zener diode question

"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:kkls7d$s9l$1@dont-email.me...
On 4/17/2013 1:25 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:kkl9ij$ncf$1@dont-email.me...
On 4/16/2013 9:23 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:


You want 12 volts just dig up an old AT type PC power supply. Now
there's something I am sure you have laying around.

That can be made to work, but it's rarely the slam-dunk that you imply.
Think about how the regulation works. You'll figger it out.


It is, however, a technique quite often used in commercial equipment.
Whilst I would agree that it is not the most elegant, it does not have
to be "made" to work - it just does. I'm not quite sure I follow what
you think the problem is with the regulation. A zener diode produces a
more or less constant voltage drop across its (reverse biased) junction.
Yes, I would agree that the drop does vary a little with the current
flowing, but the drop is substantially constant, certainly enough so, if
you are not going to draw a huge range of currents through it, and
definitely not a problem if the 'dropper' is going to be followed by a
'real' regulator, as it was going to be in Klem's application, if you
remember from - or even read - his original thread from a couple of
months back.

He was looking for a simple solution because he did not fully understand
some of the more elegant and complicated ones that were being put to
him. As he had some high power zeners of an appropriate voltage to hand,
the solution that I offered him fitted the bill in that it was simple,
he understood it, and above all, it worked, and apparently has been
doing so for a couple of months now.

So, if you want a simple 'dropper' that is largely current independant,
then I think the term "slam dunk" fits this technique remarkably well !

Arfa
I can only recommend that you read the first sentence that you quoted.
My input has nothing to do with the dropper. It's about trying to get 12V
out of a AT PC supply without thinking about what you're doing.
OK, my apologies. Somehow I missed that ... Probably coz I was laughing so
much at Phil going off on one again :)

Arfa
 
"Arfa Fuckwit TROLL Daily"


Oh dear, he's off and running again.

** Like some pathetic, sick animal.

Arfa needs putting down.

Then off to the knackery.



.... Phil
 
mike wrote:
On 4/17/2013 1:25 AM, Arfa Daily wrote:


"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:kkl9ij$ncf$1@dont-email.me...
On 4/16/2013 9:23 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:


You want 12 volts just dig up an old AT type PC power supply. Now
there's something I am sure you have laying around.

That can be made to work, but it's rarely the slam-dunk that you imply.
Think about how the regulation works. You'll figger it out.


It is, however, a technique quite often used in commercial equipment.
Whilst I would agree that it is not the most elegant, it does not have
to be "made" to work - it just does. I'm not quite sure I follow what
you think the problem is with the regulation. A zener diode produces a
more or less constant voltage drop across its (reverse biased) junction.
Yes, I would agree that the drop does vary a little with the current
flowing, but the drop is substantially constant, certainly enough so, if
you are not going to draw a huge range of currents through it, and
definitely not a problem if the 'dropper' is going to be followed by a
'real' regulator, as it was going to be in Klem's application, if you
remember from - or even read - his original thread from a couple of
months back.

He was looking for a simple solution because he did not fully understand
some of the more elegant and complicated ones that were being put to
him. As he had some high power zeners of an appropriate voltage to hand,
the solution that I offered him fitted the bill in that it was simple,
he understood it, and above all, it worked, and apparently has been
doing so for a couple of months now.

So, if you want a simple 'dropper' that is largely current independant,
then I think the term "slam dunk" fits this technique remarkably well !

Arfa
I can only recommend that you read the first sentence that you quoted.
My input has nothing to do with the dropper. It's about trying to get 12V
out of a AT PC supply without thinking about what you're doing.

You need to read what the OP is doing, before you condemn someone
else.
 
Wild_Bill wrote:
Years ago I found the easiest method for me to create schematics was using a
Paint (bmp) drawing program.

There may be some sources for component symbols now, but I ended up making
my own symbols, which is time consuming but it goes more quickly after
drawing about a dozen symbols.

