Chip with simple program for Toy

On Nov 17, 9:39 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com>
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Magnetic 'lines of force' are notional and are most certainly NOT energy.

Why are the lines always depicted as pointing from north to south?
Click to expand...
Because we say so! Next question?

Hey Radium, great to have your inane posts back in the group! Man,
it's been SO dull around here without you stirring the pot!
 
On Nov 17, 10:35 pm, "Autymn D. C." <lysde...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On Nov 17, 6:41 pm, Dan Bloomquist <publi...@lakeweb.com> wrote:

*There is still the Aharonov-Bohm effect, which I have yet to understand
properly. But the 'B' field does not necessarily come into play other
than mathematically, FWIU.
Click to expand...
"However, the AB effect is proof for my theorem that motes/whits are
almost infinitely-big: "
I'm sure surprised to hear that motes/whits are almost infinitely-big,
but then what to I know?
 
On Nov 17, 11:46 pm, RP <no_mail_no_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The Aharonov-Bohm effect is easily explained in the context of
Weberian electrodynamics. The field outside of an ideal solenoid is
not nulled by superpostion of the fields of the current elements ds
around the loop. The law of Biot-Savart is simply incorrect.
Click to expand...
So the Biot-Savart law is "simply incorrect", huh?
But what does that say about whits/motes?

By placing a solenoid between the two slits of a diffraction grating
the phase of the passing electron is shifted simply because the
rotational sense of the drifting electrons within the coil are not
symetric wrt the slits. The force will be greater on the electron as
it passes through the slit in which the drifting electrons closer to
it are moving counter to the motion of the electron passing through
the slit. The force on the passing electron will be less through the
other slit. The interference pattern is thus shifted to the right or
left depending upon orientation of the solenoid.
Click to expand...

Great theory! Too bad the actual experiment isn't done with
solenoids.
 
"Green Xenon [Radium]" <glucegen1@excite.com> writes:

Eeyore wrote:
Click to expand...

Magnetic 'lines of force' are notional and are most certainly NOT energy.
Click to expand...

Why are the lines always depicted as pointing from north to south?
Click to expand...
Convention.

Why is current represented as flowing from positive to negative, even
though we all know electrons flow from negative to positive?

Convention.
 
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:08:16 -0600, Gene wrote:

Good day, all.

Problem: Cause a sphere that is 6 feet in diameter and made of
0.05 inch thick plate steel (or other metal?) to reach a uniform skin
temperature
of 300F degrees by using 220 or 440VAC as a source?

First, is it possible?
(I'm sure there are better ways of doing this than making the entire
sphere a shorted heating element - but this question relates only to whether
it's POSSIBLE, not practical.)

"IF" it's possible, what type of transformer would you use?
That is, what would the OUTPUT in volts, amps, watts, etc be -
assuming that you wanted the sphere to reach a uniform skin
temperature of 300F? Basically, we just want to "short-out" the
sphere & cause it to heat to 300F with AC or DC current - so
what's the transformer design :)

THANKS,
Gene
Click to expand...
Your question lacks detail. With your wording, one answer is "Sure! Just
build an oven that runs on 220, takes a 6' diameter sphere, and will heat
to 300F in a few days with the door closed!"

So:

Direct heating (and the inevitable contact grunge on your sphere)?

Indirect (i.e. can we specify an oven)?

Inductive (this would be a candidate)?

How even do you need the temperature?

How fast to get up to temperature?

Any current/power limitations?

Can we specify that the sphere has to move?

--
Tim Wescott
Control systems and communications consulting
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Need to learn how to apply control theory in your embedded system?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" by Tim Wescott
Elsevier/Newnes, http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
On Nov 17, 7:12 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com>
wrote:
Bill Hobba wrote:
There is zero evidence for silly semantics like 'Southern magnetic energy is
emitted from the side of a magnet taking in the lines of force'.

Look at the visualizations in the following links [look at the arrows on
the magnetic field lines] :

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node92.html

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter1/1i.htm

As you can see the magnetic lines depict the magnetic force being
carried from north to south.

The Earth's "South" pole is really the North, while the "North" pole is
actually the South because of this reason.

