1kW Grid Interactive Solar PV up and running

[Mauried]

On Mon, 11 May 2009 16:43:51 +1000, "David L. Jones"
<altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

Mauried wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 12:53:30 +1000, "David L. Jones"
altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

Ross Herbert wrote:
On Mon, 11 May 2009 08:20:12 +1000, "David L. Jones"
altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

Looks like the suppliers are now actively targeting the vulnerable.
My mum and all the residents in her retirement village have just
received an offer from "Sancturary Energy" to install a 1kW system
on individual dwellings for $9000 which would supposedly be "at no
cost to them" ($8000 grant + $1000 REC's). It looks like they
specialise in this:
http://www.sanctuaryenergy.com.au/Packages-retirement.html
The installer is SolarSave:
http://www.solarsave.com.au/index.html

http://www.alternatezone.com/images/Solar1.jpg
http://www.alternatezone.com/images/Solar2.jpg

You have to sign up to Sanctuary as your energy supplier of course.
And the company supposedly has finance to cover the cost of the
installation between when it's installed and when the grant comes
through.
No studies are done on individual dwellings to even see if it's
even feasible for them, they are just telling everyone they can
save money if they sign up.

Dave.

There could be all sorts of complications arising out of such
promotions to people living in retirement villages. If the residents
don't own their own residence in that village (and they rarely do)
they must seek permission from the owner before installing anything
on that premises.

Yes indeed. Although that's not the case in this particular
situation.

The PV installation is the property of the applicant, who is not
necessarily the owner of the premises. What happens to the PV
ownership when they die? I fear the kids would have great difficulty
if they wanted to remove it and install it somewhere else. Such
offers are predatory IMO and the promoters know that most of the
elderly in these situations wouldn't be around long enough to
realise the payback for a PV installation so they would flog them
the cheapest components they could get away with. They are simply
looking to capture as much of the government supplied free money as
they can before it dries up.

My sentiments exactly.

I can't see this sort of promotion working out at all and any
retiree in such circumstances who may be considering the offer
should do some thorough checking externally, not just take the
promoter's word as gospel.

Yes, and there is very little real information supplied with the
info pack they got.
The company is sending a rep around to answer any questions at a
community meeting, but most people wouldn't know what the important
questions are. I advised my mum to avoid it completely, and she
liked the sound of that.

Dave.
From reading the eligibility requirements for the rebate, the
applicant can only install the Solar System at the address
of the owner of the premises as shown in the electoral roll.
This would prevent a non owner from installing a system
even if the owner agreed to it.
Its even more vague if a person is the owner, but doesnt own the roof
in the case of a strata titled multi storey apartment.

Or if the person lives in a caravan park and owns the van.
People who rent seem to be totally excluded.

In this case the village is "company title" which means a "corporation"
technically owns the land and dwellings, of which all the resisdents are
equal shareholders of the corporation. Each resident gets one share and
effectively owns one dwelling.
Who knows how that would work in this case, I'm sure lawyers would salivate
at the thought of it.

Dave.

--
================================================
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/


Theres a number of other strange conditions which people may not be

aware of.
One is that there is a maximum time limit for the entire system to be
installed and commisioned, and this time limit is shown on the letter
the applicant receives from the program manager of the rebate program.
If the system isnt installed and commisioned within the time frame
the rebate lapses.
What happens if thru no fault of the applicant or the installer the
system isnt commisioned in this time frame, for example if the local
power company is very slow in approving and making the final
connection which required the new meter to be installed.
Where I live , this time is currently 3 months.
Another strange condition is that the Program Manager of the
rebate program can demand in the first 5 years to see reports
of the operation of the system.
This would imply that the owner will have to keep records
of how well the system works.
Whats the case if a home owner who has a mortgage instalsl a solar
system and later thru mortgage default loses the house.
Who owns the solar system?

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi Ross,

Ross Herbert wrote:

< .. >

All I can say is, if you are convinced the offer is good then give it a go and
let us know the result. However, remember what they say, "if it looks too good
to be true, it probably is." To me, It looks too good to be true - but then I am
rather skeptical.

I'm also a skeptic, which is why I didn't run out and sign up
immediately (or yet). But I didn't want to dismiss it as a scam either,
in accepting that bulk purchases of lower end systems for a reduced
price, are probably possible..

Regards,

Ross..

