Would you file an FTC or FCC complaint for Android T-Mobile

[Danny D.]

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Without arguing why I feel that way, I just wish to ask here whether
the complaint rightly goes to the FTC or to the FCC?

On the one hand, it's (grossly) false and misleading advertising.
On the other hand, it's a communication device.

Whom would you file the complaint to?
How?

 

[Michael Black]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014, Danny D. wrote:

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Without arguing why I feel that way, I just wish to ask here whether
the complaint rightly goes to the FTC or to the FCC?

On the one hand, it's (grossly) false and misleading advertising.
On the other hand, it's a communication device.

Whom would you file the complaint to?
How?

It has nothing to do with the FCC.

The FCC deals with frequency allocation, and technical compliance. SO if
the phone was putting out unwanted signals, the FCC would be the place to
go.

But this is a consumer issue, there's no way it has anything to do with
the FCC.

Michael

 

[Phil Hobbs]

On 04/04/2014 01:27 PM, Michael Black wrote:

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014, Danny D. wrote:

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Without arguing why I feel that way, I just wish to ask here whether
the complaint rightly goes to the FTC or to the FCC?

On the one hand, it's (grossly) false and misleading advertising.
On the other hand, it's a communication device.

Whom would you file the complaint to?
How?

It has nothing to do with the FCC.

The FCC deals with frequency allocation, and technical compliance. SO
if the phone was putting out unwanted signals, the FCC would be the
place to go.

But this is a consumer issue, there's no way it has anything to do with
the FCC.

Michael

Consumer complaints can start at the state AG's office.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net

 

[dave]

On 04/04/2014 11:44 AM, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 04/04/2014 01:27 PM, Michael Black wrote:
On Fri, 4 Apr 2014, Danny D. wrote:

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Without arguing why I feel that way, I just wish to ask here whether
the complaint rightly goes to the FTC or to the FCC?

On the one hand, it's (grossly) false and misleading advertising.
On the other hand, it's a communication device.

Whom would you file the complaint to?
How?

It has nothing to do with the FCC.

The FCC deals with frequency allocation, and technical compliance. SO
if the phone was putting out unwanted signals, the FCC would be the
place to go.

But this is a consumer issue, there's no way it has anything to do with
the FCC.

Michael

Consumer complaints can start at the state AG's office.

Cheers

Phil Hobbs

Did somebody round down? Sheesh!.

 

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:28:26 -0500, Paul Miner wrote:

> I'm not clear on what you're upset about.

Basically, I would never have bought the phone had I known
there were only 600 MB of "usable" memory on it.

When I called T-Mobile, they insisted it had 4GB of
internal storage, and that you could add a 32 GB card.

It turns out that it has about 600 MB of "usable" internal
memory, and, the SD card slot is virtually worthless (for
moving applications onto or installing onto).

Had T-Mobile not lied in my many (well documented) calls,
I never would have bought the phone. So, all five elements
of fraud are (arguably) evident:
http://quizlet.com/19041431/5-elements-of-fraud-flash-cards/

1. a false representation of fact
2. knowledge of the falsity by party making false representation
3. intent to deceive the party by making false representation
4. reasonable reliance by the innocent party
5. actual loss suffered by the innocent party

 

[Danny D.]

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 20:18:59 -0400, tlvp wrote:

> No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth

Actually, I have many documented phone calls to T-Mobile,
with a witness (my wife) who was known to the T-Mobile as
a witness when I had asked the question each time.

Many times they told me the "usable memory" was 4GB!

In each case, I have the first name and employee ID of the
person who provided that errant information.

The errors are repeated, widespread, across Customer Service,
Customer Service Supervisors, Technical Support, and Technical
Support Supervisors.

Had I known the phones were unusable (they actually have less
than 1 MB of usable memory out of the box), I never would have
bought them.

Had T-Mobile told me the truth when I ordered the phones from
them, I never would have bought them.

 

[Danny DiAmico]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 13:27:15 -0400, Michael Black wrote:

But this is a consumer issue, there's no way it has anything to do with
the FCC.

I can't disagree with you, as that's why I had asked
the question.

The confusing thing is that the FCC web page complaint form:
http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Has a section for "Wireless Telephone" "Unlawful Advertising".

Since this advertising has all five elements of fraud, one
would think that the FCC is involved.

Meanwhile, I am going to fill out the FTC complaint form:
https://www.ftccomplaintassistant.gov/Details#crnt

 

[Danny DiAmico]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:35:52 -0700, Danny DiAmico wrote:

The confusing thing is that the FCC web page complaint form:
http://www.fcc.gov/complaints

Has a section for "Wireless Telephone" "Unlawful Advertising".

Specifically, the FCC has a section for:
Deceptive or unlawful advertising or marketing by a
communications company (does NOT include Telemarketing)

So, it seems the right place is the FCC and not the FTC
(or so I think at the moment).

 

[Danny DiAmico]

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 13:24:02 -0700, dave wrote:

> Did somebody round down?

