Circular saw won't ground, safe?

[Doug Miller]

In article <phLhe.999$Lc1.846@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>, "CW" <cmagers@earthlink.net> wrote:

Glad I'm not the only one that does that.

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:zUKhe.46$uH2.12@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...

Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

In fact, I do more than that: I plug my tester into something that I'm sure
*is* live, to make sure it lights up when it's supposed to, before using on
something that I believe to be not live.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Doug Miller]

So you're saying that toller's "research" had a few holes in it? Imagine my
surprise.

In article <kevans-254278.18003315052005@r01.iad01.newshosting.com>, Benoit
EVANS <kevans@videotron.ca> wrote:

In home accidents in the U.S., one death in every hundred is the result
of an electrical shock from 110 or 220 volt sources.

Injuries from electric shock account for about 1000 deaths annually in
the United States and comprise about 5% of admissions to burn centres.
More than 60% of reported electrical injuries are due to electrocution
with 110- or 220-V current and most commonly result from failure to
ground tools or appliances properly or from using electrical devices
near water. Electrocution is the fifth leading cause of fatal
occupational injuries in the United States; 1% of household accidental
deaths are caused by electrical injuries.

The spectrum of clinical injury from accidental electrical shock ranges
from a transient unpleasant sensation after exposure to low-intensity
current to sudden death due to cardiac arrest. Clinical manifestations
are sometimes seen immediately after contact, but might not become
apparent until several hours after injury.

Source: Fish R. "Electric Shock. Part I: physics and pathophysiology",
Journal of Emergency Medicine, 1993, vol. 11, pp. 309-12.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <b7Lhe.272$Ye3.210@news02.roc.ny>, "toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.

Guess again, bozo.


--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <1116192152.ce14365b22134300926898074b7384d5@bubbanews>, "Tim Zimmer" <bravecat@gmail.com> wrote:

bluemax1811-newsgroups@yahoo.com> wrote in message

...judging by his lack of response.

I haven't found the time to work on the cord. I will now.

Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
and saws get away without a ground plug?

They're double-insulated. That means it takes *two* failures to make the case
live, instead of one.

(Here's an ignorant question) Is it true that I can receive a fatal shock if
I touch my skin from either neutral or hot and then ground? If so, then why
not replace the ground with a safer model which doesn't allow a shock?

If you mean, can you get a fatal shock from touching either hot or neutral,
while some other part of your body is touching ground, the answer is - Yes,
you can.

Equipment ground conductors are intended to ensure that no matter what happens
in the device you're using, its chassis cannot become live because the chassis
is connected to a true earth ground.

For maximum safety, use grounded tools, and plug them into a GFCI.

Lastly, a hot or neutral short to ground shuts down my entire electrical
system. Is this the GFCI?

The *entire* electrical system? Every circuit? That's a bit unusual... that
would suggest that your main breakers have tripped.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <fwPhe.65$wb2.35@newssvr11.news.prodigy.com>, "Jim" <j.n@nospam.com> wrote:

You won't get much of a shock by simultaneously touching neutral and ground.

Not necessarily so. It depends on how well you're grounded. If you touch
neutral and ground simultaneously, your body is providing an alternate path to
ground, in parallel with the neutral conductor. If you're standing in a puddle
on a bare concrete floor, you're providing a fairly low-impedance path to
ground. I wouldn't want to try the experiment.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Robatoy]

In article <b7Lhe.272$Ye3.210@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
everything!

Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
idea how irresponsible you are?

Shame on you!

 

[Don Bruder]

In article <jf5f815dvec9nr4h41ro19p3034elev1lq@4ax.com>,
LRod <duckecho@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sun, 15 May 2005 17:03:17 GMT, "CW" <cmagers@earthlink.net> wrote:

Glad I'm not the only one that does that.

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:zUKhe.46$uH2.12@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...

Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.

Absolutely. The exact same concept applies to guns: "If there's even the
slightest doubt about whether it could be loaded, then *IT IS* until
proven otherwise."

If there's even the slightest doubt that a pair of wires might be hot,
then *THEY ARE* until proven otherwise.

