Why Won't a Frozen Battery Start a Vehicle.

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:53:35 GMT, NoSpam@daqarta.com (Bob Masta) Gave
us:

so I came up with a sneaky way to do
it using only simple electronics, which I called ESS (Electronic
Spark Selection). Cadillac only used it for a couple of model
years before EST (Electronic Spark Timing) became standard,
but ESS cost only $20 to add to a car, where EST cost $180.
ESS also gave big fuel economy improvements compared to the
stock system, since the timing for normal operation could
be advanced farther. It didn't just operate at start, but allowed
cheapo switches to change the timing. So I used manifold
pressure switches and transmission speed switches that were
already there to tailor the timing for best emissions and
economy. Cheap and effective.

Ahh, the good old days!

Well, if it was you that came up with it, you need to review your
terms. Car engines NORMALLY operate well in advanced *before* TDC.

Retarding that toward TDC would not increase fuel economy. That is
what you suggested in your first post addressing this.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:19:55 -0500, Keith "Tard Boy" Williams
<ktard@attglobal.net> Gave us:

These two factors far outweigh any other engine or fuel dynamics.

You're an idiot. Air density, and hence cylinder TDC pressure is
greater, and also weighs in on cranking requisites. For you to
dismiss it really says a lot about you, Tard boy!

 

[Don A. Gilmore]

Sorry kid; he's right. The measure of a fuel's energy capacity is it's
heating value expressed in kJ/kg. Octane is simply a "knock rating". The
higher the knock rating, the more compression you can stand before you get
detonation (knocking) which is detrimental to the engine's performance.
It's basically unrelated to the heating value. Detonation is when the
air/fuel mixture gets so hot from compression that it ignites early.

What might be confusing you is that higher-octane fuels can be used to
deliver more actual engine power because they can stand higher compression
and supercharging. But when you supercharge an engine you simply put more
fuel with more air in each intake stroke. So the extra power you see takes
much more fuel. You're not getting more energy out of the fuel, you're just
using more fuel.

Don

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
news:d8lq109eal8196ank1ad3ammvsofngirgj@4ax.com...

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:53:35 GMT, NoSpam@daqarta.com (Bob Masta) Gave
us:

It's a popular misconception that high octane means high energy.
It doesn't, basically only determines anti-knock properties.

Racers use 100 octane fuel so that they can run higher compression
and get higher energy output. It yields higher energy in that it can
be used in an internal combustion engine better. The number itself
refers to its ability to only detonate when told, and not as a result
of temperature or pressure.

The fact that alcohol is now used to increase that number means that
even less energy is produced by ethanol added fuels. True gasoline of
higher octane numbers, however, does also produce higher levels of
energy as measured in BTUs.

Yer not gonna be able to fuck with me on this one, because I am not
one of your subjects that has the "popular misconception" which you
describe. Try again.

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <r8mq10drad3dgq289cimd4md40jf8esce2@4ax.com>,
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org says...

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 12:19:55 -0500, Keith "Tard Boy" Williams
ktard@attglobal.net> Gave us:


These two factors far outweigh any other engine or fuel dynamics.

You're an idiot. Air density, and hence cylinder TDC pressure is
greater, and also weighs in on cranking requisites. For you to
dismiss it really says a lot about you, Tard boy!

You really are a dimBulb. You've obviously never lived where it
reached -30F. The engine cranking torque is *huge* and battery
output *small*. Have you a *clue* what CCA is? ...I thought
not.

Yikes! You're an even bigger yutz than I'd given you credit for.
I'll have to add this to the long list of DimBulb-isms.

--

Keith

 

[Glenn Gundlach]

Keith R. Williams <krw@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a86ff3e2155f99b98ab73@enews.newsguy.com>...

In article <76lj10h26s45neeclig7d2ufl0brb2gt6i@4ax.com>,
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org says...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:39:12 -0700, "Denny B" <dmrbaptie@sprint.ca
Gave us:

A battery that is perfectly good why when it is -30C
won't it start a vehicle.


Density.

You sure are, DimBulb!

As has been noted the chemical reaction in the battery is far
lower in colder temperatures, so the current available is lower.
Chemical reactions are exponential functions WRT temperature
(batteries die during the summer, but aren't stressed until
winter). The "Cold Cranking Amps" spec attempts to quantify the
current available at low temperature.