Quotes fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_South_Pole:

"The Earth's South Magnetic Pole is physically actually a magnetic north
pole"

Quotes fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_North_Pole:

"Conversely, the Earth's South Magnetic Pole is physically a magnetic
north pole"

Quotes fromhttp://van.physics.uiuc.edu/qa/listing.php?id=404:

"the magnetic field lines go out of the magnetic North pole and head
towards the South pole"

See what I mean?

Relating
it self evident trivial statements like 'that negative electrodes give out
electrons', as if it was some great insight, simply compounds the
irrelevancy.

How so? Electrons are negatively charged so they move away from negative
electrodes to positive electrodes. Similarly, "magnetons" [the particles
carrying magnetic energy] are "northly-charged", hence they move away
from north-side of the magnet towards to south-side.

So,

Positive charge in electricity = Southern "charge" in magnetism

Negative charge in electricity = Northern "charge" in magnetism

It's an analogy.
Click to expand...
The point that you evidently miss is that there are no charges in
magnetism.

I'd suggest that you read a quality textbook on the subject, since you
appear to be laboring under vast misconceptions.

A magnetic field is something that simply exists, often between the
poles of a magnet, and sometimes without a magnet even being present.
It's in no way suggests a flow of enegy from one pole of the magnet to
another, and the concept of lines of force are simply a theoretical
abstation that mostly demonstrates magnetic field intensity existing,
not energy.

Magnetic fields are present in all electromagnetic waves. James Clerk
Maxwell precisely expained this in his theory, Cutting to the chase
without the use of Calculus, this simply means that a time varying
electric field produces a corresponding time varying magnetic field,
and electromagnetic waves in free space are the result. It's not
exactly rocket science (well, maybe it is), but this knowledge has
been available for over 100 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell

It may be well for you to familiarize yourself with what knowledge is
already known, before speculating on silly ideas.

Harry C.
 
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:40:11 -0600, Gene wrote:

Direct heating (and the inevitable contact grunge on your sphere)?

Yes, the entire sphere will simply be the heating element. That is,
you connect one wire to one side of the sphere and the other wire
to the opposite side of the sphere & turn on the juice.

How even do you need the temperature?

We want the entire sphere to have a skin temperature of 300F.
That is, we want VERY even heat.
Click to expand...
You aren't going to get that using a uniform sphere as a resistive heating
element. The contact points will get hotter than the rest of it. If you
want even heat, you would need to make the metal thinner as you get
further from the contacts.
 
"Gene" <genes@wildblue.net> wrote in message
news:J400j.11$dG4.116851@news.sisna.com...
Good day, all.

Problem: Cause a sphere that is 6 feet in diameter and made of
0.05 inch thick plate steel (or other metal?) to reach a uniform skin
temperature
of 300F degrees by using 220 or 440VAC as a source?

First, is it possible?
(I'm sure there are better ways of doing this than making the entire
sphere a shorted heating element - but this question relates only to
whether
it's POSSIBLE, not practical.)

"IF" it's possible, what type of transformer would you use?
That is, what would the OUTPUT in volts, amps, watts, etc be -
assuming that you wanted the sphere to reach a uniform skin
temperature of 300F? Basically, we just want to "short-out" the
sphere & cause it to heat to 300F with AC or DC current - so
what's the transformer design :)

THANKS,
Gene
Click to expand...
Place a heating element inside the sphere? The heat will move to the
outside of the sphere. It is not possible to use the sphere itself as a
heating element because there is very little resistance so you would need
extremely large currents which means your power source must be very large.

The main issue seems to the uniformity as any air convection out side would
result in local cool spots(not sure how much though and I imagine it depends
on the ability of steel to hold its heat). Air convection inside the sphere
is a good thing though as it will help keep it uniform... although I'm not
sure if it would be needed.

Maybe you can pump gas into the sphere and ignite it/burn it and have some
method to circulate the air. Or better yet, use some liquid with a high
boiling point(to reduce pressure)?

I'm sure there are many ways to do it. Maybe using a liquid would help in
the uniformity(specially if it too is circulated). Not sure if this is
practical for your situation though as you haven't given many details.
 
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:40:11 -0600, "Gene" <genes@wildblue.net>
wrote:

Thanks, Tim.


