Analog use of CMOS logic chips

[James Meyer]

On 14 Nov 2004 17:35:38 GMT, chrisgibbogibson@aol.com (ChrisGibboGibson) wroth:

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

I doubt that Bloggs is his real name. I suspect, but can't prove,
that Fred is the reincarnation of the infamous Robert. I'm trying to
recall Robert's (real) last name right now. I ran a trace on him a
number of years ago.


Well I'm not one for gossip but I'm pretty sure Fred actually gave quite a
strong hint to his identity in a post a within the last 2 months. In fact I
think he actually wrote his real name. Unless I misunderstood him.

Gibbo

Yeah, right. I'm going to pull up and read every post Fred made in the
last 2 months just to find his real name. I think not!

Jim "the other one" Meyer

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

This thread is making me weep.....

My partner and I (note correct Queen's English) had a chain of shops selling
components etc, specialising in hobbyist equipment, single resistors and
capacitors, surplus test equipment etc.

As the hobby died, so did our business. When we finally admitted defeat and
closed the places down, we threw out *four* skiploads (US readers may not know
the word "skip") of old data books. We'd had them in the shops, on sale for 10
pence each (about 15 cents) or free to anyone who wanted one who made a
purchase over 50 pence (75 cents). We had them for about 10 years. I don't
think anyone ever bought one.

Gibbo

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

Joerg wrote:

 

[ChrisGibboGibson]

Joerg wrote:

[snip]

(a skip holds about 1/8th a garage load of of crap)

(and they're not condensors, they're capacitators)

So how much is one skipload? Anyway, Friday I visited a local
electronics shop and they had a large shelf of old data books for
reference. I politely asked whether it would be remotely possible to
consider selling me one. My sights were on an old RCA CMOS data book.
Nope. No way.

This is odd. We literally throw them away by the truck load. Perhaps they send
more here than we can possibly ever use.

When I last cleared out the workshop I threw out about 10 each of the old RCA
CMOS databooks. Didn't bother checking years, versions etc, just threw them
out. If I need one in particular I'll just call a mate up who I know hasn't got
round to throwing all his out.

Gibbo

 

[Joerg]

Hi Product developer,

I didn't get the details as what might have been in the cart. Could
have been an equally stupid friend. The locking wheel is located in
the front of the cart and has a very high quality molded rubber tread.
The cart probably weighs 80 to 90 lbs. With that much mass coming to a
halt at say 20 MPH I would think it could cause a rapid deceleration
of the bike and eject the rider. Too lazy to do the math but it sounds
possible.

At that speed an abrupt hard braking of only one wheel is likely to make
the cart unstable and it can roll over. That alone should make such a
tow ride very unpleasant.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hi Jim,

Things is, although analog CMOS usage does not look like a great
topology it does at times beat any other solution in terms of cost.


Virtually ALL of my new analog designs are CMOS (BiCMOS, SiGe, if I
need to get above 500MHz).

Sorry, I meant CMOS logic, not CMOS in general which is of course the
process of choice these days. The few ICs I was involved in were also
all CMOS.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[john jardine]

"ChrisGibboGibson" <chrisgibbogibson@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20041114182732.21925.00000657@mb-m06.aol.com...

Joerg wrote:

[snip]

(a skip holds about 1/8th a garage load of of crap)

(and they're not condensors, they're capacitators)

So how much is one skipload? Anyway, Friday I visited a local
electronics shop and they had a large shelf of old data books for
reference. I politely asked whether it would be remotely possible to
consider selling me one. My sights were on an old RCA CMOS data book.
Nope. No way.


This is odd. We literally throw them away by the truck load. Perhaps they
send
more here than we can possibly ever use.

When I last cleared out the workshop I threw out about 10 each of the old
RCA
CMOS databooks. Didn't bother checking years, versions etc, just threw
them
out. If I need one in particular I'll just call a mate up who I know
hasn't got
round to throwing all his out.

