1kW Grid Interactive Solar PV up and running

[Ross Herbert]

On Thu, 7 May 2009 20:26:07 +1000, "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

Sorry to have upset you David. In fact I read most of your posts and I find them
to be generally well constructed and helpful. I also look at your video blogs
and find them useful and I applaud you for having a go.

I don't use websites for posting pictures and I don't want to set up my own web
space on my ISP (it costs more and $60/mth is more than enough right now) so I
didn't want to go down that path just so a few people who can't get binary NG's
could see the pics. Probably if you had asked me I would also have emailed them
direct to you.

 

[David L. Jones]

--
"Ross Herbert" <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:u7e505lhv4dckupg1dbnfjqnt8tk46fsub@4ax.com...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 20:26:07 +1000, "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com
wrote:

Sorry to have upset you David. In fact I read most of your posts and I
find them
to be generally well constructed and helpful. I also look at your video
blogs
and find them useful and I applaud you for having a go.

Thanks.
Not upset at all, was a just a tad confused at your response.

I don't use websites for posting pictures and I don't want to set up my
own web
space on my ISP (it costs more and $60/mth is more than enough right now)
so I
didn't want to go down that path just so a few people who can't get binary
NG's
could see the pics.

Actually, you'll likely find the majority of people either don't have easy
access to ABSE, have no idea what it is, or use a reader that doesn't
support it or whatever etc.

Probably if you had asked me I would also have emailed them
direct to you.

Sure, I was just thinking of others, that's all. There are regular
complaints on these groups that people can't see stuff on ABSE for various
reasons.

I've got oodles of web space, so more than happy to set up an FTP account
for yourself or anyone else who wants a permanent place to upload and store
their newsgroup images and files.

Regards
Dave.

---------------------------------------------
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/

 

[atec 7 7]

Ross Herbert wrote:

On Thu, 07 May 2009 20:08:17 +1000, atec 7 7 <"atec 77 "@hotmail.com> wrote:

:Ross Herbert wrote:
:> On Thu, 07 May 2009 09:52:40 GMT, Ross Herbert <rherber1@bigpond.net.au
wrote:
:
:> I meant to say;
:
:> :I can't see any company being able to remain in business if they are
providing
:> :and installing systems for almost zero profit, ESPECIALLY if they are doing
:> :installations for free.
:its possible to buy a 1kw system in China for around 4k Us , which means
:in real terms about 30% off the retail price here for a real wholesale
:but .. looks better now


So $US4K is approx $AU5K3.
that's with approval and landed here.. I don't know how they do it but

that's the cost on the invoice I have here.
How much to import all the parts from China while

making sure they comply with Australian standards? Who verifies that they do
comply
very rare if the claim is made , I would think the only thing needing

a tick is the inverter and maybe the battery ? but its like the prius
battery I guess
- and what if they don't? You still have to pay for installation at

current labour costs on top of all this.
the install doesn't take long apart from the board which is a couple

of hours max
One would imagine that Nuenergy would

still be trying to make a profit on top of all the charges so it still can't be
done for zero out of pocket expenses as claimed by Nuenergy.
agreed ... so how do they make $ ?

It should also be remembered that all the costs have to be submitted to the
Australian goverment when applying for the $8K rebate,
why ?

surely it's an invoice which may or may not be relevant to the actual
cost ?
which has to be done

before you even place anorder for the equipment.
nah

Do you think they would approve

the rebate if you were not going to actually have an out of pocket expense?

why not ?

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

"David L. Jones" wrote:

If you took the time to notice I am posting from a "real" news server, not
Google Groups. Yes, I happen to use gmail for my email on newsgroups.
Not that I can understand your problem, I'm hardly some "google grouper"
newbie, I'm only like the 2nd or 3rd biggest contributor to this group :-
Many people with "real" news servers just like you do not have access to
ABSE.
With your ISP you are almost certainly paying for web space, which is course
a much better way to show your stuff for many reasons. But hey, your choice.
Someone was kind enough to email me your attachments.

