Chip with simple program for Toy

[Bret Cahill]

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Imagine if
you have a bunch of these pumping power into power poles laying on the
street after a storm; it becomes an instant fire starter.

I've got a lot of pull in Sweden. I'll personally see to it that
anyone clever enough to solve this complicated problem will be getting
the very first Nobel in Electronics!

But that’s been taken care of too, because the DC to AC inverters
won’t function due to this (also required by law and code) safety
feature built in.

And there is less hope of changing electrical codes than getting the
pope to change his opinion on birth control!

The reason is simple. Electrical codes were written by and for
electricians who like to electrocute untrained scabs too cheap to do
things kosher.

Here’s the relevant code from the inverter
installation manual:

Electrical conformity according to U.S., Canadian and
international safety operating standards and code
requirements:
- UL 1741 – Standard for Inverters, Converters, and
Controllers for Use in Independent Power Systems

And this:

4.2 Protective concepts
The following monitoring and protective functions are
integrated in blue planet inverters:
- BiSI grid monitoring to protect against personal
injuries and avoid islanding effects according to UL 1741

What is “BiSI grid monitoring”? According to E DIN VDE 0126, which is
a year 1999 standard developed in Europe specifically to address the
problem:

The automatic disconnection device is used as a safety interface
between the generator and the public low-voltage distribution net and
serves as a substitute for a disconnecting switch accessible at all
times by the distributing network operator. It prevents the
unintentional supply of electrical energy from the generator into a
subnetwork disconnected from the rest of the distribution grid
(islanding), thereby offering additional protection to the measures
specified in DIN VDE 0105-100 (VDE 0105-100), 6.2 to
- operating staff, against voltage in the disconnected subnetwork
- equipment, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- consumers, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- equipment, against the feed of faults by the generator.

In a nutshell, when the power poles go down, the inverters lose
connectivity to the grid, sense this automatically, and shut
themselves off.

Never mind the fact that grid-tied solar power doesn’t work at night
when you need it most,

Never mind most people sleep at night and only need a few hundred
watts at night for the refrigerator and a few lights which is easily
supplied by a few deep cycle batteries.

never mind the fact that during and after the
storm, solar insolation is drastically reduced due to rain and
cloudiness,

Which lasts all of one or 2 days, not the week or so the power was
out.

and never mind the fact that all electrical systems, solar
or otherwise, are just as susceptible to storm damage as conventional
power infrastructure, there is one important point that kills the
entire idea.

Assuming the solar panels aren’t ripped off the roof by the hurricane/
storm, they are of absolutely no use because the grid-tie is broken,
and the mandated grid-tie safety features prevent the homeowner from
using the inverters to get power locally.

And it's not like anyone in electronics is smart enough to design an
over ride or bypass circuit.


Bret Cahill

 

[Tunderbar]

On Dec 14, 9:58 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Imagine if
you have a bunch of these pumping power into power poles laying on the
street after a storm; it becomes an instant fire starter.

I've got a lot of pull in Sweden.  I'll personally see to it that
anyone clever enough to solve this complicated problem will be getting
the very first Nobel in Electronics!

But that’s been taken care of too, because the DC to AC inverters
won’t function due to this (also required by law and code) safety
feature built in.

And there is less hope of changing electrical codes than getting the
pope to change his opinion on birth control!

The reason is simple.  Electrical codes were written by and for
electricians who like to electrocute untrained scabs too cheap to do
things kosher.









Here’s the relevant code from the inverter
installation manual:

Electrical conformity according to U.S., Canadian and
international safety operating standards and code
requirements:
- UL 1741 – Standard for Inverters, Converters, and
Controllers for Use in Independent Power Systems

And this:

4.2 Protective concepts
The following monitoring and protective functions are
integrated in blue planet inverters:
- BiSI grid monitoring to protect against personal
injuries and avoid islanding effects according to UL 1741

What is “BiSI grid monitoring”? According to E DIN VDE 0126, which is
a year 1999 standard developed in Europe specifically to address the
problem:

The automatic disconnection device is used as a safety interface
between the generator and the public low-voltage distribution net and
serves as a substitute for a disconnecting switch accessible at all
times by the distributing network operator. It prevents the
unintentional supply of electrical energy from the generator into a
subnetwork disconnected from the rest of the distribution grid
(islanding), thereby offering additional protection to the measures
specified in DIN VDE 0105-100 (VDE 0105-100), 6.2 to
- operating staff, against voltage in the disconnected subnetwork
- equipment, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- consumers, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- equipment, against the feed of faults by the generator.

In a nutshell, when the power poles go down, the inverters lose
connectivity to the grid, sense this automatically, and shut
themselves off.

Never mind the fact that grid-tied solar power doesn’t work at night
when you need it most,

Never mind most people sleep at night and only need a few hundred
watts at night for the refrigerator and a few lights which is easily
supplied by a few deep cycle batteries.

never mind the fact that during and after the
storm, solar insolation is drastically reduced due to rain and
cloudiness,

Which lasts all of one or 2 days, not the week or so the power was
out.

and never mind the fact that all electrical systems, solar
or otherwise, are just as susceptible to storm damage as conventional
power infrastructure, there is one important point that kills the
entire idea.

Assuming the solar panels aren’t ripped off the roof by the hurricane/
storm, they are of absolutely no use because the grid-tie is broken,
and the mandated grid-tie safety features prevent the homeowner from
using the inverters to get power locally.

And it's not like anyone in electronics is smart enough to design an
over ride or bypass circuit.

Bret Cahill

You keep asking what my point is. Read the subject line you moron:

Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and David Crane have no clue about how grid
tied solar power actually works with the grid

 

[Bret Cahill]

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Imagine if
you have a bunch of these pumping power into power poles laying on the
street after a storm; it becomes an instant fire starter.

I've got a lot of pull in Sweden.  I'll personally see to it that
anyone clever enough to solve this complicated problem will be getting
the very first Nobel in Electronics!

But that’s been taken care of too, because the DC to AC inverters
won’t function due to this (also required by law and code) safety
feature built in.

And there is less hope of changing electrical codes than getting the
pope to change his opinion on birth control!

The reason is simple.  Electrical codes were written by and for
electricians who like to electrocute untrained scabs too cheap to do
things kosher.

Here’s the relevant code from the inverter
installation manual:

Electrical conformity according to U.S., Canadian and
international safety operating standards and code
requirements:
- UL 1741 – Standard for Inverters, Converters, and
Controllers for Use in Independent Power Systems

And this:

4.2 Protective concepts
The following monitoring and protective functions are
integrated in blue planet inverters:
- BiSI grid monitoring to protect against personal
injuries and avoid islanding effects according to UL 1741

What is “BiSI grid monitoring”? According to E DIN VDE 0126, which is
a year 1999 standard developed in Europe specifically to address the
problem:

The automatic disconnection device is used as a safety interface
between the generator and the public low-voltage distribution net and
serves as a substitute for a disconnecting switch accessible at all
times by the distributing network operator. It prevents the
unintentional supply of electrical energy from the generator into a
subnetwork disconnected from the rest of the distribution grid
(islanding), thereby offering additional protection to the measures
specified in DIN VDE 0105-100 (VDE 0105-100), 6.2 to
- operating staff, against voltage in the disconnected subnetwork
- equipment, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- consumers, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- equipment, against the feed of faults by the generator.

In a nutshell, when the power poles go down, the inverters lose
connectivity to the grid, sense this automatically, and shut
themselves off.

Never mind the fact that grid-tied solar power doesn’t work at night
when you need it most,

Never mind most people sleep at night and only need a few hundred
watts at night for the refrigerator and a few lights which is easily
supplied by a few deep cycle batteries.

never mind the fact that during and after the
storm, solar insolation is drastically reduced due to rain and
cloudiness,

Which lasts all of one or 2 days, not the week or so the power was
out.

and never mind the fact that all electrical systems, solar
or otherwise, are just as susceptible to storm damage as conventional
power infrastructure, there is one important point that kills the
entire idea.

Assuming the solar panels aren’t ripped off the roof by the hurricane/
storm, they are of absolutely no use because the grid-tie is broken,
and the mandated grid-tie safety features prevent the homeowner from
using the inverters to get power locally.

And it's not like anyone in electronics is smart enough to design an
over ride or bypass circuit.

Bret Cahill

You keep asking what my point is.

Actually that was asked exactly once and you dodged the question.

