Why is PC chasis put on voltage when earth/ground wire is mi

[Skybuck Flying]

Hello,

Apperently PC's have "incoming netfilters/powerfilters" in the Netherlands
possibly Europe which filter out fluctuations caused by other equipment on
power lines.

One design which seems to be in use is a netfilter which tries to use the
earth/grounding wire to get rid of the excessive fluctuations... however if
the earth wire is not available it seems to dump the additional voltage to
the chasis, or it puts the chasis under/on voltage for some other reason ?!?

So my question is:

Does the netfilter indeed output excessive voltages onto the chasis ?

If so why does it do this ?

Can it not simply dump the excessive fluctuations to the other wire ?

Perhaps it does not know which wire to use because of the way plugs can be
plugged in ?
(+ - versus - +)

If so then that could explain why it can't dump additional voltage to the
2-wire system and instead choses to dump it to the chasis.

Can this voltage on the chasis slowly build up over time ? Does it become
like a battery or something ?

However if these are not the reasons to put the chasis under/on voltage then
what is the real reason to put the chasis on voltage in case there is no
earth wire ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[tuinkabouter]

Op 5/15/2011 12:29 AM, Skybuck Flying schreef:

Hello,

Apperently PC's have "incoming netfilters/powerfilters" in the Netherlands
possibly Europe which filter out fluctuations caused by other equipment on
power lines.

One design which seems to be in use is a netfilter which tries to use the
earth/grounding wire to get rid of the excessive fluctuations... however if
the earth wire is not available it seems to dump the additional voltage to
the chasis, or it puts the chasis under/on voltage for some other reason ?!?

So my question is:

Does the netfilter indeed output excessive voltages onto the chasis ?

If so why does it do this ?

Can it not simply dump the excessive fluctuations to the other wire ?

Perhaps it does not know which wire to use because of the way plugs can be
plugged in ?
(+ - versus - +)

If so then that could explain why it can't dump additional voltage to the
2-wire system and instead choses to dump it to the chasis.

Can this voltage on the chasis slowly build up over time ? Does it become
like a battery or something ?

However if these are not the reasons to put the chasis under/on voltage then
what is the real reason to put the chasis on voltage in case there is no
earth wire ?!?

hey moron,

This is already answered in another group you posted too.
Besides that YOU mentioned a website with the answers.

--
pim.

 

[Hal]

"Skybuck Flying" <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d6d7d$4dcf0208$54192c06$28446@cache3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...

Hello,

Apperently PC's have "incoming netfilters/powerfilters" in the Netherlands
possibly Europe which filter out fluctuations caused by other equipment on
power lines.

One design which seems to be in use is a netfilter which tries to use the
earth/grounding wire to get rid of the excessive fluctuations... however
if the earth wire is not available it seems to dump the additional voltage
to the chasis, or it puts the chasis under/on voltage for some other
reason ?!?

So my question is:

Does the netfilter indeed output excessive voltages onto the chasis ?

If so why does it do this ?

Can it not simply dump the excessive fluctuations to the other wire ?

Perhaps it does not know which wire to use because of the way plugs can be
plugged in ?
(+ - versus - +)

If so then that could explain why it can't dump additional voltage to the
2-wire system and instead choses to dump it to the chasis.

Can this voltage on the chasis slowly build up over time ? Does it become
like a battery or something ?

However if these are not the reasons to put the chasis under/on voltage
then what is the real reason to put the chasis on voltage in case there is
no earth wire ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

Simply: regular netfilters contains two capacitors of the same value (the so
called Y-capacitors). The midpoint (fig. 1
http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/2001/janfeb/Georgerian36.html ) is connected
to the chassis. These capacitors carry about 0.25 -0.5 mA ~ current. Both
the ~ terminals in the PC are floting. As the mains outside the PC is
grounded, and in case the chassis of the PC is not connected to ground, the
chassis will, because of voltage dividing, end up at a potential of half the
mains voltage, capable of delivering 0.5 mA. So you can get a shock when
touching a not grounded PC. Especially care is needed if more than one
device with such a filter is connected to the same outlet. Currents add up
an can become hazardes.
So don't use your lips to sense the temperature somewere in the PC as I
sometimes did .

Hal

 

[Skybuck Flying]

"tuinkabouter" <dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote in message
news:iqobmt$9e1$1@dont-email.me...

Op 5/15/2011 12:29 AM, Skybuck Flying schreef:
Hello,

Apperently PC's have "incoming netfilters/powerfilters" in the
Netherlands
possibly Europe which filter out fluctuations caused by other equipment
on
power lines.

