Circular saw won't ground, safe?

[Rich Grise]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:34:07 -0400, Robatoy wrote:

In article <dLPhe.108$Nj3.23@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com>,
spambait@milmac.com (Doug Miller) wrote:

In fact, I do more than that: I plug my tester into something that I'm
sure *is* live, to make sure it lights up when it's supposed to, before
using on something that I believe to be not live.

That's exactly the same thing I do. I don't even trust voltmeters or
testers. I want to see them work first. THAT is how electricity is
handled.

I read something in one of those "home handyman" articles about when
you're working on the wiring in, say, a bedroom, but the breaker
panel is in the basement, and not labeled well. You get a line-
operated radio, and plug it in in the room you want to deenergize,
and turn it up loud enough so you can hear it from the basement.
Switch off the breakers one at a time, and when you've got the
right one, the radio will quit. If any given breaker doesn't turn
off the radio, you can turn it back on so you can still see your
way up the stairs, of course.

Cheers!
Rich

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <pan.2005.05.17.14.03.57.924781@example.net>, Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote:

I read something in one of those "home handyman" articles about when
you're working on the wiring in, say, a bedroom, but the breaker
panel is in the basement, and not labeled well. You get a line-
operated radio, and plug it in in the room you want to deenergize,
and turn it up loud enough so you can hear it from the basement.
Switch off the breakers one at a time, and when you've got the
right one, the radio will quit. If any given breaker doesn't turn
off the radio, you can turn it back on so you can still see your
way up the stairs, of course.

Yes, that works -- but one of these is a *lot* easier:
http://www.lowes.
com/lowes/lkn?action=productDetail&productId=12334-1781-GET-1200

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Odinn]

Rich Grise wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:


"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2005.05.16.18.31.39.358520@example.net...

When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
4KV plate supply.

"Which one killed you?"

If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)

If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
different body?



I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)

Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
eyes.

Where is your finger pointing?

At my face.

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 bqvaa@ngynagnovxre.arg to reply

 

[Robatoy]

In article <pan.2005.05.17.13.59.34.617023@example.net>,
Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote:

On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:


"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2005.05.16.18.31.39.358520@example.net...

When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
4KV plate supply.

"Which one killed you?"

If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)

If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
different body?


I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)

Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
eyes.

Where is your finger pointing?

Cheers!
Rich

Why...in my nose, of course!

 

[Odinn]

Robatoy wrote:

In article <pan.2005.05.17.13.59.34.617023@example.net>,
Rich Grise <richgrise@example.net> wrote:


On Mon, 16 May 2005 23:57:23 +0000, Leon wrote:


"Rich Grise" <richgrise@example.net> wrote in message
newsan.2005.05.16.18.31.39.358520@example.net...

When I was in tech school, one of the teachers said, "Suppose you're
working inside a transmitter chassis, and you bump up against the 12V
filament supply, get a tingle and flinch, knocking your hand into the
4KV plate supply.

"Which one killed you?"

If you could answer the question, neither killed you. ;~)

If you have a brain transplant, do you end up with a different brain or a
different body?


I guess that depends on which you believe is "you". ;-)

Here's an interesting experiment. Close your eyes, and say "Me", while
simultaneously pointing at yourself. Hold that position, and open your
eyes.

Where is your finger pointing?

Cheers!
Rich


Why...in my nose, of course!

Well, I wasn't going to say it was THAT close to my face

--
Odinn
RCOS #7

"The more I study religions the more I am convinced that man never
worshipped anything but himself." -- Sir Richard Francis Burton

Reeky's unofficial homepage ... http://www.reeky.org
'03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
'97 VN1500D ......... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/VulcanClassic
Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

rot13 bqvaa@ngynagnovxre.arg to reply

 

[Robert Bonomi]

In article <1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews>,
Tim Zimmer <bravecat@gmail.com> wrote:

bluemax1811-newsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in message

...judging by his lack of response.

I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.

Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
and saws get away without a ground plug?

