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On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 20:52:58 -0600, Tony Hwang <dragon40@shaw.ca
wrote:
Most of bulbs in the house is now all LEDs. Could see
some difference in the power bill.
I didn't do so well. Through LED lighting transplants and juggling
some electronics, I managed to drop my monthly electric burn from an
average of 375 kw-hr in 2008 to about 315 kw-hr average in 2014. See
spreadsheet and graph at:
http://802.11junk.com/jeffl/crud/PG&E to Sept 2014-01.xls
Note the trend lines. While my electricity consumption was going
down, PG&E was busy raising their rates and juggling the tiers. The
result was despite the lower consumption, I am still paying roughly
the same per month. Grumble.
Some analysis with a clamp on ammeter and kill-a-watt meter showed
that the bulk of my electric usage is the electric water heater. They
don't make an LED water heater and solar is not an option in a forest.
I'm looking into flash water heaters, but it looks like it would take
years to recover the initial investment. A wood burning water heater
using a hot tub as a hot water tank is a possibility, but doesn't work
well with my convenience lifestyle.
Can an LED floodlight possibly be as bright as a real floodlight?
The fixture will be mounted about 24 feet above the ground so it has to
be bright.
The people who rate the one below say it's very bright, but have they
ever looked into a 100 watt incandescent floodlight? It's probably
blinding, so I'm not sure the raters' opinions are really comparisons.
The one below at Home Depot from Lithonia Lighting says it has "2
efficient 10-watt LEDs" where the two incandescent lights would
otherwise be. The picture shows two circular devices, each divided
into 3 120-degree parts, with what looks like a small concave reflector
with an LED in the middle of each part. I guess they are saying the 3
together use 10 watts. Are there really 3 1/3 watt LEDs, and is 10
watts from an LED as much light as 100 watts incandescent?? That's what
the floodlights use now, 200 watts total per fixture.
The maker's website
http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0
says "Each head contains (3) 4780K high performance LEDs. Lumen output
of 1,222 is maintained at 50,000 hour life. LED driver is 120V and
operates at 60Hz."
I like the idea of LED, because it's very difficult to change the bulb
on one of my two** double-flloodlights.***, but not if it's not going to
light up the area.
Mostly what I'm looking for is a light that won't go on because of the
wind, but will go on when a person walks by.
This one, despite the high price, $116, only has 6 LEDs (2 by HD's
counting method!).
http://www.homedepot.com/p/Lithonia-Lighting-Twin-Head-LED-Outdoor-Motion-Sensing-Bronze-Floodlight-OFLR-6LC-120-MO-BZ/202598344
The same thing with three sets of three LEDs is 150 dollars, implying
that one group of three and the holder is $34
The same thing with photocell but no motion sensor is 98 dollars,
impliying that they're only charging 18 dollars for the motion sensor
and most of the price is for the LEDs.
Thanks.
Details that the electronics guys may find boring. Hey, everyone may
find them boring!
**The other floodlight in the back of the house I put in right under my
bedroom window, so I can just lean out and change the bulb. I wired it
from the receptacle just below the window, so little effort to run the
wires, and it sure looks better than several of my neighbors' who let an
electrician or handyman run surface Romex or conduit from the back porch
light, most of whom no longer have a back porch light.
*** It's chest high when I'm in the attic, so that's about 24 feet (?,
two story house, plus attic. The first floor is about a foot above the
ground.) and I don't have a ladder that long. What I've done to adjust
the light sensor and change the bulb is to unscrew the winged folding
toggle nut inside the attic, remove the big washer, disconnect the Romex
and tie a string to the end of the wire, and lower the whole fixture to
the ground. Do my work there, and pull tthe fixture back up. The hard
parts are getting the romex through its hole, and gettting the long
screw to go though its assigned hole (which is a lot bigger than the
screw, but still not easy to find) so I can screw the toggle nut back
on. I've done this twice with no more than 10 minutes each time trying
to get the screw through, but I fear some time it will take me hours,
and it woudl be nice if it used LED's and never burned out. But at 23
feet high, the light has to be bright!!
