Better Rate of Growth Data

[Tom Gardner]

On 31/03/20 21:18, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 3:52:47 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 19:50, dcaster@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner
wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs -
scroll down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan
and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the
raw data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the
first website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for
taking them seriously I did point out that that they did say where
they got their data from, but that my main reason for using them
was the fact that they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out."
And the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the
data the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around
here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to
the US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are
bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that is correctly afraid
that their philosophy is about to become very unpopular. Unless there is a
big smokescreen people will eventually realise that big government will do
a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals, unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference. But I
think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some
with market forces being dominate. _And you are wrong about market forces
not being able to remove companies. Currently the retail companies are
changing or being removed.

Read what I wrote. Your comments have zero relevance to that!
Hint: individuals cannot remove companies (but they can remove
governments)

Individuals can't remove governments. It takes massive movements of the... masses.

The same type of movements can shape and even defeat companies. That's easy, stop buying from them. It has happened many, many times that companies have changed their behavior or even gone out of business as a result of consumer pressure.

Not all companies have individual consumers. Covidien is an example.

It sucks to pay a lot more for health care, but it is nice to have
companies working on manufacturing ventilators and developing vaccines.

Except when companies deliberately thwart that.

Here's how market forces are killing Americans from Covid-19, by preventing the
manufacture of low-cost ventilators that would undercut expensive existing
product lines.....

It was 2010 and Newport Medical Instruments, a small medical device company in
Costa Mesa, California, was excited. They had just signed a federal contract to
design and build up to 40,000 mobile ventilators, which would be placed into the
national stockpile in the interest of pandemic preparedness. After SARS and bird
flu and swine flu, the government needed to steel itself should a deadly
infectious disease go viral.

Newport agreed to deliver the devices at a low-cost, not only to maximize
federal purchases but also to build a reputation that could increase sales to
other countries and the private sector. The company sent prototypes within a
year, and was on track for market approval by 2013.

But before that could happen, Covidien, a larger firm, announced a bid to
purchase Newport for $108 million in March 2012. The Federal Trade Commission
didn’t even give it a second look; the deal closed in May. And Covidien sold its
own ventilators. They weren’t interested in developing a new model that could
cut into its existing profits. Covidien immediately asked for more money from
the government, and by 2014 they called off the deal because “it was not
sufficiently profitable for the company.”

https://prospect.org/coronavirus/unsanitized-covidien-story-corporate-america-ventilators/

Not sure what your point is. Such actions have happened more than once where a company buys a smaller company to control a technology they owned. No one forced Newport to sell. It's not like Newport was the only company with a low end product. They seem to be coming out of the woodwork these days.

If people like us decide that Covidien acted improperly we can force our governments to boycott Covidien in future purchases. Of course, that's not going to happen in today's market where they have many more buyers than sellers.

The thrust of the article is that Covidien prevented
another company from providing cheap and plentiful
supplies of ventilators. That's perfectly sensible
from a market forces PoV, and is legal.

The American public will pay the penalty for those
market forces.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference. But I think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some with market forces being dominate.

It's nice to have some countries with big government and some with
market forces because that way the countries with big governments
can still have vaccines, medicines, technology, etc.

But it's always weird to me, in the very middle of a demonstration
of the limitations of centralizing government, to see bigger,
more centralized government being advocated as the solution.

If that's the solution, then why shouldn't all European nations'
health care be centrally coordinated in India (they have a big
government). Or Rome? Or Washington D.C. I mean, why not? For
'efficiency,' right?

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.
Both are less than perfect because people are less than perfect.

I know which people I can help cause to be removed and replaced,
and which people are unaccountable to me and outside my control.

And you are wrong about market forces not being able to remove companies. Currently the retail companies are changing or being removed.

Right. Every single person gets to vote on every company, every day.
And they only get your vote if they're doing something you like,
want, or approve of.

Precisely.

And the Covidien example will probably turn out to be
a classic example of market forces being lethal for
individual people.



