Chip with simple program for Toy

Jim Thompson · Sep 29, 2004

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:16:25 -0400, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

In article <foi6mvga3cj9e9tuknja2j9ims065ub4hg@4ax.com>, Jim-
T@golana-will-get-you.com says...
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 08:19:09 -0700, Jim Thompson
Jim-T@golana-will-get-you.com> wrote:

I forgot one thing... sending HTML in E-mail should be a felony ;-)

Ok, what is your proposal for those who post to the Usenet using
HTML? ...I gotta hear this! ;-)

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Ben Pope · Sep 29, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:16:25 -0400, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> wrote:
Ok, what is your proposal for those who post to the Usenet using
HTML? ...I gotta hear this! ;-)

Nailed to the ground over an ant hill with a naked virgin standing
over him ;-)

Very creative. But I don't see why such a person deserves to have a naked
virgin standing over him... thats more than I get... and I do my best to
bottom-post trim and sometimes be helpful. On occasion, anyway.

Ben
--
I'm not just a number. To many, I'm known as a String...

Jim Thompson · Sep 29, 2004

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:35:12 +0100, "Ben Pope" <spam@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:16:25 -0400, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> wrote:
Ok, what is your proposal for those who post to the Usenet using
HTML? ...I gotta hear this! ;-)

Nailed to the ground over an ant hill with a naked virgin standing
over him ;-)

Very creative. But I don't see why such a person deserves to have a naked
virgin standing over him... thats more than I get... and I do my best to
bottom-post trim and sometimes be helpful. On occasion, anyway.

Ben

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Jim Thompson · Sep 29, 2004

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 08:37:03 -0700, Jim Thompson
<Jim-T@golana-will-get-you.com> wrote:

On Sun, 14 Sep 2003 16:35:12 +0100, "Ben Pope" <spam@hotmail.com
wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003 22:16:25 -0400, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> wrote:
Ok, what is your proposal for those who post to the Usenet using
HTML? ...I gotta hear this! ;-)

Nailed to the ground over an ant hill with a naked virgin standing
over him ;-)

Very creative. But I don't see why such a person deserves to have a naked
virgin standing over him... thats more than I get... and I do my best to
bottom-post trim and sometimes be helpful. On occasion, anyway.

Ben

The naked virgin is to entice a *hard* attraction for the ants ;-)

...Jim Thompson

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Ben Pope · Sep 29, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

The naked virgin is to entice a *hard* attraction for the ants ;-)

...Jim Thompson

If necessary, we will coat appropriate parts with honey ;-)

Ahh, I see.

And less of this "we" business... do what you will with honey but I'm not
getting involved.

Ben
--
I'm not just a number. To many, I'm known as a String...

JeffM · Sep 29, 2004

You obviously don't live in Yeppoon QLD Australia...shipping costs...
Shane Kirkman

Dan Fraser
From Costa Mesa in sunny California

Don't go thinking that you have it so bad.
I live ~10 miles north of Dan
and we have to put up with flakey elections
and that Paradise Tax thing.

Andrew Howard · Sep 29, 2004

=rant alert=

You're right about electronics in Australia. I live just north of Sydney,
NSW and there are still a huge number of parts that are not available
locally. Most ICs that aren't anything basic (eg. NE555, or LM741) have to
be ordered from America. Being a student without a credit card, or parent's
permission to use theirs, it is hard to make anything reasonably uncommon.

Example: I wanted to build a function generator from an internet circuit.
Most circuits use the MAX038, which I cannot find. It is annoying to find
the perfect circuit for your needs which has parts not available. Sure,
there are alternatives, but they aren't as commonly used in schematics, and
usually expensive.

Another crap thing is that all of the local stores are going into consumer
electronics, instead of components, kits, tools, etc. Dick Smith has got its
Powerhouse thingo (with tvs, music, cameras, games, etc BUT CRAP ALL
ELECTRONICS), meanwhile Jaycar is releasing a range of haloween toys, remote
controlled cars, tweety birdy thingits, fart jokes, etc. Wow.

There you go. There is my rant for the day.

PS. I have no idea of the original conversation, so if I stepped in
something, please excuse me.

Andrew Howard

"Shane Kirkman" <shanekirkman@yahoo.com.au> wrote in message
news:bjuup1$n2ale$1@ID-197890.news.uni-berlin.de...

You obviously don't live in Yeppoon QLD Australia, and only have DickSmith
available. And no, ordering over the net is out due to shipping costs and
no
creditcard.

"Dan Fraser" <dmfraser@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
newsHy8b.135$Aw1.13010046@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...
Why? This is a part that is not all that hard to get.