 

[David L. Jones]

David L. Jones wrote:

Ross Herbert wrote:
Yesterday, my Sharp/Fronius 1kW system was installed and today I saw
the benefit on the meter. At the end of the day the meter reading was
about 2 kWh less than at the start of the day. The peak power
production was around 840W due to the sun being at rather a low angle
at this time of year.

For some reason the installer forgot he hadn't informed the supply
authority that they had to change the meter so until it is changed
the old meter simply runs backwards while the PV is producing power
during the day.

Looks like the suppliers are now actively targeting the vulnerable.
My mum and all the residents in her retirement village have just
received an offer from "Sancturary Energy" to install a 1kW system on
individual dwellings for $9000 which would supposedly be "at no cost
to them" ($8000 grant + $1000 REC's). It looks like they specialise
in this: http://www.sanctuaryenergy.com.au/Packages-retirement.html
The installer is SolarSave:
http://www.solarsave.com.au/index.html

http://www.alternatezone.com/images/Solar1.jpg
http://www.alternatezone.com/images/Solar2.jpg

You have to sign up to Sanctuary as your energy supplier of course.
And the company supposedly has finance to cover the cost of the
installation between when it's installed and when the grant comes
through. No studies are done on individual dwellings to even see if it's
even
feasible for them, they are just telling everyone they can save money
if they sign up.

Turns out almost everyone at the village is going to sign up. My mum didn't
want to feel left out, so I had no choice but to now reassure her signing up
is not a bad idea, considering they have not been asked to pay anything at
all.

Apparently the company told everyone they would never get another electricy
bill. But based on my mums 8kWh daily average (not unreasonable), I told her
to still expect a (much smaller) bill.

If everything goes smoothly and as claimed, then they all get a 1KW solar
system installed for free.
With nearly 150 units in the village, this will be a big installation.

I'll keep the group updated on progress.

Dave.

--
---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/

 

[terryc]

On Mon, 18 May 2009 22:28:28 +1000, David L. Jones wrote:

Apparently the company told everyone they would never get another
electricy bill. But based on my mums 8kWh daily average (not
unreasonable), I told her to still expect a (much smaller) bill.

Are you telling me that none of these old codgers was smart enough to get
that statement in writing?

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi,

David L. Jones wrote:

Turns out almost everyone at the village is going to sign up. My mum didn't
want to feel left out, so I had no choice but to now reassure her signing up
is not a bad idea, considering they have not been asked to pay anything at
all.

< .. >

One of the previously more expensive vendors seems to have cut their
price, i.e:
http://www.energymatters.com.au/specials/solar-rebate-maximiser.php

Time to sign up with someone, I suppose..

Regards,

Ross..

 

[David L. Jones]

Ross Vumbaca wrote:

Hi,

David L. Jones wrote:

Turns out almost everyone at the village is going to sign up. My mum
didn't want to feel left out, so I had no choice but to now reassure
her signing up is not a bad idea, considering they have not been
asked to pay anything at all.

..

One of the previously more expensive vendors seems to have cut their
price, i.e:
http://www.energymatters.com.au/specials/solar-rebate-maximiser.php

Time to sign up with someone, I suppose..

Regards,

Ross..

I'd sign up in a second if I could get a 1KW system for $2500.
I hope the new "no means test" rebate after June still allows for prices
like these.
Shows the power of bulk "community" buying though. Individuals pay $2500+,
my mums community gets the same thing for free.

Dave.

--
================================================
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi,

David L. Jones wrote:

I'd sign up in a second if I could get a 1KW system for $2500.
I hope the new "no means test" rebate after June still allows for prices
like these.

In my understanding, the new scheme will be based on RECs (Renewable
Energy Certificates). A REC currently is worth about $46. In the new
system it will be worth 5x, i.e $230.

A 1kW system currently gets 21 RECs, or around $1000. Under the new
scheme those RECs will be worth $4830, so that is the "rebate". A 1kW
system will therefore be less subsidised.

However, a higher output system such as 2kW will be worth about $9660 in
rebates, so the subsidy is greater than the previous $8000. The greater
amount of RECs, the greater the subsidy.

Interestingly the means testing was introduced by the Labor party in
2008, and did not exist previously, but I suppose the price of PV
systems was a bit higher at the time..

Shows the power of bulk "community" buying though. Individuals pay $2500+,
my mums community gets the same thing for free.