Gibbo

The stuff's "technical" so in UK it may as well be in double Dutch. Got a
1938 Terman for a quid last month. Local bookseller now hangs onto odd
'technical' stuff hoping for the odd quid off me rather than it normal fate
of the skip.
Bit surprised at the Ł38 for your Ladybird. The sellers must -really- know
that particular market.
regards
john

 

[Rich The Philosophizer]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 01:22:57 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hi Jim,

Yes, that always makes me drool. But even a shared run costs as much as
a nicely equipped used car.


Doesn't cost me a dime ;-)



Can you sometimes hitch a ride on a prototype run from your designs?

Totally different topic: Do you see a trend in chip design to farm some
of that work out to India, as it is seen with SW and digital ASIC
projects? IOW, if one of your grandkids would ask you whether it is a
safe career move to go into chip design what would you say?

If you're a Republican, you tell them, "Follow the Money."
If you're a Democrat, you tell them, "Follow your Heart."

If you're me, you say, "Go wherever the tickling of your fancy leads
you. ;-)"

;^j
Rich

 

[Rich Grise]

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:03:42 -0800, Product developer wrote:

Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.13.17.48.09.350513@example.net>...
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:06:56 -0800, Product developer wrote:

Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message news:<1a02pavsuqgp0.dlg@news.individual.net>...
On 12 Nov 2004 08:55:17 -0800, Product developer wrote:



We have seen wheels come back with bullets fired into them!

I wonder if google knows how much CATV company plant has been shot
up in the US.

I have
tons of press footage and my own showing people getting to the
perimeter of a parking lot and having their cart all of a sudden come
to a halt. Their reactions are usually always entertaining. Many will
think there was a malfunction and continue to transfer their goods to
one cart after another until they see a pattern develop! "Gee four
carts all cease to roll at this driveway. There must be a reason"
Duhhhhh.

We used to have "Candid Camera" on TV. This shopping cart scenario
is reminiscent of that show. There's now a variation on that old
show.

The best story we heard from a store manager was about the guy who
thought if he could just get through the perimeter field fast enough
he could violate the system. This guy tied a rope from around the seat
post of his bike to the cart.

As you can imagine the rider peddles and peddles getting up to a good
speed and as he and eventually the cart in tow, traverses the ELF
field the cart comes to a hard stop and the rider took flight over the
handle bars.

I would have flown out there to the store with my DV Cam in hand if I
had known in advance. You just can't buy this kind of product testing!

Did the guy have a thousand pounds of groceries in the cart or something?
What could stop a grocery cart that decisively, except some kind of
hook?

I didn't get the details as what might have been in the cart. Could
have been an equally stupid friend. The locking wheel is located in
the front of the cart and has a very high quality molded rubber tread.
The cart probably weighs 80 to 90 lbs. With that much mass coming to a
halt at say 20 MPH I would think it could cause a rapid deceleration
of the bike and eject the rider. Too lazy to do the math but it sounds
possible.

When you put it this way, it does make a lot of sense. I guess even

I would have to admit that I've taken a bike spill with less provocation
than a whole grocery cart being snatched out from under me.

So, what it boils down to, is the skill of the original relator of
the anecdote, to really evoke the "Yow! That must have hurt!"
response. ;-)

Thanks!
Rich

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 01:43:45 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 19:03:42 -0800, Product developer wrote:

Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.11.13.17.48.09.350513@example.net>...
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 09:06:56 -0800, Product developer wrote:

Active8 <reply2group@ndbbm.net> wrote in message news:<1a02pavsuqgp0.dlg@news.individual.net>...
On 12 Nov 2004 08:55:17 -0800, Product developer wrote:



We have seen wheels come back with bullets fired into them!

I wonder if google knows how much CATV company plant has been shot
up in the US.

I have
tons of press footage and my own showing people getting to the
perimeter of a parking lot and having their cart all of a sudden come
to a halt. Their reactions are usually always entertaining. Many will
think there was a malfunction and continue to transfer their goods to
one cart after another until they see a pattern develop! "Gee four
carts all cease to roll at this driveway. There must be a reason"
Duhhhhh.

We used to have "Candid Camera" on TV. This shopping cart scenario
is reminiscent of that show. There's now a variation on that old
show.

The best story we heard from a store manager was about the guy who
thought if he could just get through the perimeter field fast enough
he could violate the system. This guy tied a rope from around the seat
post of his bike to the cart.

As you can imagine the rider peddles and peddles getting up to a good
speed and as he and eventually the cart in tow, traverses the ELF
field the cart comes to a hard stop and the rider took flight over the
handle bars.

I would have flown out there to the store with my DV Cam in hand if I
had known in advance. You just can't buy this kind of product testing!

Did the guy have a thousand pounds of groceries in the cart or something?
What could stop a grocery cart that decisively, except some kind of
hook?

I didn't get the details as what might have been in the cart. Could
have been an equally stupid friend. The locking wheel is located in
the front of the cart and has a very high quality molded rubber tread.
The cart probably weighs 80 to 90 lbs. With that much mass coming to a
halt at say 20 MPH I would think it could cause a rapid deceleration
of the bike and eject the rider. Too lazy to do the math but it sounds
possible.

When you put it this way, it does make a lot of sense. I guess even
I would have to admit that I've taken a bike spill with less provocation
than a whole grocery cart being snatched out from under me.

So, what it boils down to, is the skill of the original relator of
the anecdote, to really evoke the "Yow! That must have hurt!"
response. ;-)

Thanks!
Rich

"Yow! That must have hurt!" my ass. That's an "Awwww shiiiiit" ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Active8]

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 19:43:18 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Mon, 15 Nov 2004 01:22:57 GMT, Joerg


Totally different topic: Do you see a trend in chip design to farm some
of that work out to India, as it is seen with SW and digital ASIC
projects? IOW, if one of your grandkids would ask you whether it is a
safe career move to go into chip design what would you say?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Become a lawya ;-)

...Jim Thompson

What if de wunna do electronix?

--
Best Regards,
Mike

 

[Tim Shoppa]

jdurban@vorel.com (Product developer) wrote in message news:<118afaeb.0411130906.252f37fb@posting.google.com>...

The best story we heard from a store manager was about the guy who
thought if he could just get through the perimeter field fast enough
he could violate the system.

Interesting interpretation. Probably comes from watching the
"force fields" on Star Trek too much. Heck, maybe for a future
iteration of the product maybe you can incorporate some Star Trek-style
sound effects!

This guy tied a rope from around the seat
post of his bike to the cart.

Now that approach sounds more like the Enterprise attempting to
break through the negative energy barrier at the edge of the Universe :-O.

At least he had an audience!

Tim.

 

[Mr. Civility]

Joerg wrote:

Hi Mr. Civility,

Also, the application circuits of Figures 19 through 22 are "Typical
crystal oscillator circuit," "High input impedance amplifier,"
"Typical RC oscillator circuit" and "Input pulse shaping circuit
(Schmitt trigger)." All are analog circuits.



Is that 1978 era data sheet available somewhere on the web? I checked
the RCA purple databook that one of our fellow newsgroup folks suggested
but couldn't find much for analog usage in it.

Dunno. But the figures I mention are just little schematics in the 4069
datasheet, put there as "ticklers" to let you know you can do those
things with it. The crystal oscillator and RC oscillator ones refer to
Application Notes in the back of the book for design details. The other
circuits are obvious.