Any other assumption in either case is stupidity on a scale you only
read newspaper articles about. Usually articles ending "Services will be
provided by <insert name> funeral home."

--
Don Bruder - dakidd@sonic.net - New Email policy in effect as of Feb. 21, 2004.
Short form: I'm trashing EVERY E-mail that doesn't contain a password in the
subject unless it comes from a "whitelisted" (pre-approved by me) address.
See <http://www.sonic.net/~dakidd/main/contact.html> for full details.

 

[Nog]

"Norman D. Crow" <Ravens@madbbs.com> wrote in message
news:d67s4s01hs5@enews3.newsguy.com...

"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:59Khe.270$%k3.140@news02.roc.ny...

"spudnuty" <spudnuty@lycos.com> wrote in message
news:1116169743.470050.316980@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
It is quite an easy matter to replace the power cord and ground but
even with a grounded device you're depending on a chain of secure
grounds to keep your tool safe. I would also obtain a GFCI pigtail and
only run your power tools from that. They're required on all jobsites
I've been on and all the electrocutions I've studied have been from
workmen bypassing them.
Richard


A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought
"the other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be
alive and unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is
almost impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal
circumstances. Virtually all the electrocutions on record have been from
4000v or higher.



IT ISN'T THE VOLTAGE! When I was in USN, they had studies showing deaths
from relatively low voltages. It's the amps, or more precisely the
milliamps, and where they travel. A certain milliamp current can be lethal
if it passes through the heart/chest area because it will cause the heart
to go into fibrillation, while a relatively high current may just cause
the heart to stop, but once it is removed the heart will restart on it's
own. I don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
90-100 milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

--
Nahmie
The greatest headaches are those we cause ourselves.

In low voltage the injuries are not usually from the electricity but the
secondary reaction. If you are on a ladder and have an electrical induced
muscle contraction it can throw you off the ladder killing you when you hit
the ground. Likewise if you are holding a screwdriver, you might stab
yourself in the eye/brain. (has happened) You could twitch and drill a hole
in your leg. If it's an electric chain saw .....Did you ever see a chain saw
injury? It gets right to the arteries and you bleed to death fast.
So a properly grounded power tool is safer and a GFI plug is better.

 

[CW]

No doubt.

"LRod" <duckecho@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:jf5f815dvec9nr4h41ro19p3034elev1lq@4ax.com...

Neither of you are (the only one). I do, too. It's too easy to check,
and the potential consequences of not checking are too high.

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <uHRhe.291$Lv3.52@news02.roc.ny>, "toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

"Robatoy" <design@BULLtopworks.ca> wrote in message
news:design-E86876.18202715052005@news.bellglobal.com...
In article <b7Lhe.272$Ye3.210@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the
90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.

You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is
difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
everything!

Where do you get this ? You state this stuff as fact? Do you have ANY
idea how irresponsible you are?

Any electrical book. Ever read one?
Electricians used to test for hot wires by touching it; a little tingle and
it was hot. Thats all it is, a little tingle.

That's right, you ass, just a little tingle IF YOU'RE NOT GROUNDED.

If you *are*, you're risking your life.

Certainly not a recommended

method with modern test equipment available, but not all that dangerous
since they used to get plenty of tingles.

You ever hear this saying?
"There's old electricians, and there's bold electricians. But there ain't no
old, bold electricians."

Measure your resistance,and then figure out the associated current. It is a
lot closer to 0ma than to 100ma.

So by that "reasoning", ground fault circuit interrupters (which trip at 20ma)
are completely unnecessary. Riiiiiiight.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <YRRhe.293$Cx3.211@news02.roc.ny>, "toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

You cannot get a shock from a neutral unless it is open. A closed neutral
(which it would be, unless it were broken) is such a good conductor that
virtually no current would go through you. Until a few years ago dryers and
stoves had the frames connected to the neutral. They are perfectly safe
unless the neutral is broken, and then you may be the best path to ground.