The second major factor is the oil. The engine oil (and
transmission fluid) is about the consistency of peanut butter,
the engine needs far more torque from the starter, thus current
from the battery, to turn over. Thus CCA is important.

These two factors far outweigh any other engine or fuel dynamics.

And that is why I used synthetics when I lived in Wisconsin. It helped
A LOT.
Synthetic 10W30 will drip off the dipstick at -25F (yeah, I checked).
Conventional 10W30 at -25 took 15 minutes to 'pour' into the engine. I
sure don't miss that weather here in LA.
GG

 

[William J. Beaty]

"Denny B" <dmrbaptie@sprint.ca> wrote in message news:<yujSb.478$Ps4.3350@newscontent-01.sprint.ca>...

Chemically something is happening inside the battery.
Is it the electrolyte that freezes and chemically do what
it should do?

The acid is a pretty good antifreeze (but to what temp?)
If the electrolyte turned to slush, it would increase the
battery's internal series resistance. The voltage would
stay the same except when connected to the starter, then
the voltage would drop low.

Does something happen to the lead plates?
Does the 12 volts drop to a lower voltage? Does the current
output of the battery drop?

If the low temperature slows the chemical reactions, then
it increases the battery's series resistance, as if the
battery plate area was physically smaller. The wider the
battery plates, the lower the battery's internal resistance.
Can't start a car on AAA cells, even if you have eight of 'em
in series to get 12V. With zero series resistance, a battery
could put out hundreds of amperes yet still remain at 12V.
But with just one ohm of internal resistance, the battery
voltage would drop to zero if the starter motor tried to draw
more than 12 amps.

 

[Bob Masta]

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 11:52:17 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Sun, 01 Feb 2004 15:53:35 GMT, NoSpam@daqarta.com (Bob Masta) Gave
us:

so I came up with a sneaky way to do
it using only simple electronics, which I called ESS (Electronic
Spark Selection). Cadillac only used it for a couple of model
years before EST (Electronic Spark Timing) became standard,
but ESS cost only $20 to add to a car, where EST cost $180.
ESS also gave big fuel economy improvements compared to the
stock system, since the timing for normal operation could
be advanced farther. It didn't just operate at start, but allowed
cheapo switches to change the timing. So I used manifold
pressure switches and transmission speed switches that were
already there to tailor the timing for best emissions and
economy. Cheap and effective.

Ahh, the good old days!

Well, if it was you that came up with it, you need to review your
terms. Car engines NORMALLY operate well in advanced *before* TDC.

Retarding that toward TDC would not increase fuel economy. That is
what you suggested in your first post addressing this.

In automotive nomenclature, timing is called more advanced when it is
farther before TDC. It is retarded when it is closer to TDC. I'm
pretty sure this is one thing that hasn't changed in the last 30
years!

I never said retarding toward TDC would increase fuel economy;
it just helps cold-starts. The reason has to do with the reason
for advanced timing in the first place. You normally want the
bulk of the pressure pulse to come after TDC, but it takes a
certain time for the fuel to ignite and develop the pressure.
At higher RPMs that time translates into more degrees before
TDC. but at cranking RPMs it is negligible.

ESS helped economy because it allowed more advance where
and when it was needed at higher speeds. More advance is
good for economy, but the more efficient burn caused higher
combustion temperatures, which tended to burn the atmospheric
nitrogen as well as the fuel, which gave oxides of nitrogen as
polluting emissons. In those days the catalytic converters only
oxidized unburned hydrocarbons, they didn't reduce NOx like
some do today. So it was always a tightrope walk between
economy and emissions, and ESS just helped us tweak the
balance.


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 16:07:35 -0600, "Don A. Gilmore"
<eromlignod@kc.rr.com> Gave us:

Octane is simply a "knock rating".

That is what I SAID, dipshit.
You quoted it even. Do you not read?

 

[DarkMatter]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:57:18 GMT, NoSpam@daqarta.com (Bob Masta) Gave
us:

In automotive nomenclature, timing is called more advanced when it is
farther before TDC. It is retarded when it is closer to TDC. I'm
pretty sure this is one thing that hasn't changed in the last 30
years!

