Whole House Arc Fault And Power Quality Monitor...

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.
In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

You\'re not going to have a \"significant\" current arc without causing a voltage disturbance that can be detected. The Ting not only detects the arc but localizes it too. If it\'s smart enough to localize the arc, it\'s smart enough to ignore arcs occurring off premises.

Have you ordered yours yet? Well, why not?

The \"ting\" is on the way. I\'m positively thrilled.
Your chances of dying in an electrical-caused fire are about 1 PPM per
year, and I suspect that a minority of those fires result from an arc.

So $99 a year for less than 1 PPM saved life. That\'s over $99 million
a year worth of life insurance, even if Ting is not bogus.

It\'s up to the individual. Some people buy earthquake insurance in areas where the occurrence is very rare. Same for other kinds of natural disasters as well as umbrella policy enhancements to their coverage for events of very small likelihood.

Uncalibrated fear sells.

Insurance company is giving me a 3-year free trial.

The first year\'s subscription is included. What\'s the price after
that?

The ad says $99 annual, I think that\'s the subscription price.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.
In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

You\'re not going to have a \"significant\" current arc without causing a voltage disturbance that can be detected. The Ting not only detects the arc but localizes it too. If it\'s smart enough to localize the arc, it\'s smart enough to ignore arcs occurring off premises.

How can a 3-prong plug, observing line voltage, localize an arc? Will
you program it with a wiring diagram of your house and neighborhood?
Of course, not even that would help; there\'s not enough DSP in the
world.

The testimonials are obviously bogus.

 

[Tabby]

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.
As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires. There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.


> and that\'s hard to document inside a house. But the junction boxes to the grid distribution system tend to be on the street, so the fact that the back ends of the houses might be close together doesn\'t mean what Tabby wants it to mean.

Again lots of houses have very close connections. If you think they ran huge amounts of unnecessary cable in the 1930s think again. A lot of the UK still runs on the original feeds.

 

[Tabby]

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 16:06:55 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 19 May 2023 15:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 11:23:40 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:33:23?PM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Much the same way that domestic broad-band over power wiring systems don\'t end up talking to the next door neigbours,

ah, passwords

Power wiring attenuates high frequency content, and the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation.

You mean it detects arcing next door 20\' away but not at the far end of this property?

It checks the arc\'s password, of course.

Turns out they have quite good passwords, all capacitors accept them.

> And of course the Ting thing isn\'t a purchase, it\'s a subscription.

a flag if ever there were one.

 

[Tabby]

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 17:12:31 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 1:33:05 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:

What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical fires result from arcs.
What makes you thing this? And if a fire softened and degraded the electrical insulation between two power wires could well lead to an arc.
And the arcs are not usually caused by sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.
Obviously not, But if you want to create an arc in air it seems like as good a way as any. Starting an arc inside a xenon arc lamp took a 20kV spark, which took a bit of getting in a way that didn\'t blow up the power supply that sustained the arc once initiated.,
And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.
What makes you think this?
Have you ordered yours yet? Well, why not?
He does say that it is incredible.
The first year\'s subscription is included. What\'s the price after that?
Why not ask Ting? They might know.

People have tested AFDDs & found them not very effective. I doubt Ting has something better.

 

[Tabby]

On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.
In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

You\'re not going to have a \"significant\" current arc without causing a voltage disturbance that can be detected. The Ting not only detects the arc but localizes it too. If it\'s smart enough to localize the arc, it\'s smart enough to ignore arcs occurring off premises.

How can a 3-prong plug, observing line voltage, localize an arc? Will
you program it with a wiring diagram of your house and neighborhood?
Of course, not even that would help; there\'s not enough DSP in the
world.

The testimonials are obviously bogus.

Testimonials are of some value when no-one\'s making money from them, and exactly zero when they are.
Even if a ting could tell you exactly what distance away the arc was, in a lot of cases you wouldn\'t know if it was your house or another. And looking at the distance vs frequency graphs it\'s clear it has no hope of determining the distance away of the arc.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sun, 21 May 2023 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.
In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

You\'re not going to have a \"significant\" current arc without causing a voltage disturbance that can be detected. The Ting not only detects the arc but localizes it too. If it\'s smart enough to localize the arc, it\'s smart enough to ignore arcs occurring off premises.

How can a 3-prong plug, observing line voltage, localize an arc? Will
you program it with a wiring diagram of your house and neighborhood?
Of course, not even that would help; there\'s not enough DSP in the
world.

The testimonials are obviously bogus.