Air source or ground source Heatpump might be the answer for your water
heating by electricity - worth a look? C+
Actyally you pay for energy, kWh ( kilowatthours) not for power ( asOn 10/13/2014 2:23 AM, Tony Hwang wrote:
Hi,
We consume around 1000KWh per month. Down from ~1300KWh.
I think our 4 person electric Sauna sucks lot of juice even running on
220V.
If the unit was 110 V, do you think the
cost would be different?
Hint: Watt is a unit of work. You pay for
watts.
.
Christopher A. Young
Learn about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
Still quite mediocre. I've been building my own LED retrofits forOn 13/10/2014 8:58 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt.
**Oops. Make that 15 ~ 20 Lumens/Watt.
**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).
I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:58:56 +1100, Trevor Wilson
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).
I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.
You're right should have compared lumens earlier on.
The maker's website
http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0
says about the one I was interested in "Each head contains (3) 4780K
high performance LEDs. Lumen output of 1,222 "
That's total for both heads. 1719 Lumens for a 3-head version.
Then I looked at 100 watt incandescent. Between 1000 and 1500 lumen
times 2 bulbs = 2000 to 3000 lumen.
So I don't know whether to buy 1222 LED lumens for $117 or 1719 lumens
for $150.
Or stay with incandescent for maybe $35 and hope they don't burn out so
fast if I get a good brand that doesn't turn on with the wind. I
almost never go there at night so if they don't turn on in the wind,
they'll burn less than 5 hours a year 2000 hour lifespan will be 400
years. Ugh.
On 10/13/2014, 2:31 PM, micky wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 08:58:56 +1100, Trevor Wilson
trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt. Good quality LEDs can manage between 100 ~ 120 Lumens/Watt.
I recently purchased a cheap, Chinese 100 Watt LED + power supply.
Without a reflector, it provides superior lighting to a standard 500
Watt halogen lamp (with reflector).
I took a couple of photos and found that the camera saw things
differently to the human eye. Although the halogen was distinctly yellow
and the LED very white, the amount of illumination was similar.
You're right should have compared lumens earlier on.
The maker's website
http://www.lithonia.com/commercial/2-head+led+floodlight+with+motion+sensor.html#.VDrPJ1fDuM0
says about the one I was interested in "Each head contains (3) 4780K
high performance LEDs. Lumen output of 1,222 "
That's total for both heads. 1719 Lumens for a 3-head version.
Then I looked at 100 watt incandescent. Between 1000 and 1500 lumen
times 2 bulbs = 2000 to 3000 lumen.
So I don't know whether to buy 1222 LED lumens for $117 or 1719 lumens
for $150.
Or stay with incandescent for maybe $35 and hope they don't burn out so
fast if I get a good brand that doesn't turn on with the wind. I
almost never go there at night so if they don't turn on in the wind,
they'll burn less than 5 hours a year 2000 hour lifespan will be 400
years. Ugh.
50W LED flood is around 4,000 Lumens...and you can get them for around
$80USD @ Home Depot.
Do try to get ones that are UL (or CSA for Canada) approved for safety's
sake.
John :-#)#
Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 13/10/2014 8:58 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
**In general terms, halogen flood lights are capable of between 5 ~ 10
Lumens/Watt.
**Oops. Make that 15 ~ 20 Lumens/Watt.
Still quite mediocre. I've been building my own LED retrofits for
indoor lighting, using Cree 100 Lm/W LEDs. When you add the power
supply, you are down to 80 Lm/W or so, but that is still pretty
good, even better than good CFLs.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 12:20:25 +0100, Charlie+ <charlie@xxx.net> wrote:
Air source or ground source Heatpump might be the answer for your water
heating by electricity - worth a look? C+
Thanks. I didn't know a heat pump water heater existed. As I skim
thruogh the online literature, I read that heat pumps are good for
room heating/cooling, but not so good for heating water. Some larger
ones use a water tank for a heat conducting fluid, but the water is
not meant to be consumed. There are heat pump water heaters:
http://energy.gov/energysaver/articles/heat-pump-water-heaters
but those are geothermal, not air source. Looking at prices, such
water heaters start at about $1,000 plus installation. I haven't run
the numbers yet, but I suspect the expected savings in electricity
would not cover the cost of the installed system within its expected
lifetime (or mine). I'll do some more reading and see where it leads.