No shit. It certainly does NOT improve fuel economy, however.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:02:48 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You really are a dimBulb. You've obviously never lived where it
reached -30F. The engine cranking torque is *huge* and battery
output *small*. Have you a *clue* what CCA is? ...I thought
not.

Yikes! You're an even bigger yutz than I'd given you credit for.
I'll have to add this to the long list of DimBulb-isms.

You're an idiot.

I used to build racing engines... way back in the early seventies
thru the early eighties.

Not a mechanic... a machinist. I think I can handle extreme
pressure and temperature conditions for oil films, you retarded
turkey!

Oil viscosity at the temperature in question, AND air density at said
temperature are the main factors for cranking requisites on an engine
assembly. All the swept surfaces on the journal type bearings, and
the oil pump have higher requisites that at normal (72F) ambients.
The cylinders have higher tdc pressures due to the denser fuel air mix
as well, which yields firmer cranking requirements as well.

Got clue?

 

[DarkMatter]

On Mon, 02 Feb 2004 14:57:18 GMT, NoSpam@daqarta.com (Bob Masta) Gave
us:

I never said retarding toward TDC would increase fuel economy;
it just helps cold-starts. The reason has to do with the reason
for advanced timing in the first place. You normally want the
bulk of the pressure pulse to come after TDC, but it takes a
certain time for the fuel to ignite and develop the pressure.
At higher RPMs that time translates into more degrees before
TDC. but at cranking RPMs it is negligible.

Like I said before... I do NOT need a primer on internal combustion
engines. I profiled street/race cams for years.

I know of several varied and sundry ways of making a cold engine
start. Pulling the advanced timing back in a few degrees is one, but
without an automated facility to return it, one suffers economy.
Hence Cadillac's ESS. Good job.

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <pgft10pa826a19v3mb637u9ka5cqnrik32@4ax.com>,
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org says...

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:02:48 -0500, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You really are a dimBulb. You've obviously never lived where it
reached -30F. The engine cranking torque is *huge* and battery
output *small*. Have you a *clue* what CCA is? ...I thought
not.

Yikes! You're an even bigger yutz than I'd given you credit for.
I'll have to add this to the long list of DimBulb-isms.


You're an idiot.

I used to build racing engines... way back in the early seventies
thru the early eighties.

....and you raced such engines at -30C? You're simply stupid!

Not a mechanic... a machinist. I think I can handle extreme
pressure and temperature conditions for oil films, you retarded
turkey!

No, you're an greaser, at best.

Oil viscosity at the temperature in question, AND air density at said
temperature are the main factors for cranking requisites on an engine
assembly.

You're a fool, as you constantly demonstrate. Note that you
didn't mention oil viscosity until *I* brought it up.

Battery output is the other *huge* change. Note that chemical
processes halve for each 10C. At -30C there is *little* output
from a *new* battery (last week) to turn over a car filled with
sludge. I drove the wife to work.

DimBulb? Have you ever heard of CCA? DO you have a *clue* what
it means? ...I thought not.

All the swept surfaces on the journal type bearings, and
the oil pump have higher requisites that at normal (72F) ambients.
The cylinders have higher tdc pressures due to the denser fuel air mix
as well, which yields firmer cranking requirements as well.

You really are a retarded nutcase. Who the hell is talking about
72F? We're talking about -20F! Batteries have very little
output to crank a glued together engine at -30C. ...what a
maroon.

Got clue?

You obviously don't have a grip. ...on reality.

You've obviously never lived where it gets cold. Even a little
ol' granny understands these simple facts.

--
Keith

 

[Keith R. Williams]

In article <acb22b57.0402012240.618d12ee@posting.google.com>,
stratus46@yahoo.com says...

Keith R. Williams <krw@attglobal.net> wrote in message news:<MPG.1a86ff3e2155f99b98ab73@enews.newsguy.com>...
In article <76lj10h26s45neeclig7d2ufl0brb2gt6i@4ax.com>,
DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org says...
On Thu, 29 Jan 2004 19:39:12 -0700, "Denny B" <dmrbaptie@sprint.ca
Gave us:

A battery that is perfectly good why when it is -30C
won't it start a vehicle.


Density.

You sure are, DimBulb!