One design which seems to be in use is a netfilter which tries to use the
earth/grounding wire to get rid of the excessive fluctuations... however
if
the earth wire is not available it seems to dump the additional voltage
to
the chasis, or it puts the chasis under/on voltage for some other reason
?!?

So my question is:

Does the netfilter indeed output excessive voltages onto the chasis ?

If so why does it do this ?

Can it not simply dump the excessive fluctuations to the other wire ?

Perhaps it does not know which wire to use because of the way plugs can
be
plugged in ?
(+ - versus - +)

If so then that could explain why it can't dump additional voltage to the
2-wire system and instead choses to dump it to the chasis.

Can this voltage on the chasis slowly build up over time ? Does it become
like a battery or something ?

However if these are not the reasons to put the chasis under/on voltage
then
what is the real reason to put the chasis on voltage in case there is no
earth wire ?!?

hey moron,

Hey Moron,

This is already answered in another group you posted too.
Besides that YOU mentioned a website with the answers.

No LOL.

These websites explained why there was a voltage on the chasis from a
reverse enginering point of view.

My question is from a design point of view.

Why was it designed like this in the first place ?!

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[Skybuck Flying]

"Hal" <h.waal@invalid.nl> wrote in message
news:BNqdnT-jDcpgclLQnZ2dnUVZ8kydnZ2d@giganews.com...

"Skybuck Flying" <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:d6d7d$4dcf0208$54192c06$28446@cache3.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...
Hello,

Apperently PC's have "incoming netfilters/powerfilters" in the
Netherlands possibly Europe which filter out fluctuations caused by other
equipment on power lines.

One design which seems to be in use is a netfilter which tries to use the
earth/grounding wire to get rid of the excessive fluctuations... however
if the earth wire is not available it seems to dump the additional
voltage to the chasis, or it puts the chasis under/on voltage for some
other reason ?!?

So my question is:

Does the netfilter indeed output excessive voltages onto the chasis ?

If so why does it do this ?

Can it not simply dump the excessive fluctuations to the other wire ?

Perhaps it does not know which wire to use because of the way plugs can
be plugged in ?
(+ - versus - +)

If so then that could explain why it can't dump additional voltage to the
2-wire system and instead choses to dump it to the chasis.

Can this voltage on the chasis slowly build up over time ? Does it become
like a battery or something ?

However if these are not the reasons to put the chasis under/on voltage
then what is the real reason to put the chasis on voltage in case there
is no earth wire ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

Simply: regular netfilters contains two capacitors of the same value (the
so called Y-capacitors). The midpoint (fig. 1
http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/2001/janfeb/Georgerian36.html ) is connected
to the chassis. These capacitors carry about 0.25 -0.5 mA ~ current. Both
the ~ terminals in the PC are floting. As the mains outside the PC is
grounded, and in case the chassis of the PC is not connected to ground,
the chassis will, because of voltage dividing, end up at a potential of
half the mains voltage, capable of delivering 0.5 mA. So you can get a
shock when touching a not grounded PC. Especially care is needed if more
than one device with such a filter is connected to the same outlet.
Currents add up an can become hazardes.
So don't use your lips to sense the temperature somewere in the PC as I
sometimes did .

This was already discussed, this is looking at it from an reverse enginering
point of view.

Now the question is:

Why was it designed this way ?!?

Cannot it now be designed in a different way so that the chasis does not
need to be under/on voltage ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[Ben]

This was already discussed, this is looking at it from an reverse
enginering point of view.

Now the question is:

Why was it designed this way ?!?

Cannot it now be designed in a different way so that the chasis does not
need to be under/on voltage ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

Read the fucking manual.

This apparatus MUST BE EARTHED !

So, connecting to a Non Earthed AC source is totally on your own risk.

 

[Skybuck Flying]

"Ben" <benzandstra_but_no_spam@caiway.nl> wrote in message
news:4dd00b7e$0$850$58c7af7e@news.kabelfoon.nl...

This was already discussed, this is looking at it from an reverse
enginering point of view.

Now the question is:

Why was it designed this way ?!?

Cannot it now be designed in a different way so that the chasis does not
need to be under/on voltage ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.


Read the fucking manual.

It's not in the fucking manual:

Seasonic S12 600 watt manual:

http://www.seasonicusa.com/images/BrochureManuals/NewS12Manual1.pdf

This apparatus MUST BE EARTHED !