>> It sucks to pay a lot more for health care, but it is nice to have companies working on manufacturing ventilators and developing vaccines.

Or working to prevent there being a supply of cheap
plentiful ventilators when the are most needed.

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 5:30:54 AM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 11:05:26 AM UTC-7, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out.." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

How do you know that given that the data out of the Chicomm are completely unreliable?

Your claim that the data is "completely unreliable" is just your demented opinion, driven by the fact that you don't like the Chinese political system - which isn't great, but does seem to work tolerably well.

>We won't know with any certainty UNTIL the Chicomm allow the CDC and WHO into the country. Then, and ONLY then, will I put any credence on Chinese (note that I didn't say Chicomm) data.

WHO is currently seen as being rather more under Chinese control than some observer's like. WHO does seem to have all the access it wants to China's data. The US Centre for Disease Control does have a legitimate interest in what is going on in China, but the Chinese aren't going to regard them as disinterested observers, and certainly aren't going to let them lose to look at anything they feel like, any more than America would give the Chinese equivalent unfettered access to US health data.

> Remember, you are dealing with a government that kills people to sell their organs - GET REAL!!

It doesn't kill people to sell their organs. It seems to have exploited the bodies of recently executed criminal as a source of organs for transplantation, which isn't quite the same thing.Their system may be corrupt enough that more criminals might get condemned to death if there's a shortage of organs for transplantation, but you'd need supporting evidence if you wanted to make that claim, and "supporting evidence" is one of those complicated concepts that you don't have the wit to comprehend.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rick C]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

The thrust of the article is that Covidien prevented
another company from providing cheap and plentiful
supplies of ventilators. That's perfectly sensible
from a market forces PoV, and is legal.

Yup, legal. Doesn't mean we can't sanction them by not buying from them as I clearly said.

The American public will pay the penalty for those
market forces.

Not just us. Their products would have helped the world.

--

Rick C.

-+-- Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-- Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:25:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference. But I think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some with market forces being dominate.

It's nice to have some countries with big government and some with
market forces because that way the countries with big governments
can still have vaccines, medicines, technology, etc.

But it's always weird to me, in the very middle of a demonstration
of the limitations of centralizing government, to see bigger,
more centralized government being advocated as the solution.

If that's the solution, then why shouldn't all European nations'
health care be centrally coordinated in India (they have a big
government). Or Rome? Or Washington D.C. I mean, why not? For
'efficiency,' right?

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.
Both are less than perfect because people are less than perfect.

I know which people I can help cause to be removed and replaced,
and which people are unaccountable to me and outside my control.

You cannot cause bureaucrats to be removed and replaced; they are
unaccountable to you and outside your control. In the present
circumstance, those are the people responsible for a critical
shortage of ventilators in New York, those are the people who erred
fielding tests, and their punishment, in the end, will be to get
more resources.

And you are wrong about market forces not being able to remove companies. Currently the retail companies are changing or being removed.

Right. Every single person gets to vote on every company, every day.
And they only get your vote if they're doing something you like,
want, or approve of.

Precisely.

And the Covidien example will probably turn out to be
a classic example of market forces being lethal for
individual people.

I think rather more people would die if, like in Third World
countries, companies like Coviden are simply expropriated.

If Covidien's thing is so unique, so valuable that it needs to be
stolen from them in an emergency, then it is also something they
would never have developed in the first place, had they'd known
their rights to it were so insecure. We wouldn't have it at all.

That's why Africa's poor. No one bothers trying if it'll just
be taken from you if you succeed.

Meanwhile, where's New York's responsibility in this matter? How
did they wind up the center of this cyclone, and why didn't they
make preparations years ago? Why have they been closing hospitals
and preventing expansions of capacity and equipment?

"New York's Certificate of Need (CON) process governs establishment,
construction, renovation and major medical equipment acquisitions
of health care facilities, such as hospitals, nursing homes, home
care agencies, and diagnostic and treatment centers.

