You know you're getting old....

[Jim Thompson]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:00:39 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news:8r7220h4it8q411htj742o9rt1a0fukt56@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):
[snip]
Hell, can't you make $10/hr flipping burgers?

...Jim Thompson



Exactly, except McDonalds probably commands more than $10/hr nowadays. The
question becomes, why should we spend thousands of dollars for a BA in EE
just to work a difficult job where we make less than if flipping burgers?
:\

Mark, You seem to be talking in nonsensical circles. *Where* is it
you can get an EE degree and only command $10/hour?

Starting salaries are indeed down slightly due to the economy...

"The average offer to electrical engineering graduates has fallen 3.4
percent to $50,123. According to the report, the average offer to
computer science grads is below $50,000 for the first time since the
fall of 2000. At this point, CS grads are averaging $49,596, a 5.9
percent drop from last year at this time. Computer engineering remains
among the top-paid engineering disciplines, despite a 4.3 percent
decrease in the average starting salary offer, now at $51,587."

$50,000/year => $24/hour

And that's an *average*. Graduates of better schools get better
starting salaries.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[Mark J.]

In news:03a220luf3bmoiaq360cv4bk7dr1mbjtoo@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 12:00:39 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news:8r7220h4it8q411htj742o9rt1a0fukt56@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):
[snip]
Hell, can't you make $10/hr flipping burgers?

...Jim Thompson


Exactly, except McDonalds probably commands more than $10/hr nowadays.
The question becomes, why should we spend thousands of dollars for a
BA in EE just to work a difficult job where we make less than if
flipping burgers? :\



Mark, You seem to be talking in nonsensical circles. *Where* is it
you can get an EE degree and only command $10/hour?

Starting salaries are indeed down slightly due to the economy...

"The average offer to electrical engineering graduates has fallen 3.4
percent to $50,123. According to the report, the average offer to
computer science grads is below $50,000 for the first time since the
fall of 2000. At this point, CS grads are averaging $49,596, a 5.9
percent drop from last year at this time. Computer engineering remains
among the top-paid engineering disciplines, despite a 4.3 percent
decrease in the average starting salary offer, now at $51,587."

$50,000/year => $24/hour

And that's an *average*. Graduates of better schools get better
starting salaries.

...Jim Thompson

Indeed, this is true, I should have been more accurate in my choice of
wording. By "BA in EE" I meant "BS in EE."

I've all but given up on the job market, so I haven't been following the
availability as of late, it's depressing. I just checked several online
services to see what I could find to illustrate, but there are little
electronics-related positions open near me. Not like I'd be qualified
anyways. But those that are open, are specialty positions which do command a
large salary, and all want multiple EE degrees and/or years of experience.
That would be fine, if you happen to have devoted a decade of your life and
tens of thousands of dollars to getting there. I guess I just consider
electronics an interesting hobby.

I was "offered" what I think was a military journeyman position once, which
did include a very large salary. The job was to repair radar equipment on
ships. Very dangerous work, hundreds of feet up, damaging microwave energy,
high voltages, etc. To this day, I don't know if it was legit or just a ploy
to get another recruit enlisted. But I passed on it none-the-less.

I do clearly recall several times seeing positions open for electronics
service/repair/design where they were asking for the ability to comprehend
and administer electronic circuts (isn't that an EE?), and offering $10/hr.
The electronics service end of things seems to pay especially low, such as
repairshops. You still have to know what you're doing though. Once in
highschool I tried applying at a few in town, but nobody would give me a
chance, despite taking all three years of electronics offered. Also I've
seen industrial panel wiring for $9.50/hr and even applied for that
position, but was beat to it, likely by someone with a BS in EE. At my old
engineering job, I worked with an EE who was doing PLC engineering and made
$15/hr. I made $13/hr installing and configuring custom workstations to
control the custom PLC's. The president of the company however, once bought
$250,000 worth of paintings (and a mural) to hang up in the office.
Apparently he was a highschool grad.

Regards,
Mark

 

[Louis Bybee]

"Keith R. Williams" <krw@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:MPG.1a8ad40524c2cee3989bb6@enews.newsguy.com...

In article <h90220539pr26uu61lrj50574g0p3bgntn@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:


Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor
for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.


OMG, are we in agreement?



Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

--
Keith

For an interesting experiment in human nature, and one guaranteed to
aggravate, :-] at just the right moment, you'll know when that is, look at
someone with a furrowed brow, and speak in a slightly "Freddie the Chainsaw"
maniacal voice with a deep low volume tone saying, " I hope you get exactly
what you deserve"! The amusing thing is that most everyone must feel they
are getting more than they deserve as most seem to react rather negatively
to the above exercise. :-]

Louis--
*********************************************
Remove the two fish in address to respond

 

[Stephen J. Rush]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:47:33 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:27:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:


Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.


OMG, are we in agreement?



Are design engineers here claiming low pay?


YES! Again... there was talk among the workers..... of pay!

The fucking shelf stockers at the store do NOT deserve higher pay
than my technicians do, but guess what...???

And the sales types manage to come out ahead of everyone else. The
uppermost stratum is composed of people most skilled at selling
_themselves_, without regard for whatever else they may be selling.
They wind up writing corporate and government policy.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:35:34 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

In news:at4220dha6g9dpjku0a1s1d54bg99drvum@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:


Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor
for more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.


OMG, are we in agreement?



Don't get yer bloomers in a bunch.



Heh. I thought it was "Skivies."


Skivies fit rather tightly, whereas "bloomers" can bunch up really

badly. I know from a past life in the 20's. :]

 

[John Fields]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:36:32 -0600, Stephen J. Rush <steverush@cox.net>
wrote:

And the sales types manage to come out ahead of everyone else. The
uppermost stratum is composed of people most skilled at selling
_themselves_, without regard for whatever else they may be selling.
They wind up writing corporate and government policy.

---
That's because, from birth, they have been taught that they are superior
beings and have been supplied with, and taught how to use, the tools
which will assure their ascendancies into positions of leadership.

Vis a vis, if you have the slightest doubt about the correctness of your
position when confronting a foe, you'll lose. You'll have to, since
your foe will want to vanquish you and, sensing your guilt, will put you
in a position from which you can't recover. Goodbye... Even if you
_knew_ were right and you managed to let yourself get talked out of it,
you lose.

--
John Fields

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 09:38:29 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

Hell, can't you make $10/hr flipping burgers?


Yes. In Cinti., they advertise at $12.50 / hr at Wendy's as the

respondents, if any number only around 50, and they are all college
students.

In SD CA it goes for min wage, and 250 hispanics apply for it.

We aren't in China, so I want a goddamned wage that IS commensurate
with my skill set, not some asshole telling me how "We could do it
cheaper in China." Hell it takes six iterations for them to get an HV
transformer right such that it won't fail, and those were the good
transformer makers! This country needs help when a sit on his ass,
PC set up tech level twit is called an admin, and makes more than an
engineer that actually DOES work every day, every hour.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 10:23:57 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

$50,000/year => $24/hour

And that's an *average*. Graduates of better schools get better
starting salaries.


That's silly. A person can take a simple MSCE course and they start

between 60k and 80k. The good ones, that is. Screw being a computer
engineer, the admin jobs are

Hell computer consultant helpers get $90 an hour around here, while
the consultant gets $175 an hour.

Engineers have been absolutely screwed over the years, if one weighs
skill set over pay. We are far more skilled than ANY IT admin, yet
those lame, coffee and doughnuts bastards get way more, and get on the
"good" side of the executive branch of a given company as well.

Just like I could never charge a guy $100 for working on his TV,
when the problem was a blown fuse, I can't see paying some lame fuck
"admin" huge bucks for sitting on his ass over 50% of the time.

 

[Harry Conover]

Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message news:<h90220539pr26uu61lrj50574g0p3bgntn@4ax.com>...

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:


Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.


OMG, are we in agreement?



Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Jim, it depends on if you ask those few still employed design
engineers or those who've already lost their income when their jobs
were outsourced to France, India, or China.

Harry C.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:36:32 -0600, Stephen J. Rush
<steverush@cox.net> Gave us:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:47:33 -0800, DarkMatter
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:27:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:


Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.


OMG, are we in agreement?



Are design engineers here claiming low pay?


YES! Again... there was talk among the workers..... of pay!

The fucking shelf stockers at the store do NOT deserve higher pay
than my technicians do, but guess what...???

