Why is the micro USB so fragile compared to mini USB cable e

[Andy Burns]

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Personally I don't like micro USB. It's too small, doesn't self guide
on insertion, the orientation is non-obvious and with the lack of
self guidance is the thing not going together because it's miss
aligned or the wrong way up?

Physically, I will admit the apple lightning connector is nicer, it's
still small, is reversible and it inserts smoothly, but I wouldn't want
a proprietary connector.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Andy Burns" <usenet.feb2014@adslpipe.co.uk> wrote in message
news:TLGdnRslbZUVamnOnZ2dnUVZ8hmdnZ2d@brightview.co.uk...

Dave Liquorice wrote:

Personally I don't like micro USB. It's too small, doesn't self guide
on insertion, the orientation is non-obvious and with the lack of
self guidance is the thing not going together because it's miss
aligned or the wrong way up?

Physically, I will admit the apple lightning connector is nicer, it's
still small, is reversible and it inserts smoothly,

Main downside is that the contacts are all exposed on the
end of the cable. That hasn’t bitten me yet, but it will sometime.

> but I wouldn't want a proprietary connector.

Yeah, I'd much rather have the same connector on everything.

But particularly with some very small devices like the Nokia BH-505
bluetooth headset, I do like the tiny proprietary Nokia jack because
that has just a tiny hole in the headset, under a bit of rubber that
stops water and sweat getting in it when the headset is being used.

 

[Rod Speed]

Avraham Bernholz <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote

Michael A. Terrell wrote

Replace the connectors, they are cheap enough.

I didn't know you *could* (easily) replace the connectors!
And, at 5 cents each, no less.

How can they possibly make money selling those micro usb connectors
for 5 cents each, with shipping from Szechuan China being 80 cents?

You sure about that 80c ? I've got lots of stuff for $1 total cost.

BTW, are they crimp on? Glue on? Solder on? What?
http://www.ebay.com/itm/121338466227

Those are definitely solder, you can see that in the second and third last
photos.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Avraham Bernholz" <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lt2tme$qun$2@news.albasani.net...

Avraham Bernholz wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:35:12 +0000:

I don't have the original shrinkwrap, but it was generic
Frys stuff. I will have to go back and look at the brand,
but, how does *that* help?

Here is a picture of a few of the bad microUSB cables:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=wvu1e8&s=8

This 6 foot long Belken cable no longer has any nubs:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=n4fhj9&s=8

So the Belken (on the right) didn't have any more nub than
the no-name brand on the left (in this picture below):
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=16kw2s2&s=8

I'm confused how I'm supposed to buy a good micro USB
cable when even the Belken brand loses its nubs.

I've got one that is used for the Logitech mouse and keyboard
charging and it hasn’t lost its nubs. Its been used every week or
so for charging both the mouse and keyboard, every week for
each. Came with one of them from logitech. From memory I
got one with each and have just used the one to charge both.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Avraham Bernholz" <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lt2tv3$qun$3@news.albasani.net...

Ralph Mowery wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 09:15:02 -0400:

Sounds like you are using the cables a lot . That would be plugging the
cables in betwen 3 and 10 times each day.

I don't think I'm using it any more than anyone else.
I was just guessing at the number of insertions.
It's only a couple times a day that it's used, on average.

Anyway, they failed in far fewer than 10,000 cycles, so, I'm
assuming the micro USB standard is seriously flawed, or, I'm
just getting bad cables from Frys.

Here is what Frys had today for USB cables in the components area:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/2dl23dc.jpg

So, I bought a 3 foot and 6 foot replacement:
http://oi61.tinypic.com/30ljkt1.jpg

We'll see how they fare, but, most seem to lose their nubs in
a few months like these two cables did:
http://oi60.tinypic.com/16kw2s2.jpg

The one at left is no name, the one at right
has Belkin molded on it. Maybe it's a fake?

Yeah, that's one obvious possibility.

> But I bought it at Frys, for sure.

Dunno if they have ever sold fake Belkins.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Avraham Bernholz" <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lt2ugg$qun$5@news.albasani.net...

Michael A. Terrell wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 14:02:13 -0400:

Replace the connectors, they are cheap enough.

