICs and som wir as opposd to a $1200 biofeedback
machine. But what nobody has yet answered me, is whether a prson xposd
to a particular frquncy for long periods can later on get into that
freqeuncy later on *without* a field generator being on? I guess i'll
find out....


Ron

 

[Winston]

Chiron wrote:

(...)

Unfortunately, with something as complex as the brain, "change" is
usually equivalent to "damage."

Most of the changes our brains make are the result of learning
or in coping with damage. An unchanging brain is a brain in real
trouble, IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity


--Winston

 

[Chiron]

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:28:30 -0700, Winston wrote:

Chiron wrote:

(...)

Unfortunately, with something as complex as the brain, "change" is
usually equivalent to "damage."

Most of the changes our brains make are the result of learning or in
coping with damage. An unchanging brain is a brain in real trouble,
IMHO.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neuroplasticity

I'm talking about changes imposed from outside the brain, not normal
changes that occur as a result of natural processes. This should have
been clear from the context.

--Winston

--
A pat on the back is only a few centimeters from a kick in the pants.

 

[Winston]

Chiron wrote:

On Tue, 10 Apr 2012 08:28:30 -0700, Winston wrote:

Chiron wrote:

(...)

Unfortunately, with something as complex as the brain, "change" is
usually equivalent to "damage."

(...)

I'm talking about changes imposed from outside the brain, not normal
changes that occur as a result of natural processes.

?

Chiron > Anyway, I don't see why you can't use LED's for entrainment.

Built-in, self grown LEDs? Doesn't sound too natural to me.

I agree that given enough force, an external LED *could*
damage the brain, at least in theory. This is new
territory for me though.

(...)

Chiron > I've tried biofeedback.

Built-in biofeedback device?

Is the use of a biofeedback device that exists outside the
brain particularly hazardous to brain health? I dunno.

Chiron > OTOH, the magnetic device you are talking about is much simpler...

Growing one naturally inside your brain will be problematic.

Chiron > I have no idea whether a person exposed to a frequency would
Chiron > eventually become able to reproduce that frequency on his own
Chiron > without equipment.

They did it to begin with, so why shouldn't they be able to
do it once more?

Clearly from the context of your statements here, these
stimuli are all "normal changes that occur as a result of
natural processes" and are not "changes imposed from outside
the brain", yes?

Otherwise, these stimuli from external LEDs, biofeedback
device, Magnetic stimulation, imposed as they are from
outside the brain are likely equivalent to brain damage.

Have I got that right at last?



I think we are getting somewhere.

I figure the jury is still out on the hazards of stimulation
from blinking LEDs, the tone of a biofeedback device
or that of D.C. magnetic flux. I doubt that otherwise
healthy individuals would suffer brain damage from the
first two.

I agree with your implication that microwave power
impinging on the living brain from without is likely
to cause damage, however.

It is a credit to our physiology and neuroplasticity
that we recover from microwave exposure as well as we do.

"I'm talking about changes imposed from outside the brain, not normal
changes that occur as a result of natural processes."

But of course.


--Winston

 

[Winston]

Ron Hubbard wrote:

(...)

the fact is, highly creative people like
Nikola Tesla as wll as many strongly psychic people such as Karl Jung
et al produce considerable amounts of theta activity.

Less now, though.

--Winston

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 10, 12:14 am, Chiron
<chiron613.no.sp...@no.spam.please.gmail.com> wrote:

On Mon, 09 Apr 2012 23:50:58 -0700, Ron Hubbard wrote:
The problem with all of those light & sound devices is that there is
essentially a threshold valu befor photo-ntrainmnt can take effect--
which is why a medical strobe light (1 watt/second or greater) is far
more efficacious than LEDs and even then you might or might not b abl to
lock onto a dsired frequency. I've had five EEG over the years and I was
inadvertently entrained just twice (at 4 Hz and at 8 Hz-- well, flashes
per second)-- why, who knows?

You know, it looks like your keyboard's 'e' isn't working well...

Yah, I know: my "e" is in bad shape and a few other keys are missing
too, but it'll have to be a while before I can get a new one. Sigh...

Anyway, I don't see why you can't use LED's for entrainment.  Whatever
the appropriate wavelength may be - even white - you can get LED's that
are close enough.  Single LED's aren't powerful enough, but they can
easily be connected in parallel to any desired intensity.

In theory maybe, but the problem is that people buy those light &
sound products but hav no real way to s if thy are working as
subjective opinions are meaningless from most people. From what I've
read thtough, the dynamics behind photo-entrainment aren't as simple
as brighter lights.I'm not sure of the exact mecanisms involved, but
back in the day Melvin Powers-- a famous hypnotist-- had a kind of
strobe unit that could be synchronized to alter brainwavs for better
hypnosis. I don't know if it worked as advertised, but I suspect it
was better than any LED product. Maybe, just MAYBE, it's not only a
matter of flash rate but also flash duration-- I dunno, that's maybe a
matter for physiologists to discover. Or if somebody wanted to do a
little experimentation in this area, one could probably build a fancy
strobe with both adjustable flash rate and an adjustable flash
duration maybe by switching in more capacitance or more inductace
somwhere. Say, aren't there commercial strobes with these features?

if anything, would be much simpler than the usual strobes, which require
high voltages to initiate the breakdown of gas within the bulb (at least,
the ones I've seen were such).  With LED's, the voltages would be very
low.  A simple 555 timer, with some circuitry to boost current, would be
enough and it would let you vary the frequency through a huge range of
values if desired.

Sure, but I would want what works, not what's easier or cheaper to
build--- although I wouldn't mind if there was something that worked
and was cheap too. <w>

I've tried biofeedback.  I had little success, but I am not convinced
that the device was actually functional.  I don't see why you couldn't
build your own biofeedback machine, for way less than $1200.  Since it
would be detecting signals in the microvolt range, it would have to be
quite sensitive and have excellent noise rejection, but this wouldn't be
beyond the possibility of an amateur.  OTOH, the magnetic device you are
talking about is much simpler...

LOL. Yes, I tried making my own biofeedback machine (BFM) a long time
ago whn circuit diagrams were in electronics magazines all during the
late '70s and the '80s; that was a comparatively "simple" circuit that
had a number of op-amps for filters and had no fancy programmable ICs.
All EEG devices are complicated, complex, sophisticated devices that
*are not* easy to make and are not for your casual hobbyist: it takes
a lot of time, money, and skill because you are working with micro-
voltages and impedances that are critical-- not like building a
shortwave set or a better burglar alarm.

However, there is a group dedicated to making cheap EEGs using
sophisticated digital circuitry. If you decide to go that route, I
wish you luck. It took me nearly two years to design a working sonic
screwdriver, and that turned out to be a lot easier than putting
together a BFM.

As for cheaper BFMs, the WaveRider Jr is probably the best BFM around
and should be less expensive at $1200 but connected to a laptop or
other computer, it works nearly as well as medical units. It's only
problem is that there's too little support programming. The price is
so high you know because there isn't a great market for this kind of
equipment. You'd think the new generation games like Mindflex and the
Star Wars force trainer would help to reduce the cost of new EEG
devices but that didn't happen. Pity...


As for my gadget, I'm relying on someone else's claims in an area
where there's too litte available data and what I have in mind is a
somwhat simpler design than what was usd in the original experiments,
but should work anyway if the theory is sound. It's a bitch that the
XR2206 has been discontinued and isn't as cheap and readily available
as it used to be since I use that IC in many-- if not most-- of my
projects. Oy..

I have no idea whether a person exposed to a frequency would eventually
become able to reproduce that frequency on his own without equipment.
From what you've said about biofeedback (time-consuming and needs to be
reinforced), it would seem that no, a person using just magnetic
entrainment wouldn't be able to produce it on his own.  OTOH... if you
are exposed long enough, perhaps the brain would change...

Unfortunately, with something as complex as the brain, "change" is
usually equivalent to "damage."  Attaining some specific frequency may be
good, but getting stuck there might not...  You're in unknown territory
when it comes to stuff like this.

Hmmm, not exactly. There's a lot of useful information out there but
on has to have an open mind as to it's value; what many people would
consider to be "pseudo-science" can have great validity but it gets
passed up because mainstream researchers haven't bothered to look at
it or it gets into areas where the Establishment tends to keep its
collective head up its collective ass. But as Max Planck once said,
"A scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and
making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually
die and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.”

But to your point, of course I wouldn't want to be in theta all day
and night, but the current view that theta is an abnormal activity in
waking adults is wrong: the fact is, highly creative people like
Nikola Tesla as wll as many strongly psychic people such as Karl Jung
et al produce considerable amounts of theta activity. While it could
conceivably cause ADD/ADHD and night terrors in some, for the most
part the advantages far outweigh the few disadvantages in trms of
healing, learning, and psi potential (if you believe in that sort of
thing).


Ron

________________

“…Considering what the ordinary human being intrinsically is. By
‘ordinary’ is meant, of course, the person to whom the entire field of
psionics is a sealed realm; the person in whose tightly closed and
rigidly conventional mind no supra-normal phenomenon can possibly
occur or exist.”

–– E.E. “Doc” Smith (Subspace Explorers) —

 

[Ron Hubbard]

On Apr 10, 11:50 am, Winston <Wins...@Bigbrother.net> wrote:

Ron Hubbard wrote:

(...)

the fact is, highly creative people like
Nikola Tesla as wll as many strongly psychic people such as Karl Jung
et al produce considerable amounts of theta activity.

Less now, though.

--Winston

Well, *did* anyway...

Ron