...CON provides the Department of Health oversight in limiting
investment in duplicate beds, services and medical equipment
which, in turn, limits associated health care costs."
https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/

Great. Let's limit competition, because that'll reduce cost and
increase supply!

It sucks to pay a lot more for health care, but it is nice to have companies working on manufacturing ventilators and developing vaccines.

Or working to prevent there being a supply of cheap
plentiful ventilators when the are most needed.

It is a fact that New York City, with its 20-ish odd million
residents, already has approximately twice as many ventilators
as the sixty million residing in the entire U.K.

So, as a starting point, that doesn't seem awful.

But perhaps they should have set aside some of their great wealth
and revenue for foreseeable contingencies, and perhaps they should
have more closely emulated the U.K.'s restraint in the face of the
pandemic, rather than urge their residents to throng together in
public spectacles.

I see every evidence that markets and free enterprise have (and
are) performing magnificently; the gripe seems to be that they are
unable to respond to the hysterical demands of desperate,
irresponsible localities whose profligacy and intemperance
sabotaged their own futures.

It's the grasshopper and the ant.

Cheers,
James Arthur

 

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:25:06 +0100, Tom Gardner
<spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference. But I think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some with market forces being dominate.

It's nice to have some countries with big government and some with
market forces because that way the countries with big governments
can still have vaccines, medicines, technology, etc.

But it's always weird to me, in the very middle of a demonstration
of the limitations of centralizing government, to see bigger,
more centralized government being advocated as the solution.

If that's the solution, then why shouldn't all European nations'
health care be centrally coordinated in India (they have a big
government). Or Rome? Or Washington D.C. I mean, why not? For
'efficiency,' right?

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.

Companies compete.
Governments don't compete.

Companies have to make a profit.
Governments don't have to make a profit.



--

John Larkin Highland Technology, Inc

Science teaches us to doubt.

Claude Bernard

 

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 9:35:28 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:25:06 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.

Companies compete.
Governments don't compete.

Companies have to make a profit.
Governments don't have to make a profit.

Governments are monopolies, with guns.

Cheers,
James

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 12:43:11 PM UTC+11, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 9:35:28 PM UTC-4, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:
On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:25:06 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.

Companies compete.
Governments don't compete.

Companies have to make a profit.
Governments don't have to make a profit.

Governments are monopolies, with guns.

Until the next election.

Proportional representation and coalition governments are rather less like monopolies that a monolithic administration in a two-party state.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 11:56:46 AM UTC+11, dagmarg...@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:25:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:

<snip>

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.
Both are less than perfect because people are less than perfect.

I know which people I can help cause to be removed and replaced,
and which people are unaccountable to me and outside my control.

You cannot cause bureaucrats to be removed and replaced; they are
unaccountable to you and outside your control.

But you can write to your congress person or - for within-state business to your local representative in the state legislature.

In the present
circumstance, those are the people responsible for a critical
shortage of ventilators in New York, those are the people who erred
fielding tests, and their punishment, in the end, will be to get
more resources.

And you are wrong about market forces not being able to remove companies. Currently the retail companies are changing or being removed.

Right. Every single person gets to vote on every company, every day.
And they only get your vote if they're doing something you like,
want, or approve of.

Precisely.

And the Covidien example will probably turn out to be
a classic example of market forces being lethal for
individual people.

I think rather more people would die if, like in Third World
countries, companies like Coviden are simply expropriated.

There is a middle way, where company takeovers are assessed for their effect on competition within their market.

Australia has one. The US has anti-trust legislation which should have the same effect, but clearly didn't in this particular case.

https://www.accc.gov.au/

If Covidien's thing is so unique, so valuable that it needs to be
stolen from them in an emergency, then it is also something they
would never have developed in the first place, had they'd known
their rights to it were so insecure. We wouldn't have it at all.

James Arthur loves the fallacy of the excluded middle.

That's why Africa's poor. No one bothers trying if it'll just
be taken from you if you succeed.