The bmp files saved as monochrome aren't excessively large like they tend to
be in color. Angled lines tend to be a bit rough, but creating a diode, for
example, is easily done with the drawing board zoomed-in to 200-400%.

I never found the Paint program to be of much use for anything else, but
black/white schematics are very easy to interpret.

LTSpice/Switchercad is free from Linear.com There are several
other free Cad programs for drawing schematics. Switchercad lets you
save a schematic as a .asc text file that can be posted on text only
newsgroups. You simply copy the code, paste it into a text editor and
save it with a .asc extension.

LTspice IV is the current version, and the links are on the home
page: http://www.linear.com

There is a Yahoo group for this free software, as well.
 
jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:
"Years ago I found the easiest method for me to create schematics was using a
Paint (bmp) drawing program. "

I never figured out how to copy and paste in that damn thing. Same with Paintshop Pro. I didn't even try with Adobe, screw it.

It's no different than anything else. Highlight the desired area.
Right click. Select 'COPY' Open the program you want to paste to.
Right click & select 'PASTE'. The material is copied to and from the
'Clipboard'.
 
Arfa Daily wrote:
Oh dear, he's off and running again. Go on Philip, scoot on back to the vet
and tell him that you're hearing the voices and seeing the pretty lights
again. Perhaps he will be able to up the level of your horse tranquillizer
pills for a few days until you're suitably subdued ... :)

He's too ignorant to even consider the poor contact for a TO-3 with
two tiny screws on the ends, VS a 1/4x20 stud which can be torqued down
to give much better heat transfer.
 
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:6jmbt.1547$Tr3.360@fx13.fr7...
snip

He's clamping the supply to keep it just under detonation level.

He is not doing any clamping with his zener arrangement. It is a simple
constant voltage series dropper ...

A TL431 with external transistor would do that more accurately - better yet
adjustably.

But it probably wont make an undersized HS seem any bigger.
 
Heh.. I bought a used Hitachi digital tablet years ago, but never got around
to trying it out, it probably needs a pentium 1 computer (probably not more
recent than that).

I was just looking at Fujitsu Lifebook notebook comuter/tablet/notebooks,
and it seems thay have a digitizer app built in (touch screen and stylus).

I knew those commercial drawing programs and I wouldn't get along.. 6000
features and almost impossible to create something simple.

With hack-spit MS Paint, there are two tool symbols at the top of the left
side. They look like a free-hand outline and a rectangular outline. I
generally just used the rectangular one, and it's clik-drag-release to
create an outline around what's to be copied.
Right clik (4-way arrow also allows relocation) choose Copy, then select
Paste, and the copied item will appear at the top left corner of the drawing
board, which can then be dragged elsewhere.. and Paste can be repeated as
many times as desired without needing to Copy again.

The two tools at the bottom of the left side are for whether the user wants
to lay a image on top of an existing one with the new one appearing to be
see-thru, so it just becomes/blends in, to be another feature of the
original one.
That tool is the bottom one.. I never found a use for the one above it.

But yeah, I'd rather just sketch something out to.. it's just complicated to
send a sketch.
Software developers don't get it.. it's as if they've never used pencil and
paper.

I never believed that developing more technology to accomplish something
simple was sensible.
But, there are some new small hand-held cordless document scanners and
software for stitching the scanned images together. A friend showed me one
he bought that's about the size of a short cigar.. internal battery and
memory, USB port to transfer to PC.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............



<jurb6006@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:26e3f2cd-78ef-46a2-b1e8-036e3aaebd7e@googlegroups.com...
"Years ago I found the easiest method for me to create schematics was
using a
Paint (bmp) drawing program. "

I never figured out how to copy and paste in that damn thing. Same with
Paintshop Pro. I didn't even try with Adobe, screw it.
 
"klem kedidelhopper" <captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1684af12-b28e-40f3-af31-a7ad0e9a73c6@b10g2000vbu.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 17, 4:13 am, "Arfa Daily" <arfa.da...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
"Phil Allison" <phi...@tpg.com.au> wrote in message

news:at6e9mFo62mU1@mid.individual.net...