More 4069 arcania: The 4009 hex inverter came along shortly after the
4007. The 4009 was designed to be an interface chip between DTL/TTL
and CMOS systems, so has two power supplies and devices sized to skew
the input switching voltage low and output low drive current high. But
of course folks used them as general purpose inverters in CMOS systems
'cause they got 6 inverters instead of 3 in the 4007 or 4 using 4001s or
4011s as inverters. But the 4009 was real slow, suffered from latchup
under high output capacitance loads and the dual supplies were pointless
if you were just running pure CMOS. So the 4049 was created to correct
some of the problems. But to make the 4049 a drop-in replacement for
the 4009, they left it in a 16-pin package and made the second power
supply pin a NC. It still had skewed switching levels to meet the
DTL/TTL interface requirements.

Eventually, when RCA made a major push to flesh out the 4000 series
line, it was decided that a smaller die, 14-pin package (oh so
marginally cheaper than 16), CMOS switching level hex inverter should be
in the line. Thus the 4069 was born.

Hard and fast specifications for aspects of the 4069 (and 4007) that
might be of interest to analog users were deliberately excluded from the
datasheets of these parts in the RCA COS/MOS (digital) manuals. It's
not that the designers weren't aware of them; it's just that there
wasn't (isn't) enough analog usage to warrant the cost of characterizing
them initially or testing them in production or (possibly) having to
tighten up the fabrication process to meet those kind of spec's.

Having said that, at one time RCA marketed a device called the CA3600
transitor array. You'll find it in the RCA *Linear* device databooks of
the 70s, along with characteristics and circuit examples for
linear/analog applications. They were simply 4007s that the linear guys
bought off the digital group and had characterized for a large paying
customer.

More than anyone wanted to know, I'm sure

--
Mr. Civility

 

[Steve Kavanagh]

CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as
amps, signals switches, you name it.

I once built, as a fun project, a simple direct-conversion receiver
for the amateur 7 MHz band in which ALL the active devices were CMOS
digital chips. It worked but was pretty deaf due to the unsuitability
of feeding a low impedance mixer into a high impedance
linear-biased-CMOS audio amp. Eventually I added a common base audio
preamp, a bipolar voltage regulator (should be able to do that with
CMOS & zener !) and a bunch more CMOS chips to make quite a usable CW
transceiver.

Any suggestions on CMOS-digital implementation of the stumbling blocks
I ran across in this project:
(1) a low noise low-input-Z audio amp (I suppose a transformer at the
input would be one option, though definitely not compatible with
Joerg's initial thrust of keeping cost down) ?
(2) a linear RF amplifier (perhaps an 'HCU04 biased off centre would
work without drawing too much current) ? Or, what is the frequency
limit of 4049/4069 in linear mode ?
(3) a voltage regulator ?

Steve

 

[Stefan Heinzmann]

Mr. Civility wrote:

Having said that, at one time RCA marketed a device called the CA3600
transitor array. You'll find it in the RCA *Linear* device databooks of
the 70s, along with characteristics and circuit examples for
linear/analog applications. They were simply 4007s that the linear guys
bought off the digital group and had characterized for a large paying
customer.

Intersting! The CA3600 appears in Intersil's data sheet for the CA3160,
where it is used as a power booster.

--
Cheers
Stefan

 

[Joerg]

Hi Steve,

I once built, as a fun project, a simple direct-conversion receiver
for the amateur 7 MHz band in which ALL the active devices were CMOS
digital chips. It worked but was pretty deaf due to the unsuitability
of feeding a low impedance mixer into a high impedance
linear-biased-CMOS audio amp. Eventually I added a common base audio
preamp, a bipolar voltage regulator (should be able to do that with
CMOS & zener !) and a bunch more CMOS chips to make quite a usable CW
transceiver.

Pretty cool. Maybe you could post a schematic if you still have it, just
for historical value. Could be a scanned sketch.

Any suggestions on CMOS-digital implementation of the stumbling blocks
I ran across in this project:
(1) a low noise low-input-Z audio amp (I suppose a transformer at the
input would be one option, though definitely not compatible with
Joerg's initial thrust of keeping cost down) ?

Maybe with a FET from the CD4007? Some folks don't really consider that
a digital chip but since it's in the CD series data books I guess it
would not ruin the chance of a Guinness book entry.