The difference between 4GB and almost zero GB of usable
memory is more than a round off error ...

 

[Danny DiAmico]

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 14:44:53 -0400, Phil Hobbs wrote:

> Consumer complaints can start at the state AG's office.

Thanks. I never complained to an AG before, but
what I found on the FCC web site says I need to fill
out the "Form 2000A - Deceptive or Unlawful Advertising
and Promotion Complaint":
http://www.fcc.gov/cgb/consumerfacts/Form2000A.pdf

Then I will call the FTC at 888-225-5322 to provide
the necessary information. And I will fax the form
to 866-418-0232, and send a paper copy to the address:
Federal Communications Commission
Consumer & Governmental Affairs Bureau
Consumer Complaints
445 12th Street, SW
Washington, D.C. 20554

Basically, if you go to the T-Mobile web site, they
don't tell you the usable memory is nearly zero:
http://support.t-mobile.com/docs/DOC-5777

And, if you call them, they will email you the same
information (saying the usable memory is 4GB when, in
fact, it's nearly zero GB).

 

[Danny DiAmico]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:55:13 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

> Whom would you file the complaint to?

I filed form 2000A to the FCC:
https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/form2000.action?form_type=2000A

Usually, just one FCC complaint won't do much.
If lots of people complained, they'd do something.
But, for just one complaint, I'm told they just send it to
the manufacturer, who sends back a reply to the FCC, and
who gives you a call. That's pretty much it.

Nothing happens unless other people are as upset as I
that they lie about the available memory.

 

[Paul Miner]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 16:04:15 -0700, Danny DiAmico <dannyd@ahr.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:55:13 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

Whom would you file the complaint to?

I filed form 2000A to the FCC:
https://esupport.fcc.gov/ccmsforms/form2000.action?form_type=2000A

Usually, just one FCC complaint won't do much.
If lots of people complained, they'd do something.
But, for just one complaint, I'm told they just send it to
the manufacturer, who sends back a reply to the FCC, and
who gives you a call. That's pretty much it.

Nothing happens unless other people are as upset as I
that they lie about the available memory.

I'm not clear on what you're upset about. From your other thread, it seems
to be centered around not being able to use the SD card for applications, so
the obvious question becomes, did you assume that you'd be able to do those
things, or did you see something in writing that led you to believe that you
could?

Like I wrote in your other thread, I never expected or assumed that I'd be
able to use external storage for applications, so my expectations weren't
shattered. I'm able to do exactly what I expected I'd be able to do: use the
external storage for content rather than apps.

--
Paul Miner

 

[tlvp]

On Fri, 4 Apr 2014 15:55:13 +0000 (UTC), Danny D. wrote:

Long story short, I believe T-Mobile lied to the consumer by claiming
the LG Optimus F3 and LG Optimus L9 have both 4GB of internal memory
and that they can use up to a 32 GB external microsd card.

Well, they *do* have 4 GB of internal memory. And they use 'most all of it.

And they *can* use "up to a 32 GB external microsd card." Just not for
anything your little heart desires -- rather, only for what the OEM allows.

No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth .

Cheers, -- tlvp
--
Avant de repondre, jeter la poubelle, SVP.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Danny D." <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:lhnlo6$3k5$1@speranza.aioe.org...

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 18:28:26 -0500, Paul Miner wrote:

I'm not clear on what you're upset about.

Basically, I would never have bought the phone had I known
there were only 600 MB of "usable" memory on it.

When I called T-Mobile, they insisted it had 4GB of
internal storage, and that you could add a 32 GB card.

It turns out that it has about 600 MB of "usable" internal
memory, and, the SD card slot is virtually worthless (for
moving applications onto or installing onto).

Had T-Mobile not lied in my many (well documented) calls,
I never would have bought the phone. So, all five elements
of fraud are (arguably) evident:
http://quizlet.com/19041431/5-elements-of-fraud-flash-cards/

1. a false representation of fact
2. knowledge of the falsity by party making false representation
3. intent to deceive the party by making false representation
4. reasonable reliance by the innocent party
5. actual loss suffered by the innocent party

As I understand it from my own Android experiences, apps that the phone
comes pre-programmed with, mostly can't be deleted from the internal
storage - and some of these take up a lot of space. And then the reason that
many - if not most - downloaded applications cannot be moved to the SD card,
is because this is a slow device compared to the internal memory, and this
can screw with the operation of these apps.

The solution, of course, is to 'root' the phone. Then you can do what you
like with the storage ...

Arfa

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Danny D." <dannyd@is.invalid> wrote in message
news:lhnm19$3k5$2@speranza.aioe.org...

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 20:18:59 -0400, tlvp wrote:

No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth

Actually, I have many documented phone calls to T-Mobile,
with a witness (my wife) who was known to the T-Mobile as
a witness when I had asked the question each time.

Many times they told me the "usable memory" was 4GB!

In each case, I have the first name and employee ID of the
person who provided that errant information.