Regards
Dave.

<http://www.usenet-replayer.com/groups/alt.binaries.schematics.electronic.html>
has most of the binary posts from ABSE. It is slow to update, and
doesn't get everything, but it is something for those with no accessto
binary newsgroups. It is for veiwing only, no posting.

--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Ross Herbert wrote:

Sorry, I don't make special arrangements for those on gmail accounts. I pay for
my ISP to provide web, email and NG's and I'm a self funded retiree.

Get a free Flicker account, and post your images there. More and
more people are losing access to any binary newsgroup, because of abuse
and the required bandwidth.


--
You can't have a sense of humor, if you have no sense!

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 07 May 2009 10:38:54 GMT, Ross Herbert
<rherber1@bigpond.net.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

I don't use websites for posting pictures and I don't want to set up my own web
space on my ISP (it costs more ...

http://my.bigpond.com/whybigpond/

"Every BigPond Member has the option of creating their own website,
with no establishment fee, no monthly charge, up to 10MB of disk space
and up to 100MB of data served per month (11)."

11. "Unused data forfeited each month. Additional fees apply if
allowance is exceeded."

Does that mean that BigPond will bill you for excess data downloaded
from your web site? If so, then it seems to me that a malicious
individual could cause you great financial mischief. Why would any
user want to expose themselves to that risk?

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 07 May 2009 17:08:36 +1000, Ross Vumbaca
<rossv1@au.com.optushome> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Hi Ross,

Ross Herbert wrote:

The Nuenergy offer is basically a SCAM. The PV panels are of unknown make and
can be either mono or polycrystalline type-it is not stated in the advertising.
The inverter is an unknown brand with unknown Chinese pedigree. The system is
run on a bulk purchase only deal AIUI - you pays your money up front and you
wait, and wait,,,, and perhaps you never even get to see your PV system and your
money has disappeared. Would you buy a new car on this basis?

The legitimate suppliers are up in arms and are making representation to the
ACCC to have Nuenergy explain/comply with customer protection standards.

According to their FAQ at:
http://www.nuenergy.com.au/pdfs/20090501_nue_faqs.pdf

The inverter is an "SMA Sunny Boy (German)" not 'unknown Chinese
pedigree', the PV panels are "6 x 170W mono-crystalline CEEG".

Its capacity is only 1100W.

There is no indication that you would lose the deposit (unless they are
a true con and plan to disappear).

Pay with a credit card and get some protection that way.

I would like to know more about whether they are REALLY a scam or not,
because it's getting really hard to decide what to do, and time is
running out.

There are extra costs, eg $120 for a tiled roof, $200-$250 for
relocating the inverter away from excessively sunny areas.

They sure do offer an attractive offer for people that aren't earning
$100 000, thanks to the rebate. The indication is that the whole system
is free, as they use the Rebate and sale of RECs to fund it. However
they may well be a scam, though not for the reason you mention above,
unless their FAQ blatantly lies.

Regards,

Ross..

A monocrystalline panel, 2kW inverter system proposed by Aussie Solar
would cost me $9515 whereas the NuEnergy 1.1kW inverter system would
cost $8670 - $8720. The 2kW inverter would have reserve capacity for
extra panels, but I don't know whether it would be any more robust
than the 1.1kW inverter when used with 1kW panels. It may be worth
pricing a Sunny Boy 2100TL just for comparison.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Clifford Heath]

David L. Jones wrote:

But can you post the photos on the web some how, for those (like me) that
don't have easy acess to ABSE?

The free (actually, one-time $US2.95, which I think serves as a legal check of adulthood)
Teranews account gets you all the newsgroups with a limit of 50MB/day. It's all you need.

 

[terryc]

On Fri, 08 May 2009 07:57:45 +1000, Franc Zabkar wrote:

11. "Unused data forfeited each month. Additional fees apply if
allowance is exceeded."