Direct heating (and the inevitable contact grunge on your sphere)?
Yes, the entire sphere will simply be the heating element. That is,
you connect one wire to one side of the sphere and the other wire
to the opposite side of the sphere & turn on the juice.


Indirect (i.e. can we specify an oven)?

Inductive (this would be a candidate)?

How even do you need the temperature?
We want the entire sphere to have a skin temperature of 300F.
That is, we want VERY even heat.
Click to expand...
---
_How_ even?

What's your spec of delta t over the surface?
---

How fast to get up to temperature?
Five minutes would be ideal - just not in hours.

Any current/power limitations?
Yes, we want to use the normally available 220 or 440VAC as
a source to the transformer(s) or whatever.

Can we specify that the sphere has to move?
The sphere will be suspended and insulated.
Think of the sphere as you would the heating element in
a common home electric stove.

We simply want to heat the sphere without having to construct an
oven or other device to supply the heat.
Click to expand...
---
OK, but since you say it's insulated, How good is the insulation?


--
JF
 
hhc314@yahoo.com wrote:
" <gluceg...@excite.com
wrote:

Bill Hobba wrote:

There is zero evidence for silly semantics like 'Southern magnetic energy is
emitted from the side of a magnet taking in the lines of force'.

Look at the visualizations in the following links [look at the arrows on
the magnetic field lines] :

http://theory.uwinnipeg.ca/mod_tech/node92.html

http://www.tpub.com/neets/book1/chapter1/1i.htm

As you can see the magnetic lines depict the magnetic force being
carried from north to south.

The Earth's "South" pole is really the North, while the "North" pole is
actually the South because of this reason.

Quotes fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_South_Pole:

"The Earth's South Magnetic Pole is physically actually a magnetic north
pole"

Quotes fromhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_North_Pole:

"Conversely, the Earth's South Magnetic Pole is physically a magnetic
north pole"

Quotes fromhttp://van.physics.uiuc.edu/qa/listing.php?id=404:

"the magnetic field lines go out of the magnetic North pole and head
towards the South pole"

See what I mean?


Relating
it self evident trivial statements like 'that negative electrodes give out
electrons', as if it was some great insight, simply compounds the
irrelevancy.

How so? Electrons are negatively charged so they move away from negative
electrodes to positive electrodes. Similarly, "magnetons" [the particles
carrying magnetic energy] are "northly-charged", hence they move away
from north-side of the magnet towards to south-side.

So,

Positive charge in electricity = Southern "charge" in magnetism

Negative charge in electricity = Northern "charge" in magnetism

It's an analogy.


The point that you evidently miss is that there are no charges in
magnetism.

I'd suggest that you read a quality textbook on the subject, since you
appear to be laboring under vast misconceptions.

A magnetic field is something that simply exists, often between the
poles of a magnet, and sometimes without a magnet even being present.
It's in no way suggests a flow of enegy from one pole of the magnet to
another, and the concept of lines of force are simply a theoretical
abstation that mostly demonstrates magnetic field intensity existing,
not energy.

Magnetic fields are present in all electromagnetic waves. James Clerk
Maxwell precisely expained this in his theory, Cutting to the chase
without the use of Calculus, this simply means that a time varying
electric field produces a corresponding time varying magnetic field,
and electromagnetic waves in free space are the result. It's not
exactly rocket science (well, maybe it is), but this knowledge has
been available for over 100 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Clerk_Maxwell

It may be well for you to familiarize yourself with what knowledge is
already known, before speculating on silly ideas.

Harry C.
Click to expand...
I was already aware that magnetic monopoles don't exist and that if you
chop a big magnet into smaller magnet pieces, you will still get only
dipoles -- no monopoles at all.

I was just wondering why magnets were depicted with arrows pointing from
the north to the south. To me it looked similar to an electric path
consisting of electrons flowing from the negative to positive.
 
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 14:38:22 -0800, "Green Xenon [Radium]"
<glucegen1@excite.com> wrote:


I was just wondering why magnets were depicted with arrows pointing from
the north to the south. To me it looked similar to an electric path
consisting of electrons flowing from the negative to positive.
Click to expand...
---
Hmmm...