Completely false. You *can* get a shock from a neutral that is not open, if
you provide a good enough alternate, parallel path to ground. And dryers and
stoves with the frames connected to neutral are *not* safe - that's why the
NEC now prohibits that on new installations.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Doug Miller]

In article <TcUhe.148$VB6.83@newssvr12.news.prodigy.com>, "Leon" <removespamlcb11211@swbell.net> wrote:

"CW" <cmagers@earthlink.net> wrote in message
newshLhe.999$Lc1.846@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
Glad I'm not the only one that does that.

"Doug Miller" <spambait@milmac.com> wrote in message
news:zUKhe.46$uH2.12@newssvr31.news.prodigy.com...

Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.


And who says the breaker box was labeled correctly or labeled at all.

Good point. My breaker box and subpanels are labelled correctly *now*, but

they sure weren't when we bought this house. At least a *few* of them were
labelled, and most of those correctly - the two previous houses had *nothing*
labelled.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

 

[Andy Dingley]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 16:52:23 GMT, "toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

But it is difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.

Sure is. The problem is that I'm made of 70% salt water




(and no jokes about 30% tequila and lime juice)

 

[WillR]

toller wrote:

don't remember the exact numbers, but seems like it was around the 90-100
milliamp range that was lethal due to causing fibrillation.


You are correct; 100ma is about the lethal threashold. But it is difficult
to get 100ma off 120v unless you are in saltwater.
Naturally adverse medical conditions, or just plain bad luck, will change
everything!

What colour of flowers would you like at your funeral? Best you let us
know now. If you believe that shit, you are going to take a chance some day.

Risks are one thing -- chance is another.


--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

 

[WillR]

Doug Miller wrote:

In article <59Khe.270$%k3.140@news02.roc.ny>, "toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:


A couple years ago I moved an outlet by putting a hand on each side,
contacting the hot with one and the neutral with the other. (I thought "the
other guy" had opened the breaker) I was rather surprised to be alive and
unhurt afterwards. I did some research and found out it is almost
impossible to get a lethal shock from 120v under normal circumstances.


Once again demonstrating that you have _no_business_ giving electrical advice
to anyone. _Of_course_ it's almost impossible to get a lethal shock under
"normal circumstances" because "normal circumstances" don't include doing
stupid stuff like putting your hands across a live circuit. It's _abnormal_
circumstances that are dangerous, and it is indeed quite possible to receive a
fatal shock from 120V when something has gone wrong - like installing a stove
with its equipment ground connected to the circuit neutral conductor, as you
recently told someone to do.

Aye!!

And only an idiot would assume that "the other guy" had opened the breaker,
and not check first. Hell, I check before touching even when *I* am the guy
that opened the breaker - just to make sure I opened the right one.

Good advice Doug. I do triple checks and am used the the rolled eyes
from "knowledgeable" people. F** em. It's less stress to do what you
suggest, and it's better advice to give.

And I am never embarrassed to have anyone check my work. No one has
never found me to make a wiring error, but if someone asked to check my
work I would say "thank you" and move over. Getting it right and safe is
cheaper than the alternative.

Usually it is the qualified engineers who recognize the value of safety
and QA checks and are never embarrassed to do the required checks, and
are never embarrassed to have someone check their work. It is part of
the training as I recall.

If you work on your own wiring, I hope you live alone. I'd hate to see anyone
else's life jeopardized by your ignorance.

Now now -- jus cause it's true.

--
Regards,
Doug Miller (alphageek at milmac dot com)

Nobody ever left footprints in the sands of time by sitting on his butt.
And who wants to leave buttprints in the sands of time?

--
Will
Occasional Techno-geek

 

[Andy Dingley]

On Sun, 15 May 2005 14:33:36 -0700, "Tim Zimmer" <bravecat@gmail.com>
wrote:

Someone please explain why do some modern factory drills, grinders
and saws get away without a ground plug?

(I'm posting from Europe, your local terms may be different).


All electrical appliances must be insulated, meaning that the live and
neutral feeds are not connected to any accessible part of the appliance.
However things break, and so we must also design them to be moderately
safe even after this insulation fails.

One way it to wrap them in a conducting case and then earth this case.
If they're supplied through an appropriate fuse, then the fault current
(internal "works" to case) is then enough to blow the fuse and make the
appliance safe. For this reason the earth must not only conduct, but it
must conduct _well_.

