copper crisis?...

On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whit3rd@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"
Click to expand...

These are cool:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1

Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1

How can they wind that inductor?
 
lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 16.15.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"
These are cool:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1

Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1

How can they wind that inductor?
Click to expand...

soft wire and constraint it from bending any other way than you want it to

https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420
 
On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 15:17:47 +0300, upsidedown@downunder.com wrote:

On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com
wrote:


https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.

What is wrong with aluminium cables ? The electric conductivity is
only slightly worse than in copper, just make the cables somewhat
thicker (and also save some mass).

Get rid of the bulky 51/60 Hz AC distribution (which needs bulky
transformers) and replace it with HVDC/MVDC/LVDC distribution with
small high frequency transformers.

For LVDC distribution, standardize some voltages, such as:

- 1500 Vdc: fits into the EU LV directive and a lot of LVD certified
electric components can be used

- 400 Vdc: Common in EV and in fast chargers. Also 380 Vdc (+/-190
Vdc) is a common voltage in data centers and also increasingly in
telecom centers

- 48 Vdc, common telecom voltage. Also PoE
Click to expand...

We use 48v as the prime DC power in some of our products, starting
with a kilowatt of MeanWell boxed power supply or a Phihong wart.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/gr57bhafemypi63/P940_box_9.jpg?raw=1

The first step is to get it down to something friendlier for the small
stuff, like 12 or 24 volts, and then sub-regulate. LM2576HV-ADJ is
klunky but reliable.

SRH05S12 is a cool little part. I have some test data.

Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

Are these used for anything else than electric clocks driven by AC
mains ?
Click to expand...

Are there electrostatic motor clocks? Cool. One could maybe make a
million RPM electrostatic motor just for fun.

As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.

In India, they make TVs, computers and kitchen utilities that operate
from 48 Vdc. These are intended for small local village nets driven by
solar panels (e.g. four 12 V panels). This avoids much of the DC/AC/DC
conversion losses.
Click to expand...

Yeah, 48 is great.
 
In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh87nnaaa2vk1sgejoa@4ax.com>,
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com says...
That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?

Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a
strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go
through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up.
 
lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 17.18.32 UTC+2 skrev Ralph Mowery:
In article <b3h5dhlvkucvi0cuh...@4ax.com>,
jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com says...

That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?

Of course, getting lots of diamonds would crash the price of diamonds.



There are plenty of diamons. For a long time the DeBeers have had a
strangle hold on them. Almost all diamonds worth anything had to go
through them. They only let so many out to keep the price up.
Click to expand...

and convinced people that \"used\" diamonds are not good enough,
you have to get a new one
 
On 2022/07/16 7:03 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com
wrote:


On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.


Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
adapt.

Or some genius will notice something we\'ve been overlooking.

Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.

That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?
Click to expand...

I doubt people would mine the moon/asteroids for gold, they might for
copper if it got too expensive on Earth.
You\'d need Heinlein\'s shipping method to make it worth while - and
copper can be pushed in a magnetic accelerator...

John :-#)#
 
On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 7:15:34 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:

... Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"

These are cool:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1

Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1

How can they wind that inductor?
Click to expand...

Wire drawing takes multiple passes, with annealing and capstans between the dies, to eventually
neck down a rod to wire. A big hydraulic press can instantly stamp sheet into complex shapes,
as evidenced by each old solid-copper one cent coin. The windings look like stampings.
 
lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 20.21.50 UTC+2 skrev whit3rd:
On Saturday, July 16, 2022 at 7:15:34 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:
... Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets..

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"

These are cool:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1

Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1

How can they wind that inductor?
Wire drawing takes multiple passes, with annealing and capstans between the dies, to eventually
neck down a rod to wire. A big hydraulic press can instantly stamp sheet into complex shapes,
as evidenced by each old solid-copper one cent coin. The windings look like stampings.
Click to expand...

https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420
 
On Sat, 16 Jul 2022 07:25:20 -0700 (PDT), Lasse Langwadt Christensen
<langwadt@fonz.dk> wrote:

lørdag den 16. juli 2022 kl. 16.15.34 UTC+2 skrev jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT), whit3rd <whi...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"
These are cool:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/08w3pg72wml0eac/PL300.jpg?raw=1

Kapton pcb windings. Good for 300 watts, more with some air.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ed8o1h3v8gptvul/SER2918.jpg?raw=1

How can they wind that inductor?

soft wire and constraint it from bending any other way than you want it to

https://youtu.be/rsbfOWiA420
Click to expand...

That is a cool video ! We use flat wire just about like that.

I had wondered how they did that. Not that hard to do evidently.

I love the way they make woven/braided wire (Litz) and woven rope.

boB
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com
wrote:


On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.


Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
adapt.

Or some genius will notice something we\'ve been overlooking.

Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.

That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?
Click to expand...

One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in
the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads
down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it
would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the
re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air.

\"This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be
unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed.\"

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:26:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
<pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com
wrote:


On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.


Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
adapt.

Or some genius will notice something we\'ve been overlooking.

Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.

That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?

One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in
the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads
down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it
would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the
re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air.

\"This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be
unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed.\"

Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Click to expand...

I was speculating randomly on why we have clumps of cool stuff to dig
up, instead of uniform basalt. Some things were separated by local
processes, coal and salt for instance, but did critters make gold
nuggets and metallic iron?