This may be where you belong:

http://www.josephnewman.com/


--
JF
 
On Nov 18, 12:35 am, Benj <bjac...@iwaynet.net> wrote:
On Nov 17, 11:46 pm, RP <no_mail_no_s...@yahoo.com> wrote:

The Aharonov-Bohm effect is easily explained in the context of
Weberian electrodynamics. The field outside of an ideal solenoid is
not nulled by superpostion of the fields of the current elements ds
around the loop. The law of Biot-Savart is simply incorrect.

So the Biot-Savart law is "simply incorrect", huh?
But what does that say about whits/motes?

By placing a solenoid between the two slits of a diffraction grating
the phase of the passing electron is shifted simply because the
rotational sense of the drifting electrons within the coil are not
symetric wrt the slits. The force will be greater on the electron as
it passes through the slit in which the drifting electrons closer to
it are moving counter to the motion of the electron passing through
the slit. The force on the passing electron will be less through the
other slit. The interference pattern is thus shifted to the right or
left depending upon orientation of the solenoid.

Great theory! Too bad the actual experiment isn't done with
solenoids.
Click to expand...
You must be referring to a different experiment. If you don't mind
provide some references, because everything I've read on the subject
says that the decisive experiment that proved the effect involves a
solenoid situated bewteen two slits through with electrons are
accelerated.
 
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 17:35:46 -0600, Gene wrote:

We want the entire sphere to have a skin temperature of 300F.
That is, we want VERY even heat.

You aren't going to get that using a uniform sphere as a resistive heating
element. The contact points will get hotter than the rest of it. If you
want even heat, you would need to make the metal thinner as you get
further from the contacts.

Thanks.

That was my gut feeling.
However, is it possible to "bring it up slowly"?
That is, use a microprocessor or a timer to apply the
current VERY slowly?
Click to expand...
Sure, but it won't help.

The stable state will have the regions near the connections at a higher
temperature than the regions further away.

The heating will be proportional to the square of the current density,
while the cooling will be proportional to temperature. The stable state
occurs when heating is equal to cooling, so regions with a higher current
density will have a higher stable temperature than regions with a lower
current density.
 
In sci.physics, Green Xenon [Radium]
<glucegen1@excite.com>
wrote
on Sat, 17 Nov 2007 18:39:25 -0800
<473fa494$0$24348$4c368faf@roadrunner.com>:
Eeyore wrote:


Magnetic 'lines of force' are notional and are most certainly NOT energy.


Why are the lines always depicted as pointing from north to south?
Click to expand...
In a more rational world one might discuss the notion of
"isomags" or some such -- where the force on a hypothetical
tiny magnet [*] is equal. These lines would surround the
poles in circles.

As it is, anyone who's played with iron filings will
note that they tend to produce lines from pole to pole;
the ancients probably noticed this and drew diagrams
accordingly.

[*] this actually gets a bit complicated as there are two
forces involved: one towards the north and one towards
the south pole of the magnet. The difference in
numerical magnitude of these two forces is what's
constant in this particular proposal.

--
#191, ewill3@earthlink.net
Useless C/C++ Programming Idea #2239120:
void f(char *p) {char *q = p; strcpy(p,q); }

--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
 
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On Nov 17, 9:39 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com>
wrote:
Eeyore wrote:
Magnetic 'lines of force' are notional and are most certainly NOT energy.

Why are the lines always depicted as pointing from north to south?
Click to expand...
Even that's not true. Magnetic field lines form closed loops. They
don't end at the poles of the magnet, but continue through the
interior of the magnet.
 
Gene wrote:
(top posting fixed)
"Nobody" <nobody@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2007.11.18.21.22.52.931625@nowhere.com...
On Sun, 18 Nov 2007 13:40:11 -0600, Gene wrote:

Direct heating (and the inevitable contact grunge on your sphere)?

Yes, the entire sphere will simply be the heating element. That is,
you connect one wire to one side of the sphere and the other wire
to the opposite side of the sphere & turn on the juice.

How even do you need the temperature?

We want the entire sphere to have a skin temperature of 300F.
That is, we want VERY even heat.

You aren't going to get that using a uniform sphere as a resistive
heating
element. The contact points will get hotter than the rest of it. If you
want even heat, you would need to make the metal thinner as you get
further from the contacts.


Thanks.