I also have to replace the Duracell USB wall charger I bought
from Frys, as it just fell apart in my hands today!

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vjpnv8&s=8

That could have been dangerous because it left that missing pin
in hot port of the wall socket!

Have a look at the charger teardowns on youtube

You may never buy a non branded mains charger from china again.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Avraham Bernholz" <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lt2uqc$qun$6@news.albasani.net...

Dave Liquorice wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:13:06 +0100:

Personally I don't like micro USB. It's too small, doesn't self guide
on insertion, the orientation is non-obvious and with the lack of
self guidance is the thing not going together because it's miss
aligned or the wrong way up? Mini USB doesn't suffer those problems.

I agree with you that miniUSB was easier than microUSB, and I'm
all for standards, but for the newer micro USB plugs to last far
fewer insertions is crazy.

At least they should have come up with a standard where the number
of insertions goes *up*, not down, as they improve the connector!

BTW, you'll notice the pink nail polish?

Yeah, wondered what that was. Good idea.

Tho I'd prefer model paint since I'd have to buy it anyway.

I saw that trick on a forum here. It let's me know right away which
way to insert the plug as there's a matching dot on the device also!

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2vjpnv8&s=8

 

[Rod Speed]

"Avraham Bernholz" <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lt2v17$qun$7@news.albasani.net...

Andy Burns wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 20:31:19 +0100:

Physically, I will admit the apple lightning connector is nicer, it's
still small, is reversible and it inserts smoothly, but I wouldn't want
a proprietary connector.

Funny you should mention the lightning as I have iPads which
I also want to extend, so, I bought these extension cables today:
http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=30iamj5&s=8

I haven't opened them, because, when I got home, I realized that
I *maybe* should have gotten USB 3.0 extensions, instead of USB 2.0
extensions?

Assuming the big end is plugged into something of high enough power,
does it matter if the USB extension cable is USB 2.0 or 3.0?

No, what matters is how much metal there is in the wires in the cable.

I mean, I understand that 3.0 is more power,
but that is for the port, right?

Yep.

> Is it also the cable?

No, the wire gauge isnt specified in the standard.

That is, would I lose some power simply by connecting the iPad to the
lightning to the USB 2.0 cable to the 2.1 Amp wall charger ?

You can do if the wire gauge is too low so you get substantial
voltage drop in the extension cable.

The best way to check that is to get one of the USB
voltage and current meters off ebay for peanuts.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Charger-Doctor-Mobile-Battery-Tester-Power-Detector-Voltage-Current-Meter-/201116495155

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 04:38:17 +0000 (UTC), Avraham Bernholz
<Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote:

>Why is the micro USB so fragile compared to mini USB cable ends?

Because the micro-USB is designed to be fragile. The spec for both
connectors was originally 1,500 insertion cycles. That's roughly once
per day for 5 years, which is more than the average life of the cell
phone or gadget which uses the connector. A longer life would just be
a waste of money (for the manufacturers). The micro-USB spec was
later increased to 5,000 or even 10,000 cycles, which I suspect was
more wishful thinking than actual testing.

I've torn apart a few "failed" mini and micro USB connectors, mostly
on cell phones. Although most of the permanent damage is from
breakage, a fair number of the gold contacts had the plating blown
off, apparently from arcing. My guess(tm) is that inserting the
connector with the power applied is discharging a large capacitor in
the power source, through the connector, to the cell phone. It
doesn't take many arcs to destroy the gold plating. The USB 2.0
specification limits the initial inrush current to 0.1A before the
chips negotiate to turn on the current to anywhere from 0.5A to 2A
maximum current. The spec also limits the size of the load
capacitance to 10uf. The idea is to prevent arcing. However, if the
power supply vendor ignores the spec, the connector contacts will fry
in short order.

Some relevant comments on USB:
<http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/18552/why-was-mini-usb-deprecated-in-favor-of-micro-usb>
<http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/36375/understanding-usb-inrush-current-requirements>
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Durability>

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Avraham Bernholz]

Ralph Mowery wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:41:59 -0400:

That is why I asked why the origional poster was plugging
in about 3 to 10 times a day.

I never formally measured how many times I plug in a day,
but, for the smartphone, it's at least 3 to 5 times a day.