And the sales types manage to come out ahead of everyone else. The
uppermost stratum is composed of people most skilled at selling
_themselves_, without regard for whatever else they may be selling.
They wind up writing corporate and government policy.

Send me to Mars. I'll gladly go. Some would be glad to see me go.

I don't care if I don't make it back because of the radiation, I
just want to go.

 

[Mark J.]

In news:qvm320l0feck1uks3q2a4kt6c81ajskpnc@4ax.com (DarkMatter):

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 18:36:32 -0600, Stephen J. Rush
steverush@cox.net> Gave us:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:47:33 -0800, DarkMatter
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:27:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:


Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because
the low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual
labor for more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never
thought as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware
would be making less than the usually total retards using it.
They deserve less, we deserve more.


OMG, are we in agreement?



Are design engineers here claiming low pay?


YES! Again... there was talk among the workers..... of pay!

The fucking shelf stockers at the store do NOT deserve higher pay
than my technicians do, but guess what...???

And the sales types manage to come out ahead of everyone else. The
uppermost stratum is composed of people most skilled at selling
_themselves_, without regard for whatever else they may be selling.
They wind up writing corporate and government policy.


Send me to Mars. I'll gladly go. Some would be glad to see me go.

I don't care if I don't make it back because of the radiation, I
just want to go.

Stand in line!

Just hopefully not my line.

 

[Rich Grise]

And do you actually _have_ this "BS in EE" that you're talking about, or
just making excuses for not bothering to _get_ a "BS in EE"?

Plus, I guess it depends on how hungry you are. I've done $8.25/hr assembly
work when that was all the work there was. Well, all the work I was suited
for in my condition at the time. %-}

But I hung in there and kept learning stuff, and kind of worked my way
up. Now I'm so important and I do so much stuff that I don't even _have_
a job title! ;-)

Back on-topic: I was about 7 or 8 when the press releases came out on the
first transistor. My dad, salesman and finagler that he was, got his hands
on a couple of military tech manuals that explained the physics of how
transistors work in terms that even a soldier (or an 8-year-old whiz kid)
could grasp.

Which might have something to do with it: if you don't love it, it's not
for you. If all you're looking for is easy money, take up court reporting.
;-)

Good Luck!
Rich

"Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote in message
news:1aSdnRoqntkcwLzd4p2dnA@buckeye-express.com...

Indeed, this is true, I should have been more accurate in my choice of
wording. By "BA in EE" I meant "BS in EE."

I've all but given up on the job market, so I haven't been following the
availability as of late, it's depressing. I just checked several online
services to see what I could find to illustrate, but there are little
electronics-related positions open near me. Not like I'd be qualified
anyways. But those that are open, are specialty positions which do command
a
large salary, and all want multiple EE degrees and/or years of experience.
That would be fine, if you happen to have devoted a decade of your life
and
tens of thousands of dollars to getting there. I guess I just consider
electronics an interesting hobby.

I was "offered" what I think was a military journeyman position once,
which
did include a very large salary. The job was to repair radar equipment on
ships. Very dangerous work, hundreds of feet up, damaging microwave
energy,
high voltages, etc. To this day, I don't know if it was legit or just a
ploy
to get another recruit enlisted. But I passed on it none-the-less.

I do clearly recall several times seeing positions open for electronics
service/repair/design where they were asking for the ability to comprehend
and administer electronic circuts (isn't that an EE?), and offering
$10/hr.
The electronics service end of things seems to pay especially low, such as
repairshops. You still have to know what you're doing though. Once in
highschool I tried applying at a few in town, but nobody would give me a
chance, despite taking all three years of electronics offered. Also I've
seen industrial panel wiring for $9.50/hr and even applied for that
position, but was beat to it, likely by someone with a BS in EE. At my old
engineering job, I worked with an EE who was doing PLC engineering and
made
$15/hr. I made $13/hr installing and configuring custom workstations to
control the custom PLC's. The president of the company however, once
bought
$250,000 worth of paintings (and a mural) to hang up in the office.
Apparently he was a highschool grad.

Regards,
Mark

 

[Rich Grise]

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:6r63201dcu606b9kbm892qn6stp9bh89r8@4ax.com...

We aren't in China, so I want a goddamned wage that IS commensurate
with my skill set, ...

Then go get one, rather than sitting and whining about how hard things are.