That was my gut feeling.
However, is it possible to "bring it up slowly"?
That is, use a microprocessor or a timer to apply the
current VERY slowly?
Click to expand...
As "nobody" pointed out, you can't bring it up slowly because no matter
how slow you go your source will still be uneven.

You may be able to heat it evenly by spinning it while using an
inductive heater, but you'd either have to use a heater that'll heat up
one patch and spin the sphere while precessing it (and suffer heat
irregularities), or use a bunch of heaters strung along a 180 degree arc
that are sized to make the latitudinal bars receive even heating.

Ultimately if you want even heat I think you need to think about using
an oven and stirring the air.

--

Tim Wescott
Wescott Design Services
http://www.wescottdesign.com

Do you need to implement control loops in software?
"Applied Control Theory for Embedded Systems" gives you just what it says.
See details at http://www.wescottdesign.com/actfes/actfes.html
 
Have hexagonal or dodecahedral heating pads with heat sink thermal
compound pressed on the inside. IR pyrometers read the temp in ea
section and control the juice to ea heater.
 
On Nov 17, 5:55 pm, "Green Xenon [Radium]" <gluceg...@excite.com>
wrote:
Northern magnetic energy is emitted from the side of
the magnet giving out the lines of force. This is analogous to the fact
that negative electrodes give out electrons and positive electrodes take
in electrons in a circuit. The current flows from negative to positive
because electrons are negatively-charged. Similarly, the south side of a
magnet is positive while the north side is negative.
Click to expand...
No, this is wrong.
The magnetic field lines are not analogous to electric
current. Electric current constitutes a flow of electric charges, with
rest-mass. Often the electric charges are electrons as in metal wires,
or ions as in salt water. A magnetic current would be a flow of
monopoles, also with a rest mass. As far as has yet been determined,
monopoles do not exist. Even if they were discovered, the magnetic
field is not behaving like a flow of monopoles. The magnetic field is
a field, not a current. A magnetic field line is not a current any
more than a road is a bunch of moving cars.
The magnetic field is loosely analogous to an electric field.
The electric field is not an electric current. A kink in an electric
field lines moves much faster than a electric current. Electric field
line kinks move at the speed of light.
Yes, electric field lines do extend from the positive charge to
the negative charge. They do not move from positive to negative, they
extend from positive to negative. They are considered continuous
entities, not a path of motion. Two electric charges fixed a distance
apart, not moving, can have electric field lines extending between
them. If you let the two charges go, they will move toward each other
ALONG the electric field lines.
Just like magnetic field lines are not considered a path of moving
charges. A electric field is not an electric current any more than a
road is bunch of moving cars.
 
On Nov 18, 1:49 pm, "Jon Slaughter" <Jon_Slaugh...@Hotmail.com> wrote:
"Gene" <ge...@wildblue.net> wrote in message

news:J400j.11$dG4.116851@news.sisna.com...





Good day, all.

Problem: Cause a sphere that is 6 feet in diameter and made of
0.05 inch thick plate steel (or other metal?) to reach a uniform skin
temperature
of 300F degrees by using 220 or 440VAC as a source?

First, is it possible?
(I'm sure there are better ways of doing this than making the entire
sphere a shorted heating element - but this question relates only to
whether
it's POSSIBLE, not practical.)

"IF" it's possible, what type of transformer would you use?
That is, what would the OUTPUT in volts, amps, watts, etc be -
assuming that you wanted the sphere to reach a uniform skin
temperature of 300F? Basically, we just want to "short-out" the
sphere & cause it to heat to 300F with AC or DC current - so
what's the transformer design :)

THANKS,
Gene

Place a heating element inside the sphere?
Click to expand...
Jon makes the best suggestion so far.
Use a fan inside it as well. Otherwise your heat may float to the top
and settle.
Some quality cookware uses aluminum bonded to the underside of
stainless
steel to conduct heat faster, and thus more evenly. What kinda bucks
you
got? I'd like to see you pay to fab a six foot steel sphere with a
layer of aluminum
bonded to the inside. As long as yore blowin hot air here, anything's
possible!
I assume you will have gas fill, not liquid. A six foot sphere full
of
liquid would get mighty heavy.
So, is this for real, why on earth do you need a metallic six foot
sphere
to get so hot? Sounds almost like some doofy art project. I can't
imagine
a practical use.
 
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