The errors are repeated, widespread, across Customer Service,
Customer Service Supervisors, Technical Support, and Technical
Support Supervisors.

Had I known the phones were unusable (they actually have less
than 1 MB of usable memory out of the box), I never would have
bought them.

Had T-Mobile told me the truth when I ordered the phones from
them, I never would have bought them.

From my experience of the Android platform on phones, you won't find it is
much different from your experience with the T-Mobile phone, right across
the board.

Arfa

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 02:58:57 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

The solution, of course, is to 'root' the phone.
Then you can do what you like with the storage ...

I've never rooted a phone, but, I may be forced to do so,
just to make the phone usable.

I do agree with you that *all* the preloaded apps won't allow
you to move them.

I guess if you could move them, you could delete them.

Mewonders if Google makes certain apps non-removable (e.g., Chrome)
because it's in there best interest. Yet, mewonders why
T-Mobile makes certain apps (e.g., T-Mobile TV) non-removable,
since there are plenty of their apps I'd never ever use but
I can't get rid of.

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 03:01:39 +0100, Arfa Daily wrote:

From my experience of the Android platform on phones, you won't find it is
much different from your experience with the T-Mobile phone, right across
the board.

I think the "problem" is that the "little lie" becomes a "big lie" the
closer your internal memory gets to 4GB.

For example, if they lie by 4GB in a 32GB phone, you still have a usable
28GB of "usable" memory.

Likewise, if they lie by 4GB in a 16GB or even 8GB phone, you still have
a usable 12GB and 4GB respectively.

But, if they lie by 4GB in a 4GB phone, you end up with a useless phone.

Compound that lie with the lie of the promise of the SD card, and you
are dead in the water with a phone you never would have bought, had the
carrier provided the truth when you looked up the specs and asked on
the phone about the "usable" memory.

 

[Danny D.]

On Sat, 05 Apr 2014 11:46:05 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Mewonders if Google makes certain apps non-removable (e.g., Chrome)
because it's in there best interest.

Oooops. "their" best interest!

 

[TJ]

On 04/04/2014 09:24 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 20:18:59 -0400, tlvp wrote:

No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth

Actually, I have many documented phone calls to T-Mobile,
with a witness (my wife) who was known to the T-Mobile as
a witness when I had asked the question each time.

Many times they told me the "usable memory" was 4GB!

In each case, I have the first name and employee ID of the
person who provided that errant information.

The errors are repeated, widespread, across Customer Service,
Customer Service Supervisors, Technical Support, and Technical
Support Supervisors.

Had I known the phones were unusable (they actually have less
than 1 MB of usable memory out of the box), I never would have
bought them.

Had T-Mobile told me the truth when I ordered the phones from
them, I never would have bought them.

I'm no lawyer, but I've watched several lawyer shows on TV. ;^)

Judging by that, I'd say that if the company reps said "usable" memory,
you haven't a leg to stand on. The memory on the phone is *usable." You
use it every time you turn the phone on. It's usefulness may be limited,
but that's different from "unusable." That's what the lawyers would
argue, anyway.

Now, if they used the term "available," that might be a different story.
Then again, it might not. As I said, I'm no lawyer.

Be aware that you aren't just taking on T-Mobile with this complaint.
You are taking on the entire computer industry. And the computer
industry has been doing this for a very long time. One of my first
computers, back in the mid-80's, was an Atari 800XL. It was advertised
as having 64K of RAM. It did, but only 48K was usable without special
manipulation which most users didn't know how to do. After a while, I
bought an aftermarket kit that boosted the RAM to 256K. I KNOW it had
256K, as I installed the chips myself. Even so, the new memory was only
available in 16K blocks and one at a time, through the same manipulation
used to access any more than the basic 48K.

Was it fraud to say I had a 256K computer when only 48K was easily
available? I didn't think so, because the full 256K was *usable*. It
just wasn't easy.

TJ

 

[TJ]

On 04/04/2014 09:24 PM, Danny D. wrote:

On Fri, 04 Apr 2014 20:18:59 -0400, tlvp wrote:

No lies there -- just truth, but rather less than the *whole* truth

Actually, I have many documented phone calls to T-Mobile,
with a witness (my wife) who was known to the T-Mobile as
a witness when I had asked the question each time.

Many times they told me the "usable memory" was 4GB!

In each case, I have the first name and employee ID of the
person who provided that errant information.

The errors are repeated, widespread, across Customer Service,
Customer Service Supervisors, Technical Support, and Technical
Support Supervisors.

Had I known the phones were unusable (they actually have less
than 1 MB of usable memory out of the box), I never would have
bought them.

Had T-Mobile told me the truth when I ordered the phones from
them, I never would have bought them.

If I were you and I still wanted to pursue the matter, I'd involve some
consumer advocate groups like Consumer Reports. My guess is they already
have several others who feel as betrayed as you do.

Maybe even contact a US Senator looking to get re-elected. Try one of
mine, Chuck Schumer. He's always looking for causes to "investigate" to
get his name in the paper.

TJ