Does that mean that BigPond will bill you for excess data downloaded
from your web site? If so, then it seems to me that a malicious
individual could cause you great financial mischief. Why would any user
want to expose themselves to that risk?

Exactly the reason I do not use my "free" webspace. The trade off is to
register a domain name ($40/2yr) with free(dyndns?)/paid($40pa) DNS ad
hose it online (dialup will work,but basic 256/64 adsl is fine).

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Thu, 7 May 2009 20:57:12 +1000, "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

David, Thanks for the offer and I will take it up in the future.

One thing which has only just started happening with your posts on this NG is
that as soon as I hit the reply button all of the content in your post just
disappears from the screen and I am left with a blank pane to type in. That is
why none of your post I am responding to now appears in this response.

I don't know why it happens but if I go back to respond to your earlier posts,
say on Tonights New Inventors thread, it doesn't happen. It has only started
happening since I responded to your post in this thread on May 7. Posts you made
before that date in this thread are ok and I see everything in them when I hit
reply.

Can anyone give a reason?

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:30:34 +1000, atec 7 7 <"atec 77 "@hotmail.com> wrote:

:Ross Herbert wrote:
:> On Thu, 07 May 2009 20:08:17 +1000, atec 7 7 <"atec 77 "@hotmail.com> wrote:
:>
:> :Ross Herbert wrote:
:> :> On Thu, 07 May 2009 09:52:40 GMT, Ross Herbert <rherber1@bigpond.net.au>
:> wrote:
:> :>
:> :> I meant to say;
:> :>
:> :> :I can't see any company being able to remain in business if they are
:> providing
:> :> :and installing systems for almost zero profit, ESPECIALLY if they are
doing
:> :> :installations for free.
:> :its possible to buy a 1kw system in China for around 4k Us , which means
:> :in real terms about 30% off the retail price here for a real wholesale
:> :but .. looks better now
:>
:>
:> So $US4K is approx $AU5K3.
: that's with approval and landed here.. I don't know how they do it but
:that's the cost on the invoice I have here.
:How much to import all the parts from China while
:> making sure they comply with Australian standards? Who verifies that they do
:> comply
: very rare if the claim is made , I would think the only thing needing
:a tick is the inverter and maybe the battery ? but its like the prius
:battery I guess
: - and what if they don't? You still have to pay for installation at
:> current labour costs on top of all this.
: the install doesn't take long apart from the board which is a couple
f hours max
: One would imagine that Nuenergy would
:> still be trying to make a profit on top of all the charges so it still can't
be
:> done for zero out of pocket expenses as claimed by Nuenergy.
: agreed ... so how do they make $ ?
:>
:> It should also be remembered that all the costs have to be submitted to the
:> Australian goverment when applying for the $8K rebate,
: why ?
: surely it's an invoice which may or may not be relevant to the actual
:cost ?
:which has to be done
:> before you even place anorder for the equipment.
: nah
: Do you think they would approve
:> the rebate if you were not going to actually have an out of pocket expense?
:
:why not ?

Have you actually downloaded and read the application form?
http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/renewable/pv/pubs/shcp-application-residential-21may2008.pdf

I would say that you appear convinced of the validity of the Nuenergy (and other
similar) offer so I can only recommend that you give it a try and see what
happens. Then report back after it has been operating for a year and let us know
how it is performing.

Personally, I would want a reputable company behind the supply of recognised
brand name equipment and a reputable qualified installer so that if there is any
comeback later, I can actually talk to a real person who will have to take up my
complaint.

 

[David L. Jones]

"Ross Herbert" <rherber1@bigpond.net.au> wrote in message
news:dnb705l7070a75i9ldg1t602urrf39vsgg@4ax.com...

On Thu, 7 May 2009 20:57:12 +1000, "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com
wrote:

David, Thanks for the offer and I will take it up in the future.