Thanks again.
My solution to the hot water problem is a nuclear powered water
heater. Just a lump of some isotope that produces heat while breaking
down. Fukushima should have plenty of the stuff worth mining. The
nuclear water heater would be lead lined and buried for safety. Water
temperature would be regulated by adding or removing radioactive
pellets. There are also some safety issues that will need to be
addressed.
Actually, this is all academic as we're having a water shortage in
California and unless it rains this winter, there isn't going to be
any water to heat. Meanwhile, I'll probably just do a better job of
insulating the tank and hot water pipes and wait patiently for the
rain and a nuclear water heater.
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 09:07:01 -0700, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com
wrote as underneath :
My solution to the hot water problem is a nuclear powered water
heater. Just a lump of some isotope that produces heat while breaking
down. Fukushima should have plenty of the stuff worth mining. The
nuclear water heater would be lead lined and buried for safety. Water
temperature would be regulated by adding or removing radioactive
pellets. There are also some safety issues that will need to be
addressed.
Actually, this is all academic as we're having a water shortage in
California and unless it rains this winter, there isn't going to be
any water to heat. Meanwhile, I'll probably just do a better job of
insulating the tank and hot water pipes and wait patiently for the
rain and a nuclear water heater.
Interesting, I am UK based and energy costs here are probably much
higher here than in US which may alter the costings so much that a heat
pump wont be feasible for you... Here is a link for info that might
help:
http://www.wharfplumbing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Wharf-Air-Source-Heat-Pump-Docs.zip
I checked with Ebay.com and ebay.co.uk - completely different answers if
you feed in 'air source/water heat pump'.
The low cost heatpumps are mostly produced in China anyway and I guess
many are sold in the US for pool heating and air conditioning? But if
your electricity costs are low then the payback time on the equipment
may not make sense just for a little domestic hot water... Ground
source is much more expensive on the outlay than air source! C+
Interesting, I am UK based and energy costs here are probably much
higher here than in US which may alter the costings so much that a heat
pump wont be feasible for you...
Here is a link for info that might help:
http://www.wharfplumbing.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Wharf-Air-Source-Heat-Pump-Docs.zip
I checked with Ebay.com and ebay.co.uk - completely different answers if
you feed in 'air source/water heat pump'.
The low cost heatpumps are mostly produced in China anyway and I guess
many are sold in the US for pool heating and air conditioning?
But if
your electricity costs are low then the payback time on the equipment
may not make sense just for a little domestic hot water... Ground
source is much more expensive on the outlay than air source! C+
If you are sensitive to strobing you should be wary of lights thatOn Mon, 13 Oct 2014 01:06:30 +0200, nestork
nestork.e80c168@diybanter.com> wrote:
I have a Pelican flashlight with a single LED light source. That
flashlight is brighter than the old equivalent model Pelican Flashlights
with the incandescent bulbs.
So, yes, LED's can be brighter than incandescent bulbs.
I expect you'll have no problems with the LED flood light.
Thanks all.
It turns out this time that the HD price is the same as Amazon, maybe
less, but I just went to the store** and it wasn't in stock. I'm in no
hurry. I'll ship it to the store, or maybe to my house (over 50 dollars
shipping is free)
BTW, it got quite a few complaints about strobing or breaking within a
year on the Amazon site (and also on the HD site that was hard to read)
but overall still scored a 4.8 out of 5 (which should really be 3.8 out
of 4)
**HD didn't have any LED Lithonia floodlights, even though they had a 6
foot wide section, 15 feet high, of Lithonia floodlights etc.
Including a motion sensor that would wirelessly turn on an off mulitple
light sockets. And another one that would turn on and off a receptacle,
and beep when it did so.