For example, I get in the car, and plug in the phone (otherwise
the battery will die with the GPS running). I use the GPS and
go to the store (I use the GPS with traffic all the time, even
if I know where I'm going).

I get out of the car at the store and bring my phone.
Back from the store, I plug her back in.
Off to my next errand.

Then, I get to work (let's say), and pull it again, and then plug
it into the work USB cable. Each time I run to a meeting, I unplug
it (the darn thing only lasts a few hours and I've been caught
dead too many times).

Then, it's off to lunch, and we plug it back in at the car, and
back off, and then back at work we plug in, and off, etc.

Back at home, we run the same routine. So, the total number of
plugs in and out is easily about 20 a day (or so), but only about
five or ten on any one cable.

If the battery would last all day, that would be a different
story, but it won't last more than a few hours.

 

[Ralph Mowery]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:145av9d2c1bn25d6qhlic8h2s4lo87asia@4ax.com...

On Wed, 20 Aug 2014 04:38:17 +0000 (UTC), Avraham Bernholz
Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote:

Why is the micro USB so fragile compared to mini USB cable ends?

Because the micro-USB is designed to be fragile. The spec for both
connectors was originally 1,500 insertion cycles. That's roughly once
per day for 5 years, which is more than the average life of the cell
phone or gadget which uses the connector. A longer life would just be
a waste of money (for the manufacturers). The micro-USB spec was
later increased to 5,000 or even 10,000 cycles, which I suspect was
more wishful thinking than actual testing.

That is why I asked why the origional poster was plugging in about 3 to 10
times a day.

 

[Poutnik]

Dne 20.8.2014 v 23:57 Jeff Liebermann napsal(a):

I've torn apart a few "failed" mini and micro USB connectors, mostly
on cell phones. Although most of the permanent damage is from
breakage, a fair number of the gold contacts had the plating blown
off, apparently from arcing. My guess(tm) is that inserting the
connector with the power applied is discharging a large capacitor in
the power source, through the connector, to the cell phone. It
doesn't take many arcs to destroy the gold plating. The USB 2.0
specification limits the initial inrush current to 0.1A before the
chips negotiate to turn on the current to anywhere from 0.5A to 2A
maximum current. The spec also limits the size of the load
capacitance to 10uf. The idea is to prevent arcing. However, if the
power supply vendor ignores the spec, the connector contacts will fry
in short order.

I instinctively plug micro USB end into a phone,
before I plug the USB end into USB socket of PC or a charge.

--
Poutnik

Wise man guards the words he says,
as they may say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

 

[Poutnik]

Dne 21.8.2014 v 05:27 Rod Speed napsal(a):

I don't get that effect with mine. I do drive between towns
in rural areas with no coverage between them and don't
find that I see a much reduced time on battery in that
situation and I leave the GPS, wifi and bluetooth on all
the time too.

Perhaps there is difference between no coverage
( phone may give up, not listening any tower )
and weak coverage ( phone tries to communicate by high power
to weak signals of distant/terrain shielded towers ).

I remember my old Siemens feature phone M50 lasted usually 4 days.
But in the mountains with bad coverage,
it was drained in few hours of whole day ski trip.

--
Poutnik

Wise man guards the words he says,
as they may say about him more,
than he says about the subject.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:tvrav9tnnd0jebnl2ch3n3ddukrnvorus6@4ax.com...

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:27:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:26oav99db8asj0t98jo80kg7e2u2vggvd5@4ax.com...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:21:19 +1000, "Rod Speed"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

If the battery would last all day, that would be a different
story, but it won't last more than a few hours.

Which phone is that ? That's obscene.

It might not be the phone.

That's why I asked, to see if that phone has
a reputation for lousy time between charges.

Well, there are tests for battery life. This one is nice because you
can adjust the results by your usage pattern. Too bad it doesn't
include accidentally turning on the back lighting in one's pocket:
http://www.gsmarena.com/gsmarena_labs_introducing_the_battery_life_table-news-8159.php
http://www.gsmarena.com/battery-test.php3

I don't get that effect with mine. I do drive between towns
in rural areas with no coverage between them and don't
find that I see a much reduced time on battery in that
situation and I leave the GPS, wifi and bluetooth on all
the time too.