One thing which has only just started happening with your posts on this NG
is
that as soon as I hit the reply button all of the content in your post
just
disappears from the screen and I am left with a blank pane to type in.
That is
why none of your post I am responding to now appears in this response.

I don't know why it happens but if I go back to respond to your earlier
posts,
say on Tonights New Inventors thread, it doesn't happen. It has only
started
happening since I responded to your post in this thread on May 7. Posts
you made
before that date in this thread are ok and I see everything in them when I
hit
reply.

Can anyone give a reason?

No idea. Nothing changed on my end.

Dave.

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 08 May 2009 04:16:30 GMT, Ross Herbert
<rherber1@bigpond.net.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 20:57:12 +1000, "David L. Jones" <altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

David, Thanks for the offer and I will take it up in the future.

One thing which has only just started happening with your posts on this NG is
that as soon as I hit the reply button all of the content in your post just
disappears from the screen and I am left with a blank pane to type in. That is
why none of your post I am responding to now appears in this response.

I don't know why it happens but if I go back to respond to your earlier posts,
say on Tonights New Inventors thread, it doesn't happen. It has only started
happening since I responded to your post in this thread on May 7. Posts you made
before that date in this thread are ok and I see everything in them when I hit
reply.

Can anyone give a reason?

The post that you are replying to has a dash-dash-space in the third
line. This is the recognised sig delimiter, so anything that comes
after it is stripped.

Either David's newsreader, OE, is having trouble recognising this
convention, or he's adding this line himself.

You can use Ctrl-A to select the entire post and then hit R(eply).
Then delete the offending line.

I suggest that OE users apply "OE Quotefix" to correct other quoting
problems, such as missing quote characters when replying to "quoted
printable" posts.

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[David L. Jones]

Franc Zabkar wrote:

On Fri, 08 May 2009 04:16:30 GMT, Ross Herbert
rherber1@bigpond.net.au> put finger to keyboard and composed:

On Thu, 7 May 2009 20:57:12 +1000, "David L. Jones"
altzone@gmail.com> wrote:

David, Thanks for the offer and I will take it up in the future.

One thing which has only just started happening with your posts on
this NG is that as soon as I hit the reply button all of the content
in your post just disappears from the screen and I am left with a
blank pane to type in. That is why none of your post I am responding
to now appears in this response.

I don't know why it happens but if I go back to respond to your
earlier posts, say on Tonights New Inventors thread, it doesn't
happen. It has only started happening since I responded to your post
in this thread on May 7. Posts you made before that date in this
thread are ok and I see everything in them when I hit reply.

Can anyone give a reason?

The post that you are replying to has a dash-dash-space in the third
line. This is the recognised sig delimiter, so anything that comes
after it is stripped.

Either David's newsreader, OE, is having trouble recognising this
convention, or he's adding this line himself.

You can use Ctrl-A to select the entire post and then hit R(eply).
Then delete the offending line.

I suggest that OE users apply "OE Quotefix" to correct other quoting
problems, such as missing quote characters when replying to "quoted
printable" posts.

http://home.in.tum.de/~jain/software/oe-quotefix/

- Franc Zabkar

Ah, I always wondered what those two dashes were!
Outlook was putting my new sig up the top of replies, and I wasn't manually
cut'n'pasting the dash-dash.
Installed QuoteFix, now automatically puts the quote at the bottom. Thanks.

Dave.

--
================================================
Check out my Electronics Engineering Video Blog & Podcast:
http://www.alternatezone.com/eevblog/

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi,

Franc Zabkar wrote:

The inverter is an "SMA Sunny Boy (German)" not 'unknown Chinese
pedigree', the PV panels are "6 x 170W mono-crystalline CEEG".

Its capacity is only 1100W.

Which is sufficient for a "1kW system", but they allow you to upgrade to
higher rated inverters.

There is no indication that you would lose the deposit (unless they are
a true con and plan to disappear).

Pay with a credit card and get some protection that way.