Another approach is an RCD or GFCI. This measures "earth leakage",
usually be measuring the difference in current between live and neutral
wires. If there's a difference of more than a few mA (i.e. the current
has gone _somewhere_ it's not meant to), then something is wrong and the
RCD trips.

UK wiring has much better appliance fusing than other systems, so until
quite recently (10-20 years) we've been quite lax about using RCDs. US
wiring is a shocking abomination by design and so it's only the huge
number of GFCIs and arcing-fault breakers (a totally alien concept in
the UK) that stop your evil aluminum wiring killing the population of
Detroit weekly.

Around the late '60s, a new approach developed. Plastic was the new
thing, and plastic cased appliances were everywhere. These allowed the
economic use of "double insulated" appliances. They were still insulated
(of course) but now they also had to _remain_ insulated, even after an
internal fault. If the wire fell out of the switch and hit the case,
the case mustn't in turn become "live". Of course with plastics for
cases, this isn't that hard to arrange. Once the standards had got
sorted out and clever designers knew how to work with them, you could
even get such bizarre things as double-insulated hair curlers, where you
stick a big metal heating element on your head, without an earth wire.
Not something _I'm_ going to trust in a hurry, I can tell you.

You can spot double insulated appliances in Europe by the two nested
squares logo. It's also likely that they only have two wire cables, as
you describe. The crucial thing is their internal design though, not
merely missing off the earth wire!

--
Cats have nine lives, which is why they rarely post to Usenet.

 

[toller]

"Robatoy" <design@BULLtopworks.ca> wrote in message
news:design-B9B211.09111616052005@nr-tor01.bellnexxia.net...

In article <uHRhe.291$Lv3.52@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

Any electrical book. Ever read one?

As a matter of fact I did. Many. And I have a piece of paper to prove it.
I went straight from college into a career at Ontario Hydro (the
province-wide power company) in operations.
During my tenure in operations at a 2000 MW power-station, I received an
award for identifying safety problems relating to test procedures in
station service electrical distribution. Again, paper/plaque and
pictures from a dinner in my honour to prove it.
But that's enough about me.

How about you? If you ever DID read anything about electrical
engineering, you must now read some material on interpretative skills
and memory retention, because, buddy, you do not know what you are
talking about.

Aside from being an electrical engineer? (or receiving dozens of 120v shocks
without any ill-effects?)
Without waving your hands and throwing another hissy-fit, dispute one single
thing I have said with documented facts. Do so, and I will never post
regarding electrical issues again.

Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.

 

[Robatoy]

In article <ZN1ie.316$fW3.192@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

I asked you:

How about you?

Answer that first.

Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.

Sometimes both are one and the same.

For instance:

Everyone knows you don't know what you're talking about AND the group
has a documented paper-trail of what you have been posting.

Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

END of discussion with you.

 

[BobS]

Ya know.... this "Robatoy" is sounding more an more like a troll everyday
and appears to have an answer for everything. Not that they're always
correct answers - but he always seem to have one. From Net Nanny to now an
electrical safety expert....hmmmm... gotta wonder. Troll maybe...?

He's about bad mouthed everyone here and sure has one pissy attitude if
anyone conradicts his words of wisdom. I'm on his plonk list anyway so he
won't read this but it sure would be nice if he could provide some useful
information once in awhile instead of alway's arguing a point.

Make the correction if someone makes a mistake in a posting and get on with
life - your whinning is getting real old.

Now back to your regularly scheduled bitchin 'n moaning,


Bob S.

 

[toller]

"Robatoy" <design@BULLtopworks.ca> wrote in message
news:design-A88FD1.10373016052005@nr-tor01.bellnexxia.net...

In article <ZN1ie.316$fW3.192@news02.roc.ny>,
"toller" <toller@yahoo.com> wrote:

I asked you:
How about you?

Answer that first.

Hint; "everyone knows" is not a documented fact.

Sometimes both are one and the same.

For instance:

Everyone knows you don't know what you're talking about AND the group
has a documented paper-trail of what you have been posting.

Besides, I never have a battle of wits with an unarmed person.

END of discussion with you.