Here, try again:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?


Bret Cahill

 

In sci.physics Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

One point would be that it is flat ass illegal in most all jurisdictions
to have a grid tie system that feeds power into the grid if the grid isn't
delivering power.

In simple terms that means that if your grid tie system electrocutes a
worker, you are likely going to jail for manslaughter.

<snip remaining mindless babble>

 

[Tunderbar]

On Dec 14, 10:29 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Imagine if
you have a bunch of these pumping power into power poles laying on the
street after a storm; it becomes an instant fire starter.

I've got a lot of pull in Sweden.  I'll personally see to it that
anyone clever enough to solve this complicated problem will be getting
the very first Nobel in Electronics!

But that’s been taken care of too, because the DC to AC inverters
won’t function due to this (also required by law and code) safety
feature built in.

And there is less hope of changing electrical codes than getting the
pope to change his opinion on birth control!

The reason is simple.  Electrical codes were written by and for
electricians who like to electrocute untrained scabs too cheap to do
things kosher.

Here’s the relevant code from the inverter
installation manual:

Electrical conformity according to U.S., Canadian and
international safety operating standards and code
requirements:
- UL 1741 – Standard for Inverters, Converters, and
Controllers for Use in Independent Power Systems

And this:

4.2 Protective concepts
The following monitoring and protective functions are
integrated in blue planet inverters:
- BiSI grid monitoring to protect against personal
injuries and avoid islanding effects according to UL 1741

What is “BiSI grid monitoring”? According to E DIN VDE 0126, which is
a year 1999 standard developed in Europe specifically to address the
problem:

The automatic disconnection device is used as a safety interface
between the generator and the public low-voltage distribution net and
serves as a substitute for a disconnecting switch accessible at all
times by the distributing network operator. It prevents the
unintentional supply of electrical energy from the generator into a
subnetwork disconnected from the rest of the distribution grid
(islanding), thereby offering additional protection to the measures
specified in DIN VDE 0105-100 (VDE 0105-100), 6.2 to
- operating staff, against voltage in the disconnected subnetwork
- equipment, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- consumers, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- equipment, against the feed of faults by the generator.

In a nutshell, when the power poles go down, the inverters lose
connectivity to the grid, sense this automatically, and shut
themselves off.

Never mind the fact that grid-tied solar power doesn’t work at night
when you need it most,

Never mind most people sleep at night and only need a few hundred
watts at night for the refrigerator and a few lights which is easily
supplied by a few deep cycle batteries.

never mind the fact that during and after the
storm, solar insolation is drastically reduced due to rain and
cloudiness,

Which lasts all of one or 2 days, not the week or so the power was
out.

and never mind the fact that all electrical systems, solar
or otherwise, are just as susceptible to storm damage as conventional
power infrastructure, there is one important point that kills the
entire idea.

Assuming the solar panels aren’t ripped off the roof by the hurricane/
storm, they are of absolutely no use because the grid-tie is broken,
and the mandated grid-tie safety features prevent the homeowner from
using the inverters to get power locally.

And it's not like anyone in electronics is smart enough to design an
over ride or bypass circuit.

Bret Cahill

You keep asking what my point is.

Actually that was asked exactly once and you dodged the question.

Here, try again:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Read much? If you read the post you'd know what the point is.

I will dumb this down for you. Hopefully it'll really really dumbed
down and you'll actually understand it. But I doubt it, because it
seems you don't want to understand the simplest things. You just want
to spin it and make up strawman arguments against anything I say. Then
you play the troll and regardless of what I say you make shit up and
argue forever with you constantly moving the goalposts, making shit up
and trolling for the last word.

Here is my last word to you on this particular topic.

This is the point:

What Kennedy and Crane suggest that people do can and will get them
killed because they know fuck-all about what they talk about,
specifically hooking up wind or solar devices to their household power
system.

Now go fuck yourself, you moronic troll.

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Bret Cahill

 

[Bret Cahill]

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Imagine if
you have a bunch of these pumping power into power poles laying on the
street after a storm; it becomes an instant fire starter.

I've got a lot of pull in Sweden.  I'll personally see to it that
anyone clever enough to solve this complicated problem will be getting
the very first Nobel in Electronics!