I thought of that, but I heard that you need to claim a chargeback with
60-75 days usually, and the waiting period could be longer from
NuEnergy, due to the slow turnaround in getting the rebate approved, and
the demand for installs..

There are extra costs, eg $120 for a tiled roof, $200-$250 for
relocating the inverter away from excessively sunny areas.

Indeed, but these are really not too bad in the league of paying many
thousands of dollars from other vendors.

A monocrystalline panel, 2kW inverter system proposed by Aussie Solar
would cost me $9515 whereas the NuEnergy 1.1kW inverter system would
cost $8670 - $8720. The 2kW inverter would have reserve capacity for
extra panels, but I don't know whether it would be any more robust
than the 1.1kW inverter when used with 1kW panels. It may be worth
pricing a Sunny Boy 2100TL just for comparison.

No rebate for yourself?

Regards,

Ross..

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Fri, 08 May 2009 16:41:03 +1000, Ross Vumbaca
<rossv1@au.com.optushome> put finger to keyboard and composed:

Franc Zabkar wrote:

A monocrystalline panel, 2kW inverter system proposed by Aussie Solar
would cost me $9515 whereas the NuEnergy 1.1kW inverter system would
cost $8670 - $8720.

No rebate for yourself?

Yes, I qualify for the rebate.

- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi Ross,

Ross Herbert wrote:

(For some reason, my news server (optusnet) has dropped a few of your
posts, and I only see this reply, but I was able to post your reply in
from google groups):

I fail to see how they can both supply the equioment AND carry out the
installation for less than the $8K rebate plus RECS.

If you wanted to install a similar quality system to the Sharp 1kW system
yourself then look at the costs involved;

PV panels Sharp 24V 175W NTR5E3E cost $1,550 each
http://www.energymatters.com.au/sharp-solar-panel-175watt-24volt-mono...
and a Fronius IG15 inverter costs $3,074
http://www.energymatters.com.au/fronius-1500watt-grid-connect-inverte...

These 2 items alone account for $12,374 alone for a 1kW system so even if you
receive $9000 in rebate and RECS you still have to find $3,374 PLUS extraneous
materials such as roof frame, isolator CB's, cabling etc, plus contractor
labour. Remember, If you don't use a contractor who is certified to install
solar PV systems you don't get the $8K rebate, so that expense must be on top of
all other items.

I think it is inappropriate to try and compare your high-end
Sharp/Fronius system to NuEnergy. They are not claiming to supply anyone
with Sharp/Fronius, so a price comparison doesn't mean much.

They clearly state that the inverter is a Sunny Boy 1100W, and their
panels are "CEEG". See this link for CEEG:
http://www.ceegsst.com/English/Aboutus.asp

I wasn't too sure about the brand of panels, so I did a bit of googling
and reading, and it's true that this brand of panels is fairly new on
the market (i.e not well known), but one of their technicians/directors
is an associate professor in PV from UNSW. You can see his profile here:
http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/Staff/jianhuazhao.asp

These CEEG panels are much cheaper than Sharp, and obviously they are
paying a bulk-purchase price, which will be cheaper than the prices you
see on typical places such as energymatters, who are trying to make a
profit when they sell panels to end users.

According to an active Whirlpool forum, they might be paying down to
$800/panel or less.. (Not vouching for its authenticity though).

Even using a Sunny Boy 1100W inverter instead of a Fronius IG15 will set you
back around $2,360
http://www.energymatters.com.au/sma-sunny-boy-1100watt-grid-connect-i...

I think that's a typical end user price with big mark up. If you buy
these in bulk and at wholesale, they are much cheaper. How can
energymatters make any money if they didn't add a mark up for themselves?

It is impossible for Nuenergy to provide and install anything approaching the
quality of the Sharp 1kW system (or even the Sunny Boy/Uni-Solar) for the cost
of the $8K rebate plus RECS while still making a profit. It has to be a scam.

