Boris Johnson

[Michael Terrell]

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 4:11:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:45:40 -0700 (PDT), mpm wrote:

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 3:07:27 PM UTC-4, Ricky C wrote:
On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 1:35:36 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:

Why would anyone hoard hand sanitizer? They can get all they want at Walmart entrances.


Maybe so, but you have to bring your own batteries to get it.

And what about toilet paper?
Were the public bathrooms at Walmart ransacked?

I wouldn't put it past some people.

We have friends who never buy sugar. They steal the little packets
from cafes.

I have only bought one bag of sugar in over 15 years. I mix it with Boric Acid and use it in my storage building to kill bugs. I don't use it when I cook.

 

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell
<terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote:

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 4:11:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 12:45:40 -0700 (PDT), mpm wrote:

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 3:07:27 PM UTC-4, Ricky C wrote:
On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 1:35:36 PM UTC-4, mpm wrote:

Why would anyone hoard hand sanitizer? They can get all they want at Walmart entrances.


Maybe so, but you have to bring your own batteries to get it.

And what about toilet paper?
Were the public bathrooms at Walmart ransacked?

I wouldn't put it past some people.

We have friends who never buy sugar. They steal the little packets
from cafes.

I have only bought one bag of sugar in over 15 years. I mix it with Boric Acid and use it in my storage building to kill bugs. I don't use it when I cook.

We must be biased different. I like the turbinado (technically
first-press) sugar in my coffee. That takes a 2 lb box every month or
so.

Since it's processed less than white sugar, of course it costs more. I
used to get it free by the bucket from a cane mill.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

[Ricky C]

I just read that Boris Johnson has been moved out of the ICU, so it looks like he wiil eventually end up in the "recovered" column rather than the "death" column.

Get well Boris!

--

Rick C.

+++ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
+++ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 09/04/2020 04:07, Ricky C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:46:22 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:
On Wednesday, 8 April 2020 15:50:02 UTC-4, Ricky C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 2:57:16 PM UTC-4, Phil Hobbs
wrote:
On 2020-04-08 13:39, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 13:13:25 -0400, Phil Hobbs
pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote:

On 2020-04-08 13:06, legg wrote:
On Wed, 8 Apr 2020 09:10:00 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell
terrell.michael.a@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

China buys boatloads of used Corrugated Paper Boxes to
recycle. I bought a small air compressor a couple years
ago. They had glued a new layer on top of pieces cut
from larger boxes, rather than make new corrugated
paper.

The used paper gets shipped there on empty cargo ships
returning from deliveries around the world.

You can't make PPE from recycled cardboard, or
newspaper. Cardboard and newspaper is largely ground-wood
(think construction paper, from Kindergarden)and binder.

Filtering PPE draws heavily on virgin 'sulphite' bales.
Requires heavy chemical processing and post processing
for fibre length and 'wet-strength'.

RL



Absolute filters are often made by dissolving
polyethersulphone or polyphenyleneethersulphone in an
organic solvent such as NMP and adding water, which makes
it into a very uniform foam that can be cast into all sorts
of shapes.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

There's an article in today's paper about making masks. One
cuts up old t-shirts. My favorite is made from a bandana and
a coffee filter.




I got a couple of N99s plus refills back at the end of
February.

They survive being sprayed with diluted bleach just fine. I
gave one of them to our world traveller, in case she hadn't had
Wu 'flu yet.

Can't these things be sanitized by liberal application of time?
I'm told on smooth surfaces the virus may last as long as 72
hours. Surfaces like cardboard it survives only 24 hours.

So laying the mask aside for a day should do a pretty good job of
mitigating the risk of reuse.

That's how I cleanse my groceries. I put the cans in the pantry
for a few days before use. I let the cardboard boxes sit over
night. I wash my hands and face after returning from the store
and putting the food away.

Has anyone said diluted bleach will even do anything against this
virus? Bleach isn't a cure all necessarily.


Dilute bleach is the general purpose disinfectant for walls, floors
etc. recommended by the Chinese in their hospitals. 1000mg/l, so
about 50:1 from 5.25% bleach. They recommend leaving it for 30
minutes.

There's the key, 30 minutes. Very few people do that. Like the
shopping cart handles, spray, wipe without hesitation.