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting the
chasis under voltage ?!?

Why does it need to put the chasis under voltage when it's not earthed ?

You have not answered any of my questions and seem to think that these
questions are documented somewhere which so far appears not to be the case.

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[Skybuck Flying]

Antec 1200 case does not mention it as well:

http://www.antec.com/pdf/manuals/1200_EN%20manual.pdf

I am starting to get a little pissed off right about now.

There is no way I could have known that first of all earthing is required
and second of all what would happen if it's not earthed... -> chasis under
power.

Seems to me these companies might be sueable... only thing which is in doubt
if it was in the law by the time I bought and assembled and damage the PC...
(laws might have been updated in 2001 however might not apply to every home
build before that time).

Perhaps law says: "it's required to earth computers"... in that case the
companies might get away with it.
However law also says what to do when not earthed, though to difficult for
me to tell.

But perhaps not because I did not know what would happen if it was not
earthed and that if I would connect my devices that there would be a voltage
on the chasis:

Thus negleance of critical information and thus perhaps sueable for
withholding critical information which could lead to damage.

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[MassiveProng]

On Sun, 15 May 2011 21:09:59 +0200, "Skybuck Flying"
<BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

There is no way I could have known that first of all earthing is required
and second of all what would happen if it's not earthed... -> chasis under
power.

Yes there is.

You let ONLY QUALIFIED, TRAINED persons perform the work.

If YOU are unaware of residential, commercial, industrial, and
technological STANDARDS, then you should not "dive in" and merely hope
all will be well, then proceed to blame others when YOU are the asshole
that fucked up.

The bloody shame is that you are so bloody fucking stupid.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 15/05/2011 17:39, Skybuck Flying wrote:

"tuinkabouter"<dachthetniet@net.invalid> wrote in message
news:iqobmt$9e1$1@dont-email.me...
Op 5/15/2011 12:29 AM, Skybuck Flying schreef:
Hello,

Apperently PC's have "incoming netfilters/powerfilters" in the
Netherlands
possibly Europe which filter out fluctuations caused by other equipment
on
power lines.

One design which seems to be in use is a netfilter which tries to use the
earth/grounding wire to get rid of the excessive fluctuations... however
if
the earth wire is not available it seems to dump the additional voltage
to
the chasis, or it puts the chasis under/on voltage for some other reason
?!?

So my question is:

Does the netfilter indeed output excessive voltages onto the chasis ?

If so why does it do this ?

Can it not simply dump the excessive fluctuations to the other wire ?

Perhaps it does not know which wire to use because of the way plugs can
be
plugged in ?
(+ - versus - +)

If so then that could explain why it can't dump additional voltage to the
2-wire system and instead choses to dump it to the chasis.

Can this voltage on the chasis slowly build up over time ? Does it become
like a battery or something ?

However if these are not the reasons to put the chasis under/on voltage
then
what is the real reason to put the chasis on voltage in case there is no
earth wire ?!?

hey moron,

Hey Moron,

This is already answered in another group you posted too.
Besides that YOU mentioned a website with the answers.

No LOL.

These websites explained why there was a voltage on the chasis from a
reverse enginering point of view.

My question is from a design point of view.

Why was it designed like this in the first place ?!

In any civilised country it is labelled in *VERY* LARGE LETTERS:

WARNING: THIS APPLIANCE MUST BE *EARTHED*

Ignore this safety instruction at your peril.

Failure to earth it results in the chassis floating at 120v or so but
realtively low current provided something else doesn't go wrong...

You are a third rate fuckwit and will surely electrocute yourself.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <bbac8$4dd001b9$54192c06$1351@cache6.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

These websites explained why there was a voltage on the chasis from a
reverse enginering point of view.

My question is from a design point of view.

Why was it designed like this in the first place ?!

The filters are intended to create a connection between each side of
the power line, and ground, which has a low impedance at high (RF)
frequencies. This connection is created with a capacitor, connected
between the power line conductor(s) and ground. By presenting a low
impedance at RF, the capacitor creates what one might call a
"preferred" path for the RF noise... it's "easier" for the noise to
flow to ground, than it is for it to flow back onto the power line (if
it was created inside the equipment) or into the equipment (if it was
coming in from the power line).

Noise can be present on either or both of the power-line conductors,
(and if it's on both, it can be in the same polarity or the opposite
polarity). This means that you need a capacitor from each conductor
to ground.

The capacitors do allow a small amount of power-line current to flow
through them... their impedance at 50 or 60 Hz is quite high, so only
a small amount of current leaks through.