--
Dan Fraser

From Costa Mesa in sunny California
949-631-7535 Cell 714-420-7535

Check out my electronic schematics site at:
http://www.schematicsforfree.com
If you are into cars check out www.roadsters.com

JeffM · Sep 29, 2004

all of the local stores are going into consumer electronics,
instead of components, kits, tools, etc.
Andrew Howard

Get used to it.
Having been in the field as long as I have,
I've gone from a time when you could build a Heathkit TV
cheaper than you could buy one
to a time when it's the rare thing which you can build cheaper than you can buy.
Integrated circuits and economies of scale in manufacturing
have changed the field radically in 30 years.
The repairability of things is such that, again,
it's the rare item which you can get repaired cheaper than you can replace.

R. Steve Walz · Sep 29, 2004

JeffM wrote:

all of the local stores are going into consumer electronics,
instead of components, kits, tools, etc.
Andrew Howard

Get used to it.
Having been in the field as long as I have,
I've gone from a time when you could build a Heathkit TV
cheaper than you could buy one
to a time when it's the rare thing which you can build cheaper than you can buy.
-------------

Nonsense. The kits are gone, but you can still build many things
cheap or with nearly no cost from salvaged parts if you know how,
and you can save yourself thousands and enhance your life in ways
you couldn't possibly afford to buy.

Integrated circuits and economies of scale in manufacturing
have changed the field radically in 30 years.
-------------

Yes, they've made complex circuits integrated and cheap to build
with.

The repairability of things is such that, again,
it's the rare item which you can get repaired cheaper than you can replace.
---------------

Also nonsense, most failures are still trivial, usually cheap
components, or resoldering. Repair people just overcharge because
people don't have things repaired much anymore, so they need the
income.

Spoiled and techno-illiterate young and oldsters are under the
delusion that once something fails that it is "no good" and they
buy a new one. This comes from nothing more than a poor science and
technical education.

If we taught kids how to build with junk parts, they'd probably
turn it into the national sport, just in robot wars and robotic
hobbyism alone. The knowledge needed to use junked parts is so
trivial as to be unbelievable that anyone would avoid learning it,
once you know it.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

Andrew Howard · Sep 29, 2004

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message
news:3F67FBFB.1B6B@armory.com...

Get used to it.
Having been in the field as long as I have,
I've gone from a time when you could build a Heathkit TV
cheaper than you could buy one
to a time when it's the rare thing which you can build cheaper than you
can buy.
-------------
Nonsense. The kits are gone, but you can still build many things
cheap or with nearly no cost from salvaged parts if you know how,
and you can save yourself thousands and enhance your life in ways
you couldn't possibly afford to buy.

That is what I am doing. A student with a McDonalds wage can't afford much,

so I have asked everyone I know to give me any broken electronics stuff.
I usually try to repair it, and then give it back. Failing that though, I
pull it apart and take the parts.
So far I have built myself a couple of small amps, light flasher things,
etc, from scavenged parts. It's lots of fun cramming bits onto experimenters
board, and actually have it work.

Andrew Howard

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun · Sep 29, 2004

In article <f8b945bc.0309150028.2f38a43f@posting.google.com>,
jeffm_@email.com mentioned...

You obviously don't live in Yeppoon QLD Australia...shipping costs...
Shane Kirkman

Dan Fraser
From Costa Mesa in sunny California

Don't go thinking that you have it so bad.
I live ~10 miles north of Dan
and we have to put up with flakey elections
and that Paradise Tax thing.

I live close to you, a few miles from Dizzyland, where trains come
loose and crush people to death.

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Watson A.Name - "Watt Sun · Sep 29, 2004

In article <fsg9b.103230$bo1.74282@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
andtfoot@hotpop.com mentioned...

=rant alert=

You're right about electronics in Australia. I live just north of Sydney,
NSW and there are still a huge number of parts that are not available
locally. Most ICs that aren't anything basic (eg. NE555, or LM741) have to
be ordered from America. Being a student without a credit card, or parent's
permission to use theirs, it is hard to make anything reasonably uncommon.