(2) a linear RF amplifier (perhaps an 'HCU04 biased off centre would
work without drawing too much current) ? Or, what is the frequency
limit of 4049/4069 in linear mode ?

The 74HCU04 is definitely preferrable here since its transition times
are about twice as fast. But I don't think you can get much past 15 MHz.

(3) a voltage regulator ?

If it has to be with CMOS I'd take a CD4007 FET here as well. In case
the desired voltage isn't far from either rail any buffer/inverter
should do.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Stefan Heinzmann]

Steve Kavanagh wrote:

CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as
amps, signals switches, you name it.


I once built, as a fun project, a simple direct-conversion receiver
for the amateur 7 MHz band in which ALL the active devices were CMOS
digital chips. It worked but was pretty deaf due to the unsuitability
of feeding a low impedance mixer into a high impedance
linear-biased-CMOS audio amp. Eventually I added a common base audio
preamp, a bipolar voltage regulator (should be able to do that with
CMOS & zener !) and a bunch more CMOS chips to make quite a usable CW
transceiver.

Any suggestions on CMOS-digital implementation of the stumbling blocks
I ran across in this project:
(1) a low noise low-input-Z audio amp (I suppose a transformer at the
input would be one option, though definitely not compatible with
Joerg's initial thrust of keeping cost down) ?
(2) a linear RF amplifier (perhaps an 'HCU04 biased off centre would
work without drawing too much current) ? Or, what is the frequency
limit of 4049/4069 in linear mode ?
(3) a voltage regulator ?

Philips includes some linear design data in their data sheets for the
unbuffered gates, for example HCU. The exception is the LVC family where
current consumption in the linear range is missing (just where it
would be most interesting).

--
Cheers
Stefan

 

[James Beck]

In article <4198FB7F.3040302@devnull.com>, reply2newsgroup@devnull.com
says...

car in Europe: "There is nothing that can replace lots of cubic inches.
Except more cubic inches."

We motorheads use the phrase :
"There is no replacement for displacement"

 

[Joerg]

Hi Mr. Civility,

Well, it was designed to conform with other 4000 "B" series drive
capabilities for capacitive (CMOS) loads. If you needed to drive
DTL/TTL, you used a 4049. Also, increased drive meant larger
transistors and thus larger dice, which translated into higher cost.
Fractions of pennies in die costs were initially significant in
jelly-bean parts, although ultimately the actual production cost of
small standard parts was/is determined solely by the cost of the
lead-frame, packaging and testing as the capital costs of the fab
lines were/are amortized and yields approached 100 per cent (meaning
wafer-level chip testing was/is no longer required).

It seems that nowadays the price of a chip is closely related to whether
or not there is a true 2nd source. Then popularity plays a role. If they
can sell them by the truck load then it is cheap no matter what the die
size is. But this was certainly different in the 70's and 80's.

Last bit of trivia: I still have half a tube of 4007s fabricated in a
cheap low-voltage CMOS process (five masks, imagine that) that RCA
developed specifically for high-volume low-speed custom consumer
chips, in particular digital watches (of which RCA sold a boat-load).
Sounds like you and others would have fun with these building
low-voltage analog CMOS circuits, but they were never available
commercially.

Oh yes, these would be nice for experiments. But I try to stay away from
anything that looks like a commercial non-starter or doesn't have
multiple sources. That is why I never designed in stuff like DC-DC
converter modules or any of those wonder chips, a.k.a. panacea chips.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

 

[Joerg]

Hi Stefan,

Philips includes some linear design data in their data sheets for the
unbuffered gates, for example HCU. The exception is the LVC family
where current consumption in the linear range is missing (just where
it would be most interesting).

Now if they would just hire somebody who can turn their poor web site
into something more useful. With LVC and other logic you could figure it
out by combining their FET Vgs/Id parameters, provided these are
available with min-max ranges.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com