Audio Precision System One Dual Domani Measuirement Systems

[Michael A. Terrell]

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:42:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

Er - how do you do that in the US? You don't have ring mains, so you
don't have two wires.

Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <PtOdnePPk_tYEbHSnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
I've never quite understood why so many US towns seem to have overhead
wiring for mains. It's very unsightly.

Some towns are built on so much rock that you need explosives to dig a
trench. You had to get a blasting permit to set a pole in Cincinnati.
All those poles were tagged. RIP. (Replace In Place.)

That is the only reason?

Isn't it enough in those places? New subdivisions are bulldozed, and
if necessary, they use explosives to break up big rocks so they can be
removed. You can't do that in existing neighborhoods without blowing
out windows and sometimes closing busy roads for days. A lot of the
above ground service areas were wired after the homes were built, and
early poles were set with a pickax or jackhammer to chip away the
rocks. The actual city of Cincinnati is built on 'seven hills', of
mostly glacier droppings from a long gone ice age. A lot of the suburbs
are of similar conditions.

The RIP process is simple: You cut the old pole near the ground and
drag it off the base. You winch it out of the hole, and set the new
pole in the existing hole. Then transfer the wires to the new pole.
This can be done without closing most roads. Have you ever worked in
utilities or even CATV construction? It doesn't look that way from
here.

If you don't like the way overhead cables look, just stop staring at
the sky.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <PtOdneLPk_u7ELHSnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.

Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?

Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

<http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg>


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 01:11, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike Tomlinson<mike@jasper.org.uk
wrote in Message id:<MHebmdBaLTKPFwHs@jasper.org.uk>:

In article<nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyjda42.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice<allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/ElectricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


It all looks a bit new, maybe the installation isn't finished yet?

How was he able to take the picture, if the building wasn't open to
the public?


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:12:02 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:42:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

Er - how do you do that in the US? You don't have ring mains, so you
don't have two wires.


Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

That is adding a second circuit to a breaker - nothing to do with
putting the two ends of a single ring main into the same breaker
terminal. Obviously it would be illegal, but it isn't what we were
talking about.

So yes, I do think before posting. I thought you were stating that
putting two wire ends into one terminal was illegal. It isn't. Try
being a little clearer next time, will you?

d

 

[Terry Casey]

In article <PtOdnefPk_unF7HSnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
mike.terrell@earthlink.net says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling

--

Terry

 

[Don Pearce]

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:56:00 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <q8mdnc0vItyW3bDSnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

d

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 09:12:02 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


Don Pearce wrote:

On Fri, 03 Feb 2012 20:42:56 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

No, you poke both wires into the same terminal hole.


Not legal in the US but you do find were some Bozo does it, after the
inspection.

Er - how do you do that in the US? You don't have ring mains, so you
don't have two wires.


Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

That is adding a second circuit to a breaker - nothing to do with
putting the two ends of a single ring main into the same breaker
terminal. Obviously it would be illegal, but it isn't what we were
talking about.

So yes, I do think before posting. I thought you were stating that
putting two wire ends into one terminal was illegal. It isn't. Try
being a little clearer next time, will you?

Maybe not where you are, but it illegal in the US as I've explained in
another post.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <DICdnZ7PiPMkobDSnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

What is wrong with having two circuits on the one breaker - provided the
breaker is correctly sized for the cable? In practice it's no different
from daisy chaining sockets.

That's your opinion, but the US NEC and insurance companies forbid
it. Two wires under one screw reduce the pressure by half if they are
in parallel. If the cross, they will deform and break.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <q8mdnc0vItyW3bDSnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?

Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.

The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

Then it's a damn good thing you don't do electrical work in the US,
isn't it? What you can't see is that there are grooved slots in the
terminal that grip the wire, when the screw is tightened. 'Crimps' are
illegal, without certified tools with current inspection tags & proper
training. They are used in the few places with aluminum wire, to crip a
copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire, and every part of the process is
tightly controlled. Either hire the right work, or rewire the building
with copper.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Ron]

On 04/02/2012 14:27, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 01:11, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike Tomlinson<mike@jasper.org.uk
wrote in Message id:<MHebmdBaLTKPFwHs@jasper.org.uk>:

In article<nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyjda42.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice<allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/ElectricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


It all looks a bit new, maybe the installation isn't finished yet?