Africa has other problems.

https://www.dandc.eu/en/article/literacy-rates-have-risen-sub-saharan-africa-reality-probably-worse-official-numbers-suggest

"The statistics show that the literacy rate for sub-Saharan Africa was 65 % in 2017."

Meanwhile, where's New York's responsibility in this matter? How
did they wind up the center of this cyclone, and why didn't they
make preparations years ago? Why have they been closing hospitals
and preventing expansions of capacity and equipment?

"New York's Certificate of Need (CON) process governs establishment,
construction, renovation and major medical equipment acquisitions
of health care facilities, such as hospitals, nursing homes, home
care agencies, and diagnostic and treatment centers.

...CON provides the Department of Health oversight in limiting
investment in duplicate beds, services and medical equipment
which, in turn, limits associated health care costs."
https://www.health.ny.gov/facilities/cons/

Great. Let's limit competition, because that'll reduce cost and
increase supply!

Having beds, space and services that you don't use costs money.

Competition isn't a magic wand, and it certainly doesn't make US health care cheaper head than anyplace else - it actually costs half again more per head than the most expensive universal health care systems, and doesn't seem to perform any better.

It sucks to pay a lot more for health care, but it is nice to have companies working on manufacturing ventilators and developing vaccines.

Or working to prevent there being a supply of cheap
plentiful ventilators when the are most needed.

It is a fact that New York City, with its 20-ish odd million
residents, already has approximately twice as many ventilators
as the sixty million residing in the entire U.K.

So, as a starting point, that doesn't seem awful.

But perhaps they should have set aside some of their great wealth
and revenue for foreseeable contingencies, and perhaps they should
have more closely emulated the U.K.'s restraint in the face of the
pandemic, rather than urge their residents to throng together in
public spectacles.

I see every evidence that markets and free enterprise have (and
are) performing magnificently;

James Arthur's patented right-wing blinkers deliver that result with remarkable reliability.

He manages to ignore the fact that China's despised political system delivered much the same kind of rapidly curve-flattening as South Korea's, while America's glorious free-enterprise system has now managed to deliver twice as many Covid19 infections as China and more deaths, despite having had a month or so to contemplate how those two countries did it right and with only a quarter of China; population available for infection

the gripe seems to be that they are
unable to respond to the hysterical demands of desperate,
irresponsible localities whose profligacy and intemperance
sabotaged their own futures.

It's the grasshopper and the ant.

Sadly, you are the grasshopper.

Pontificating about the virtues of system which is clearly failing to deliver effective control of an infectious disease demonstrates a different kind of moral defect, which is perhaps even more lethal.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 12:35:28 PM UTC+11, jla...@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:25:06 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference.. But I think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some with market forces being dominate.

It's nice to have some countries with big government and some with
market forces because that way the countries with big governments
can still have vaccines, medicines, technology, etc.

But it's always weird to me, in the very middle of a demonstration
of the limitations of centralizing government, to see bigger,
more centralized government being advocated as the solution.

If that's the solution, then why shouldn't all European nations'
health care be centrally coordinated in India (they have a big
government). Or Rome? Or Washington D.C. I mean, why not? For
'efficiency,' right?

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.

Companies compete.
Governments don't compete.

But in countries with multiparty democracy, administrations compete for popularity with the voters.

The US doesn't have votes of confidence, so it can't chuck out a defedctive administrations as soon as they screw up big-time one of a number of the features of the US constitution that no subsequent constitution has copied (whic makes it a bug rather than a feature).

Companies have to make a profit.
Governments don't have to make a profit.

But they do have to get re-elected.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[dcaster@krl.org]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:00:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

Dan is even dimmer than James Arthur. Europe and Australia both have free market economies - somewhat better regulated than the US equivalent - and universal health care, and they also have companies working of delivering vaccines and ventilators.

--
Bill Sloman

_I may be dimmer than James Authur , but I am still way brighter than you.

I am well aware of Europe and and Australia. I have been to both places.