Well, try this simple test. Put your phone inside an aluminum foil
bag or box. The foil should provide a fairly good RF shield
simulating a zero signal situation. If you're not sure if the
shielding is working, try calling your cell phone from another phone
to see if it rings. If it does ring, you're either too close to a
cell site, or the shielding is somehow inadequate. I've only done
this once using a Motorola Droid X and the battery was nearly dead in
about 8 hrs.

I effectively do that test when I drive between major towns.

This is higher than "normal" because in the foil box,
the backlighting never came on, no calls were made,
and no videos were played.

I also don't get the effect he does that you need to have
the phone on the charger to use the GPS in the car either.

I vaguely recall that some older phones, like my ancient AudioVox
XV-6700 had a feature that only enabled the GPS when it was plugged
into a car kit. The GPS sucked so much power that it would rapidly
deplete the battery if left on. So, that was a battery saving feature.

Yeah, some did operate like that. Plenty didn't tho, most obviously
with the TomTom stand alone GPSs which I never bothered to
plug into the car, just made sure I charged it up before moving
it to the car at the start of a trip.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 13:27:15 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:26oav99db8asj0t98jo80kg7e2u2vggvd5@4ax.com...
On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:21:19 +1000, "Rod Speed"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

If the battery would last all day, that would be a different
story, but it won't last more than a few hours.

Which phone is that ? That's obscene.

It might not be the phone.

That's why I asked, to see if that phone has
a reputation for lousy time between charges.

Well, there are tests for battery life. This one is nice because you
can adjust the results by your usage pattern. Too bad it doesn't
include accidentally turning on the back lighting in one's pocket:
<http://www.gsmarena.com/gsmarena_labs_introducing_the_battery_life_table-news-8159.php>
<http://www.gsmarena.com/battery-test.php3>

I don't get that effect with mine. I do drive between towns
in rural areas with no coverage between them and don't
find that I see a much reduced time on battery in that
situation and I leave the GPS, wifi and bluetooth on all
the time too.

Well, try this simple test. Put your phone inside an aluminum foil
bag or box. The foil should provide a fairly good RF shield
simulating a zero signal situation. If you're not sure if the
shielding is working, try calling your cell phone from another phone
to see if it rings. If it does ring, you're either too close to a
cell site, or the shielding is somehow inadequate. I've only done
this once using a Motorola Droid X and the battery was nearly dead in
about 8 hrs. This is higher than "normal" because in the foil box,
the backlighting never came on, no calls were made, and no videos were
played.

I also don't get the effect he does that you need to have
the phone on the charger to use the GPS in the car either.

I vaguely recall that some older phones, like my ancient AudioVox
XV-6700 had a feature that only enabled the GPS when it was plugged
into a car kit. The GPS sucked so much power that it would rapidly
deplete the battery if left on. So, that was a battery saving
feature.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Rod Speed]

"Avraham Bernholz" <Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:lt3kbb$fn8$1@news.albasani.net...

Ralph Mowery wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:41:59 -0400:

That is why I asked why the origional poster was plugging
in about 3 to 10 times a day.

I never formally measured how many times I plug in a day,
but, for the smartphone, it's at least 3 to 5 times a day.

For example, I get in the car, and plug in the phone (otherwise
the battery will die with the GPS running). I use the GPS and
go to the store (I use the GPS with traffic all the time, even
if I know where I'm going).

I get out of the car at the store and bring my phone.
Back from the store, I plug her back in.
Off to my next errand.

Then, I get to work (let's say), and pull it again, and then plug
it into the work USB cable. Each time I run to a meeting, I unplug
it (the darn thing only lasts a few hours and I've been caught
dead too many times).

Then, it's off to lunch, and we plug it back in at the car, and
back off, and then back at work we plug in, and off, etc.

Back at home, we run the same routine. So, the total number of
plugs in and out is easily about 20 a day (or so), but only about
five or ten on any one cable.

If the battery would last all day, that would be a different
story, but it won't last more than a few hours.

Which phone is that ? That's obscene.

 

[Rod Speed]

"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:26oav99db8asj0t98jo80kg7e2u2vggvd5@4ax.com...