If gold arrived by asteroid, why are there gold asteroids?
 
On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 08:09:50 -0700) it happened
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote in
<0903dhhpmdat4e3fng4cjgplmq5a8gpql9@4ax.com>:

https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.
Click to expand...

Sup[p]er conductors come to mind, but cooling is hard
Gold price in USD is dropping, gold is s good conductor.
Horses...
:)
Horses are green but full of shit.

Remember that physics question if a car driven by a propellor in the wind
can go faster than the wind?
 
On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
<whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
<f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"
Click to expand...

I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
 
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"


I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
Click to expand...

Aren\'t copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.

My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
wind my own.
 
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 18:36:20 UTC+1, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"


I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
Aren\'t copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.

My Pockels Cell driver fried several commercial inductors technically
operating within their specs, from skin and proximity effects. Had to
wind my own.
Click to expand...
 
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 10:36:20 UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
....
I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
Aren\'t copper tubes, optionally water cooled, use in transmitters?
Anything below skin depth is a waste of copper.
....
Click to expand...

Please see section 1.6 in the Art of Electronics - The x-Chapters for how to minimize skin effects in large power cables where the skin effect is significant even at 50/60Hz.

Litz cable has traditionally been used up to ~1-2Mhz to reduce skin-effect. Above that frequency the inter-conductor capacitance reduces the advantage.

https://patents.google.com/patent/US1904162A/en

Modern aircraft are changing to using DC power transmission at 270V or bipolar +/-270V and use high-frequency converters to change to the needed voltage close to the load.

kw
 
jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 09:26:54 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Fri, 15 Jul 2022 10:30:57 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com
wrote:


On 2022/07/15 8:09 a.m., jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

As Africa and Asia advance and electrify, copper might be a limiting
resource. Solar and wind power need a lot of copper for power
gathering too. The numbers there could be interesting, lots of long
runs at relatively low voltage and power, used at low duty cycle.


Time to invest in copper mines I guess...and humans will simply have to
adapt.

Or some genius will notice something we\'ve been overlooking.

Or at some point it will become cost effective to mine the asteroids.

That sounds tricky. If there were tons of gold or diamonds on
asteroids or on the moon, would it be worth harvesting?

One could use the Heinlein method to create very high grade deposits in
the middle of the Sonoran Desert, say--let the rocks slow the payloads
down, and then use mining methods to get the metal out. Of course it
would flunk its environmental impact audit on account of all the NOx the
re-entry would generate, and all the fine rock dust it would put in the air.

\"This rock contains substances known to the State of California to be
unhealthy if it hits you at hypersonic speed.\"

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

I was speculating randomly on why we have clumps of cool stuff to dig
up, instead of uniform basalt. Some things were separated by local
processes, coal and salt for instance, but did critters make gold
nuggets and metallic iron?

If gold arrived by asteroid, why are there gold asteroids?
Click to expand...

Mostly hydrothermal AFAIK.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
<pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com> wrote:

On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
whit3rd@gmail.com> wrote in
f9175eed-f332-4d34-ae3f-a0740dbbb72an@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"


I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
Click to expand...

A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
cheaper than gold too.

Joe Gwinn
 
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"


I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
cheaper than gold too.

Joe Gwinn
Click to expand...

At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper.
The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length
of the surface.

John
 
John Walliker wrote:
On Sunday, 17 July 2022 at 20:28:00 UTC+1, Joe Gwinn wrote:
On Sun, 17 Jul 2022 16:37:59 GMT, Jan Panteltje
pNaonSt...@yahoo.com> wrote:
On a sunny day (Fri, 15 Jul 2022 11:49:11 -0700 (PDT)) it happened whit3rd
whi...@gmail.com> wrote in
f9175eed-f332-4d34...@googlegroups.com>:

On Friday, July 15, 2022 at 8:09:57 AM UTC-7, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
https://gizmodo.com/a-copper-shortage-is-likely-coming-for-the-energy-trans-1849178385

Motor and transformer design are pretty advanced. I wonder if they
could be made with more electronics and less copper somehow.
Electrostatic motors miss by an enormous factor.

If you only consider big-scale projects, superconducting motors and
generators are small, with low copper content, and kilohertz transformers are likewise
compact and need less wire volume. Copper\'s ductility, however,
and wire-drawing technology, are always going to be engineering assets.

\"Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid, copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade...\"


I wonder with high frequency transformers if the skin effect would make
some other metal than copper coated with say gold a solution.
A traditional approach is to silver-plate the copper. Silver is
cheaper than gold too.

Joe Gwinn

At microwave frequencies plated silver often has worse conductivity than copper.
The surface finish of the plating tends to be irregular which increases the length
of the surface.

John
Click to expand...

The first RF thing I ever made for hire (1981) was a 12-GHz microwave
absorption cavity for a phase-noise measurement setup. I still have it
on my windowsill at the lab.

It was machined from solid OFHC copper, and then electroless-copper
plated to improve its surface conductivity.

The inside of the cavity is still very shiny-looking, 40 years later.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC / Hobbs ElectroOptics
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

http://electrooptical.net
http://hobbs-eo.com
 
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