Dan

 

[dcaster@krl.org]

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 11:04:19 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 1:23:31 PM UTC+11, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:00:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

Dan is even dimmer than James Arthur. Europe and Australia both have free market economies - somewhat better regulated than the US equivalent - and universal health care, and they also have companies working of delivering vaccines and ventilators.

_I may be dimmer than James Authur , but I am still way brighter than you.

And dim enough to think that is is worth making the assertion. Do list your patents and the paper you have got published in the peer-reviewed literature.

I am well aware of Europe and and Australia. I have been to both places.

How impressive. I worked for 22 years in the UK and lived in the Netherlands for 19 years, and worked there for some of that time - the Dutch don't like hiring people who are over 45, and I was 51 when I got there. I did manage to learn to speak fluent Dutch (which wrecked my German). My written Dutch is vile, but nobody wanted me to write Dutch - neither Russian graduate students nor overseas associated companies could read it, while they could all read English.

I got my Ph.D. in Australia and worked there for about a year and a half, in job which had me visiting US ECOM at Fort Monmouth at New Jersey, as well as labs in the UK.

You really haven't been paying attention, have you.

I do not pay much attention to you.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

Still have a higher -IQ, and more money than you.

Dan

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 1:23:31 PM UTC+11, dca...@krl.org wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:00:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

Dan is even dimmer than James Arthur. Europe and Australia both have free market economies - somewhat better regulated than the US equivalent - and universal health care, and they also have companies working of delivering vaccines and ventilators.

_I may be dimmer than James Authur , but I am still way brighter than you.

And dim enough to think that is is worth making the assertion. Do list your patents and the paper you have got published in the peer-reviewed literature.

> I am well aware of Europe and and Australia. I have been to both places.

How impressive. I worked for 22 years in the UK and lived in the Netherlands for 19 years, and worked there for some of that time - the Dutch don't like hiring people who are over 45, and I was 51 when I got there. I did manage to learn to speak fluent Dutch (which wrecked my German). My written Dutch is vile, but nobody wanted me to write Dutch - neither Russian graduate students nor overseas associated companies could read it, while they could all read English.

I got my Ph.D. in Australia and worked there for about a year and a half, in job which had me visiting US ECOM at Fort Monmouth at New Jersey, as well as labs in the UK.

You really haven't been paying attention, have you.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 2:16:27 PM UTC+11, dca...@krl.org wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 11:04:19 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 1:23:31 PM UTC+11, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:00:23 PM UTC-4, Bill Sloman wrote:

Dan is even dimmer than James Arthur. Europe and Australia both have free market economies - somewhat better regulated than the US equivalent - and universal health care, and they also have companies working of delivering vaccines and ventilators.

_I may be dimmer than James Authur , but I am still way brighter than you.

And dim enough to think that is is worth making the assertion. Do list your patents and the paper you have got published in the peer-reviewed literature.

I am well aware of Europe and and Australia. I have been to both places.

How impressive. I worked for 22 years in the UK and lived in the Netherlands for 19 years, and worked there for some of that time - the Dutch don't like hiring people who are over 45, and I was 51 when I got there. I did manage to learn to speak fluent Dutch (which wrecked my German). My written Dutch is vile, but nobody wanted me to write Dutch - neither Russian graduate students nor overseas associated companies could read it, while they could all read English.

I got my Ph.D. in Australia and worked there for about a year and a half, in job which had me visiting US ECOM at Fort Monmouth at New Jersey, as well as labs in the UK.

You really haven't been paying attention, have you.


I do not pay much attention to you.

You posted this response twelve minutes after I'd put up the comment you are reacting to.

> Still have a higher -IQ, and more money than you.

Still posting that claim, despite the fact that you have zero evidence to support any of it.

I'm prepared to concede that you once might have scored higher on a IQ test, than I have, but that's mainly because of the Mensa effect, Mensa being an organisation that exists to allow you to glory in scoring high on an IQ test, even if there's no other evidence (like patents or papers published in the peer-reviewed literature) that suggests any practical intelligence.