"Arfa Daily"
"Phil Allison"
"Arfa Daily"

The correct way to mount them is exactly the same as you would a TO3
transistor. That is with a mica washer between the flat face of the
stud end and the heatsink, and a plastic top hat washer on the other
side of the heatsink, with the hole being large enough to
accommodate
the narrow part of the insulator. I have mounted stud diodes like
this
many times, and never had a problem.

** A TO3 device has a large surface area.

A DO4 stud device has almost none unless you include the thread.

So it is blindingly obvious that for best heatsinking, you screw them
into a threaded hole.

The heatsink may then need to be insulated from other metal work.

This is how all high power stud diodes zeners must be mounted, if you
wish to get anything like the maker's power ratings.

Fuck head.

Many extremely high power computer linear power supplies that I worked
on
some years ago, would disagree with you.

** No they wouldn't.

You fucking, pig ignorant moron.

" Ye canne change the laws of ffysiks... "

... Phil

Aw, Philip. And there was me thinking that the vet had finally gotten
your
meds just about right ... !

Never mind. We all know that it is actually you who is the fucking pig
ignorant moron, not just for what an offensive twat you are, but also
because despite knowing everything there could ever be to know, you have
actually, apparently, learnt nothing in your half arsed life. Sad ...
:)

Arfa

While I would have to agree with Phil's earlier statement that it
would be ideal to simply screw the diodes into threaded holes on the
heat sink, they are electrically in series, so that is not possible.
Why not use 2 CPU coolers? - they're surpisingly available as surplus. Many
new CPUs come with a leaflet stating that an approved cooler must be used to
maintain the warranty - so most of the time, the cooler is included in an
upgrade.

Recently I scrounged a job lot of surplus PC junk on Freecycle - it included
a fair sized bag of CPU coolers.
 
"Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:8LGdnQ7rYaJuVPDMnZ2dnUVZ_vKdnZ2d@earthlink.com...
Ian Field wrote:

klem kedidelhopper wrote:

Yes this is related to my post of several months ago. I employed
Arfa's suggestion of using two of my 6.8V 10 watt zeners in series to
make a 13.6 V diode. And from my previous discussion this was then
put in series with the rectified 24VAC, (39VDC) to drop the voltage to
the input of my 12V regulator to a safer level. These two diodes were
mounted with insulators and silicone grease on a large old black
aluminum heat sink that I pulled out of a 1960's Delco automobile
radio. With the diodes in the circuit the voltage to the input of the
regulator was 19VDC, and under full load it was 16.5VDC, which is just
about where I wanted it to be. The only problem is that the diodes as
well as the heat sink were getting extremely hot when the regulator
was fully loaded, (1.0 Amp).

Something there doesn't ring true - at full load, your load is forcing
down
the voltage and easing below the zener's conduction voltage.

The zeners should run cooler when you draw full load!


Read what you replied to. The Zeners are in series, not shunt so you
have it backwards. The current & heat go up with increased loading.
That became clear in another part of the thread - I never imagined anyone
would do it that way!
 
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:ummbt.4850$Wa2.3336@fx04.fr7...
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:20jbt.6020$8L4.1433@fx29.fr7...


"klem kedidelhopper" <captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:0599c63a-bc72-457f-85ee-71b25a7fe71c@r4g2000vbf.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 16, 2:12 am, jurb6...@gmail.com wrote:
My question is why use shunt regulation in the first place.

Also true about the "pass" transistor, any transistor of suitable
ratings will work and most likely help solve any thermal problems. It
doesn't even matter if it is NPN or PNP. Works both ways.

The only reason to use shunt regulation is if you expect spikes which
should be clamped. This can happen in an automotive application for
example by just having loose or dirty battery cables, or any electrical
fittings between the alternator (generator) and the load. This porblem
is compunded these days by the fact that a modern fuel injected car
with multiple coils (a coil pack)pulls a hell of alot of current to
just run. Have any idea what a heated O2 sensor pulls ? what's more a
car might have three or four of them. That is on top of an injector for
every cylider maybe more.