The wiping is also useful for physically removing virus particles, and
especially droplets that cover the particles.

30 minutes is unnecessarily long for most purposes, but leaving it for
some time is useful. The bleach breaks down the proteins in the virus
shell, and works against all viruses (AFAIK). The time it takes will
depend somewhat on how protected they are by mucus droplets. And you
get an exponential decay of the active particles - a half-life, if you will.

So wiping with a bleach-soaked cloth will significantly reduce the risk
of infection, but not eliminate it.

For higher levels of contamination, more like 10:1.

That's the usual recommendation for disinfection of surfaces and
objects. Use 100:1 for hand sanitisation, as an alternative to alcohol.
(For the good of your hands, prefer soap and water and only use
alcohol if the soap and water is impractical or unavailable. And only
use dilute bleach if alcohol sanitizers are unavailable.)

And for the most critical stuff, peroxyacetic acid, followed by
ethylene oxide sterilization.

What happened to 30 seconds of alcohol?

Usually it is too expensive to waste on large surfaces. Dilute bleach
is cheap and plentiful.

I thought I read that Russians were using something other than
bleach in the aid they sent to Italy to clean retirement homes and
such like.

Personally, I'm using 10:1 bleach spray for incoming mail, boxes
and such like. Soap and water for other things. And a timed
temperature-ozone treatment for other things.

We're looking at doing something on a more industrial scale, with a
different approach.

I'm happy with the 24 hour treatment. No bleach, no soap and the
alcohol stays in my glass.

That reminds me. I'm ready for some more of my cure-all, anti-virus
treatment, Basil Hayden. It works best internally. It also has a
lot fewer side effects than hydroxychloroquine.

 

[Ricky C]

On Friday, April 10, 2020 at 8:24:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 09/04/2020 04:07, Ricky C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:46:22 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:

Dilute bleach is the general purpose disinfectant for walls, floors
etc. recommended by the Chinese in their hospitals. 1000mg/l, so
about 50:1 from 5.25% bleach. They recommend leaving it for 30
minutes.

There's the key, 30 minutes. Very few people do that. Like the
shopping cart handles, spray, wipe without hesitation.


The wiping is also useful for physically removing virus particles, and
especially droplets that cover the particles.

Wiping does relatively little to remove or disinfect the viruses. In other applications wiping is not even allowed because it only serves to spread infectious elements. What does the work is the chemicals used and that takes time.

30 minutes is unnecessarily long for most purposes, but leaving it for
some time is useful. The bleach breaks down the proteins in the virus
shell, and works against all viruses (AFAIK). The time it takes will
depend somewhat on how protected they are by mucus droplets. And you
get an exponential decay of the active particles - a half-life, if you will.

So wiping with a bleach-soaked cloth will significantly reduce the risk
of infection, but not eliminate it.

You were making sense until your conclusion. A quick wipe with diluted bleach is not going to accomplish much. It may not take 30 minutes to kill the virus, but wiping is pretty much pointless. The CDC says, "Leave [the bleach] solution on the surface for at least 1 minute". That's a far cry from a bleach wipe.

Even washing your hands with soap and water they say you need to continue scrubbing for at least 20 seconds. Soap is very effective against nearly all infectious elements. It both removes them in solution and neutralizes them by dissolving lipids. Lipids are part of what holds a virus particle together. So in soapy water the virus just falls apart. Much more effective and easier to use than bleach.

For higher levels of contamination, more like 10:1.

That's the usual recommendation for disinfection of surfaces and
objects. Use 100:1 for hand sanitisation, as an alternative to alcohol.
(For the good of your hands, prefer soap and water and only use
alcohol if the soap and water is impractical or unavailable. And only
use dilute bleach if alcohol sanitizers are unavailable.)


And for the most critical stuff, peroxyacetic acid, followed by
ethylene oxide sterilization.

What happened to 30 seconds of alcohol?


Usually it is too expensive to waste on large surfaces. Dilute bleach
is cheap and plentiful.

Soap and water are just as effective and even cheaper and easier to use. But just like the bleach, it has to be used correctly. A quick wipe doesn't do it.

The advantages of soap and water over bleach are indicated in every reference I've found that talks about both.