But that’s been taken care of too, because the DC to AC inverters
won’t function due to this (also required by law and code) safety
feature built in.

And there is less hope of changing electrical codes than getting the
pope to change his opinion on birth control!

The reason is simple.  Electrical codes were written by and for
electricians who like to electrocute untrained scabs too cheap to do
things kosher.

Here’s the relevant code from the inverter
installation manual:

Electrical conformity according to U.S., Canadian and
international safety operating standards and code
requirements:
- UL 1741 – Standard for Inverters, Converters, and
Controllers for Use in Independent Power Systems

And this:

4.2 Protective concepts
The following monitoring and protective functions are
integrated in blue planet inverters:
- BiSI grid monitoring to protect against personal
injuries and avoid islanding effects according to UL 1741

What is “BiSI grid monitoring”? According to E DIN VDE 0126, which is
a year 1999 standard developed in Europe specifically to address the
problem:

The automatic disconnection device is used as a safety interface
between the generator and the public low-voltage distribution net and
serves as a substitute for a disconnecting switch accessible at all
times by the distributing network operator. It prevents the
unintentional supply of electrical energy from the generator into a
subnetwork disconnected from the rest of the distribution grid
(islanding), thereby offering additional protection to the measures
specified in DIN VDE 0105-100 (VDE 0105-100), 6.2 to
- operating staff, against voltage in the disconnected subnetwork
- equipment, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- consumers, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- equipment, against the feed of faults by the generator.

In a nutshell, when the power poles go down, the inverters lose
connectivity to the grid, sense this automatically, and shut
themselves off.

Never mind the fact that grid-tied solar power doesn’t work at night
when you need it most,

Never mind most people sleep at night and only need a few hundred
watts at night for the refrigerator and a few lights which is easily
supplied by a few deep cycle batteries.

never mind the fact that during and after the
storm, solar insolation is drastically reduced due to rain and
cloudiness,

Which lasts all of one or 2 days, not the week or so the power was
out.

and never mind the fact that all electrical systems, solar
or otherwise, are just as susceptible to storm damage as conventional
power infrastructure, there is one important point that kills the
entire idea.

Assuming the solar panels aren’t ripped off the roof by the hurricane/
storm, they are of absolutely no use because the grid-tie is broken,
and the mandated grid-tie safety features prevent the homeowner from
using the inverters to get power locally.

And it's not like anyone in electronics is smart enough to design an
over ride or bypass circuit.

Bret Cahill

You keep asking what my point is.

Actually that was asked exactly once and you dodged the question.

Here, try again:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Read much?

Are you projecting or 'fessin' ip?

Anyway you keep dodging the question.

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There may be some opportunity for power circuit designers here. After
all, some are getting thousands of dollars for grid ties, an
unsustainable rip off.

But I doubt it.

A denier site is as worthless as Al Gore in a dust devil when it comes
to tech tips.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/12/13/nyt-robert-f-kennedy-jr-and-david-crane-have-no-clue-about-how-grid-tied-solar-power-actually-works-with-the-grid/


Bret Cahill

 

[James]

"Tunderbar" <tdcomeau@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:ed62c6be-7c29-4b9b-b987-4d7da2dc5555@x10g2000yqx.googlegroups.com

On Dec 14, 10:29 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:
The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in
your neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t
careful doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking
that after they pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the
wires.

This is the point:

What Kennedy and Crane suggest that people do can and will get them
killed because they know fuck-all about what they talk about,
specifically hooking up wind or solar devices to their household power
system.

Now go fuck yourself, you moronic troll.

Just add him to the same category with Kennedy and Crane. He can't help
it.

 

In sci.physics Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

One point would be that it is flat ass illegal in most all jurisdictions
to have a grid tie system that feeds power into the grid if the grid isn't
delivering power.

No one suggested you were bright enough to solve that problem.

As usual Cahill is so far out in la-la land that he has no clue.

FYI the systems to do grid tie with grid sensing inverters that interrupt
the connection to the grid if the grid power is lost have been around for
many years.

They are not cheap nor, in most jurisdictions, can you install them
yourself unless you happen to be a licensed electrician, have a building
permit, and notify the utility.

All of which compounds to make a legally installed PV system expensive
as hell and useless at night unless you want to at least double the already
high cost by having battery backup.