The thing is I am am having a hard time imagining another situation
where such a regulation scheme would be appropriate. If it's automotive
then it is, but that has not been revealed.

Yes this is related to my post of several months ago. I employed
Arfa's suggestion of using two of my 6.8V 10 watt zeners in series to
make a 13.6 V diode. And from my previous discussion this was then
put in series with the rectified 24VAC, (39VDC) to drop the voltage to
the input of my 12V regulator to a safer level. These two diodes were
mounted with insulators and silicone grease on a large old black
aluminum heat sink that I pulled out of a 1960's Delco automobile
radio. With the diodes in the circuit the voltage to the input of the
regulator was 19VDC, and under full load it was 16.5VDC, which is just
about where I wanted it to be. The only problem is that the diodes as
well as the heat sink were getting extremely hot when the regulator
was fully loaded, (1.0Amp).

Something there doesn't ring true - at full load, your load is forcing
down the voltage and easing below the zener's conduction voltage.

The zeners should run cooler when you draw full load!


No, they are in series with the load to act as a constant voltage dropper,
so they pass the full load current. The drop across them is slightly
higher when they are passing a high current.
It never crossed my mind anyone would go that way about 'regulation'!
 
"mike" <ham789@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:kkl9ij$ncf$1@dont-email.me...
On 4/16/2013 9:23 PM, jurb6006@gmail.com wrote:


You want 12 volts just dig up an old AT type PC power supply. Now there's
something I am sure you have laying around.

That can be made to work, but it's rarely the slam-dunk that you imply.
Think about how the regulation works. You'll figger it out.

Indeed modifying an ATX PSU isn't trivial, Elektor published a project to
use one for halogen LVL, I think the custom wound transformer took up a
whole month's installement.

The nearest you get to a "slam-dunk" requires fully loading the 3.3 & 5V
outputs and hope the 12V rail can handle the required 1A.

A slightly easier prposition is the PSU board from something like a DVD or
PVR, the regulation is usually only on a 3.3 or 5V rail so its sense
resistors have to be recalculated for 12V and moved to the 12V rail.
 
"klem kedidelhopper" <captainvideo462009@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:be2f7418-cd34-4319-8058-0d8f7b639249@g5g2000pbp.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 17, 11:14 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

Oh dear, he's off and running again. Go on Philip, scoot on back to the
vet
and tell him that you're hearing the voices and seeing the pretty
lights
again. Perhaps he will be able to up the level of your horse
tranquillizer
pills for a few days until you're suitably subdued ... :)

He's too ignorant to even consider the poor contact for a TO-3 with
two tiny screws on the ends, VS a 1/4x20 stud which can be torqued down
to give much better heat transfer.

I thought that I mentioned though that isolating the heat sink was not
an option. I think I can explain this a little better. The fins of the
heat sink are spaced about .50 inch apart. Between the fins are large
aluminum blocks I fashioned which increase the surface mating area.
These blocks are then mounted to two back to back pieces of .125 inch
aluminum
Using a pair of CPU coolers would give isolation - some have clip on fans,
so the top mounting flange is available with 4 holes for mounting.
 
On Apr 17, 11:14 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net>
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

Oh dear, he's off and running again. Go on Philip, scoot on back to the vet
and tell him that you're hearing the voices and seeing the pretty lights
again. Perhaps he will be able to up the level of your horse tranquillizer
pills for a few days until you're suitably subdued ...    :)