Quite a few vendors have been offering "$0" systems such as Nu Energy,
State Solar Services, Beyond Building Energy. Some ask for a
(refundable) deposit, others do not. A fairly lively whirlpool thread
has formed over this here:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/1187344.html

The difficulty for those that qualify is in deciding between paying a
reasonably "small" $2500 or paying "$0", at the risk that the "$0"
company might be somehow "less reliable" or not deliver. Then amongst
the "$0" companies, there are those that ask for a (refundable) deposit
of around $2000, and those that don't. The question then arises as to
what happens to a deposit, if a company goes under.

Some people suggest to cover this risk with a credit card, but I spoke
to my bank, and the chargeback period for a credit card is 90 days,
although they will consider chargebacks after this period at their
discretion. With 6-8 weeks for pre-approval, none of these companies can
install in less than 90 days.

Regards,

Ross..

 

[David L. Jones]

Ross Vumbaca wrote:

Hi,

David L. Jones wrote:

I'd sign up in a second if I could get a 1KW system for $2500.
I hope the new "no means test" rebate after June still allows for
prices like these.

In my understanding, the new scheme will be based on RECs (Renewable
Energy Certificates). A REC currently is worth about $46. In the new
system it will be worth 5x, i.e $230.

A 1kW system currently gets 21 RECs, or around $1000. Under the new
scheme those RECs will be worth $4830, so that is the "rebate". A 1kW
system will therefore be less subsidised.

However, a higher output system such as 2kW will be worth about $9660
in rebates, so the subsidy is greater than the previous $8000. The
greater amount of RECs, the greater the subsidy.

Interestingly the means testing was introduced by the Labor party in
2008, and did not exist previously, but I suppose the price of PV
systems was a bit higher at the time..

Shows the power of bulk "community" buying though. Individuals pay
$2500+, my mums community gets the same thing for free.

Quite a few vendors have been offering "$0" systems such as Nu Energy,
State Solar Services, Beyond Building Energy. Some ask for a
(refundable) deposit, others do not. A fairly lively whirlpool thread
has formed over this here:
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies-archive.cfm/1187344.html

The difficulty for those that qualify is in deciding between paying a
reasonably "small" $2500 or paying "$0", at the risk that the "$0"
company might be somehow "less reliable" or not deliver. Then amongst
the "$0" companies, there are those that ask for a (refundable)
deposit of around $2000, and those that don't. The question then
arises as to what happens to a deposit, if a company goes under.

Some people suggest to cover this risk with a credit card, but I spoke
to my bank, and the chargeback period for a credit card is 90 days,
although they will consider chargebacks after this period at their
discretion. With 6-8 weeks for pre-approval, none of these companies
can install in less than 90 days.

Regards,

Ross..

Systems are getting cheaper very quickly, almost monthly it seems, so
hopefully by the time the new REC scheme comes around the "loss" in the
rebate may have been made up for in what the system installers can offer
price-wise. I'll still happily pay a few thousand for a system, but over
that it's not quite such a no-brainer.
Time will tell...

Dave.

--
================================================
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/

 

[TonyS]

David L. Jones wrote:
[snip]

Looks like the suppliers are now actively targeting the vulnerable.
[snip]

Just came across a letter to the editor in our local paper regarding this
subject. Someone signed up for $8500, after the rebate....

(You can see a copy here: http://scarborofun.com/ripoff.html)

IIRC one can actually get out of such a contract, within a cooling off period.
Hope they know about this.


Tony

 

[David L. Jones]

TonyS wrote:

David L. Jones wrote:
[snip]
Looks like the suppliers are now actively targeting the vulnerable.
[snip]

Just came across a letter to the editor in our local paper regarding
this subject. Someone signed up for $8500, after the rebate....

(You can see a copy here: http://scarborofun.com/ripoff.html)

Geeze, they didn't even name the company!
Only an idiot signs up on the spot for something like that without getting
further quotes, the salesman saw them coming.

IIRC one can actually get out of such a contract, within a cooling
off period. Hope they know about this.

The good thing is they don't have to pay a cent, the ball and risk is
squarely in the installers court, if they don't come through their creditors
will eat them alive.

Dave.
--
================================================
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi,

TonyS wrote:

Just came across a letter to the editor in our local paper regarding
this subject. Someone signed up for $8500, after the rebate....

(You can see a copy here: http://scarborofun.com/ripoff.html)

IIRC one can actually get out of such a contract, within a cooling off
period.
Hope they know about this.

$8500 AFTER the rebate? Someone has no idea what they heck they are
doing, to do that without even gauging the average price for a system
from more than one installer.

Regards,

Ross..