If you disconnect the equipment chassis from ground, this leaves the
chassis connected to the two sides of the power line by capacitors of
equal value (usually). If you're using "non-balanced" power (with one
side being "neutral" and close to ground voltage), this capacitive
"voltage divider" will leave the chassis sitting at around half of the
power-line voltage. However, this will usually not present any sort
of safety/shock hazard if you touch the chassia and are grounded,
because the high impedance of the capacitors at 50 or 60 Hz limits the
current to well below the shock limit.

If you're in a country which uses symmetrical, "balanced" power, then
the chassis will remain at nearly ground voltage even if you
disconnect it from ground.

I believe it's *not* a good idea to run this sort of equipment (three
wires, with one wire connected to the chassis and to earth-ground) in a
non-grounded mode. Even if doing so doesn't create a safety hazard,
it defeats much of the benefit of the noise-filtering components, and
it may create hum/buzz problems (if e.g. you connect it to another
component, via a simple non-balanced audio or video cable with RCA
plugs/jacks, and the other component *is* properly grounded).

Here in the U.S., I believe it's considered to be unsafe to run such
components this way... "defeating the ground prong" on a 3-wire plug
is generally considered to be a hazardous or improper installation,
and might void the warranty. That's part of what I meant by "grossly
defective" in my earlier message.

Appliances which are designed with a 2-wire (non-grounded) power cord
and plug are built differently... they don't connect RF filtering
capacitors to the chassis, and they are usually "double-insulated" so
that a fault in the wire insulation can't bring it into contact with a
metal chassis that someone could touch.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <86813$4dd022ec$54192c06$7012@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting the
chasis under voltage ?!?

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Skybuck Flying]

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:m9v5a8-mke.ln1@radagast.org...

In article <86813$4dd022ec$54192c06$7012@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting
the
chasis under voltage ?!?

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some kind of
voltage on them.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being zero/nul
wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul wire could
be grounded as well.

So it seems to make little difference/sense... unless there is something
else going on like confusion about
wires/impossible to tell cheaply how they wired electronically and so
forth...

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[Skybuck Flying]

Perhaps it's like a traffic jam.

The + is where the traffic comes from.

The - is where the traffic would go to.

The PC wants to consume some of the traffic and
wants to shed the rest so it would have to divert
traffic to the -.

However becomes other devices might also try to shed traffic to the -, the -
gets flooded and can't handle the traffic, so the traffic backsup back into
the pc and the pc gets into trouble.

Perhaps this is where the ground wire comes into play.

The ground wire is like an additional lane, which is at least as big as the
+ maybe even bigger so it can easily divert extra traffic.

At first this might not seem to make much sense since how could the - be
bigger than the + ?

Well that's where batteries/capacitators come into play... they store some
of the + insight them... and then suddenly it's all released at once...
flooding the -.

Just like people parking their cars at work/parking garage... then all
leaving at the same time ! =D

Just another whacky theory/hypothesis of mine, does it make any sense ?

Bye,
Skybuck.

"Skybuck Flying" <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:6b92d$4dd065a9$54192c06$23430@cache5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl...

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:m9v5a8-mke.ln1@radagast.org...
In article <86813$4dd022ec$54192c06$7012@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting
the
chasis under voltage ?!?

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some kind of
voltage on them.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being zero/nul
wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul wire
could be grounded as well.

So it seems to make little difference/sense... unless there is something
else going on like confusion about
wires/impossible to tell cheaply how they wired electronically and so
forth...

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[Dave Platt]

In article <6b92d$4dd065a9$54192c06$23430@cache5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

Not really, because ...

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some kind of
voltage on them.

.... you've just demonstrated that you don't currently understand
enough about electricity, or mains-type wiring conventions, to make
much sense out of the answer.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being zero/nul
wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul wire could
be grounded as well.

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires ?!?

There is a real difference. You're going to have to figure this one
out for yourself.

Simply apply one of the most fundamental laws of electricity - Ohm's
Law:

E = I * R

Consider the fact that there are often many amperes of current (I)
flowing through both the hot and neutral ("nul") wires.

Also consider that the safety-ground wire is *not* carrying any
current under normal circumstances.

Finally, consider the fact that all wires have resistance.

Now, answer it for yourself: what's different between the ground-wire
connection and the neutral-wire connection when they reach your PC?