--

Rick C.

---- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[David Brown]

On 10/04/2020 15:20, Ricky C wrote:

On Friday, April 10, 2020 at 8:24:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 09/04/2020 04:07, Ricky C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:46:22 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:

Dilute bleach is the general purpose disinfectant for walls,
floors etc. recommended by the Chinese in their hospitals.
1000mg/l, so about 50:1 from 5.25% bleach. They recommend
leaving it for 30 minutes.

There's the key, 30 minutes. Very few people do that. Like the
shopping cart handles, spray, wipe without hesitation.


The wiping is also useful for physically removing virus particles,
and especially droplets that cover the particles.

Wiping does relatively little to remove or disinfect the viruses. In
other applications wiping is not even allowed because it only serves
to spread infectious elements. What does the work is the chemicals
used and that takes time.

I agree that the best methods depend on the circumstances, and that
sometimes wiping will spread the thing you are trying to remove.

But for hard surfaces, wiping with a damp cloth /will/ remove much of
the infectious elements.

This is really quite simple. Most of the virus particles will be in
droplets (from coughs, sneezes, etc.). Wiping with a cloth dampened
with disinfectant will physically remove those droplets. There will be
traces left, but also traces of the disinfectant left - and without the
droplets covering the virus particles, the disinfectant works faster.

In experiments done using different kinds of cleaning methods on kitchen
surfaces (the emphasis here was on bacteria, not viruses), it was found
that the best choice was a slightly damp microfibre cloth. Take the
cloth directly from the washing machine after spinning, but not other
drying - that was the ideal level of dampness. Wiping with that cloth
with nothing but /water/ on it removed as much or more bacteria than
most other methods - even a solid wash in bleach made little significant
difference.

Of course the wiping on shopping cart handles has to be done properly,
with very limited re-use of the cloth, for example.

30 minutes is unnecessarily long for most purposes, but leaving it
for some time is useful. The bleach breaks down the proteins in
the virus shell, and works against all viruses (AFAIK). The time
it takes will depend somewhat on how protected they are by mucus
droplets. And you get an exponential decay of the active particles
- a half-life, if you will.

So wiping with a bleach-soaked cloth will significantly reduce the
risk of infection, but not eliminate it.

You were making sense until your conclusion. A quick wipe with
diluted bleach is not going to accomplish much. It may not take 30
minutes to kill the virus, but wiping is pretty much pointless. The
CDC says, "Leave [the bleach] solution on the surface for at least 1
minute". That's a far cry from a bleach wipe.

You are not going to eliminate the risk of infection from shopping. The
aim is to use practical measures that significantly reduce the risk.
Since you cannot practically leave shopping cart handles soaking in
bleach for a minute (how could that be done?), you do the best you can
in a real-world situation. And you combine it with a range of other
methods (distancing, hand sanitizer, staff wearing gloves, etc.) that
all contribute.

As a customer, you avoid touching your face and wash your hands well the
first chance you get.

Even washing your hands with soap and water they say you need to
continue scrubbing for at least 20 seconds. Soap is very effective
against nearly all infectious elements. It both removes them in
solution and neutralizes them by dissolving lipids. Lipids are part
of what holds a virus particle together. So in soapy water the virus
just falls apart. Much more effective and easier to use than
bleach.

Soap and water is excellent for both hands and surfaces - no doubt
there. It won't work well on all pathogens - some have relatively few
lipids on their outer shells. But generally, it's great for all the
reasons you gave.

For higher levels of contamination, more like 10:1.

That's the usual recommendation for disinfection of surfaces and
objects. Use 100:1 for hand sanitisation, as an alternative to
alcohol. (For the good of your hands, prefer soap and water and
only use alcohol if the soap and water is impractical or
unavailable. And only use dilute bleach if alcohol sanitizers are
unavailable.)


And for the most critical stuff, peroxyacetic acid, followed
by ethylene oxide sterilization.

What happened to 30 seconds of alcohol?


Usually it is too expensive to waste on large surfaces. Dilute
bleach is cheap and plentiful.

Soap and water are just as effective and even cheaper and easier to
use. But just like the bleach, it has to be used correctly. A quick
wipe doesn't do it.

