You know you're getting old....

DarkMatter · Feb 2, 2004

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:17:31 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> Gave us:

Well, it's a lot better than never being crazy at all. Being
occasionally crazy is a definite asset in this business; pretending to
be crazy can be even better.

I'm the <neck twitch> sanest person <neck twitch>... in the whole
lab!

John Larkin · Feb 2, 2004

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:12:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com>
wrote:

Hmm, at 24, I thought I was getting old! By the looks of things, I must be
one of the younger people that frequents the electronics NG's?

Electronics seems increasingly to be a skill of older people, unless
you consider operating an mp3 player to be 'electronics'. You should
see the resumes I get! If I wanted to hire a few hundred network
administrators and Perl programmers, there'd be no problem.

John

Jim Thompson · Feb 2, 2004

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 08:20:21 -0800, John Larkin
<jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote:

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:12:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:

Hmm, at 24, I thought I was getting old! By the looks of things, I must be
one of the younger people that frequents the electronics NG's?

Electronics seems increasingly to be a skill of older people, unless
you consider operating an mp3 player to be 'electronics'. You should
see the resumes I get! If I wanted to hire a few hundred network
administrators and Perl programmers, there'd be no problem.

John

I get tons of resumes from kids straight out of school, even some
offering to work for free "to learn". But I can't afford the time to
teach them.

Then there's the ads to sub-contract my engineering tasks to India :-(

Hell will freeze over first.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Larkin · Feb 2, 2004

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 07:58:11 +0000, John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highlandSNIP
techTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote (in <12oq10l92ut7knn7df92mprr44m7v4m01n@
4ax.com&gt about 'You know you're getting old....', on Sun, 1 Feb 2004:

No, he's here for the abuse.

alt.binaries.unlikely.schematics.electronics?

alt.binaries.unruly.schematics.envious

John

Jeff · Feb 2, 2004

"John Larkin" <jjlarkin@highlandSNIPtechTHISnologyPLEASE.com> wrote in
message news:hcqs10tivv5mcnu8n3ng9giupl2ojtei5l@4ax.com...

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 07:12:17 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com
wrote:

Hmm, at 24, I thought I was getting old! By the looks of things, I must
be
one of the younger people that frequents the electronics NG's?

Electronics seems increasingly to be a skill of older people,

I've noticed this also. I think it has a little to do with electronics being
such a big and complex subject that it needs several years for someone to
really get a good grasp of it. I mostly taught my self electricity, and then
electronics, starting at the age of about 3. Another problems is the schools
tend to only teach theory (engineering), or practical (technicians),
generally not both. We tried to change this at the university I teach a
couple of labs at, by showing 2nd year engineering students how to design
much more complex circuits from simple ones, how to use data sheets and
search for information, how to layout a prototype (mostly SMT) PCB with a
sharpie magic marker, and then with cad software, and then etch and populate
the boards, trouble shooting, etc. The lab was well liked, but it was only 1
semester long, which was way too short for the students very limited
knowledge at that time. We eventually gave up with this lab after a few
years due to many issues (one of the biggest was the possibility (university
politics) of flux fumes causing problems - which was not even an issue with
the fume extractors we were using). Most BEng graduates have no idea how to
properly use a soldering iron, why there are different types of capacitors,
how to make a PCB, etc these days. I believe it takes a good 8 to 20 years
of learning to grasp electronics to a high level for most people who are
capable. Say 3 - 5 years of schooling, then another 3-5 years of learning
practical stuff, then a couple more to learn some of the more advanced
things, etc. Then theirs the issue of ever evolving components, uC's and
uP's, which after a certain point, they become more of a new tool to use
then a new problem to know about.

unless
you consider operating an mp3 player to be 'electronics'. You should
see the resumes I get! If I wanted to hire a few hundred network
administrators and Perl programmers, there'd be no problem.

John

DarkMatter · Feb 3, 2004

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:46:42 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> Gave
us:

I've noticed this also. I think it has a little to do with electronics being
such a big and complex subject that it needs several years for someone to
really get a good grasp of it.