WRT lights for the front door, they had Zenith/Heath that had low
lighting for 2, 4 hours or all night, and high lighting if the motion
sensor saw something. And some of the lights by Hampton Bay (house
brand?) had sensor that could control 325 watts, even though the most
that could be used in the light was 100. The other 225 could be
elsewhere, powered by the extra red wire. Lighting has gotten more
complicated since last I looked.
On Sun, 12 Oct 2014 19:57:42 -0400, micky <NONONOmisc07@bigfoot.com
wrote:
On Mon, 13 Oct 2014 01:06:30 +0200, nestork
nestork.e80c168@diybanter.com> wrote:
I have a Pelican flashlight with a single LED light source. That
flashlight is brighter than the old equivalent model Pelican Flashlights
with the incandescent bulbs.
So, yes, LED's can be brighter than incandescent bulbs.
I expect you'll have no problems with the LED flood light.
Thanks all.
It turns out this time that the HD price is the same as Amazon, maybe
less, but I just went to the store** and it wasn't in stock. I'm in no
hurry. I'll ship it to the store, or maybe to my house (over 50 dollars
shipping is free)
BTW, it got quite a few complaints about strobing or breaking within a
year on the Amazon site (and also on the HD site that was hard to read)
but overall still scored a 4.8 out of 5 (which should really be 3.8 out
of 4)
**HD didn't have any LED Lithonia floodlights, even though they had a 6
foot wide section, 15 feet high, of Lithonia floodlights etc.
Including a motion sensor that would wirelessly turn on an off mulitple
light sockets. And another one that would turn on and off a receptacle,
and beep when it did so.
WRT lights for the front door, they had Zenith/Heath that had low
lighting for 2, 4 hours or all night, and high lighting if the motion
sensor saw something. And some of the lights by Hampton Bay (house
brand?) had sensor that could control 325 watts, even though the most
that could be used in the light was 100. The other 225 could be
elsewhere, powered by the extra red wire. Lighting has gotten more
complicated since last I looked.
If you are sensitive to strobing you should be wary of lights that
others complain of strobing . Some fluorescent lights I have appear
to flicker in my peripheral vision. Not only is this distracting just
because of the flickering or strobing, I also find myself constantly
looking for whatever is moving. Using incandescent lighting along with
fluorescent lighting cures the strobing or flickering effect for me so
I have both in my shop. I can't detect the strobing by looking
directly at the lights, it is only in my peripheral vision. This of
course makes sense. I want to change to LED lighting and have been
looking at several types and brands of lighting. Part of the problem
is getting lighting that is the right color for me. The industry seems
to be making LED lighting now that is pretty good for most folks so I
am hopeful that in the near future I will be able to convert my
machine shop and house to LEDs.
Eric
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 07:43:04 +0100, Charlie+ <charlie@xxx.net> wrote:
Interesting, I am UK based and energy costs here are probably much
higher here than in US which may alter the costings so much that a heat
pump wont be feasible for you...
....
Incidentally, you might be amused at how water heaters are rated and
priced. A few years ago, the bottom of my 40 gallon electric water
heater filled with calcium carbonate causing the lower heating element
to blow out. It was rusted in place and not easily replaced. The
heater was old, so I decided a new heater was best. I went to the
local Home Depot store and noticed that heaters were rated and priced
by their warranty life as 6, 9, and 12 year heaters. Current prices
are:
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Residential-Electric/N-5yc1vZc1u1Z2bcu0t?NCNI-5
$248, $338, and $548 respectively. I asked what was the difference
and received a few bad guesses. The weight of these heaters was
exactly the same, so there was no difference in tank design or
construction. The 6 year heater used lower power elements, but that
shouldn't effect the cost.
I eventually determined that the primary difference was the anode
protection rod in each heater. The 6 year heater used a very small
anode rod. The 9 year used a much larger anode. The 12 year had dual
anodes. The problem was the rods cost about $25/each which is
reflected in the $100 to $200 price difference between the three
models. The 6 year heater had the port for the 2nd anode sealed shut,
so I bought the 9 year model, and added a 2nd anode for a cost of
about $25. Net savings from the 12 year model:
$548 - $338 - $25 = $185
I also installed a permanent drain line, so that the calcium carbonate
will not accumulate again.