 

[Bret Cahill]

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

One point would be that it is flat ass illegal in most all jurisdictions
to have a grid tie system that feeds power into the grid if the grid isn't
delivering power.

No one suggested you were bright enough to solve that problem.

 

[Bret Cahill]

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

One point would be that it is flat ass illegal in most all jurisdictions
to have a grid tie system that feeds power into the grid if the grid isn't
delivering power.

No one suggested you were bright enough to solve that problem.

As usual Cahill is so far out in la-la land that he has no clue.

You ever figger out the connection between Reynolds Numbers and
aerodynamics?

FYI the systems to do grid tie with grid sensing inverters that interrupt
the connection to the grid if the grid power is lost have been around for
many years.

They are not cheap

Sounds like there may be some opportunities in power electronics after
all.

But sounds like and reality are 2 different things.

Before anyone wastes much time inventing improvements to grid ties
keep in mind that the denier "community" has been dropping by 10% a
year and Watts has been forced to bottom fish for and increasingly
moronic audience.

 

In sci.physics Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

One point would be that it is flat ass illegal in most all jurisdictions
to have a grid tie system that feeds power into the grid if the grid isn't
delivering power.

No one suggested you were bright enough to solve that problem.

As usual Cahill is so far out in la-la land that he has no clue.

You ever figger out the connection between Reynolds Numbers and
aerodynamics?

A long time ago and it isn't the sole, only, and totally determining factor
for how something flys as you believe.

If it were, cannon balls and soap bubbles, which have identical Reynold's
number, would fly identically.

FYI the systems to do grid tie with grid sensing inverters that interrupt
the connection to the grid if the grid power is lost have been around for
many years.

They are not cheap

Sounds like there may be some opportunities in power electronics after
all.

Sounds like you didn't understand anything at all.

There are two types of inverter systems and both have been around for many
years.

By far the most common type, and the cheapest, removes the power from the
inverter, thus no output to the grid or anything else. Most systems use
this type.

The second type disconnects the inverter output from the grid yet maintains
the local connection. This type is far more expensive and is rarely found in
a home installation because of the high cost.

<snip idiot babble>

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 12/14/2012 5:56 PM, Phil Allison wrote:

"William Sommerwerck"
"Phil Allison"

** What "issue" is that ??

There are actually two issues.

One... A halogen lamp has to run at or above the temperature at which the
tungsten is redeposited on the filament more rapidly than it evaporates.


** Irrelevant.

The TRUTH is that the re-deposited metal does NOT repair the damage done to
the filament - there are many pics that show this.

The halogen cycle merely keeps the quartz glass clean !!


This temperature is presumably well-above the temperature of a
conventional incandescent lamp. It's reasonable to assume that reducing
the filament voltage some unstated amount will lower the temperature below
the critical recycling temperature, but still high enough to cause the
filament to rapidly burn out. No one here seems to have any information
about this.


** The simple fact is that halogen lamps do NOT have especially long lives -
any more than non halogen lamps with the same filaments.

You're right about the halogen being there to keep the glass clean, but
not about the longer life. A 3400K mogul-base photoflood, like the ones
I used to use in the 1970s, has a lifetime of about 25 hours.

The high gas pressure inside quartz-halogen bulbs is what requires the
very thick quartz envelopes. High pressure slows down the diffusion of
tungsten vapour away from the hot spots, so that metal is selectively
redeposited near where it evaporated. That improves the lifetime by a
pretty useful factor like 20, and that's apples-to-apples, both 120V 500W.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs


--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510 USA
+1 845 480 2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[G=EMC^2]

On Dec 14, 11:29 am, Bret Cahill <BretCah...@peoplepc.com> wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Imagine if
you have a bunch of these pumping power into power poles laying on the
street after a storm; it becomes an instant fire starter.

I've got a lot of pull in Sweden.  I'll personally see to it that
anyone clever enough to solve this complicated problem will be getting
the very first Nobel in Electronics!

But that’s been taken care of too, because the DC to AC inverters
won’t function due to this (also required by law and code) safety
feature built in.

And there is less hope of changing electrical codes than getting the
pope to change his opinion on birth control!

The reason is simple.  Electrical codes were written by and for
electricians who like to electrocute untrained scabs too cheap to do
things kosher.