Older style equipment has only one layer of insulation. A *single* failure
exposes the operator to electrical shock, unless the equipment is properly
grounded. With the grounding, it requires _two_ failures for possible
shock.

Newer gear is constructed in a style called "double insulated". It takes
_two_ separate "safety equipment" failures for the operator to be exposed
to a possible electrical shock.

By the nature of the 'double insulated" design, a failure of the second
insulation is much *less* likely than a failure of the 'grounding' system
in older equipment.

Hence safety is provided for in a "more reliable" manner. and the 'ground'
plug is not needed -- it doesn't provide any 'additional' protection.

(Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock if
I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground?

Short answer: "Yes, you _can_ receive a fatal shock that way." This is not
to say that it _will_ be fatal in every instance. (see the 'long answer',
below, for all the gory details.)

Long answer (bear with me, it _does_ take a *long* discussion to cover all
the relevant matters) follows --

That's a *complicated* question. First off, what constitutes a "fatal"
shock depends on a _lot_ of things. The absolute minimal considerations
are 'how much _current_', and '*where* on the body'. applied directly
to heart muscle, a handful of milli-amps, which requires only a few volts,
is sufficient to cause 'catastrophic' problems.

Applied to the skin, away from the heart, what constitutes a 'dangerous'
level requires higher levels.

"How much" higher depends on a lot of things. The 'resistance' of skin,
etc. depends on a whole sh*tload of factors., but the biggest one is
how _dry_ the skin is, where contact is made. On a living being, "dry on
the surface" skin has a resistance of several thousand ohms. When skin is
damp -- sweaty, for one example -- the resistance decreases radically.
Can be as low as a few hundred ohms. _Below_ the surface of the body,
resistances are quite low. *especially* so for 'nerve fiber', which
runs *everywhere*.

Now, we have to take a digression into 'how electricity works'.
(note to purists: this description *is* somewhat simplified)

When you have two things "in parallel" connected to a source of electrical
power, There is always a flow of electric current through *both* of those
things. "How much" current flows through each thing is determined by the
resistance of that thing.

Note: 'in theory', "ground" is "ground", and is always at exactly the same
potential, regardless of location. In practice, it doesn't work that way.
"Ground" is a moderately lousy conductor, and you may get different levels
at different places.

In addition, the 'ground' and/or 'neutral' wires are *not* "perfect"
conductors. They are real-world devices, and have 'internal' resistance.
Depending on the size of the wire, and the length back to the transmission
point, this resistance can be significant. Any piece of wire, when you
connect to it at a point along its length, can be regarded as two resistors,
one representing the internal resistance from the beginning to where you
connect to it; the other from that connection-point to the other end of the
wire.

This means, among other things, that the 'neutral' wire _at_a_point_distant_
_from_the_power_source_, is *not* at the same 'ground' level as 'ground' at
the transmission point.

If you connect your body across the 'hot' wire, to ground (either 'earth
ground', or the 'ground' wire), you are placing yourself "in parallel"
with any other 'devices' (or 'loads') on that power feed. As those devices
have relatively high resistances (relative to 'just plain wire'), there
will be a considerable flow of current through your body.

If you connect your body across the 'neutral' wire, to ground (either 'earth
ground', or the 'ground' wire), you are placing yourself "in parallel" with
only the resistance of the 'return' part of that wire. This resistance is
comparatively _low_, and the current flow will be comparatively small.

From all this, it should be obvious that there is no simple nor easy means
of predicting "just how much" current _might_ flow through your body if you
get across the wires.

One more consideration to throw into the pot. There is no 'guarantee'
that the 'hot' and 'neutral' wires are _properly_ connected/identified.

What one _thinks_ is th 'neutral', may, in actuality, be the 'hot'.
It's not likely, but do you want to "bet your life" (literally!) on it?

The only "safe" way to work on electrical wiring is to:
0) assume that unprotected contact with the wiring *will* kill you.
(even if not _always_ true, you only get to be wrong ONCE )
1) disconnect it from the power supply
2) ensure that *nobody* can re-connect it without your OK.
(this is what "lock-outs" are for.)
3) test _after_ disconnecting to make sure there is no power present.
4) work on it *as*if* power was still present. (see rule #0)
(i.e. rubber gloves, insulated tools, only one wire at a time, etc.)

