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Just answer the question: huge with respect to what?HUGE.
There's that word again.
---
Something you obviously can't deal with...
How big is "huge?"
Way big?
Really big?
Super duper big?
---
Let's put it this way:
Totally huge.When looking at battery tech for (PH)EVs, I came across an
interesting experiment converting a school bus into an electric
vehicle.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/icat/projects/smud.pdf
The battery used here is a ZEBRA (NiNaCl liquid salt) battery pack.
These guys paid $53,500 for their 107 kWh ZEBRA battery (in 2003).
In volume production, the manufacturer price sheet goes to about
$20,000 for the same battery pack.
Lots of benefits here over other battery technologies, most notably
its cost, it's robustness, safety and its absense of 'rare' metals.
Nickel and table salt (NaCl) are the main ingredients.
Technically, school busses (and city busses and most delivery vans)
seem to be a great early adopter to become "electrified", not just
because of their frequent stops (regenerative braking advantages),
and air pollution (noone likes stinking diesels in urban areas),
but also because they run short trips (no more than one day at a
time).
Yes, vehicles that do not require long ranges and have defined
periods of use that allow regular recharging would be a good bet for
this kind of thing.
Like electric farm tractors?
Nope, the cost of the batterys is much too high.
Nope.It makes a hell of a lot more sense to use biodiesel in those.
Nope.They can even grow that themselves.
You mean,When looking at battery tech for (PH)EVs, I came across an
interesting experiment converting a school bus into an electric
vehicle.
http://www.arb.ca.gov/research/icat/projects/smud.pdf
The battery used here is a ZEBRA (NiNaCl liquid salt) battery pack.
These guys paid $53,500 for their 107 kWh ZEBRA battery (in 2003).
In volume production, the manufacturer price sheet goes to about
$20,000 for the same battery pack.
Lots of benefits here over other battery technologies, most notably
its cost, it's robustness, safety and its absense of 'rare' metals.
Nickel and table salt (NaCl) are the main ingredients.
Technically, school busses (and city busses and most delivery vans)
seem to be a great early adopter to become "electrified", not just
because of their frequent stops (regenerative braking advantages),
and air pollution (noone likes stinking diesels in urban areas), but
also because they run short trips (no more than one day at a time).
ZEBRAs seem to have a very bright future in PHEV tech.
Nope, a rather dim one actually, because of the price.
Just a few cents/kW-hr if it cycles 5K times, a little more
than a dime including the electricity in many places.
Thats not the price that matters, its the cost of the batterys that matters.
Totally huge.In 2 years a perfectly tuned diesel running at optimum speed will be 17 cents/kW- hr.
But the price of diesel will be totally huge.And doesnt need those batterys.
Nope.In 6 years the diesel will be 50 cents/kW-hr.
Just another number plucked out of your arse. We can tell that from the smell.
Totally huge.Please elaborate on that quantitatively and show your work.
Some of the posters here are not even functional.So you are not only a dick-head, you are also a retard.
Just go back through the tread about who said what.
---What about "totally big?"
HUGE.
There's that word again.
---
Something you obviously can't deal with...
How big is "huge?"
Way big?
Really big?
Super duper big?
---
Let's put it this way:
Just answer the question: huge with respect to what?
---Most valley girls speak with better reasoning and greater precision
than you.
---So you are not only a dick-head, you are also a retard.
Just go back through the tread about who said what.
Some of the posters here are not even functional.
In Tucson they tried to integrate these SSI mental disability cases
into society by locating them in apt. buildings, etc. At first I
thought it was a good idea but later discovered merely having them
physically around normal people isn't much different that putting them
all together on the funny farm. One glance and every normal avoids
them w/o even thinking about it.
Now apparently they are trying this which is a good idea.
After all, what damage can they do here?
---BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:
That could drop with cheap PV.
So such thing yet exists.
One plant in San Jose puts out a GW a year.
And it's area is ?
I'ld assume it is the 15% rating applied to the 1kW/m^2 figure, 6.7
m^2/kW X 1 GW X 1,000,000 kW/GW = 6.7 million m^2.
Have you EVER heard of something called INSOLATION ?
How else are they going to rate their plant's capacity?
Whoooooosssshhhhhhh !
WOW you really are dumb.I'm not quite sure I've ever seen anyone miss the
point quite as effectively as you just did.
Sadly this is true of some technologies. Their good sides are outweighedPathetic.
Nope.
Nuke.
No way.
Ain't gonna happen.
The value being highly critical. Lower value stuff goes that way too don't forget.Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
Did you know that something like 30% of all fuel oil is used
in SHIPPING. No more trade with Asia (fuel costs too high
Thats not true. The sea freight is a small part of the retail price.
That's not what I said.
Yes it is.
I said % of usage.
That was a comment on your second sentance. Thats why I broke your para there.
In comparison aviation is 'only' 8% or so. Therefore
SHIPPING usage has a MAJOR effect on fuel oil price.
Nope, because it isnt where the increased demand is.
- already sea transport can account for 10% of the FOB - destination cost),
Not with the sort of stuff we buy from asia it doesnt.
You must be getting some damn good deals then !
Nope, just high value containerised 'stuff'
Well no, ultimately 'the market' and speculators do that so we could say Wall Stno more cruise lines,
The cost of the fuel is a small part of their costs.
Maybe in their case.
No maybe about it. Their costs are completely dominated by wages and food etc.
you name it.
The Arabs aren't stupid, they know who pays for the modernisation
(and bombing) of their countries. It won't go that high.