As has been noted the chemical reaction in the battery is far
lower in colder temperatures, so the current available is lower.
Chemical reactions are exponential functions WRT temperature
(batteries die during the summer, but aren't stressed until
winter). The "Cold Cranking Amps" spec attempts to quantify the
current available at low temperature.

The second major factor is the oil. The engine oil (and
transmission fluid) is about the consistency of peanut butter,
the engine needs far more torque from the starter, thus current
from the battery, to turn over. Thus CCA is important.

These two factors far outweigh any other engine or fuel dynamics.

And that is why I used synthetics when I lived in Wisconsin. It helped
A LOT.

Sure. Tell that to DimBulb!

Synthetic 10W30 will drip off the dipstick at -25F (yeah, I checked).
Conventional 10W30 at -25 took 15 minutes to 'pour' into the engine. I
sure don't miss that weather here in LA.

Well, we live in the other "cow" state. LA sucks though. I have
no interest in trading cold for PITA.

--
Keith

 

[Don Kelly]

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
newsgft10pa826a19v3mb637u9ka5cqnrik32@4ax.com...

On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:02:48 -0500, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You really are a dimBulb. You've obviously never lived where it
reached -30F. The engine cranking torque is *huge* and battery
output *small*. Have you a *clue* what CCA is? ...I thought
not.

Yikes! You're an even bigger yutz than I'd given you credit for.
I'll have to add this to the long list of DimBulb-isms.


You're an idiot.

I used to build racing engines... way back in the early seventies
thru the early eighties.

Not a mechanic... a machinist. I think I can handle extreme
pressure and temperature conditions for oil films, you retarded
turkey!

Oil viscosity at the temperature in question, AND air density at said
temperature are the main factors for cranking requisites on an engine
assembly. All the swept surfaces on the journal type bearings, and
the oil pump have higher requisites that at normal (72F) ambients.
The cylinders have higher tdc pressures due to the denser fuel air mix
as well, which yields firmer cranking requirements as well.

Got clue?
----------

As the man said- you obviously do not have experience in trying to start an
engine at -30 to -45. At -30, running the vehicle for a little while every
2-3 hours will work, if it isn't too windy. As you say, viscosity is a
problem but the main factor is that the battery simply says to hell with it
and may turn the engine a few slow revs then die. A squirt of ether in the
carb may help- not always. Flooding is another problem and if that occurs,
you might as well give up. Warming the battery is often as helpful as
warming the engine coolant. Do both if possible. Then, if you do get
started, there are other problems such as "square" wheels and, if cold
enough, the wheel bearings and steering gear are frozen solid (usually
bout -45 to -50).
Note that the US government hired Canadian planes and crews, who specialise
in arctic operations, for emergency rescues at the South Pole and even then
special precautions had to be taken. They went to those with the knowhow
and experience.
--
Don Kelly
dhky@peeshaw.ca
remove the urine to answer

 

[Bob Masta]

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 09:44:43 -0800, DarkMatter
<DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote:

On Sat, 31 Jan 2004 15:36:32 GMT, NoSpam@daqarta.com (Bob Masta) Gave
us:

(I doubt many dragsters run at below-freezing temperatures. )

That is exactly where they would most like to race, and there are
tracks all over the country. Ever heard of the "winternationals"?

They very much so like cold whether on race day.

Gasoline is specially formulated for the season of the year in
temperate climates.

Dragster operators formulate their own.

The winter formulation is much more volatile,
specifically to address this problem.

You're nuts.

The relevant parameter
here is "Reed Vapor Pressure".

Yeah, if we were talking about vapor. We are not.

Reid vapor pressure (the proper spelling) is about the final
pressure a volatile liquid reaches in a contained space. It varies
with temperature, and has not a thing to do with hard starting cars in
the winter. AGain, fuel in car induction systems gets atomized NOT
vaporized.

But they usually only formulate
for broad temperature ranges, so you may only get a generic
"winter" blend that is a compromise.

Sorry, but octane rating determines the energy output of the fuel,
as well as its ignition parameters. I don't see big swings in octane
numbers at the pumps in winter locales. In fact, I don't see ANY
swings. Your argument falls apart.