--
Dave Platt <dplatt@radagast.org> AE6EO
Friends of Jade Warrior home page: http://www.radagast.org/jade-warrior
I do _not_ wish to receive unsolicited commercial email, and I will
boycott any company which has the gall to send me such ads!

 

[Skybuck Flying]

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:j0a6a8-1ks.ln1@radagast.org...

In article <6b92d$4dd065a9$54192c06$23430@cache5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

Not really, because ...

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some kind of
voltage on them.

... you've just demonstrated that you don't currently understand
enough about electricity, or mains-type wiring conventions, to make
much sense out of the answer.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being zero/nul
wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul wire
could
be grounded as well.

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires ?!?

There is a real difference. You're going to have to figure this one
out for yourself.

Simply apply one of the most fundamental laws of electricity - Ohm's
Law:

E = I * R

Consider the fact that there are often many amperes of current (I)
flowing through both the hot and neutral ("nul") wires.

Flowing in what direction ?

Also consider that the safety-ground wire is *not* carrying any
current under normal circumstances.

I don't agree with that simply because all pc's attached to it are "leaking"
even if it's just a little bit.

So if this is compared with a nul-wire which some say has little to no
current as well I see little difference.

At least from the wire perspective... perhaps the Earth is a big sucking
device sucking all the electricity harder
on the ground wire then on the other wires but I don't know that for sure

Finally, consider the fact that all wires have resistance.

I'd figure all wires made of same material and same thickness ultimately so
perhaps little difference ?

At least the wires directly on the socket... the ground pin does seem a bit
thicker

Now, answer it for yourself: what's different between the ground-wire
connection and the neutral-wire connection when they reach your PC?

Depends on situation... neutral wire could be 0 or -120 volts, ground should
be 0 or something... but can also contain some... perhaps 120 volts leaking
from pc !

The neutral wire probably has more ampere flowing because of the pc... and
the ground wire has little ampere flowing...

But why can't excessive ampere not simply flow out the neutral wire ?!? why
most it go through ground wire ?!?

Why would ground wire have less fluctuations ? Partially answered already
because leak is only very little...

But why would leaking to neutral cause fluctuations ?! Seem my traffic
reasoning... perhaps that has something to do with it...

Eletricity does flow in a certain direction... from + to - ?!?

So big + goes to PC... which goes to -.

Little + is leak and why can't it also go to - ?!?

Perhaps use eletricity consuming component to get rid of it, instead of
going via ground wire ?!? So ground no longer necessary.

Don't bother with formula's and such... nature don't work with formula's...

Nature work with electrons... so you try explaining it with little
electronics as if they were cars...

Maybe then I will understand it a bit better !

Bye,
Skybuck.

 

[John G]

Skybuck Flying explained on 16/05/2011 :

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:m9v5a8-mke.ln1@radagast.org...
In article <86813$4dd022ec$54192c06$7012@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting
the
chasis under voltage ?!?

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some kind of
voltage on them.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being zero/nul
wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul wire could
be grounded as well.

So it seems to make little difference/sense... unless there is something else
going on like confusion about
wires/impossible to tell cheaply how they wired electronically and so
forth...

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires ?!?

Bye,
Skybuck.

At your current ignorance and inability to be told you will never
understand anyting electrical.
So why don't you go to a real college and learn the basics before
demonstrating how stupid you are.

For starters current flows both ways in any domestic supply circuit and
barring error leaks and very minor currents from noise suppresion
capacitors, the current in the Neautral is EQUAL to the current in the
Active.
The Ground is a safety and must be capable of carrying the full current
possible in this particular circuit if a fault occurs.

 

[Hal]

Knip----

Seasonic S12 600 watt manual:

http://www.seasonicusa.com/images/BrochureManuals/NewS12Manual1.pdf

This apparatus MUST BE EARTHED !

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting
the chasis under voltage ?!?

Why does it need to put the chasis under voltage when it's not earthed ?

You have not answered any of my questions and seem to think that these
questions are documented somewhere which so far appears not to be the
case.

Bye,
Skybuck.
You need an EMI expert to answer this question. But I am shure that if there

are ways, they will be (much) more costly then the presently choosen
solution. So the second question is: "Are most customers willing to pay
extra for something, almost nobody (except you) is intersted in."

Hal

 

[Martin Brown]

On 16/05/2011 00:46, Skybuck Flying wrote:

"Dave Platt"<dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:m9v5a8-mke.ln1@radagast.org...
In article<86813$4dd022ec$54192c06$7012@cache2.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying<BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

Why does it need to be earthed ? Why does it need a third earth wire ?