Here’s the relevant code from the inverter
installation manual:

Electrical conformity according to U.S., Canadian and
international safety operating standards and code
requirements:
- UL 1741 – Standard for Inverters, Converters, and
Controllers for Use in Independent Power Systems

And this:

4.2 Protective concepts
The following monitoring and protective functions are
integrated in blue planet inverters:
- BiSI grid monitoring to protect against personal
injuries and avoid islanding effects according to UL 1741

What is “BiSI grid monitoring”? According to E DIN VDE 0126, which is
a year 1999 standard developed in Europe specifically to address the
problem:

The automatic disconnection device is used as a safety interface
between the generator and the public low-voltage distribution net and
serves as a substitute for a disconnecting switch accessible at all
times by the distributing network operator. It prevents the
unintentional supply of electrical energy from the generator into a
subnetwork disconnected from the rest of the distribution grid
(islanding), thereby offering additional protection to the measures
specified in DIN VDE 0105-100 (VDE 0105-100), 6.2 to
- operating staff, against voltage in the disconnected subnetwork
- equipment, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- consumers, against inadmissible voltages and frequencies
- equipment, against the feed of faults by the generator.

In a nutshell, when the power poles go down, the inverters lose
connectivity to the grid, sense this automatically, and shut
themselves off.

Never mind the fact that grid-tied solar power doesn’t work at night
when you need it most,

Never mind most people sleep at night and only need a few hundred
watts at night for the refrigerator and a few lights which is easily
supplied by a few deep cycle batteries.

never mind the fact that during and after the
storm, solar insolation is drastically reduced due to rain and
cloudiness,

Which lasts all of one or 2 days, not the week or so the power was
out.

and never mind the fact that all electrical systems, solar
or otherwise, are just as susceptible to storm damage as conventional
power infrastructure, there is one important point that kills the
entire idea.

Assuming the solar panels aren’t ripped off the roof by the hurricane/
storm, they are of absolutely no use because the grid-tie is broken,
and the mandated grid-tie safety features prevent the homeowner from
using the inverters to get power locally.

And it's not like anyone in electronics is smart enough to design an
over ride or bypass circuit.

Bret Cahill

You keep asking what my point is.

Actually that was asked exactly once and you dodged the question.

Here, try again:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Bret Cahill

Turn the main switch off and be safe.That stops the flow. TeBet

 

[P E Schoen]

"G=EMC^2" wrote in message
news:436d7778-c96e-48c2-85a1-959e1c44d103@ci3g2000vbb.googlegroups.com...

Turn the main switch off and be safe.That stops the flow. TeBet

Please learn to trim your posts (not just you - just sayin')

It seems like a rather silly argument in the "Watts Up" blog, and here,
although some important points are made.

For one thing, AFAIK, utility workers will usually throw shorting jumpers
across lines that are supposed to be de-energized, as precautionary
insurance. I once worked on-site during a shut-down where I entered the
space behind the circuit breaker cubicles, and before I did, a heavy chain
was thrown across the bus bars. Then I could safely torque all the
connections as part of the PM we were performing.

Also, there are two distinct types of grid-tie systems, and perhaps the most
common and cheapest is the type that shuts down all of the AC power from the
solar panels. This is especially true for smaller installations where the
panels cannot support the entire electrical load of the house. But it is
simple enough to install a transfer switch and connect the solar powered AC
to a dedicated emergency circuit to provide basic lighting and perhaps some
refrigeration, fans, communication and entertainment devices.

Batteries are an important part of any backup power system, and need not be
excessively expensive. Lead-acid batteries can be obtained for about
$60/kWh, and it is possible to power most necessary appliances at 500 Wh
average, so for aout $1200 you can have 20 kWh standby energy which should
last about 2 days, or more, with frugal use.

Electric vehicles also can supply a source of backup power. Their battery
packs are usually also about 20 kWh, although they are typically Lithium
which is about 6-8 times more costly, although higher efficiency and longer
life reduces that comparison.