The advantages of soap and water over bleach are indicated in every
reference I've found that talks about both.

Yes, I agree.

 

[Michael Terrell]

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 10:23:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell wrote:

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 4:11:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

We have friends who never buy sugar. They steal the little packets
from cafes.

I have only bought one bag of sugar in over 15 years. I mix it with Boric Acid and use it in my storage building to kill bugs. I don't use it when I cook.

We must be biased different. I like the turbinado (technically
first-press) sugar in my coffee. That takes a 2 lb box every month or
so.

Since it's processed less than white sugar, of course it costs more. I
used to get it free by the bucket from a cane mill.

It's not that I don't like it, I just quit using it when I learned that I'm a Diabetic.

Have you ever tried Sorghum? It is cooked down from cane sugar. It's a specialty cash crop for some farmers. Each producer did it slightly different, so each had a flavor of its own. My grandparents in Eastern Kentucky had people who came back, year after year to buy a year's supply. There are still producers in their area, even though both have been gone over 50 years. Menifee County, Kentucky was considered the best in the world at one time. Here is a short video of their equipment in operation in 2007: The last time that I saw Ron, he was a little kid.

<https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4NqgzW9KLo>

 

[Ricky C]

On Friday, April 10, 2020 at 3:48:15 PM UTC-4, Michael Terrell wrote:

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 10:23:33 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 17:06:01 -0700 (PDT), Michael Terrell wrote:

On Thursday, April 9, 2020 at 4:11:07 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

We have friends who never buy sugar. They steal the little packets
from cafes.

I have only bought one bag of sugar in over 15 years. I mix it with Boric Acid and use it in my storage building to kill bugs. I don't use it when I cook.

We must be biased different. I like the turbinado (technically
first-press) sugar in my coffee. That takes a 2 lb box every month or
so.

Since it's processed less than white sugar, of course it costs more. I
used to get it free by the bucket from a cane mill.


It's not that I don't like it, I just quit using it when I learned that I'm a Diabetic.

Have you ever tried Sorghum? It is cooked down from cane sugar. It's a specialty cash crop for some farmers. Each producer did it slightly different, so each had a flavor of its own. My grandparents in Eastern Kentucky had people who came back, year after year to buy a year's supply. There are still producers in their area, even though both have been gone over 50 years. Menifee County, Kentucky was considered the best in the world at one time. Here is a short video of their equipment in operation in 2007: The last time that I saw Ron, he was a little kid.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f4NqgzW9KLo

When you say "cane sugar" that usually mean sugar from sugarcane. They refer to sorghum plants as canes, but this is a different plant than sugarcane.. To make sorghum syrup I think they start with sorghum sugar.

--

Rick C.

--+- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
--+- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Ricky C]

On Friday, April 10, 2020 at 9:56:45 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:

On 10/04/2020 15:20, Ricky C wrote:
On Friday, April 10, 2020 at 8:24:01 AM UTC-4, David Brown wrote:
On 09/04/2020 04:07, Ricky C wrote:
On Wednesday, April 8, 2020 at 9:46:22 PM UTC-4, speff wrote:

Dilute bleach is the general purpose disinfectant for walls,
floors etc. recommended by the Chinese in their hospitals.
1000mg/l, so about 50:1 from 5.25% bleach. They recommend
leaving it for 30 minutes.

There's the key, 30 minutes. Very few people do that. Like the
shopping cart handles, spray, wipe without hesitation.


The wiping is also useful for physically removing virus particles,
and especially droplets that cover the particles.

Wiping does relatively little to remove or disinfect the viruses. In
other applications wiping is not even allowed because it only serves
to spread infectious elements. What does the work is the chemicals
used and that takes time.


I agree that the best methods depend on the circumstances, and that
sometimes wiping will spread the thing you are trying to remove.

But for hard surfaces, wiping with a damp cloth /will/ remove much of
the infectious elements.

OK, rather than lecture you, I'll propose an experiment. Put some slightly diluted food coloring into a spray bottle so you can see the micro droplets after you spray this onto your counter. Then wipe with a "damp cloth". You will very quickly see that this accomplishes pretty much nothing other than smearing the color around. Also keep in mind that this will be easier to remove than the viral aerosol because it is mostly water and is readily miscible. The aerosol from your coughing or even breathing is from your bodily fluids which have much more viscous elements and does not immediately dissolve in the moisture of the "damp cloth".