How was he able to take the picture, if the building wasn't open to
the public?

I didn't say the hotel wasn't open to the public, it might have been
open for a century or more. I did say that it -i.e. dis boxes and cables
- looked fairly new. and that`s not a cable tray at the top, it looks
like two strips of plywood. I imagine that there should/will be some
kind of box around it.
That's probably the dis-board for the whole floor. I'm sure that it
should be safely under lock and key if it's in a public room

Who knows...

R

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Terry Casey wrote:

In article <PtOdnefPk_unF7HSnZ2dnUVZ_oydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
mike.terrell@earthlink.net says...

Dave Liquorice wrote:


(*) As in bread, not sure what a "toaster oven" is.


A small, counter top electric oven that runs on a 20A 120V circuit.
They are quite common to cook small meals, or for additional capacity
for a large meal where you need multiple temperatures.

Sounds similar to what we call a 'Baby Belling':

http://www.belling.co.uk/baby-belling

Somewhat, but this is a typical example, with a warming tray on top.
The tray uses the waste heat from the oven.

<http://homeappliances.files.wordpress.com/2006/12/convection-toaster-oven.jpg>

A lot are just a small oven with temperature and timer controls.
There are also counter top pizza ovens.
--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Don Pearce wrote:

On Sat, 04 Feb 2012 14:56:00 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <q8mdnc0vItyW3bDSnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?


Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.


The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them. There are millions of homes
and businesses using them 24/7 and you rarely have a problem unless
someone smashes one, or uses a damaged plug in one. The earlier type
had a shroud where the wire couldn't 'spew'. the screw had a grove
under the head to lull the wire tighter as it compressed the wire and
held a lot tighter than any crimp terminal.

The newer style has a groove with serration that goes through a hole
and is clamped between the screw head and the terminal. You strip 1/2"
insulation, shove it in till it bottoms out and tighten the screw. They
will not come loose, unless a total fool installs it.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 14:27, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Ron wrote:

On 04/02/2012 01:11, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Andy Champ wrote:

On 01/02/2012 14:10, JW wrote:
On Wed, 1 Feb 2012 12:40:58 +0000 Mike Tomlinson<mike@jasper.org.uk
wrote in Message id:<MHebmdBaLTKPFwHs@jasper.org.uk>:

In article<nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.lyjda42.pminews@srv1.howhill.co.uk>, Dave
Liquorice<allsortsnotthisbit@howhill.co.uk> writes


Just counted up how many double 13A sockets we've just put into the
refurbished *half* of this place: 38. That makes for one helluva fuse
board if each was a radial...

Seen American consumer units? Huge, ugly things, bit like the Americans
themselves

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/1e/ElectricalPanel.jpg

Yeah, but we're smart enough to not put them in our living room.

Seen in a hotel room in Scotland:

http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l17/Number774/MeterWardrobe.jpg


That would fail inspection in the US, because the wiring trough at
the top is missing its cover.


It all looks a bit new, maybe the installation isn't finished yet?


How was he able to take the picture, if the building wasn't open to
the public?



I didn't say the hotel wasn't open to the public, it might have been
open for a century or more. I did say that it -i.e. dis boxes and cables
- looked fairly new. and that`s not a cable tray at the top, it looks
like two strips of plywood. I imagine that there should/will be some
kind of box around it.
That's probably the dis-board for the whole floor. I'm sure that it
should be safely under lock and key if it's in a public room

My point was that the lights were on. That isn't the case, prior to
inspection and getting a Certificate of Ocupancy in the US. If a US
building needed a major rewire like that it would be close until the
work was complete, and had all the paperwork is in order.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <DICdnZ7PiPMkobDSnZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Do you ever think, before posting? Someone adds another circuit, and
is too cheap to buy another breaker. Or the box is full, and they won't
upgrade.

What is wrong with having two circuits on the one breaker - provided the
breaker is correctly sized for the cable? In practice it's no different
from daisy chaining sockets.

--
*The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <q8mdnc0vItyW3bDSnZ2dnUVZ_uydnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

How are sockets connected on a radial circuit? Separate terminals for in
and out?

Yes. How else would they do it, if you can't use two wires under one
screw?