People have become addicted to a continuous supply of electricity and
heating fuel and become frantic if an outage lasts more than a few hours.
The "investigations" about supposed lack of appropriately fast response and
"targeting" low income residents after major disasters such as Katrina and
Sandy are politically motivated. It is a lack of personal responsibility and
intelligence that causes people to suffer and do stupid things like heating
their houses with gas ovens or using generators indoors. Not everyone can
install a woodstove and have a lot of dead trees for fuel as I do, but you
can invest in good sleeping bags and warm clothing and have kerosene or
propane space heaters for which fuel can be stored safely.

But there is a growing problem with lack of attention to our aging
infrastructure, and there are a lot fewer utility workers now than there
were perhaps 20 years ago, so routine maintenance and replacement of
equipment is postponed to boost immediate profits which then vanish when
major emergency work is needed during disasters. Where are all the jobs?
There is more than enough work to employ everyone willing and able to work,
replacing water and gas pipelines and moving electrical distribution systems
underground where they will be mostly immune to storms. And the money to pay
them can come from the money which is NOT spent on emergency efforts
required because of the lack of proactive investment.

Paul

 

In sci.physics Bret Cahill <BretCahill@peoplepc.com> wrote:

A swarm earthquake party held out in a parking lot a good distance
from tall buildings would be much safer than any hurricane party.

By the time anyone got to the party, the earthquakes would be long over.

 

[Bret Cahill]

Turn the main switch off and be safe.That stops the flow. TeBet

Please learn to trim your posts (not just you - just sayin')

It seems like a rather silly argument in the "Watts Up" blog, and here,
although some important points are made.

For one thing, AFAIK, utility workers will usually throw shorting jumpers
across lines that are supposed to be de-energized, as precautionary
insurance. I once worked on-site during a shut-down where I entered the
space behind the circuit breaker cubicles, and before I did, a heavy chain
was thrown across the bus bars. Then I could safely torque all the
connections as part of the PM we were performing.

Also, there are two distinct types of grid-tie systems, and perhaps the most
common and cheapest is the type that shuts down all of the AC power from the
solar panels. This is especially true for smaller installations where the
panels cannot support the entire electrical load of the house. But it is
simple enough to install a transfer switch and connect the solar powered AC
to a dedicated emergency circuit to provide basic lighting and perhaps some
refrigeration, fans, communication and entertainment devices.

Batteries are an important part of any backup power system, and need not be
excessively expensive. Lead-acid batteries can be obtained for about
$60/kWh, and it is possible to power most necessary appliances at 500 Wh
average, so for aout $1200 you can have 20 kWh standby energy which should
last about 2 days, or more, with frugal use.

Electric vehicles also can supply a source of backup power. Their battery
packs are usually also about 20 kWh, although they are typically Lithium
which is about 6-8 times more costly, although higher efficiency and longer
life reduces that comparison.

People have become addicted to a continuous supply of electricity and
heating fuel and become frantic if an outage lasts more than a few hours.
The "investigations" about supposed lack of appropriately fast response and
"targeting" low income residents after major disasters such as Katrina and
Sandy are politically motivated. It is a lack of personal responsibility and
intelligence that causes people to suffer and do stupid things like heating
their houses with gas ovens or using generators indoors. Not everyone can
install a woodstove and have a lot of dead trees for fuel as I do, but you
can invest in good sleeping bags and warm clothing and have kerosene or
propane space heaters for which fuel can be stored safely.

But there is a growing problem with lack of attention to our aging
infrastructure, and there are a lot fewer utility workers now than there
were perhaps 20 years ago, so routine maintenance and replacement of
equipment is postponed to boost immediate profits

So many transformers caught fire / exploded the last swarm earthquake
the fire dept. spent most of its time cruising the streets looking at
power lines.

which then vanish when
major emergency work is needed during disasters.

The earthquakes crescendoed to 5.0 -- 2 mile distant epicenters.
Water mains were breaking before my eyes. My front bicycle tire lost
traction. Families were assembled out in front of their houses.

I started getting jittery. I asked an acquaintence in LA about an
emergency plan. He laughed, "Those dumb lazy f-----s don't have an
emergency plan."

That's when I realized that the East Coast had a disaster-cultural
advantage over the West Coast.

Hurricane parties.

A swarm earthquake party held out in a parking lot a good distance
from tall buildings would be much safer than any hurricane party.

A stiff drink would really calm the nerves.

In fact I never drink during a hurricane because I love slop surf.

Both coasts have it exactly backwards.

Where are all the jobs?
There is more than enough work to employ everyone willing and able to work,
replacing water and gas pipelines and moving electrical distribution systems
underground where they will be mostly immune to storms. And the money to pay
them can come from the money which is NOT spent on emergency efforts
required because of the lack of proactive investment.

Paul

 

[HVAC]

On 12/14/2012 9:18 PM, G=EMC^2 wrote:

The issue is this, if you have grid tied power sources running in your
neighborhood, and they are producing power, anyone who isn’t careful
doing electrical work could get electrocuted thinking that after they
pulled the main breaker, there is no power in the wires.

And anyone who isn't careful could get electrocuted climbing into a
substation

What's your point?

Ignorant people might kill themselves doing something they weren't
properly trained to do?

Is this some kind of astounding new revelation?

Bret Cahill

Turn the main switch off and be safe.That stops the flow. TeBet

OK Important safety tip...Thanks, Bert.







--
"OK you cunts, let's see what you can do now" -Hit Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjO7kBqTFqo .. 变亮
http://www.richardgingras.com/tia/images/tia_logo_large.jpg

 

[HVAC]

On 12/14/2012 9:57 PM, P E Schoen wrote:

But there is a growing problem with lack of attention to our aging
infrastructure, and there are a lot fewer utility workers now than there
were perhaps 20 years ago, so routine maintenance and replacement of
equipment is postponed to boost immediate profits which then vanish when
major emergency work is needed during disasters. Where are all the jobs?
There is more than enough work to employ everyone willing and able to
work, replacing water and gas pipelines and moving electrical
distribution systems underground where they will be mostly immune to
storms. And the money to pay them can come from the money which is NOT
spent on emergency efforts required because of the lack of proactive
investment.

You can say that again. Obama squandered a trillion dollars on a so
called stimulus and we have NOTHING to show for it. I don't leave
republicans out either, Bush blew about 400 billion and we got jack for
THAT money. If we had done these things you suggest with that trillion,
how low do you think the unemployment rate would be? And at the end we
would have some return on the investment.


--
"OK you cunts, let's see what you can do now" -Hit Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjO7kBqTFqo .. 变亮
http://www.richardgingras.com/tia/images/tia_logo_large.jpg

 

[HVAC]

On 12/15/2012 3:00 PM, G=EMC^2 wrote:

But there is a growing problem with lack of attention to our aging
infrastructure, and there are a lot fewer utility workers now than there
were perhaps 20 years ago, so routine maintenance and replacement of
equipment is postponed to boost immediate profits which then vanish when
major emergency work is needed during disasters. Where are all the jobs?
There is more than enough work to employ everyone willing and able to
work, replacing water and gas pipelines and moving electrical
distribution systems underground where they will be mostly immune to
storms. And the money to pay them can come from the money which is NOT
spent on emergency efforts required because of the lack of proactive
investment.

You can say that again. Obama squandered a trillion dollars on a so
called stimulus and we have NOTHING to show for it. I don't leave
republicans out either, Bush blew about 400 billion and we got jack for
THAT money. If we had done these things you suggest with that trillion,
how low do you think the unemployment rate would be? And at the end we
would have some return on the investment.

--
Bush gave rich bankers .3.7 trillion,and put us in hock with China 1.3
tillion,and started 3 wars. CNN pole has GOPers blamed fo the mess USA
is in TeBet

Bert: You are a clueless cocksucker and your opinion doesn't count.


PS- Have a nice day!




--
"OK you cunts, let's see what you can do now" -Hit Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjO7kBqTFqo .. 变亮
http://www.richardgingras.com/tia/images/tia_logo_large.jpg

 

[HVAC]

On 12/15/2012 3:05 PM, Bret Cahill wrote:

If the panels are on the roof, the roof structure should be glued on
to survive hurricane wind speeds. The reason Hurricane Andrew leveled
Florida City was homebuilders didn't even bother to waste $20 on
nails. If you spend $20 on nails, then you need to pay someone to
hammer the nails, etc. so you won't be a competitive homebuilder if
you use nails in Florida.

No building codes?




--
"OK you cunts, let's see what you can do now" -Hit Girl
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CjO7kBqTFqo .. 变亮
http://www.richardgingras.com/tia/images/tia_logo_large.jpg