I'm prepared to accept that Clive Sinclair is intelligent, even though "he is a member of British Mensa and was chairman for 17 years from 1980 to 1997".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Sinclair

but you couldn't work on electronics in Cambridge with getting to hear a raft of stories about how he'd managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory in a whole variety of very silly ways.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 01/04/20 02:35, jlarkin@highlandsniptechnology.com wrote:

On Wed, 1 Apr 2020 00:25:06 +0100, Tom Gardner
spamjunk@blueyonder.co.uk> wrote:

On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference. But I think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some with market forces being dominate.

It's nice to have some countries with big government and some with
market forces because that way the countries with big governments
can still have vaccines, medicines, technology, etc.

But it's always weird to me, in the very middle of a demonstration
of the limitations of centralizing government, to see bigger,
more centralized government being advocated as the solution.

If that's the solution, then why shouldn't all European nations'
health care be centrally coordinated in India (they have a big
government). Or Rome? Or Washington D.C. I mean, why not? For
'efficiency,' right?

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.

Companies compete.
Governments don't compete.

So what, and wrong anyway.

Governments compete for votes.

Companies have to make a profit.
Governments don't have to make a profit.

Ah. Do you /really/ think profit is the most
important thing?

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 01/04/20 01:03, Rick C wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

The thrust of the article is that Covidien prevented
another company from providing cheap and plentiful
supplies of ventilators. That's perfectly sensible
from a market forces PoV, and is legal.

Yup, legal. Doesn't mean we can't sanction them by not buying from them as I clearly said

Now how many Covidien products do you expect
individuals to buy?

If close to zero then individuals cannot sanction
Covidien - and your point is meaningless in practice.

N.B. You have chosen to snip the context, which is that
individuals cannot remove companies (e.g. Covidien)
but individuals can remove governments. Hence big
government is likely to be able to do a better job
of protecting individuals than market forces.

The American public will pay the penalty for those
market forces.

Not just us. Their products would have helped the world.

Yup. Market forces have indirectly harmed many
individuals.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 01/04/20 05:30, Bill Sloman wrote:

I'm prepared to accept that Clive Sinclair is intelligent, even though "he is
a member of British Mensa and was chairman for 17 years from 1980 to 1997".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clive_Sinclair

but you couldn't work on electronics in Cambridge with getting to hear a raft
of stories about how he'd managed to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory
in a whole variety of very silly ways.

You didn't even need to work in Cambridge to have that
impression!

He had a very shaky reputation from the early 70s
onwards; even as a schoolkid I was aware of that from
reading the electronics magazines.

 

[Tom Gardner]

On 01/04/20 01:56, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:

On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:25:14 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 22:36, dagmargoodboat@yahoo.com wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:50:19 PM UTC-4, dca...@krl.org wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 2:05:26 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 31/03/20 17:29, Flyguy wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 4:41:27 AM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Monday, March 30, 2020 at 5:50:20 PM UTC+11, Flyguy wrote:
On Saturday, March 28, 2020 at 8:20:06 PM UTC-7, Bill Sloman wrote:
On Sunday, March 29, 2020 at 11:46:27 AM UTC+11, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 28/03/20 20:17, Martin Brown wrote:
These are quite an interesting and worrying set of graphs - scroll
down to "world" to see the comparison of USA with Japan and Italy:

http://nrg.cs.ucl.ac.uk/mjh/covid19/#wn

Thanks for those graphs; I've been waiting for somebody with the raw
data to plot them.

Recommended.

https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/

has been plotting the data for several weeks now. They were the first
website I found that did it, and when I got jeered at for taking them
seriously I did point out that that they did say where they got their
data from, but that my main reason for using them was the fact that
they did post graphs.

GIGO. Remember that? If not, it stands for "Garbage In, Garbage Out." And
the fucking Chinese comms are feeding us GARBAGE!

Flyguy doesn't realise that his claims about the reliability of the data
the Chineses are sending out are based solely on his moronic
misconceptions, which makes him the obvious garbage emitter around here.