<http://www.homedepot.com/catalog/productImages/400/b9/b947022d-7720-42fd-97e2-af3be83c2250_400.jpg>

Looks like the sort of thing you'd see in the UK from before WW2. From the
cheapest of makers.

The green screw on the lower left is for the 'Ground' connection. The
silver colored screws on the left side are 'Neutral', and the brass
colored screws on the right side are 'Line'.

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in use.
It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first crimp on a
suitable terminal.

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <JqCdnY-3EfUj0LDSnZ2dnUVZ_hadnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in
use. It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first
crimp on a suitable terminal.

Then it's a damn good thing you don't do electrical work in the US,
isn't it?

It is. I'd not be able to warrant my work with bodges like that.

What you can't see is that there are grooved slots in the
terminal that grip the wire, when the screw is tightened.

Makes little difference. The *only* reason to use that sort of connection
is cost - and that fitting certainly looks cheap.

'Crimps' are
illegal, without certified tools with current inspection tags & proper
training.

Goes without saying that any crimp must be made with the correct tool. But
of course an additional connection is a bad thing except where essential.
And I'd say it was essential with those fittings.

They are used in the few places with aluminum wire, to crip a
copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire, and every part of the process is
tightly controlled. Either hire the right work, or rewire the building
with copper.

Aluminium cable was tried here briefly many years ago - but I've never
come across it. Only used by those who put money before safety and
longevity.

--
*Procrastinate now

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Dave Plowman (News)]

In article <xM-dnXjDLLugzbDSnZ2dnUVZ_oGdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

Jesus, those terminals are a fire waiting to happen. They don't grip
wires - all that happens when you tighten them is that the wire gets
spewed out the sides. If you are lucky a tiny bit of it may still be
under the screw head.

Sigh. Such arrogant ignorance. You've never seen one, or used on,
but all you can do is find fault with them.

Oh, but *I* have. Did some work on an American Optical installation that
used these some time ago - and just assumed the design had been changed
for something better by now.

--
*Those who live by the sword get shot by those who don't*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.

 

[Geoffrey S. Mendelson]

Arny Krueger wrote:

When these places were wired (1910-1935), underground wiring was
prohibitively expensive. Underground became the rule in the 70's.

In those days having electricty was a big deal. It showed you were prosperous
and could afford the price of wiring, the cost of the things to run and the
cost of running them.

As part of the plan to recover from "the great depression", the US built
several large hydroelectric generating stations (and impressive dams to
provide the water), ran lots of lines and "electrified" most of rural
America (USA).

Pictures of the 1939 World's Fair GE pavlilion:

<http://books.google.co.il/books?id=JKH-lgYU2dMC&pg=PA58&lpg=PA58&dq=1939+worlds+fair+ge+mural&source=bl&ots=shpbj0aaCU&sig=RUEjwfTbkVBdpVt8N3gkYRS1ppI&hl=en&sa=X&ei=02stT5qiCaKq0QW5sOSsCA&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q&f=false>

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson, N3OWJ/4X1GM
My high blood pressure medicine reduces my midichlorian count. :-(

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <JqCdnY-3EfUj0LDSnZ2dnUVZ_hadnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
I wouldn't have believed that sort of screw connection was still in
use. It's a dreadful way of making a connection. Unless you first
crimp on a suitable terminal.

Then it's a damn good thing you don't do electrical work in the US,
isn't it?

It is. I'd not be able to warrant my work with bodges like that.

What you can't see is that there are grooved slots in the
terminal that grip the wire, when the screw is tightened.

Makes little difference. The *only* reason to use that sort of connection
is cost - and that fitting certainly looks cheap.

'Crimps' are
illegal, without certified tools with current inspection tags & proper
training.

Goes without saying that any crimp must be made with the correct tool. But
of course an additional connection is a bad thing except where essential.
And I'd say it was essential with those fittings.

They are used in the few places with aluminum wire, to crip a
copper pigtail onto the aluminum wire, and every part of the process is
tightly controlled. Either hire the right work, or rewire the building
with copper.

Aluminium cable was tried here briefly many years ago - but I've never
come across it. Only used by those who put money before safety and
longevity.

No one can say you aren't opinionated. Or right.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense.