Analog use of CMOS logic chips

Product developer · Nov 12, 2004

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote in message news:<4ROkd.40753$QJ3.7209@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com>...

Hi Product developer,

I designed a 60 to 70db gain amplifier drawing only 10ua out of the
4007 back when rail to rail micro power and low voltage opamps were
still on the drawing board. It had to detect and amplify an 8 kHz VLF
carrier about a buried loop in a parking lot to lock shopping carts
(trolleys in the UK)at the perimeter. We eventually updated the design
but what a great little part the 4007 is. Millions of units later the
product is deployed all over the world saving retailers tens of
millions in lost trolleys and carts.

Was that 10uA using all three pairs in class A? If you remember, what
was the worst case quiescent current?

Used one stage as a unity gain buffer and the other two in class A. WC
quiescent was around 13uA.

You guys are modern in your shopping cart systems. One store out here in
high-techia did it this way: Mount a plastic or metal pole to each cart
that makes the cart taller than the door. Now everyone had to lug heavy
bags to their cars and I bet these poles knocked a lot of merchandise
off the shelves. Every once in a while somebody forgot and wanted to
cart their purchases to the car. Ka-clang! The door opener module got
the umpteenth whooping.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

This design was rather tricky. I had to design a loop driver that
would be able to drive up to two miles of traffic loop sensor wire
with a low distortion OOK modulated carrier under 9kHz to get around
FCC part 15. I had to send two bytes of data continuously, one site
address byte and a lock / unlock command. To keep harmonics or birdies
appearing above 9 kHz I had to modulate at zero crosses only. Talk
about a low baud rate!

The all in wheel electronics and locking mechanism had to last four
years or 15,000 lock / unlock cycles on one Lithium 3.6 volt photo
battery. Out of the dozen or so prior attempts at stopping cart loss
this one is the only design to survive the market.

We have seen wheels come back with bullets fired into them! I have
tons of press footage and my own showing people getting to the
perimeter of a parking lot and having their cart all of a sudden come
to a halt. Their reactions are usually always entertaining. Many will
think there was a malfunction and continue to transfer their goods to
one cart after another until they see a pattern develop! "Gee four
carts all cease to roll at this driveway. There must be a reason"
Duhhhhh.

Joerg · Nov 12, 2004

Hi Rich,

Thanks! So there is a 2nd hand market for data books. That is great.

And this surprises you because ..... ?

Because it used to be that old databooks ended up in the trash, or best
case in the recycling dumpster. But now that there is EBay and all that...

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · Nov 12, 2004

Hi Product developer,

Used one stage as a unity gain buffer and the other two in class A. WC
quiescent was around 13uA.

That is quite good. I have not found any specs on that for any CMOS
logic family, just typical values but not min-max data.

The all in wheel electronics and locking mechanism had to last four
years or 15,000 lock / unlock cycles on one Lithium 3.6 volt photo
battery. Out of the dozen or so prior attempts at stopping cart loss
this one is the only design to survive the market.

Now that is a challenge. The mechanics must have been at least as
interesting to design as the electronics. After all, you have to even
endure someone sitting on the cart and another pushing it until the
brake smokes out or something breaks out of a tooth lock. Some folks are
really determined. Is this system still sold?

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Nov 12, 2004

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:47:54 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi John,

I had noticed exact copies of some of the old RCA ap-notes while
looking for something else. Most of the battle is remembering who
bought out whom.

Some lines were sold numerous times and then they became unimportant to
the new owners. App notes disappear, some are scanned in so poorly that
you need forensic experience to decipher them, other times their sales
support or whatever they call what's left of that group doesn't have
much of a clue.

Seriously, one app engineer told me why on earth I'd contemplate using
this ancient CD4000 stuff. Take the new series, much smaller he said. So
I told him I needed several gates for under 15 cents and it can't
consume more than 5uA. Total. "Uh-hum" was all he could mumble.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Aren't 74xC... parts dirt cheap? And their smaller feature size means
they consume less power for a given toggle speed.

Might be interesting to post some CD4000 series circuits (operated at
<= 5V) and compare power consumption/performance with modern parts.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

ChrisGibboGibson · Nov 12, 2004

Ralph Barone wrote:

In article <20041111172052.21610.00000558@mb-m12.aol.com>,
chrisgibbogibson@aol.com (ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

The best analogue circuit I ever saw for a 4000 series IC used a 4007 as
follows...

The inverter was biased to linear operation with as little feedback as
possible. This gave a soft clipping (very valvey [tubey] sounding)
distortion
for an electric guitar.

The mosfets were arranged (can't remember exactly how) so that one was in
the
feedback path and could thus reduce the feedback, it's gate driven from the
rectified output, this gave an expansion and very hard clipping.

The other mosfet was used to reduce the gain, its drive signal again from
the
rectified output, and thus give compression.

Various switch options allowed combinations of the three effects.

The circuit worked brilliantly, sounded terrific and used almost no power.

Very inventive

Gibbo

I'd love to see that one posted if you ever come across it again.

So would I !

I've been searching for it and come up with nothing.

If memory serves me right it was in either Everyday Electronics or Practical
Electronics about 20 years ago.

Gibbo

ChrisGibboGibson · Nov 12, 2004

Guy Macon wrote:

Ralph Barone wrote:

chrisgibbogibson@aol.com (ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

The best analogue circuit I ever saw for a 4000 series IC used a 4007 as
follows...

The inverter was biased to linear operation with as little feedback as
possible. This gave a soft clipping (very valvey [tubey] sounding)
distortion
for an electric guitar.

The mosfets were arranged (can't remember exactly how) so that one was in
the
feedback path and could thus reduce the feedback, it's gate driven from
the
rectified output, this gave an expansion and very hard clipping.

The other mosfet was used to reduce the gain, its drive signal again from
the
rectified output, and thus give compression.

Various switch options allowed combinations of the three effects.

The circuit worked brilliantly, sounded terrific and used almost no power.

Very inventive

I'd love to see that one posted if you ever come across it again.

That sounds a lot like the Craig Anderton Tube Sound Fuzz from
_Electronic Projects for Musicians_.
See [ http://www.geocities.com/j4_student/tsf.gif ].

Well as far as the amp goes, yes. But the other circuit also has compresseion
and expansion.

Gibbo

Active8 · Nov 12, 2004

On 12 Nov 2004 08:55:17 -0800, Product developer wrote:

We have seen wheels come back with bullets fired into them!

I wonder if google knows how much CATV company plant has been shot
up in the US.

I have
tons of press footage and my own showing people getting to the
perimeter of a parking lot and having their cart all of a sudden come
to a halt. Their reactions are usually always entertaining. Many will
think there was a malfunction and continue to transfer their goods to
one cart after another until they see a pattern develop! "Gee four
carts all cease to roll at this driveway. There must be a reason"
Duhhhhh.

We used to have "Candid Camera" on TV. This shopping cart scenario
is reminiscent of that show. There's now a variation on that old
show.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

Jim Thompson · Nov 12, 2004

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 14:46:46 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
<speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 12:11:54 -0700, the renowned Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Fri, 12 Nov 2004 18:47:54 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hi John,

I had noticed exact copies of some of the old RCA ap-notes while
looking for something else. Most of the battle is remembering who
bought out whom.

Some lines were sold numerous times and then they became unimportant to
the new owners. App notes disappear, some are scanned in so poorly that
you need forensic experience to decipher them, other times their sales
support or whatever they call what's left of that group doesn't have
much of a clue.

Seriously, one app engineer told me why on earth I'd contemplate using
this ancient CD4000 stuff. Take the new series, much smaller he said. So
I told him I needed several gates for under 15 cents and it can't
consume more than 5uA. Total. "Uh-hum" was all he could mumble.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Aren't 74xC... parts dirt cheap? And their smaller feature size means
they consume less power for a given toggle speed.

Might be interesting to post some CD4000 series circuits (operated at
= 5V) and compare power consumption/performance with modern parts.

...Jim Thompson

One I happen to have open in front of me here is the TI HC138, maximum
Icc over temperature @6V is 80uA (-40~85°C). National's CD4013B is
maximum Idd of 30uA at 5V, 60uA at 10V or 120uA at 15V. So, not a huge
lot of difference in the guaranteed numbers.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Nov 13, 2004

Hi Guy,

Common Source MOSFET
The common source MOSFET is the basic circuit in Anderton's Tube Sound
Fuzz. A similar circuit is used in Fender's Stage Lead, and EH "Hot
Tubes" pedals. This circuit can produce very convincing tube-like
distortion if it is carefully designed. The commonest way to do this
circuit is with the CD4049 or CD4069 CMOS logic (yes, logic) IC. It
can be misapplied by biasing it into its linear region and to function
as an amplifier. I don't know of any discrete transistor versions,
although Fender used a CD 4007 IC in the Stage Lead amps to get
tubey sound. The 4007 is essentially a CMOS transistor array. If you
use the 4007, you can put two P-channel devices and three N-channel
devices in parallel and achieve an asymetrical transfer function.

Achieving a 'tubey sound' with a regular CD4049BE ist going to be tough
since it behaves almost like a pretty good opamp. The CD4049UBE is much
different. It has only one stage per section and not three so it
features that soft run into the rails, just like the CD4007UBE. That one
extra letter in the part number makes a huge difference. Unfortunately
that is rarely known these days. I just came back from a store and they
only had the 4049UBE. Didn't need those since I always have plenty on
hand. The sales guy didn't know that made any difference. So there is
always a chance that someone who doesn't closely check gets the wrong
parts. I wish they had used a different part number. And I wish there
were more unbuffered versions in the 74HC series.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Nov 13, 2004

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:58:38 -0500, "Mr. Civility"
<reply2newsgroup@devnull.com> wrote:

A bit of trivia for those who like to use CMOS for analog purposes.

The old RCA CD4069UBE hex inverter was designed with the P-channel
devices about twice as large as the N-channel devices for roughly equal
drive capability and a switching point (or analog self-bias point) near
VDD/2. The devices in all 6 inverters are exactly the same size and are
even oriented all in the same direction on the die to minimize any
possible orientation-dependent photolithographic or materials/processing
variations.

So at least someone was thinking about analog applications even if the
thing was never really characterized or spec'd for them.

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Rich Grise · Nov 13, 2004

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 10:24:59 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 02:04:48 GMT, Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com
wrote:

[snip]

Whatever- a piss simple non-engineering kluge that ranks with your LED
equipped disco shoe garbage. Did you also make some of those miracle
cure bracelets, or maybe those TV reception gizmos, or any of that other
total trash...GARBAGE_DEVELOPER is what you should really call yourself.

Come on, Fred! You're slipping back again. Stop name-calling and
resume you erudite postings.

Actually, I find this very mild compared to some of Fred's stuff, but

I still agree with you that it doesn't accomplish much in a "real"
thread.

And here, I was going to lavish kudos on Fred for being the first
man I've seen spell "kluge" right in over 15 years! ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Jonathan Kirwan · Nov 13, 2004

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 18:36:59 GMT, Rich Grise <rich@example.net> wrote:

This made me curious - once you mention it, it's like, well, duh.
Of course. So I went to look it up. They only spec quiescent
current at 6V Vdd, but conspicuously missing was anything about
class A current.

It's real obvious considering the simple arrangement of a 4000 series inverter.
(If it's not precisely in mind, look at the data sheet for a CD4007 and the
example showing an inverter there. Then, imagine biasing the input somewhere in
the 'middle' with a Vcc of 12V!)

Jon

Rich The Philosophizer · Nov 12, 2004

On Thu, 11 Nov 2004 20:25:40 +0000, John Smith wrote:

"John Popelish" <jpopelish@rica.net> wrote in message
news:4192EA9A.72BABB9D@rica.net...
Joerg wrote:

Hello All,

CMOS logic such as the CD4000 series, 74HC and others can be used as
amps, signals switches, you name it. However, there isn't much data
available if you want to do that in a design for series production. I
wrote to ON Semi about it today. Still, my question would be:

Is there any good resource on the web or elsewhere about this topic? I
did try Google a lot but other than the usual app notes about making
amps and stuff with CMOS inverters there wasn't much out there. Of
course one can always simulate and 'Monte Carlo' it all to death but I
am looking more for information and data for the conceptual phase.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

The second half of my old purple RCA COSMOS data book is application
notes including several on analog design. You might look for one of
those.

Fairchild inherited some of those and has them on their web site,
including:
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-88.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-118.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-140.pdf
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/an/AN/AN-340.pdf

--
John Popelish

Some people are just extraordinarily good at searches. Thanks, John.

Well, don't discount a thousand years of experience. ;-)

Cheers!
Rich

Guy Macon · Nov 14, 2004

Product developer wrote:

Kill filing doesn't seem to remove the intended poster's garbage in
subsequent responses.

If someone insists on replying to abusive posts, I simply killfile
the person doing the responding as well.

I have a feeling that Fred has yet to produce anything of merit and
after taking a peek at the USPTO site, Fred has yet to be awarded a
single patent in his miserable career. I found it odd that there is
not even a single "bloggs" in the entire U.S. Patent database! I have
to assume that Fred's ancestors were equally creative and successful
in life. At least he has an excuse for his miserable existence,
genetics!

It appears that you are one of those who are replying to abusive posts.
Is that really what you want to do with your valuable time?
Yiu might want to read [ http://www.uwasa.fi/~ts/http/abusive.html ]...

Mr. Civility · Nov 14, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 08:58:38 -0500, "Mr. Civility"
reply2newsgroup@devnull.com> wrote:

A bit of trivia for those who like to use CMOS for analog purposes.

The old RCA CD4069UBE hex inverter was designed with the P-channel
devices about twice as large as the N-channel devices for roughly equal
drive capability and a switching point (or analog self-bias point) near
VDD/2. The devices in all 6 inverters are exactly the same size and are
even oriented all in the same direction on the die to minimize any
possible orientation-dependent photolithographic or materials/processing
variations.

So at least someone was thinking about analog applications even if the
thing was never really characterized or spec'd for them.

No. They were thinking of additional inverters.

...Jim Thompson

Perhaps I wasn't clear. Although designed primarily as a better general
purpose inverter pack compared to the earlier 4009/4049, the designer
took into account the idea that someone might want to use them in analog
applications.

--
Mr. Civility

Winfield Hill · Nov 14, 2004

Product developer wrote...

I have a feeling that Fred has yet to produce anything of merit and
after taking a peek at the USPTO site, Fred has yet to be awarded a
single patent in his miserable career. I found it odd that there is
not even a single "bloggs" in the entire U.S. Patent database! I have
to assume that Fred's ancestors were equally creative and successful
in life. At least he has an excuse for his miserable existence,
genetics!

Fred Bloggs is a pseudonym, a traditional test name, e.g.,
see http://www.iagnorfolk.co.uk/downloads/cv_general.pdf

The real s.e.d. Fred has had a useful and productive career.
He does have a patent, and it's a rather interesting one.
Fred prefers to remain incognito now, and we respect that.

--
Thanks,
- Win

Jim Thompson · Nov 14, 2004

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:17:09 -0800, Charles Edmondson
<edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]

Did you ever know an applications engineer who actually knew shit ?
They're almost always hackers without any ability to think beyond the
typical.

...Jim Thompson
Hey! I resemble that remark...

--
Charlie

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

ChrisGibboGibson · Nov 14, 2004

Jim Thompson wrote:

[snip]

I doubt that Bloggs is his real name. I suspect, but can't prove,
that Fred is the reincarnation of the infamous Robert. I'm trying to
recall Robert's (real) last name right now. I ran a trace on him a
number of years ago.

Well I'm not one for gossip but I'm pretty sure Fred actually gave quite a
strong hint to his identity in a post a within the last 2 months. In fact I
think he actually wrote his real name. Unless I misunderstood him.

Gibbo

Rich The Philosophizer · Nov 14, 2004

On Sun, 14 Nov 2004 09:55:27 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 20:17:09 -0800, Charles Edmondson
edmondson@ieee.org> wrote:

Jim Thompson wrote:
[snip]

Did you ever know an applications engineer who actually knew shit ?
They're almost always hackers without any ability to think beyond the
typical.

...Jim Thompson
Hey! I resemble that remark...

--
Charlie

Charlie, You're software apps. BIG difference.

Yeah. They're even _worse!_ ;-)

;^j
Rich

Guy Macon · Nov 12, 2004

Ralph Barone wrote:

chrisgibbogibson@aol.com (ChrisGibboGibson) wrote:

The best analogue circuit I ever saw for a 4000 series IC used a 4007 as
follows...

The inverter was biased to linear operation with as little feedback as
possible. This gave a soft clipping (very valvey [tubey] sounding) distortion
for an electric guitar.

The mosfets were arranged (can't remember exactly how) so that one was in the
feedback path and could thus reduce the feedback, it's gate driven from the
rectified output, this gave an expansion and very hard clipping.

The other mosfet was used to reduce the gain, its drive signal again from the
rectified output, and thus give compression.

Various switch options allowed combinations of the three effects.

The circuit worked brilliantly, sounded terrific and used almost no power.

Very inventive

I'd love to see that one posted if you ever come across it again.

That sounds a lot like the Craig Anderton Tube Sound Fuzz from
_Electronic Projects for Musicians_.
See [ http://www.geocities.com/j4_student/tsf.gif ].

From _A Musical Distortion Primer_ at
[ http://www.geofex.com/effxfaq/distn101.htm ]:

Common Source MOSFET
The common source MOSFET is the basic circuit in Anderton's Tube Sound
Fuzz. A similar circuit is used in Fender's Stage Lead, and EH "Hot
Tubes" pedals. This circuit can produce very convincing tube-like
distortion if it is carefully designed. The commonest way to do this
circuit is with the CD4049 or CD4069 CMOS logic (yes, logic) IC. It
can be misapplied by biasing it into its linear region and to function
as an amplifier. I don't know of any discrete transistor versions,
although Fender used a CD 4007 IC in the Stage Lead amps to get
tubey sound. The 4007 is essentially a CMOS transistor array. If you
use the 4007, you can put two P-channel devices and three N-channel
devices in parallel and achieve an asymetrical transfer function.

Also see:
[ http://www.geocities.com/j4_student/schematics.htm ]
[ http://www.ee.washington.edu/circuit_archive/text/guitareffects.html ]

Analog use of CMOS logic chips

Product developer

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