-- Bill Sloman, Sydney

Hardly. You are the moron who sucks up to the Chicomms. And I know why:
Australia's NUMBER ONE trading partner is China. I've seen that attitude
here: our NBA was also sucking up to the Chicomms because they do a huge
business there, and muzzled an owner at the Chicomm's insistence when he
criticized them. Now, they are stopping shipments of medical supplies to the
US. When you lie down with snakes don't be surprised when you are bitten.


At least the Chinese are dealing with the problem
better than the USA is.

Your rants are what I would expect from a neocon that
is correctly afraid that their philosophy is about to
become very unpopular. Unless there is a big smokescreen
people will eventually realise that big government will
do a better job of protecting them than market forces.

Why? Because politicians can be removed by individuals,
unlike companies.

I do not rant very often as it never seems to make any difference. But I think that it is good to have some countries with big government and some with market forces being dominate.

It's nice to have some countries with big government and some with
market forces because that way the countries with big governments
can still have vaccines, medicines, technology, etc.

But it's always weird to me, in the very middle of a demonstration
of the limitations of centralizing government, to see bigger,
more centralized government being advocated as the solution.

If that's the solution, then why shouldn't all European nations'
health care be centrally coordinated in India (they have a big
government). Or Rome? Or Washington D.C. I mean, why not? For
'efficiency,' right?

Companies are run by people.
Governments are run by people.
Both are less than perfect because people are less than perfect.

I know which people I can help cause to be removed and replaced,
and which people are unaccountable to me and outside my control.

You cannot cause bureaucrats to be removed and replaced; they are
unaccountable to you and outside your control. In the present
circumstance, those are the people responsible for a critical
shortage of ventilators in New York, those are the people who erred
fielding tests, and their punishment, in the end, will be to get
more resources.

Bureaucrats are not the government.

Bureaucrats set up the good and prescient deal to
buy lots of ventilators.

Covidien unilaterally reneged on the deal.

I see every evidence that markets and free enterprise have (and
are) performing magnificently; the gripe seems to be that they are
unable to respond to the hysterical demands of desperate,
irresponsible localities whose profligacy and intemperance
sabotaged their own futures.

Ah yes, the companies that quietly created the problem
are shouting about solving the problem (at great profit
to themselves).

They are like an arsonist that grabs a fire hose and
shouts about putting the fire out.

 

[Rick C]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 5:06:29 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

On 01/04/20 01:03, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

The thrust of the article is that Covidien prevented
another company from providing cheap and plentiful
supplies of ventilators. That's perfectly sensible
from a market forces PoV, and is legal.

Yup, legal. Doesn't mean we can't sanction them by not buying from them as I clearly said
Now how many Covidien products do you expect
individuals to buy?

If close to zero then individuals cannot sanction
Covidien - and your point is meaningless in practice.

N.B. You have chosen to snip the context, which is that
individuals cannot remove companies (e.g. Covidien)
but individuals can remove governments. Hence big
government is likely to be able to do a better job
of protecting individuals than market forces.


The American public will pay the penalty for those
market forces.

Not just us. Their products would have helped the world.

Yup. Market forces have indirectly harmed many
individuals.

Ok, you just aren't going to understand anything I say. I give up.

--

Rick C.

-+-+ Get 1,000 miles of free Supercharging
-+-+ Tesla referral code - https://ts.la/richard11209

 

[Bill Sloman]

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 8:49:30 PM UTC+11, Rick C wrote:

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 at 5:06:29 AM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:
On 01/04/20 01:03, Rick C wrote:
On Tuesday, March 31, 2020 at 7:19:16 PM UTC-4, Tom Gardner wrote:

<snip>

The American public will pay the penalty for those
market forces.

Not just us. Their products would have helped the world.

Yup. Market forces have indirectly harmed many
individuals.

Ok, you just aren't going to understand anything I say. I give up.

Oh, good. We do understand what you are trying to say, but we aren't going to show you up by explaining the defects in your reasoning. Isn't that kind of us?

--
Bill Sloman< Sydney