   He's too ignorant to even consider the poor contact for a TO-3 with
two tiny screws on the ends, VS a 1/4x20 stud which can be torqued down
to give much better heat transfer.
I thought that I mentioned though that isolating the heat sink was not
an option. I think I can explain this a little better. The fins of the
heat sink are spaced about .50 inch apart. Between the fins are large
aluminum blocks I fashioned which increase the surface mating area.
These blocks are then mounted to two back to back pieces of .125 inch
aluminum each having a surface area of about 12 square inches. This
large contact area and equivalent thick piece of aluminum then bolts
to the chassis, It is these two pieces of stock which are the
"middle" of the sandwich, so to speak. The steel chassis also aids
with sinking some of the heat as well. Also as previously mentioned
both diodes are mounted on the heat sink so they must be isolated from
each other. There is also a thin coating of silicone grease on every
mating surface. One alternative to that would have been to use one
reverse polarity diode, (which I don't have), but then I would still
have to "float" the heat sink and it would be very impractical to try
to hang all this extra aluminum off the heat sink and come up with a
useable mounting method too. So this seemed like the best arrangement.
Lenny
 
klem kedidelhopper wrote:
On Apr 17, 11:14 am, "Michael A. Terrell" <mike.terr...@earthlink.net
wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

Oh dear, he's off and running again. Go on Philip, scoot on back to the vet
and tell him that you're hearing the voices and seeing the pretty lights
again. Perhaps he will be able to up the level of your horse tranquillizer
pills for a few days until you're suitably subdued ... :)

He's too ignorant to even consider the poor contact for a TO-3 with
two tiny screws on the ends, VS a 1/4x20 stud which can be torqued down
to give much better heat transfer.

I thought that I mentioned though that isolating the heat sink was not
an option. I think I can explain this a little better. The fins of the
heat sink are spaced about .50 inch apart. Between the fins are large
aluminum blocks I fashioned which increase the surface mating area.
These blocks are then mounted to two back to back pieces of .125 inch
aluminum each having a surface area of about 12 square inches. This
large contact area and equivalent thick piece of aluminum then bolts
to the chassis, It is these two pieces of stock which are the
"middle" of the sandwich, so to speak. The steel chassis also aids
with sinking some of the heat as well. Also as previously mentioned
both diodes are mounted on the heat sink so they must be isolated from
each other. There is also a thin coating of silicone grease on every
mating surface. One alternative to that would have been to use one
reverse polarity diode, (which I don't have), but then I would still
have to "float" the heat sink and it would be very impractical to try
to hang all this extra aluminum off the heat sink and come up with a
useable mounting method too. So this seemed like the best arrangement.

You need near mirror finish to get ideal heat transfer between those
pieces of aluminum.


The stud mount package with the proper mica insulators & washers can
be torqued a lot tighter than TO-3 packages.
 
Ian Field wrote:
Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Read what you replied to. The Zeners are in series, not shunt so you
have it backwards. The current & heat go up with increased loading.

That became clear in another part of the thread - I never imagined anyone
would do it that way!

That way, or strings of rectifiers have both been used in the past
when the transformer voltage was a little too high.
 
Ian Field wrote:
It never crossed my mind anyone would go that way about 'regulation'!

It's not regulation, it's supply voltage reduction.
 
Arfa Daily wrote:

snip


He's clamping the supply to keep it just under detonation level.


He is not doing any clamping with his zener arrangement. It is a simple
constant voltage series dropper ...

Arfa
No matter, still in detonation mode.

Jamie
 
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:tHzbt.5015$fv.1909@fx15.fr7...
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:6jmbt.1547$Tr3.360@fx13.fr7...

snip

He's clamping the supply to keep it just under detonation level.

He is not doing any clamping with his zener arrangement. It is a simple
constant voltage series dropper ...


A TL431 with external transistor would do that more accurately - better
yet adjustably.

Agreed, and such a scheme was previously suggested

But it probably wont make an undersized HS seem any bigger.
True

Arfa
 
"Jamie" <jamie_ka1lpa_not_valid_after_ka1lpa_@charter.net> wrote in message
news:1SEbt.9422$CA4.7099@newsfe14.iad...
Arfa Daily wrote:


snip


He's clamping the supply to keep it just under detonation level.


He is not doing any clamping with his zener arrangement. It is a simple
constant voltage series dropper ...

Arfa

No matter, still in detonation mode.

Jamie
Why ... ?

Arfa
 

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