Try this: http://www.futurlec.com/Components.html

[snip]

--
@@F@r@o@m@@O@r@a@n@g@e@@C@o@u@n@t@y@,@@C@a@l@,@@w@h@e@r@e@@
###Got a Question about ELECTRONICS? Check HERE First:###
http://users.pandora.be/educypedia/electronics/databank.htm
My email address is whitelisted. *All* email sent to it
goes directly to the trash unless you add NOSPAM in the
Subject: line with other stuff. alondra101 <at> hotmail.com
Don't be ripped off by the big book dealers. Go to the URL
that will give you a choice and save you money(up to half).
http://www.everybookstore.com You'll be glad you did!
Just when you thought you had all this figured out, the gov't
changed it: http://physics.nist.gov/cuu/Units/binary.html
@@t@h@e@@a@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@m@e@e@t@@t@h@e@@E@f@f@l@u@e@n@t@@

Dan Fraser · Sep 29, 2004

Really, its not that hard to order from Digi-Key or Mouser in the USA.

In the 70s I bought kits from Hong Kong by mail. I was living in
western Canada and ordered lots of stuff from the USA.

There was mail order electronics before the Internet and the same
companies will still be glad to take your money if you mail it to them.

You download the order form from the suppliers web site, print it out,
fill it in and mail it off to the supplier along with a postal money
order in US dollars.

Your post office will be happy to sell you US dollar money orders. No
parental permission or credit card needed.

These kids, just because they don't have a credit card they don't seem
to remember that we did this sort of thing long before credit cards.
That we ordered parts long before the Internet. The mail service has not
yet been discontinued.

--
Dan Fraser

From Costa Mesa in sunny California
949-631-7535 Cell 714-420-7535

Check out my electronic schematics site at: http://www.schematicsforfree.com
If you are into cars check out www.roadsters.com

N. Thornton · Sep 29, 2004

Someone wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:

The repairability of things is such that, again,
it's the rare item which you can get repaired cheaper than you can replace.
---------------
Also nonsense, most failures are still trivial, usually cheap
components, or resoldering. Repair people just overcharge because
people don't have things repaired much anymore, so they need the
income.

Spoiled and techno-illiterate young and oldsters are under the
delusion that once something fails that it is "no good" and they
buy a new one. This comes from nothing more than a poor science and
technical education.

Yup, I think it comes primarily from advertising tho, and an education
system that fails to address the real issues in peple's lives - such
as advertising bull.

Here in England the throwaway culture is mind boggling. People
literally buy items, throw them away for no reason, go buy another,
another... its remarkable. They've bought into the advertising
nonsense in a huge way, basic common sense has gone right out the
window.

We're way worse than America like that.

When I say no reason I mean ask them for reasons and they can come out
with nothing valid, in most cases.

The knowledge needed to use junked parts is so
trivial as to be unbelievable that anyone would avoid learning it,
once you know it.

Its odd that no-one teaches this stuff. Why would a hobbyist order
stuff, and have to pay and wait days for it, when they have what they
need already? Bonkers. IMHO One of the basics of electronics is how to
identify and use what you've already got.

Daft notions of fashion are being put ahead of medical care,
retirement income, house ownership, vets bills, decent food... the
list goes on. This society is losing the plot methinks.

</rant>

Regards, NT

R. Steve Walz · Sep 29, 2004

N. Thornton wrote:

Someone wrote:
"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote:

The repairability of things is such that, again,
it's the rare item which you can get repaired cheaper than you can replace.
---------------
Also nonsense, most failures are still trivial, usually cheap
components, or resoldering. Repair people just overcharge because
people don't have things repaired much anymore, so they need the
income.

Spoiled and techno-illiterate young and oldsters are under the
delusion that once something fails that it is "no good" and they
buy a new one. This comes from nothing more than a poor science and
technical education.

Yup, I think it comes primarily from advertising tho, and an education
system that fails to address the real issues in peple's lives - such
as advertising bull.

Here in England the throwaway culture is mind boggling. People
literally buy items, throw them away for no reason, go buy another,
another... its remarkable. They've bought into the advertising
nonsense in a huge way, basic common sense has gone right out the
window.

We're way worse than America like that.

When I say no reason I mean ask them for reasons and they can come out
with nothing valid, in most cases.

The knowledge needed to use junked parts is so
trivial as to be unbelievable that anyone would avoid learning it,
once you know it.

Its odd that no-one teaches this stuff. Why would a hobbyist order
stuff, and have to pay and wait days for it, when they have what they
need already? Bonkers. IMHO One of the basics of electronics is how to
identify and use what you've already got.

Daft notions of fashion are being put ahead of medical care,
retirement income, house ownership, vets bills, decent food... the
list goes on. This society is losing the plot methinks.

/rant
Regards, NT
---------------

The advantage that the repair/home-build hobbyist has is that he will
preserve his savings, and wind up with lots of great stuff that he can
fix or reproduce at will. That is bound to be a survival advantage.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

N. Thornton · Sep 29, 2004

"R. Steve Walz" <rstevew@armory.com> wrote in message news:<3F6F978A.3E07@armory.com>...