But if
your electricity costs are low then the payback time on the equipment
may not make sense just for a little domestic hot water... Ground
source is much more expensive on the outlay than air source! C+
Yep. That's the problem. The most efficient system is not always the
most economical.
Of course you should change your anode every few years - assuming you
can extract it. The house we bought last summer has a replaceable anode
but I can't unscrew it. The tank will fail in a year or two, but then
I'm looking for one with a replaceable anode and do a bi-annual change.
Incidentally, you might be amused at how water heaters are rated and
priced. A few years ago, the bottom of my 40 gallon electric water
heater filled with calcium carbonate causing the lower heating element
to blow out. It was rusted in place and not easily replaced. The
heater was old, so I decided a new heater was best. I went to the
local Home Depot store and noticed that heaters were rated and priced
by their warranty life as 6, 9, and 12 year heaters. Current prices
are:
http://www.homedepot.com/b/Plumbing-Water-Heaters-Residential-Electric/N-5yc1vZc1u1Z2bcu0t?NCNI-5
$248, $338, and $548 respectively. I asked what was the difference
and received a few bad guesses. The weight of these heaters was
exactly the same, so there was no difference in tank design or
construction. The 6 year heater used lower power elements, but that
shouldn't effect the cost.
I eventually determined that the primary difference was the anode
protection rod in each heater. The 6 year heater used a very small
anode rod. The 9 year used a much larger anode. The 12 year had dual
anodes. The problem was the rods cost about $25/each which is
reflected in the $100 to $200 price difference between the three
models. The 6 year heater had the port for the 2nd anode sealed shut,
so I bought the 9 year model, and added a 2nd anode for a cost of
about $25. Net savings from the 12 year model:
$548 - $338 - $25 = $185
I also installed a permanent drain line, so that the calcium carbonate
will not accumulate again.
snip
What are these tanks made of that they need sacrificial anodes (of
magnesium etc. I assume)? As far as I know over here most/all these type
of tanks and cylinders are Cu sheet and have no anodes of this type.. !
Informative post tho! C+
On Tue, 14 Oct 2014 20:32:01 -0700, John Robertson <spam@flippers.com
wrote:
Of course you should change your anode every few years - assuming you
can extract it. The house we bought last summer has a replaceable anode
but I can't unscrew it. The tank will fail in a year or two, but then
I'm looking for one with a replaceable anode and do a bi-annual change.
I learned a few lessons trying to extract the anode rod from the old
tank. With the tank empty, a long handled "torque amplifier" did a
great job of twisting the water heater jacket into a simulated
pretzel. I didn't know I was that strong. It might have survived if
it had water inside and I didn't put my foot on the jacket when
applying brute force. Learn by Destroying(tm).
When I mentioned the problem to a plumber, he indicated that it was a
common problem, and that an electric or pneumatic impact wrench works
much better. I didn't have a reason to try it, so I don't know if
that's really a good idea. Also, when I installed the 2nd anode rod,
I smeared it with some edible grease. Insulating it with Teflon tape
doesn't seem like a good idea. In a year or two, try the impact
wrench.
I found some instructions on how to remove the rod, which recommends
WD-40 and an impact wrench. Getting the WD-40 out of the water is
going to be interesting since it's not water soluble.
http://waterheatertimer.org/Replace-anode-rod.html
In my derangement, I didn't have enough clearance above the water
heater to insert or remove the rod. They make anodes that are on a
chain to make it possible to replace them without proper clearance,
but I didn't buy one of those. So, I tipped over the water heater,
inserted the 2nd rod, tipped it back up, and continued the
installation. When it's time to replace either rod, I'll need to
drain the heater, disconnect everything, tip it over again, and
extract the rods. Not fun, bad planning, etc.
I'm not sure of the exact anode replacement interval. The previous
water heater lasted about 15 years before the lime accumulation killed
the lower heater element. I assume the lifetime is affected by
whatever is in the water. Inspecting the anode rod would be helpful,
but if it's stuck or difficult to remove, that might be difficult.
Good luck and how did we get from LED lighting to water heaters?