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:21:19 +1000, "Rod Speed"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

If the battery would last all day, that would be a different
story, but it won't last more than a few hours.

Which phone is that ? That's obscene.

It might not be the phone.

That's why I asked, to see if that phone has
a reputation for lousy time between charges.

If the signal from the towers are weak, the phone will loose
the connection and go hunting for a better tower. It does
this by transmitting it's ID until a tower answers. In strong
signal areas, my ancient LG VX8300 phone will last about 4
days. When all the local towers went off the air after some
idiot cut the backhaul fiber in 2009, my cell phone battery
was dead 6 hours after a full charge.

I don't get that effect with mine. I do drive between towns
in rural areas with no coverage between them and don't
find that I see a much reduced time on battery in that
situation and I leave the GPS, wifi and bluetooth on all
the time too.

Drivel: I recently noticed that my Motorola Droid X2 phone battery
was barely making it through the day. I replaced the battery, and no
change. Looking at the settings, I found that most of the power was
being consumed by the backlighting. That's odd, because I only use
this phone as a PDA and only to lookup phone numbers and appointments.
Hardly any real use that would account for hours of backlighting.
Then, I remembered that I had changed the backlighting delay from 1
minute to 2 minutes. The phone was activating in my picket, causing
the backlighting to activate in my pocket. With the backlight turn
off delay doubled, so was my overall daily current drain. I set it
back to 1 minute and the battery life dramatically improved. I later
discovered that there was no way to prevent an accidental button press
from turning on the backlighting. (Bad design).

Yeah, I bet the problem is something like that with his.

I also don't get the effect he does that you need to have
the phone on the charger to use the GPS in the car either.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 12:21:19 +1000, "Rod Speed"
<rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:

If the battery would last all day, that would be a different
story, but it won't last more than a few hours.

Which phone is that ? That's obscene.

It might not be the phone. If the signal from the towers are weak,
the phone will loose the connection and go hunting for a better tower.
It does this by transmitting it's ID until a tower answers. In strong
signal areas, my ancient LG VX8300 phone will last about 4 days. When
all the local towers went off the air after some idiot cut the
backhaul fiber in 2009, my cell phone battery was dead 6 hours after a
full charge.

Drivel: I recently noticed that my Motorola Droid X2 phone battery
was barely making it through the day. I replaced the battery, and no
change. Looking at the settings, I found that most of the power was
being consumed by the backlighting. That's odd, because I only use
this phone as a PDA and only to lookup phone numbers and appointments.
Hardly any real use that would account for hours of backlighting.
Then, I remembered that I had changed the backlighting delay from 1
minute to 2 minutes. The phone was activating in my picket, causing
the backlighting to activate in my pocket. With the backlight turn
off delay doubled, so was my overall daily current drain. I set it
back to 1 minute and the battery life dramatically improved. I later
discovered that there was no way to prevent an accidental button press
from turning on the backlighting. (Bad design).

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Thu, 21 Aug 2014 02:08:43 +0000 (UTC), Avraham Bernholz
<Avraham.Bernholz@gmail.com> wrote:

Ralph Mowery wrote, on Wed, 20 Aug 2014 18:41:59 -0400:

That is why I asked why the origional poster was plugging
in about 3 to 10 times a day.

I never formally measured how many times I plug in a day,
but, for the smartphone, it's at least 3 to 5 times a day.

I'll take the 5 times per day or about 1500 insertion/removal cycles
per year. If you believe the 10,000 cycles specification, then you'll
get 6.7 years life. Of course, introducing some dirt into the
connector should improve the abrasion. Oddly, I read that the reason
for the increase in mating cycles is beause of the redesigned
stainless shell, not anything to do with the contacts.
<http://www.mouser.com/new/kycon/kyconmicrousb/>
"With a stainless steel shell, the KMMLX series yields more
than 10,000 insertion cycles."
Color me suspicious.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Avraham Bernholz]

Poutnik wrote, on Thu, 21 Aug 2014 07:18:51 +0200:

I instinctively plug micro USB end into a phone,
before I plug the USB end into USB socket of PC or a charge.

One thing I've just learned, from Jeff Liebermann, is to do
the same!