Why cannot it not simply use two wires without earth and without putting
the
chasis under voltage ?!?

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some kind of
voltage on them.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being zero/nul
wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul wire could
be grounded as well.

So it seems to make little difference/sense... unless there is something
else going on like confusion about
wires/impossible to tell cheaply how they wired electronically and so
forth...

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires ?!?

It is the one that saves your worthless life when something goes wrong.

PSUs can be designed to run off 2 pin sockets if they are double
insulated and show a square in a square on the outside. Wallwarts and
mobile phone charges and portable PC PSUs are typically of this type.

All the others are intended to be used in an earthed chassis
configuration to protect the user from any live to case faults - for
example if one of the capacitors breaks down and fails short circuit.

I find it incredible that anyone can be so monumentally dumb.

Regards,
Martin Brown

 

[Bob F]

Skybuck Flying wrote:

"Dave Platt" <dplatt@radagast.org> wrote in message
news:j0a6a8-1ks.ln1@radagast.org...
In article <6b92d$4dd065a9$54192c06$23430@cache5.tilbu1.nb.home.nl>,
Skybuck Flying <BloodyShame@hotmail.com> wrote:

If you do that, it becomes impossible to filter out "common mode"
electrical noise.

Care to explain why ?

Not really, because ...

To me these all seem wires... perhaps one or two wires with some
kind of voltage on them.

... you've just demonstrated that you don't currently understand
enough about electricity, or mains-type wiring conventions, to make
much sense out of the answer.

Let's suppose one wire with voltage on them and the other being
zero/nul wire.

What's the difference with a ground wire ?!? Some even say at nul
wire could
be grounded as well.

What makes the earth wire so special compared to the other wires
?!?

There is a real difference. You're going to have to figure this one
out for yourself.

Simply apply one of the most fundamental laws of electricity - Ohm's
Law:

E = I * R

Consider the fact that there are often many amperes of current (I)
flowing through both the hot and neutral ("nul") wires.

Flowing in what direction ?

It's AC, so it flow both directions.

Also consider that the safety-ground wire is *not* carrying any
current under normal circumstances.

I don't agree with that simply because all pc's attached to it are
"leaking" even if it's just a little bit.

So if this is compared with a nul-wire which some say has little to no
current as well I see little difference.

At least from the wire perspective... perhaps the Earth is a big
sucking device sucking all the electricity harder
on the ground wire then on the other wires but I don't know that for
sure
Finally, consider the fact that all wires have resistance.

I'd figure all wires made of same material and same thickness
ultimately so perhaps little difference ?

At least the wires directly on the socket... the ground pin does seem
a bit thicker

In some cases, the ground wire is somewhat smaller than the power conductors.

Now, answer it for yourself: what's different between the
ground-wire connection and the neutral-wire connection when they
reach your PC?

Depends on situation... neutral wire could be 0 or -120 volts, ground
should be 0 or something... but can also contain some... perhaps 120
volts leaking from pc !

The neutral wire probably has more ampere flowing because of the
pc... and the ground wire has little ampere flowing...

Neutral carries almost exactly the same current as the hot lead.

But why can't excessive ampere not simply flow out the neutral wire
?!? why most it go through ground wire ?!?

Why would ground wire have less fluctuations ? Partially answered
already because leak is only very little...

But why would leaking to neutral cause fluctuations ?! Seem my
traffic reasoning... perhaps that has something to do with it...

Eletricity does flow in a certain direction... from + to - ?!?

Remember, this is AC (alternating current). It goes one way, then the other,
ovewr and over.

So big + goes to PC... which goes to -.

Little + is leak and why can't it also go to - ?!?

Perhaps use eletricity consuming component to get rid of it, instead
of going via ground wire ?!? So ground no longer necessary.

Ground is there to carry minor leakage (to get rid of electrical noise) and
contain major fault currents, thus keeping the chassis at a safe voltage level
even if something goes wrong, so you don't get electrocuted. The chassis stays
at ground voltage, the same as your house pipes, floor, etc.

Don't bother with formula's and such... nature don't work with
formula's...
Nature work with electrons... so you try explaining it with little
electronics as if they were cars...

Maybe then I will understand it a bit better !

Bye,
Skybuck.

Try googleing a few basic electronics sites and learning. The formulas show
exactly how electricity works - don't put them down. When you understand them,
you will understand how it works. Argueing with people here ("don't bother with
formulas") just shows an unwillingness to study and learn. You seem to want us
to do all the work for you to learn.