While that may _look_ excessively paranoid, it isn't.

Items 1,2,3 'appear' to describe a 'fool poof' system for ensuring safety.
Unfortunately,
"For every fool-proof system, there exists a *sufficiently*determined*
fool capable of breaking it."
applies.

that's why 4 *is* necessary.

If so, then why
not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

That's what modern "double insulated" tool design _does_.

That is *why* most tools are built that way today. <grin>

As for "doesn't allow a shock", well, the laws of physics are not subject
to repeal by the acts of man. ANY place there is a difference in electric
potential, there is the 'potential' for an electric shock. (Pun intended!)

The most one can do is engineer things so that getting a shock is "difficult".

Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
system. Is this the GFCI?

Probably.

GFCI detects _unbalanced_ current flow in the hot vs neutral wires.
This happens *only*if* there is 'some other path' for current to flow
through.

In the case of a 'hot to ground' short, assuming it is a true short (as
in approximately zero resistance), it will be a bit of a race between
the overload circuit breaker, and the GFCI, to see which trips first.

In the case of a 'neutral to ground' short, you do not have an 'overload'
condition, so the GFCI is the one shutting things down.

 

[toller]

"Robatoy" <design@BULLtopworks.ca> wrote in message
news:design-E86876.18202715052005@news.bellglobal.com...

In article <b7Lhe.272$Ye3.210@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
everything!

Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
idea how irresponsible you are?

Any electrical book. Ever read one?

Electricians used to test for hot wires by touching it; a little tingle and
it was hot. Thats all it is, a little tingle. Certainly not a recommended
method with modern test equipment available, but not all that dangerous
since they used to get plenty of tingles.
Measure your resistance,and then figure out the associated current. It is a
lot closer to 0ma than to 100ma.

 

[toller]

"Nog" <nognog@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:SuednWtsU_IBThrfRVn-hg@adelphia.com...

"Norman D. Crow" <Ravens@madbbs.com> wrote in message
news:d67s4s01hs5@enews3.newsguy.com...

"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:59Khe.270$%k3.140@news02.roc.ny...

"spudnuty" <spudnuty@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1116169743.470050.316980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
workmen bypassing them.
Richard


A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
"the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be
alive and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is
almost impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal
circumstances. Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from
4000v or higher.



IT ISN'T THE VOLTAGE! When I was in USN, they had studies showing deaths
from relatively low voltages. It's the amps, or more precisely the
milliamps, and where they travel. A certain milliamp current can be
lethal if it passes through the heart/chest area because it will cause
the heart to go into fibrillation, while a relatively high current may
just cause the heart to stop, but once it is removed the heart will
restart on it's own. I don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like
it was around the 90-100 milliamp range that was lethal due to causing
fibrillation.

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

In low voltage the injuries are not usually from the electricity but the
secondary reaction. If you are on a ladder and have an electrical induced
muscle contraction it can throw you off the ladder killing you when you
hit the ground. Likewise if you are holding a screwdriver, you might stab
yourself in the eye/brain. (has happened) You could twitch and drill a
hole in your leg. If it's an electric chain saw .....Did you ever see a
chain saw injury? It gets right to the arteries and you bleed to death
fast.
So a properly grounded power tool is safer and a GFI plug is better.

Even I can't argue with that...

I just get annoyed by the guys warning about the dangers of electrocution.

 

[toller]

"Tim Zimmer" <bravecat@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews...

bluemax1811-newsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in message

...judging by his lack of response.

I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.

Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
and saws get away without a ground plug?

They are double insulated. In normal use you should not be touching

anything that could be energized by a shorted hot.

(Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock
if
I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground? If so, then
why
not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

You cannot get a shock from a neutral unless it is open. A closed neutral
(which it would be, unless it were broken) is such a good conductor that
virtually no current would go through you. Until a few years ago dryers and
stoves had the frames connected to the neutral. They are perfectly safe
unless the neutral is broken, and then you may be the best path to ground.

Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
system. Is this the GFCI?

No, that is an overload that trips the breaker. It takes either time or a
huge overload. It protects the wiring, not you!
A GFCI trips very quickly if the current going out on the hot is not exactly
the same as the current returning on the neutral. It protects you if you
touch the hot. It will not protect you if you touch the hot and the
neutral; but you would have to be a real cluck to do that! (please refer to
my first post above.)

Thanks

 

[Norman D. Crow]

"Nog" <nognog@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:SuednWtsU_IBThrfRVn-hg@adelphia.com...
<snippage>

In low voltage the injuries are not usually from the electricity but the
secondary reaction. If you are on a ladder and have an electrical induced
muscle contraction it can throw you off the ladder killing you when you
hit the ground. Likewise if you are holding a screwdriver, you might stab
yourself in the eye/brain. (has happened) You could twitch and drill a
hole in your leg. If it's an electric chain saw .....Did you ever see a
chain saw injury? It gets right to the arteries and you bleed to death
fast.
So a properly grounded power tool is safer and a GFI plug is better.


I wasn't arguing the point that the cord should be replaced and the tool

properly grounded. I was merely making a comment about the fact that it
doesn't have to be a high voltage or high current that can kill you. There
are so many variables in an electric shock situation that it is nearly
impossible to set a hard & fast rule about what may or may not be fatal.

As Toller said, electricians often get "tingles". Not my idea of how to test
a circuit, but I've seen many USN electricians mates test circa WWII
shipboard fuse panels(cylindrical fuses on both hot & common) by walking two
fingers down the line of fuses. When they get a tingle across one fuse, it's
the bad one. Still not my idea of fun.

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

 

[Leon]

"CW" <cmagers@earthlink.net> wrote in message
newshLhe.999$Lc1.846@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...

Glad I'm not the only one that does that.

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:zUKhe.46$uH2.12@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...

Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

And who says the breaker box was labeled correctly or labeled at all.

 

[Dr. Anton T. Squeegee]

In article <iOKhe.1253$8g.1088@news01.roc.ny>, toller@yahoo.com says...

<snippety>

I certainly agree that the cord should be replaced; but it is not
particularly dangerous. To get any shock, you would have to both short the

<snippety-two>

Underestimating potential hazards has probably gotten lots of
people killed.

Any cord that is frayed and cracking is dangerous. Period. That
saw should NOT be used, under any conditions, until it has been properly
repaired.


--
Dr. Anton T. Squeegee, Director, Dutch Surrealist Plumbing Institute.
(Known to some as Bruce Lane, ARS KC7GR,
kyrrin (a/t) bluefeathertech[d=o=t]calm -- www.bluefeathertech.com
"If Salvador Dali had owned a computer, would it have been equipped
with surreal ports?"

 

[LRod]

On Mon, 16 May 2005 14:17:00 +0100, Andy Dingley
<dingbat@codesmiths.com> wrote:

(I'm posting from Europe, your local terms may be different).

[good stuff snipped]

US wiring is a shocking abomination by design and so it's only the huge
number of GFCIs and arcing-fault breakers (a totally alien concept in
the UK) that stop your evil aluminum wiring killing the population of
Detroit weekly.

Andy, Andy, Andy. You were doing good until here.

GFCIs are primarily protection when you're near water (kitchen,
bathroom, spa, pool, basement). They're not used on every circuit.

Arcing fault breakers are a relatively recent development, and I
suspect, the result of arc fault breaker industry lobbying rather than
a solution to an actual widespread problem. I'd be interested in
knowing how many deaths AFIs could have saved in the century of the
Edison system that we didn't have them.

Aluminum wiring (in house) was used for a relatively short time, in
only a very few houses (comparitvely), quite a number of years ago (on
the order of 30 or more). Although there are probably some houses that
still have it, it's not mowing down the populace left and right. The
vast, VAST majority of US homes are wired in copper.