The chemicals are what do the heavy lifting in disinfecting counters.

This is really quite simple. Most of the virus particles will be in
droplets (from coughs, sneezes, etc.). Wiping with a cloth dampened
with disinfectant will physically remove those droplets. There will be
traces left, but also traces of the disinfectant left - and without the
droplets covering the virus particles, the disinfectant works faster.

In experiments done using different kinds of cleaning methods on kitchen
surfaces (the emphasis here was on bacteria, not viruses), it was found
that the best choice was a slightly damp microfibre cloth. Take the
cloth directly from the washing machine after spinning, but not other
drying - that was the ideal level of dampness. Wiping with that cloth
with nothing but /water/ on it removed as much or more bacteria than
most other methods - even a solid wash in bleach made little significant
difference.

Of course the wiping on shopping cart handles has to be done properly,
with very limited re-use of the cloth, for example.

Let me know when you've tried the experiment.

30 minutes is unnecessarily long for most purposes, but leaving it
for some time is useful. The bleach breaks down the proteins in
the virus shell, and works against all viruses (AFAIK). The time
it takes will depend somewhat on how protected they are by mucus
droplets. And you get an exponential decay of the active particles
- a half-life, if you will.

So wiping with a bleach-soaked cloth will significantly reduce the
risk of infection, but not eliminate it.

You were making sense until your conclusion. A quick wipe with
diluted bleach is not going to accomplish much. It may not take 30
minutes to kill the virus, but wiping is pretty much pointless. The
CDC says, "Leave [the bleach] solution on the surface for at least 1
minute". That's a far cry from a bleach wipe.


You are not going to eliminate the risk of infection from shopping. The
aim is to use practical measures that significantly reduce the risk.

The key word there is "significantly". A quick wipe with a paper towel isn't going to do much.

Since you cannot practically leave shopping cart handles soaking in
bleach for a minute (how could that be done?), you do the best you can
in a real-world situation. And you combine it with a range of other
methods (distancing, hand sanitizer, staff wearing gloves, etc.) that
all contribute.

Exactly the reason to not even consider bleach. Silly idea, a dangerous solution and easily replaced with soap. I take a can of foaming cleaner (for windows I think). Spray it on and wait 20 seconds. Then I wipe with a paper towel and use that to open refrigerated cases in the store.

As a customer, you avoid touching your face and wash your hands well the
first chance you get.

Even washing your hands with soap and water they say you need to
continue scrubbing for at least 20 seconds. Soap is very effective
against nearly all infectious elements. It both removes them in
solution and neutralizes them by dissolving lipids. Lipids are part
of what holds a virus particle together. So in soapy water the virus
just falls apart. Much more effective and easier to use than
bleach.

Soap and water is excellent for both hands and surfaces - no doubt
there. It won't work well on all pathogens - some have relatively few
lipids on their outer shells. But generally, it's great for all the
reasons you gave.

Soap and water is the recommended depathoginizing method by the CDC. It works well on all pathogens I'm aware of. It doesn't have to be lipids, but in this case the coronavirus is held together with lipids. Which pathogens is soap and water not recommended for?

For higher levels of contamination, more like 10:1.

That's the usual recommendation for disinfection of surfaces and
objects. Use 100:1 for hand sanitisation, as an alternative to
alcohol. (For the good of your hands, prefer soap and water and
only use alcohol if the soap and water is impractical or
unavailable. And only use dilute bleach if alcohol sanitizers are
unavailable.)


And for the most critical stuff, peroxyacetic acid, followed
by ethylene oxide sterilization.

What happened to 30 seconds of alcohol?


Usually it is too expensive to waste on large surfaces. Dilute
bleach is cheap and plentiful.

Soap and water are just as effective and even cheaper and easier to
use. But just like the bleach, it has to be used correctly. A quick
wipe doesn't do it.

The advantages of soap and water over bleach are indicated in every
reference I've found that talks about both.


Yes, I agree.

Ok, I guess that says it all.

--

Rick C.

---+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
---+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209