A search on Google for "Winter Reid Vapor Pressure" brings up
lots of hits. One in particular you might like is:
<www.gglotus.org/ggtech/gasoctane/gasoctane.htm>
It discusses regional summer/winter RVPs as well as octane.


Bob Masta
dqatechATdaqartaDOTcom

D A Q A R T A
Data AcQuisition And Real-Time Analysis
www.daqarta.com

 

[DarkMatter]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:25:55 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You're a fool, as you constantly demonstrate. Note that you
didn't mention oil viscosity until *I* brought it up.

] Leave it to some usenet twit to think that he is the sole initiator
in someone else's thought processes.

You couldn't be more retarded, boy.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:25:55 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

DimBulb? Have you ever heard of CCA? DO you have a *clue* what
it means? ...I thought not.

You have said this twice now.

I knew what it meant at ten, 35 years ago. You likely did not.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:25:55 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You really are a retarded nutcase. Who the hell is talking about
72F? We're talking about -20F! Batteries have very little
output to crank a glued together engine at -30C. ...what a
maroon.

You couldn't read if it saved your life. The statement clearly
refers to oil pumps having a harder time at the temperatures
mentioned in the thread than they do at 72 degree ambients.

It's a comparison. You do know what a comparison is, right?

You are the moron, dipshit.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Mon, 2 Feb 2004 22:25:55 -0500, Keith R. Williams
<krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You've obviously never lived where it gets cold. Even a little
ol' granny understands these simple facts.

You obviously draw conclusions based on your stupid little brain
fart mind making shit up about people.
You obviously don't know a goddamned thing about me.

You are obviously a fucking troll.

 

[DarkMatter]

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 04:05:53 GMT, "Don Kelly" <dhky@peeshaw.ca> Gave
us:

"DarkMatter" <DarkMatter@thebarattheendoftheuniverse.org> wrote in message
newsgft10pa826a19v3mb637u9ka5cqnrik32@4ax.com...
On Sun, 1 Feb 2004 22:02:48 -0500, Keith R. Williams
krw@attglobal.net> Gave us:

You really are a dimBulb. You've obviously never lived where it
reached -30F. The engine cranking torque is *huge* and battery
output *small*. Have you a *clue* what CCA is? ...I thought
not.

Yikes! You're an even bigger yutz than I'd given you credit for.
I'll have to add this to the long list of DimBulb-isms.


You're an idiot.

I used to build racing engines... way back in the early seventies
thru the early eighties.

Not a mechanic... a machinist. I think I can handle extreme
pressure and temperature conditions for oil films, you retarded
turkey!

Oil viscosity at the temperature in question, AND air density at said
temperature are the main factors for cranking requisites on an engine
assembly. All the swept surfaces on the journal type bearings, and
the oil pump have higher requisites that at normal (72F) ambients.
The cylinders have higher tdc pressures due to the denser fuel air mix
as well, which yields firmer cranking requirements as well.

Got clue?
----------
As the man said- you obviously do not have experience in trying to start an
engine at -30 to -45.

Where do you fucked in the head retards get this bullshit?

At -30, running the vehicle for a little while every
2-3 hours will work, if it isn't too windy. As you say, viscosity is a
problem but the main factor is that the battery simply says to hell with it
and may turn the engine a few slow revs then die.

I never at any time said that it wasn't. You dumb fuck!

A squirt of ether in the
carb may help- not always.

No shit? Really?

Flooding is another problem and if that occurs,
you might as well give up.

Not with modern fuel injected engines, it isn't.

Warming the battery is often as helpful as
warming the engine coolant.

I used to take my battery inside at night.

You see, you retards jump top conclusions based on ZERO facts. I
never said at ANY time that the battery does not suffer.

You can go to hell for believing the Keith tard's ranting trolling
baby bullshit.

Do both if possible. Then, if you do get
started, there are other problems such as "square" wheels and, if cold
enough, the wheel bearings and steering gear are frozen solid (usually
bout -45 to -50).
Note that the US government hired Canadian planes and crews, who specialise
in arctic operations, for emergency rescues at the South Pole and even then
special precautions had to be taken. They went to those with the knowhow
and experience.

Yes, and you retarded twits treating everyone like they never heard
of cold weather is amazingly par for the course for you holier than
thou know it all twits.