I don't think kids these days have the aptitude OR the work or
learning ethic to do it. One should also already have a heavy
interest in the field, not just "what makes good money".

I was building Jacob's ladders at ten, and fixing Selectrics.

A friend of mine told me that he has a tech that doesn't want to
make a proto assembly. He says "That's an assembler's job."

We think he might be one of those "zero bench experience" "techs"
that do so well in the tech course, but don't really have "the grasp".

Mark J. · Feb 3, 2004

In news:gi1u109fiifq97nrsfml5v87cieunefbcg@4ax.com (DarkMatter):

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 22:46:42 GMT, "Jeff" <levy_jeff@hotmail.com> Gave
us:

I've noticed this also. I think it has a little to do with electronics
being such a big and complex subject that it needs several years for
someone to really get a good grasp of it.

I don't think kids these days have the aptitude OR the work or
learning ethic to do it. One should also already have a heavy
interest in the field, not just "what makes good money".

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the low
pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for more than
rack my brain for less.

> [snipped]

DarkMatter · Feb 4, 2004

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the low
pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for more than
rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

Mark J. · Feb 4, 2004

In news

6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):

On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Jim Thompson · Feb 4, 2004

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Keith R. Williams · Feb 4, 2004

In article <h90220539pr26uu61lrj50574g0p3bgntn@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

--
Keith

Jim Thompson · Feb 4, 2004

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:04:22 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

In article <h90220539pr26uu61lrj50574g0p3bgntn@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

Of course not, but I'm reading an overtone here that says they're not
being paid commensurate with their skills.

However a quick check of recent salary surveys says *not*.

Median salaries of US$80K to US$100K would seem pretty good to me.

But maybe it's the "LED blinkers" who think they're worth more ;-)

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

DarkMatter · Feb 4, 2004

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Don't get yer bloomers in a bunch.

DarkMatter · Feb 4, 2004

On Wed, 04 Feb 2004 07:27:40 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> Gave us:

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor for
more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

YES! Again... there was talk among the workers..... of pay!

The fucking shelf stockers at the store do NOT deserve higher pay
than my technicians do, but guess what...???

Spehro Pefhany · Feb 4, 2004

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:04:22 -0500, the renowned Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

My late father-in-law (investment banker) did. But he didn't offer to
pay it back, I noticed. ;-)

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

Mark J. · Feb 4, 2004

In news:qc42201pogf9u6v96mubcer17t74n4u6bf@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 10:04:22 -0500, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> wrote:

In article <h90220539pr26uu61lrj50574g0p3bgntn@4ax.com>,
thegreatone@example.com says...
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because
the low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual
labor for more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never
thought as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware
would be making less than the usually total retards using it. They
deserve less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

Of course not, but I'm reading an overtone here that says they're not
being paid commensurate with their skills.

However a quick check of recent salary surveys says *not*.

Median salaries of US$80K to US$100K would seem pretty good to me.

But maybe it's the "LED blinkers" who think they're worth more ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Of course, when you're designing the blinker IC, that commands much more
than the guy who just puts the parts together...

I see want-ads all the time for electronics positions. They go something
like this:

Seeking gullible genius for complex electronics assembly/repair. $10/hr, no
benefits for first decade. BA required. Must be able to kiss ass well and
jump though many hoops without question. Don't call us, we'll call you...

Mark J. · Feb 4, 2004

In news:at4220dha6g9dpjku0a1s1d54bg99drvum@4ax.com (DarkMatter):

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 02:50:52 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

In news6u020ln3a72satu51nrt5v9t3i615khee@4ax.com (DarkMatter):
On Tue, 3 Feb 2004 00:37:13 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> Gave us:

Good money? Where?

Seriously, I won't go into an electronics career, simply because the
low pay vs. expenditure and difficulty. I'd rather do manual labor
for more than rack my brain for less.