Aluminum feeders and transmission lines are an altogether different
story and aren't killing anyone because they're aluminum, so far as I
know.

[more good stuff snipped]

--
LRod

Master Woodbutcher and seasoned termite

Shamelessly whoring my website since 1999

http://www.woodbutcher.net

Proud participant of rec.woodworking since February, 1997

 

[toller]

"Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> wrote in message
news:ahShe.1363374$6l.943940@pd7tw2no...

"Robatoy" <design@BULLtopworks.ca> wrote in message
news:design-E86876.18202715052005@news.bellglobal.com...
In article <b7Lhe.272$Ye3.210@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will
change
everything!

Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
idea how irresponsible you are?

Shame on you!
-------
Actually, such information is available many places, including the EPRI
book
on EHV power lines. The 100ma level is about the 0.5% probability level
for
fibrillation. However, fibrillation is time dependent so that on prolonged
contact, the level drops (i.e. at a let-go current of 9-10ma it takes
about
10 minutes to cause fibrillation). In many cases, design is based on a
5ma
level which is considered at or below the let-go level (not painless)
for
both adults and children.

For what contact time is that 0.5% figure for 100a? Or is it just an
average figure for all contacts?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Don Klipstein wrote:

In article <M6Qhe.622$W51.5387@typhoon.sonic.net>, Don Bruder wrote:
In article <jf5f815dvec9nr4h41ro19p3034elev1lq@4ax.com>,
LRod <duckecho@gmail.com> wrote:

Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.

Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
proven otherwise."

If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.

Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
provided by <insert name> funeral home."

I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who
were both. My father said the same thing about electricians.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

No, but I've met a few who were "Moldy oldie electricians". ;-)
--
Former professional electron wrangler.

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

 

[Fred Abse]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:33:16 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:

Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
proven otherwise."

The guy that taught me to shoot had this maxim:

"On a range, loaded guns don't kill people. Only unloaded ones"

--
"Electricity is of two kinds, positive and negative. The difference
is, I presume, that one comes a little more expensive, but is more
durable; the other is a cheaper thing, but the moths get into it."
(Stephen Leacock)

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Sat, 21 May 2005 15:14:50 +0100, Fred Abse wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 22:33:16 +0000, Don Bruder wrote:

Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
proven otherwise."

The guy that taught me to shoot had this maxim:

"On a range, loaded guns don't kill people. Only unloaded ones"

Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of shit. Of course
they do, that's what they're for.

The problem is stupid people and the governments that they elect
killing the _wrong_ people.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sat, 21 May 2005 04:22:02 +0000, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Don Klipstein wrote:

In article <M6Qhe.622$W51.5387@typhoon.sonic.net>, Don Bruder wrote:
In article <jf5f815dvec9nr4h41ro19p3034elev1lq@4ax.com>,
LRod <duckecho@gmail.com> wrote:

Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.

Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
proven otherwise."

If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.

Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
provided by <insert name> funeral home."

I have been told there are old pilots and bold pilots, but not many who
were both. My father said the same thing about electricians.

- Don Klipstein (don@misty.com)

No, but I've met a few who were "Moldy oldie electricians". ;-)

They check for live circuits with the back of their hand, so that
when they clench, it's away from the conductor. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

 

[CW]

Mine don't. Left alone, they just lay there. You must be talking about the
new animated ones, the ones with free will. Never seen one.

"Richard the Dreaded Libertarian" <eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote in
message newsan.2005.05.21.21.28.25.264630@doubleclick.net...

Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of shit. Of course
they do, that's what they're for.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <pan.2005.05.21.21.28.25.264630@doubleclick.net>, Richard the Dreaded Libertarian <eatmyshorts@doubleclick.net> wrote:

Whoever said "guns don't kill people" was full of shit. Of course
they do, that's what they're for.

Nonsense. When has a gun ever pulled its own trigger?

As to "what they're for"... most of mine are for killing deer. At least in
theory. In practice, it seems that for the most part, they're just for making
my arms tired while I sit in a tree stand. Kill people? Yeah, they'd probably
work for that, too, but I don't plan to find out.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?