It aint set by the arabs, and yes, it wont get that high.
Ever heard of OPEC ?
OPEC doesnt determine the price of oil.
Have you ever had British 'fish and chips' ? It's a fine meal. Admittedlyt I prefer poached salmon.Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
Rod Speed wrote:
Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
Did you know that something like 30% of all fuel oil is used
in SHIPPING. No more trade with Asia (fuel costs too high
Thats not true. The sea freight is a small part of the retail price.
That's not what I said.
Yes it is.
I said % of usage.
That was a comment on your second sentance. Thats why I broke your para there.
In comparison aviation is 'only' 8% or so. Therefore
SHIPPING usage has a MAJOR effect on fuel oil price.
Nope, because it isnt where the increased demand is.
- already sea transport can account for 10% of the FOB - destination cost),
Not with the sort of stuff we buy from asia it doesnt.
You must be getting some damn good deals then !
Nope, just high value containerised 'stuff'
The value being highly critical. Lower value stuff goes that way too don't forget.
Not what we buy from ASIA it doesnt.
We used to get containerised deliveries for example of mid-value
electronics and shipping costs weren't negligible by any means.
I didnt say anything about negligible. Nothing like 10% tho.
no more cruise lines,
The cost of the fuel is a small part of their costs.
Maybe in their case.
No maybe about it. Their costs are completely dominated by wages and food etc.
you name it.
The Arabs aren't stupid, they know who pays for the modernisation
(and bombing) of their countries. It won't go that high.
It aint set by the arabs, and yes, it wont get that high.
Ever heard of OPEC ?
OPEC doesnt determine the price of oil.
Well no, ultimately 'the market' and speculators do that so we could say Wall St etc is to blame.
Yep, hence my original comment.
I dare say we could debate factors of this at length and it would be
quite interesting but I think there are other more important fish to fry.
Fried fish is bad for you.
I don't know the exact details for sure but very large marine diesels are now hitting 50%. That's"Eeyore" wrote
BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:
Diesel will go _up_ 20 cents/kW-hr over the next year or so.
It might also go down. Suggest you inspect history.
Also, newer tech diesel engines are getting ever more efficicent. Check out
Detroit Diesel's site IIRC for example. They're not letting the grass grow under
their feet.
Thanks Graham,
I know that diesels (especially lately) are probably the most efficient ICEs around.
But do you see any efficiency numbers for the new diesels ? Can't find much on detroitdiesel.com.
LMAO !"John Fields" <jfields@austininstruments.com> wrot
Eeyore wrote:
BretCahill@peoplepc.com wrote:
That could drop with cheap PV.
So such thing yet exists.
One plant in San Jose puts out a GW a year.
And it's area is ?
I'ld assume it is the 15% rating applied to the 1kW/m^2 figure, 6.7
m^2/kW X 1 GW X 1,000,000 kW/GW = 6.7 million m^2.
Have you EVER heard of something called INSOLATION ?
How else are they going to rate their plant's capacity?
Whoooooosssshhhhhhh !
WOW you really are dumb.I'm not quite sure I've ever seen anyone miss the
point quite as effectively as you just did.
---
He probably thinks insolation is something you put in your attic and
walls to keep the sun's heat out in summer.
JF
You guys having fun beating around the bush ?
LMFAO !Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bret Cahill wrote:
When looking at battery tech for (PH)EVs, I came across an
interesting experiment converting a school bus into an electric vehicle.
And if it was so great whey aren't they in volume manufacture right now ?
Coz the oil companys use terrorists to blow up the factorys, silly.
That is a truly SILLY answer."Eeyore" wrote
Bret Cahill wrote:
When looking at battery tech for (PH)EVs, I came across an
interesting experiment converting a school bus into an electric
vehicle.
And if it was so great whey aren't they in volume manufacture right now ?
They are manufactured, but not in large volume yet.
Many reasons for that. One important one because the cost of diesel only recently became more expensive than grid+battery.
Remember oil was HALF the cost last year around this time (remember $70/barrel?).
It has been only been a few years that even diesel-hybrids became competitive with standard diesels.
Diesel-hybrids (especially series hybrids) already have full electric drive, so now that battery+grid became cheaper than diesel, I
expect a lot plug-in hybrid diesels to emerge (retrofit bigger batteries on existing hybrids, and on new vehicles), and electric and
plug-in hybrid busses/delivery vans will almost certainly take off too.
All this is assuming that price of oil is not gotta go down below $100 any more. If that happens, many applications will drop back
to simpler ICE technology.
Couple of big problems remains : how fast can the world increase battery production ? And which battery technology can expand
fastest...
The free market should be able to determine that though.
Since ZEBRAs use cheap production materials, and fairly simple production process, I give them a very good chance of becoming a
dominant battery technology for PHEVs and EVs.
Pitty that only one manufacterer in the world makes them (MES-DEA in Switzerland).
I wonder how many patents are still open on ZEBRA technology. Patent litigation and negotiation could slow down investment and
production of battery-tech.
---Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote:
Bret Cahill wrote:
When looking at battery tech for (PH)EVs, I came across an
interesting experiment converting a school bus into an electric vehicle.
And if it was so great whey aren't they in volume manufacture right now ?
Coz the oil companys use terrorists to blow up the factorys, silly.
---Eeyore <rabbitsfriendsandrelations@hotmail.com> wrote
I dare say we could debate factors of this at length and it would be
quite interesting but I think there are other more important fish to fry.
Fried fish is bad for you.