Testimonials are of some value when no-one\'s making money from them, and exactly zero when they are.
Even if a ting could tell you exactly what distance away the arc was, in a lot of cases you wouldn\'t know if it was your house or another. And looking at the distance vs frequency graphs it\'s clear it has no hope of determining the distance away of the arc.

One statistic is that 4 out of 5 fatal house fires are caused by
electric space heaters setting stuff on fire. Ting can\'t predict that.
A smoke detector might catch smouldering before it erupts.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 11:53:49 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:

On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.
As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires.

Clearly you aren\'t. The whoosh is stuff going over your head - which happens a lot, and you are too dim realise it.

>There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.

Terrace houses in England will certainly work the way - our house in Cambridge was a lot longer than it was wide.

and that\'s hard to document inside a house. But the junction boxes to the grid distribution system tend to be on the street, so the fact that the back ends of the houses might be close together doesn\'t mean what Tabby wants it to mean.

Again lots of houses have very close connections. If you think they ran huge amounts of unnecessary cable in the 1930s think again. A lot of the UK still runs on the original feeds.

But they didn\'t cross link house through party walls. All the power consumed in one house-hold went through one meter,

It\'s you who needs to think - advising you to think again would imply that I thought that you had done any thinking about the subject at all.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:12:57 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 21 May 2023 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

<snip>

One statistic is that 4 out of 5 fatal house fires are caused by electric space heaters setting stuff on fire. Ting can\'t predict that.
A smoke detector might catch smouldering before it erupts.

Ting isn\'t designed to predict anything. It\'s designed to detect electric arcs. If an electric space heater sets stuff on fire, the power lead to the device is going to get hot enough to degrade the insulation between the wires, and Ting is designed to detect the consequent arc.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[wmartin]

On 5/21/23 21:24, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:12:57 PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

One statistic is that 4 out of 5 fatal house fires are caused by electric space heaters setting stuff on fire. Ting can\'t predict that.
A smoke detector might catch smouldering before it erupts.

Ting isn\'t designed to predict anything. It\'s designed to detect electric arcs. If an electric space heater sets stuff on fire, the power lead to the device is going to get hot enough to degrade the insulation between the wires, and Ting is designed to detect the consequent arc.

If it hasn\'t been burned to a crisp already...

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 May 2023 12:24:19 -0700, wmartin <wwm@wwmartin.net> wrote:

On 5/21/23 21:24, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:12:57?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

One statistic is that 4 out of 5 fatal house fires are caused by electric space heaters setting stuff on fire. Ting can\'t predict that.
A smoke detector might catch smouldering before it erupts.

Ting isn\'t designed to predict anything. It\'s designed to detect electric arcs. If an electric space heater sets stuff on fire, the power lead to the device is going to get hot enough to degrade the insulation between the wires, and Ting is designed to detect the consequent arc.

If it hasn\'t been burned to a crisp already...

Cool. If you have a Ting, you don\'t need smoke detectors. Just wait
until the fire causes an arc somewhere.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 2:15:47 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.
In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

You\'re not going to have a \"significant\" current arc without causing a voltage disturbance that can be detected. The Ting not only detects the arc but localizes it too. If it\'s smart enough to localize the arc, it\'s smart enough to ignore arcs occurring off premises.

How can a 3-prong plug, observing line voltage, localize an arc? Will
you program it with a wiring diagram of your house and neighborhood?
Of course, not even that would help; there\'s not enough DSP in the
world.

I\'m just getting into the details of that working paper right now. At first it looked like something written by a bunch of kids, but actually they\'re sort of over-simplifying things for whomever...

Checking the authors:

Stan Heckman

https://www.tingfire.com/company-product/electrical-fire-safety-in-the-home-tings-deep-roots/

Even NASA uses Earth Networks, so that much is real.


VYTENIS BABRAUSKAS

Actually has the distinction of being the first person ever awarded a PhD in fire safety engineering.

https://independent.academia.edu/VytoBabrauskas/CurriculumVitae


Christopher D. Sloop

https://www.earthnetworks.com/company/leadership/%E2%80%8Bchristopher-d-sloop/


More Earth Networks

The others are a data scientist and a business end co-founder.

I\'m pretty sure you\'re not going to find that kind of technical lead doing anything particularly stupid. They\'re really putting the product out there more to collect performance data than anything else.

The testimonials are obviously bogus.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 May 2023 13:28:32 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 2:15:47?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.
In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

You\'re not going to have a \"significant\" current arc without causing a voltage disturbance that can be detected. The Ting not only detects the arc but localizes it too. If it\'s smart enough to localize the arc, it\'s smart enough to ignore arcs occurring off premises.