You're correct that it is impossible for a company to supply something
without making a profit. Especially with solar, since there is not much
scope for "repeated business". Once you get your system, you might not
deal with them again for a long time. Therefore they must be able to
make a profit (or be a scam). Note that NuEnergy aren't the only ones, I
just got pointed to: http://www.statesolarservices.com.au/index.php who
have also started to offer a low cost (i.e almost free) solar system to
those that have the rebate. They do use the lower cost Latronics
inverter, and their panels are "Fullgreen Solar" (taken from their FAQ).

There are either a great amount of scammers starting to appear, or due
to a bulk-purchasing and the perceived rush for solar rebates, a number
of companies have been able to secure large amounts of panels and
inverters at low cost. I also heard that Sunny boy will soon discontinue
their 1100W inverter for a newer model, which supports the theory of
cheaper bulk purchases, as they may be clearing them.

Regarding NuEnergy as a company, I have heard (but not verified) that
they have been in business for over 20 years, and that their new CEO has
a decent track record. They're also members of the "Clean Energy
Council", which apparently charges a fee every year for
membership/approval, so they don't really strike me as a backyard
operation/scam.

It's also worth mentioning that a lot of smaller installers are up in
arms at the appearance of low cost PV systems (via a rebate) since they
can't really compete with large companies and their large buying power.
Understandably they are biased, and will spread all sorts of
information, some of which may be untrue, but they are trying to protect
their market of course. You wrote yourself that you hadn't looked at
their site, but had been in discussion with someone, is he the person
that suggested that they use "cheap chinese inverters of unknown
pedigree"? (This was untrue).

Despite all this, they might still be a scam, it's a tough call.. (Not
everyone can afford a high grade system, certainly not my parents).

Regards,

Ross..

 

[atec 7 7]

Ross Herbert wrote:

On Thu, 07 May 2009 21:30:34 +1000, atec 7 7 <"atec 77 "@hotmail.com> wrote:

:Ross Herbert wrote:
:> On Thu, 07 May 2009 20:08:17 +1000, atec 7 7 <"atec 77 "@hotmail.com> wrote:
:
:> :Ross Herbert wrote:
:> :> On Thu, 07 May 2009 09:52:40 GMT, Ross Herbert <rherber1@bigpond.net.au
:> wrote:
:> :
:> :> I meant to say;
:> :
:> :> :I can't see any company being able to remain in business if they are
:> providing
:> :> :and installing systems for almost zero profit, ESPECIALLY if they are
doing
:> :> :installations for free.
:> :its possible to buy a 1kw system in China for around 4k Us , which means
:> :in real terms about 30% off the retail price here for a real wholesale
:> :but .. looks better now
:
:
:> So $US4K is approx $AU5K3.
: that's with approval and landed here.. I don't know how they do it but
:that's the cost on the invoice I have here.
:How much to import all the parts from China while
:> making sure they comply with Australian standards? Who verifies that they do
:> comply
: very rare if the claim is made , I would think the only thing needing
:a tick is the inverter and maybe the battery ? but its like the prius
:battery I guess
: - and what if they don't? You still have to pay for installation at
:> current labour costs on top of all this.
: the install doesn't take long apart from the board which is a couple
f hours max
: One would imagine that Nuenergy would
:> still be trying to make a profit on top of all the charges so it still can't
be
:> done for zero out of pocket expenses as claimed by Nuenergy.
: agreed ... so how do they make $ ?
:
:> It should also be remembered that all the costs have to be submitted to the
:> Australian goverment when applying for the $8K rebate,
: why ?
: surely it's an invoice which may or may not be relevant to the actual
:cost ?
:which has to be done
:> before you even place anorder for the equipment.
: nah
: Do you think they would approve
:> the rebate if you were not going to actually have an out of pocket expense?
:
:why not ?