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:34:58 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net>
wrote:

And do you actually _have_ this "BS in EE" that you're talking about, or
just making excuses for not bothering to _get_ a "BS in EE"?

Plus, I guess it depends on how hungry you are. I've done $8.25/hr assembly
work when that was all the work there was. Well, all the work I was suited
for in my condition at the time. %-}

[snip]

Yep, When I was whining about needing money one summer at about age
16, my father (still quite the sage even now) said to me, "Anything
keeping you from pumping gas?" So I worked the summer pumping gas and
learning how to take cars apart, for $1 an hour.

It was 42 years ago, but my starting pay at Motorola was $6600/year.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 01:37:58 GMT, "Rich Grise" <null@example.net> Gave
us:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:6r63201dcu606b9kbm892qn6stp9bh89r8@4ax.com...
We aren't in China, so I want a goddamned wage that IS commensurate
with my skill set, ...

Then go get one, rather than sitting and whining about how hard things are.

Don't be an idiot! Too late!

 

[Jim Weir]

Two things...

One, I went to my 40th high school reunion a few years ago. Those of us that
busted our asses to get a degree were certainly in the top quartile of the
moneymakers of that group, but the one goofoff that went straight into the
plumbing trade out of high school was the one driving the Mercedes and living in
the penthouse. I asked him how he managed to make so much money. He said that
if he bought a pipe for a dollar and sold it for two dollars he was happy with
his 1% profit. Do you think I had the cojones to tell him he was wrong? Hell,
HE was the one driving the Mercedes.

Two, I don't care if you top post or not, but if you bottom post and don't snip,
I go right by you.

Jim

 

[Jim Weir]

Plutocrat. I went to work in '58 fixing TVs for 65 cents an hour. In '67
straight out of college I was the top graduate working for Teledyne at
$8400/annum.

Jim



Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com>
shared these priceless pearls of wisdom:

->Yep, When I was whining about needing money one summer at about age
->16, my father (still quite the sage even now) said to me, "Anything
->keeping you from pumping gas?" So I worked the summer pumping gas and
->learning how to take cars apart, for $1 an hour.
->
->It was 42 years ago, but my starting pay at Motorola was $6600/year.
->
-> ...Jim Thompson

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Jim Weir <jim@rst-engr.com> wrote
(in <mpfa205qie0oq4fgtkeagk9emnglquatvs@4ax.com&gt about 'You know you're
getting old....', on Sat, 7 Feb 2004:

He said that if he bought a pipe for a dollar and
sold it for two dollars he was happy with his 1% profit.

That's a very old story.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Jim Thompson]

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:44:02 -0800, Jim Weir <jim@rst-engr.com> wrote:

Two things...

One, I went to my 40th high school reunion a few years ago. Those of us that
busted our asses to get a degree were certainly in the top quartile of the
moneymakers of that group, but the one goofoff that went straight into the
plumbing trade out of high school was the one driving the Mercedes and living in
the penthouse. I asked him how he managed to make so much money. He said that
if he bought a pipe for a dollar and sold it for two dollars he was happy with
his 1% profit. Do you think I had the cojones to tell him he was wrong? Hell,
HE was the one driving the Mercedes.

Two, I don't care if you top post or not, but if you bottom post and don't snip,
I go right by you.

Jim

The richest member of my HS class (1958) was Bill Corns... he went
straight to work for his father hauling commercial garbage.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 15:00:02 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

On Sat, 07 Feb 2004 11:44:02 -0800, Jim Weir <jim@rst-engr.com> wrote:


Two things...

One, I went to my 40th high school reunion a few years ago. Those of us that
busted our asses to get a degree were certainly in the top quartile of the
moneymakers of that group, but the one goofoff that went straight into the
plumbing trade out of high school was the one driving the Mercedes and living in
the penthouse. I asked him how he managed to make so much money. He said that
if he bought a pipe for a dollar and sold it for two dollars he was happy with
his 1% profit. Do you think I had the cojones to tell him he was wrong? Hell,
HE was the one driving the Mercedes.

Two, I don't care if you top post or not, but if you bottom post and don't snip,
I go right by you.

Jim

The richest member of my HS class (1958) was Bill Corns... he went
straight to work for his father hauling commercial garbage.

Don't forget to check out alt.binaries.sounds.78rpm-era for many of
the songs he listens to. ;-]