Computers, and admin thereof... definitely better. I never thought
as a kid that they guys designing and making the hardware would be
making less than the usually total retards using it. They deserve
less, we deserve more.

OMG, are we in agreement?

Don't get yer bloomers in a bunch.

Heh. I thought it was "Skivies."

Jim Thompson · Feb 4, 2004

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:34:31 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news:qc42201pogf9u6v96mubcer17t74n4u6bf@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):
[snip]
Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

Of course not, but I'm reading an overtone here that says they're not
being paid commensurate with their skills.

However a quick check of recent salary surveys says *not*.

Median salaries of US$80K to US$100K would seem pretty good to me.

But maybe it's the "LED blinkers" who think they're worth more ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Of course, when you're designing the blinker IC, that commands much more
than the guy who just puts the parts together...

I see want-ads all the time for electronics positions. They go something
like this:

Seeking gullible genius for complex electronics assembly/repair. $10/hr, no
benefits for first decade. BA required. Must be able to kiss ass well and
jump though many hoops without question. Don't call us, we'll call you...

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Mark J. · Feb 4, 2004

In news:8r7220h4it8q411htj742o9rt1a0fukt56@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):

On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:34:31 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news:qc42201pogf9u6v96mubcer17t74n4u6bf@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):
[snip]
Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

Of course not, but I'm reading an overtone here that says they're not
being paid commensurate with their skills.

However a quick check of recent salary surveys says *not*.

Median salaries of US$80K to US$100K would seem pretty good to me.

But maybe it's the "LED blinkers" who think they're worth more ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Of course, when you're designing the blinker IC, that commands much
more than the guy who just puts the parts together...

I see want-ads all the time for electronics positions. They go
something like this:

Seeking gullible genius for complex electronics assembly/repair.
$10/hr, no benefits for first decade. BA required. Must be able to
kiss ass well and jump though many hoops without question. Don't call
us, we'll call you...

Maybe it's the fact that *many* companies require a degree in EE to be
considered for other than a technician position?

Hell, can't you make $10/hr flipping burgers?

...Jim Thompson

Exactly, except McDonalds probably commands more than $10/hr nowadays. The
question becomes, why should we spend thousands of dollars for a BA in EE
just to work a difficult job where we make less than if flipping burgers?
:\

Keith R. Williams · Feb 4, 2004

In article <-f-dnfEOUau8uLzdRVn-vw@buckeye-express.com>, "Mark J."
<127.0.0.1> says...

In news:8r7220h4it8q411htj742o9rt1a0fukt56@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):
On Wed, 4 Feb 2004 11:34:31 -0500, "Mark J." <127.0.0.1> wrote:

In news:qc42201pogf9u6v96mubcer17t74n4u6bf@4ax.com (Jim Thompson):
[snip]
Are design engineers here claiming low pay?

Does anyone claim that they're paid too much?

Of course not, but I'm reading an overtone here that says they're not
being paid commensurate with their skills.

However a quick check of recent salary surveys says *not*.

Median salaries of US$80K to US$100K would seem pretty good to me.

But maybe it's the "LED blinkers" who think they're worth more ;-)

...Jim Thompson

Of course, when you're designing the blinker IC, that commands much
more than the guy who just puts the parts together...

I see want-ads all the time for electronics positions. They go
something like this:

Seeking gullible genius for complex electronics assembly/repair.
$10/hr, no benefits for first decade. BA required. Must be able to
kiss ass well and jump though many hoops without question. Don't call
us, we'll call you...

Maybe it's the fact that *many* companies require a degree in EE to be
considered for other than a technician position?

Hell, can't you make $10/hr flipping burgers?

...Jim Thompson

Exactly, except McDonalds probably commands more than $10/hr nowadays. The
question becomes, why should we spend thousands of dollars for a BA in EE
just to work a difficult job where we make less than if flipping burgers?
:\

Where does an EE get paid less than $10/hr? Where does one get a BA in
EE? ...perhaps that's part of the problem?

--
Keith

>

You know you're getting old....

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