Have you actually downloaded and read the application form?
no reason to
http://www.environment.gov.au/settlements/renewable/pv/pubs/shcp-application-residential-21may2008.pdf

I would say that you appear convinced of the validity of the Nuenergy
nah

(and other

similar) offer so I can only recommend that you give it a try and see what
happens.
not any time soon as we already have a very large system well below

retail
Then report back after it has been operating for a year and let us know

how it is performing.
show the way sunshine

Personally, I would want a reputable company behind the supply of recognised
brand name equipment and a reputable qualified installer so that if there is any
comeback later, I can actually talk to a real person who will have to take up my
complaint.
that's why I imported my own much cheaper

 

[Ross Vumbaca]

Hi Franc,

Franc Zabkar wrote:

A monocrystalline panel, 2kW inverter system proposed by Aussie Solar
would cost me $9515 whereas the NuEnergy 1.1kW inverter system would
cost $8670 - $8720.
No rebate for yourself?

Yes, I qualify for the rebate.

Then the NuEnergy system would cost possibly < $1000, from your post I
got the impression that the NuEnergy system would cost you "$8670 - $8720".

I just took a look at Aussie solar's website, they also offer relatively
low prices, with around $2710 for a 1kW system. Do you have any details
on their inverter or panels?

Assuming that Aussie solar are quite reputable, it doesn't seem far
fetched then, to see http://www.solarsave.com.au/products.html offering
one for $1990 (cheaper), since they may be using a cheaper
inverter/cheaper panels. Or for the really big purchasers, who get
bigger bulk discounts, even less..

What is your opinion of the recent players that are offering 1kW systems
for < $1000? (NuEnergy, and
http://www.statesolarservices.com.au/index.php amongst others).

Regards,

Ross..

 

[Ross Herbert]

On Fri, 08 May 2009 17:44:47 +1000, Ross Vumbaca <rossv1@au.com.optushome>
wrote:

:Hi Ross,
:
:Ross Herbert wrote:
:
For some reason, my news server (optusnet) has dropped a few of your
osts, and I only see this reply, but I was able to post your reply in
:from google groups):
:
:> I fail to see how they can both supply the equioment AND carry out the
:> installation for less than the $8K rebate plus RECS.
:>
:> If you wanted to install a similar quality system to the Sharp 1kW system
:> yourself then look at the costs involved;
:>
:> PV panels Sharp 24V 175W NTR5E3E cost $1,550 each
:> http://www.energymatters.com.au/sharp-solar-panel-175watt-24volt-mono...
:> and a Fronius IG15 inverter costs $3,074
:> http://www.energymatters.com.au/fronius-1500watt-grid-connect-inverte...
:>
:> These 2 items alone account for $12,374 alone for a 1kW system so even if you
:> receive $9000 in rebate and RECS you still have to find $3,374 PLUS
extraneous
:> materials such as roof frame, isolator CB's, cabling etc, plus contractor
:> labour. Remember, If you don't use a contractor who is certified to install
:> solar PV systems you don't get the $8K rebate, so that expense must be on top
of
:> all other items.
:
:I think it is inappropriate to try and compare your high-end
:Sharp/Fronius system to NuEnergy. They are not claiming to supply anyone
:with Sharp/Fronius, so a price comparison doesn't mean much.
:
:They clearly state that the inverter is a Sunny Boy 1100W, and their
anels are "CEEG". See this link for CEEG:
:http://www.ceegsst.com/English/Aboutus.asp
:
:I wasn't too sure about the brand of panels, so I did a bit of googling
:and reading, and it's true that this brand of panels is fairly new on
:the market (i.e not well known), but one of their technicians/directors
:is an associate professor in PV from UNSW. You can see his profile here:
:http://www.pv.unsw.edu.au/Staff/jianhuazhao.asp
:
:These CEEG panels are much cheaper than Sharp, and obviously they are
aying a bulk-purchase price, which will be cheaper than the prices you
:see on typical places such as energymatters, who are trying to make a
rofit when they sell panels to end users.
:
:According to an active Whirlpool forum, they might be paying down to
:$800/panel or less.. (Not vouching for its authenticity though).
:
:> Even using a Sunny Boy 1100W inverter instead of a Fronius IG15 will set you
:> back around $2,360
:> http://www.energymatters.com.au/sma-sunny-boy-1100watt-grid-connect-i...
:
:I think that's a typical end user price with big mark up. If you buy
:these in bulk and at wholesale, they are much cheaper. How can
:energymatters make any money if they didn't add a mark up for themselves?
:
:> It is impossible for Nuenergy to provide and install anything approaching the
:> quality of the Sharp 1kW system (or even the Sunny Boy/Uni-Solar) for the
cost
:> of the $8K rebate plus RECS while still making a profit. It has to be a scam.
:
:You're correct that it is impossible for a company to supply something
:without making a profit. Especially with solar, since there is not much
:scope for "repeated business". Once you get your system, you might not
:deal with them again for a long time. Therefore they must be able to
:make a profit (or be a scam). Note that NuEnergy aren't the only ones, I
:just got pointed to: http://www.statesolarservices.com.au/index.php who
:have also started to offer a low cost (i.e almost free) solar system to
:those that have the rebate. They do use the lower cost Latronics
:inverter, and their panels are "Fullgreen Solar" (taken from their FAQ).
:
:There are either a great amount of scammers starting to appear, or due
:to a bulk-purchasing and the perceived rush for solar rebates, a number
f companies have been able to secure large amounts of panels and
:inverters at low cost. I also heard that Sunny boy will soon discontinue
:their 1100W inverter for a newer model, which supports the theory of
:cheaper bulk purchases, as they may be clearing them.
:
:Regarding NuEnergy as a company, I have heard (but not verified) that
:they have been in business for over 20 years, and that their new CEO has
:a decent track record. They're also members of the "Clean Energy
:Council", which apparently charges a fee every year for
:membership/approval, so they don't really strike me as a backyard
peration/scam.
:
:It's also worth mentioning that a lot of smaller installers are up in
:arms at the appearance of low cost PV systems (via a rebate) since they
:can't really compete with large companies and their large buying power.
:Understandably they are biased, and will spread all sorts of
:information, some of which may be untrue, but they are trying to protect
:their market of course. You wrote yourself that you hadn't looked at
:their site, but had been in discussion with someone, is he the person
:that suggested that they use "cheap chinese inverters of unknown
edigree"? (This was untrue).
:
espite all this, they might still be a scam, it's a tough call.. (Not
:everyone can afford a high grade system, certainly not my parents).
:
:Regards,
:
:Ross..

After what you have discovered I have to admit that it seems possible through
bulk purchase and using low cost Chinese panels it may be possible to get down
to a price approaching $2000 (or even less as for Nuenergy) out of pocket
expense for a 1kW system.

I did take a look at the free offer on Nuenergy site and there is one statement
which I think may be misleading. It says;

"Essentially, the householder simply agrees that the rebate will be paid to NU
Energy."

Now if Nuenergy gets the business they hope for it would not be unreasonable for
them to be installing say ten 1kW systems per week. It takes about 6 weeks
before the federal government comes good with the $8K rebate. If a purchaser has
a system installed for no money out of his pocket, as inferred by the Nuenergy
free offer statement, this means that the supplier (Nuenergy) must carry the $8K
debt on each system installed for up to 6 weeks. Now 10 x 6 = 60 systems, 60 x
$8K = $480,000. Therefore, Nuenergy would have to carry nearly half-a-million
dollars worth of overhead debt before starting to receive any $8K rebates back
from the government for the first week of installations. I doubt very much that
Nuenergy would be prepared to be so magnanimous. I would think that Nuenergy, as
do most other suppliers, would insist on the customer paying the actual out of
pocket expenses (say $8K) at completion of the installation so that the customer
is the one to carry the debt until the government pays the rebate back to him.

Of course I may be wrong (again), but a company carrying this sort of debt while
waiting for the government to pay the rebates sounds a bit far fetched to me.