The advantage that the repair/home-build hobbyist has is that he will
preserve his savings, and wind up with lots of great stuff that he can
fix or reproduce at will. That is bound to be a survival advantage.

-Steve

Hi. That's truer than you probably realised. I'm about to make a piece
of medical tronics for my own use. Direct affect on survival rate.

Regards, NT

N. Thornton · Sep 29, 2004

JeffM wrote:

The repairability of things is such that, again,
it's the rare item which you can get repaired cheaper than you can
replace.

This is another myth. When my own items go wrong they are in most
cases worth replacing. What happened is businesses got inefficient and
greedy. Repair shops have been charging 50 to 100 per hour for a long
time here. Paying that kind of rate isn't often worthwhile, but paying
a sensible price is. They've simply priced theselves out of the
market.

Some items aren't worth repairing, but most still are.

Regards, NT

JeffM · Sep 29, 2004

Yes, they've made complex circuits integrated and cheap to build
with.

Repair people just overcharge because people don't have things
repaired much anymore

Where do I start?

OK. These days it's not uncommon to open a case
and find that item is build around 1 or 2 chips (_LARGE_ scale
integration).
Often this is a proprietary IC and has a single source;
often it is programmable logic,
so--even if you can identify the general-purpose IC--
you have to get the microcode that goes into it. Again,
single-source.

Sure it's cheaper and easier to build stuff en mass with chips.
Repairing that stuff on a one-off basis is another thing;
even if you have access to the documents and parts,
there is often specific knowledge necessary.
(Sometimes repair is as much an art as it is about technology
--believe me, I've worked in factories.)

Back in the days when I worked in a TV shop
(and TVs were still relatively expensive--and cheaper to fix than
replace)
we were made aware that the bill which we prepared paid for:
1) the time spent by counter personnel doing the initial paperwork;
2) the tech's time getting that paperwork, verifying the problem on
the set,
removing the case (some were nightmares), analyzing the failure,
getting/ordering parts,
___installing the replacement parts___, doing a quick check of the
fix,
identifying any other problems we might be accused of causing,
reinstalling the back,
burning in the set to verifying that the repair would hold,
putting the set back on the outtake shelf,
and filling out the paperwork to calculate the cost
(at one shop--military PX concession-- we worked out of a flat-rate
manual
and every motion we did was specified for cost); and
3) the time spent by counter personnel processing-out the set. *

Minimum charge was 1 hour.

What a tech is paid is not the final (or "weighted") cost of the
service.

* This doesn't count rent, electricity, cleaning crew, insurance,
equipment costs, YYY.

Michael A. Terrell · Sep 29, 2004

"N. Thornton" wrote:

This is another myth. When my own items go wrong they are in most
cases worth replacing. What happened is businesses got inefficient and
greedy. Repair shops have been charging 50 to 100 per hour for a long
time here. Paying that kind of rate isn't often worthwhile, but paying
a sensible price is. They've simply priced theselves out of the
market.

Some items aren't worth repairing, but most still are.

Regards, NT

If that is too high, why not open your own repair shop. Then you can
charge a couple dollars an hour, then work 24/7 while paying all the
bills out of your savings. Do this till you can't afford to eat, and
show them how to do it right.

You have absolutely no idea what the overhead is for a small repair
business. Rent, insurance, utilities, payroll, parts, excessive costs
for service data, (if it is available) Shoddy construction, (Cheap
parts, bad solder quality, poor design). You also need an exterminator
to spray for roaches and other bugs that come in with the equipment.

Then add the cost of the factory training, special interfaces and
software to adjust what used to be done with a couple pots. Spend half
your time tracking down repair parts. First you find someone who carries
the part. Then you find that it is backordered for six months. repeat,
till you find the part, or the customer wants their equipment back, and
then tells everyone what a crook or idiot you are. After all, how hard
is it to find parts? They can run to town and buy repair parts for
their car, lawn mower, washer, or dryer, so you must be a liar, a moron,
or both.

Don't forget the bonus! Your "CUSTOMER" opens it up, does more
damage, then expects a discount, because they helped you by taking it
apart for you.
--

Michael A. Terrell
Central Florida

JeffM · Sep 29, 2004

Batch-processed manufacturing makes things much easier to produce than to fix.
Even in the factory, where you have the _best_ information on a product,
it can be a bitch to repair the stuff.

In the 21st Century, electronics repair is only practical for _LARGE_ systems
or specialty items.

See also my response (rant?) to Steve Walz.

Chip with simple program for Toy

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