How can a 3-prong plug, observing line voltage, localize an arc? Will
you program it with a wiring diagram of your house and neighborhood?
Of course, not even that would help; there\'s not enough DSP in the
world.

I\'m just getting into the details of that working paper right now. At first it looked like something written by a bunch of kids, but actually they\'re sort of over-simplifying things for whomever...

Checking the authors:

Stan Heckman

https://www.tingfire.com/company-product/electrical-fire-safety-in-the-home-tings-deep-roots/

Even NASA uses Earth Networks, so that much is real.


VYTENIS BABRAUSKAS

Actually has the distinction of being the first person ever awarded a PhD in fire safety engineering.

https://independent.academia.edu/VytoBabrauskas/CurriculumVitae


Christopher D. Sloop

https://www.earthnetworks.com/company/leadership/%E2%80%8Bchristopher-d-sloop/


More Earth Networks

The others are a data scientist and a business end co-founder.

I\'m pretty sure you\'re not going to find that kind of technical lead doing anything particularly stupid. They\'re really putting the product out there more to collect performance data than anything else.




The testimonials are obviously bogus.

State Farm Insurance is promoting it, and there seems to be deals with
local electricians.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 05:19:37 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 11:53:49 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.
As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires.
Clearly you aren\'t.

Lol, oh dear.

The whoosh is stuff going over your head - which happens a lot, and you are too dim realise it.
There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.
Terrace houses in England will certainly work the way - our house in Cambridge was a lot longer than it was wide.

and that, as I said, is why it can\'t possibly tell which property an arc is on.

and that\'s hard to document inside a house. But the junction boxes to the grid distribution system tend to be on the street, so the fact that the back ends of the houses might be close together doesn\'t mean what Tabby wants it to mean.

Again lots of houses have very close connections. If you think they ran huge amounts of unnecessary cable in the 1930s think again. A lot of the UK still runs on the original feeds.
But they didn\'t cross link house through party walls. All the power consumed in one house-hold went through one meter,

of course lol. The feeds to each house join the street distribution cable outside the properties. Thus distances to neighbour are often shorter than to the end of the house.

> It\'s you who needs to think - advising you to think again would imply that I thought that you had done any thinking about the subject at all.

Your crap is blatant.

 

[Tabby]

On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 20:33:16 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Mon, 22 May 2023 12:24:19 -0700, wmartin <w...@wwmartin.net> wrote:

On 5/21/23 21:24, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:12:57?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

One statistic is that 4 out of 5 fatal house fires are caused by electric space heaters setting stuff on fire. Ting can\'t predict that.
A smoke detector might catch smouldering before it erupts.

Ting isn\'t designed to predict anything. It\'s designed to detect electric arcs. If an electric space heater sets stuff on fire, the power lead to the device is going to get hot enough to degrade the insulation between the wires, and Ting is designed to detect the consequent arc.

If it hasn\'t been burned to a crisp already...
Cool. If you have a Ting, you don\'t need smoke detectors. Just wait
until the fire causes an arc somewhere.

and wait for them to send you an email, and for someone to book to come & investigate.
Faux Engineer: We came out, but there\'s no such address
Customer: I know, there used to be before the fire.

 

[John Larkin]

On Mon, 22 May 2023 16:58:29 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 20:33:16 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Mon, 22 May 2023 12:24:19 -0700, wmartin <w...@wwmartin.net> wrote:

On 5/21/23 21:24, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 1:12:57?PM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 19:06:34 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Sunday, 21 May 2023 at 19:15:47 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Sun, 21 May 2023 09:04:30 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:10:53?PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

snip

One statistic is that 4 out of 5 fatal house fires are caused by electric space heaters setting stuff on fire. Ting can\'t predict that.
A smoke detector might catch smouldering before it erupts.

Ting isn\'t designed to predict anything. It\'s designed to detect electric arcs. If an electric space heater sets stuff on fire, the power lead to the device is going to get hot enough to degrade the insulation between the wires, and Ting is designed to detect the consequent arc.

If it hasn\'t been burned to a crisp already...
Cool. If you have a Ting, you don\'t need smoke detectors. Just wait
until the fire causes an arc somewhere.

and wait for them to send you an email, and for someone to book to come & investigate.
Faux Engineer: We came out, but there\'s no such address
Customer: I know, there used to be before the fire.

Funny.

Amazingly, Ting has no audible or visual alarm.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 9:56:30 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:

On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 05:19:37 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 11:53:49 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.

As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires.

Clearly you aren\'t.

Lol, oh dear.

Tabby still doesn\'t get it.

The whoosh is stuff going over your head - which happens a lot, and you are too dim realise it.

There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.

Terrace houses in England will certainly work the way - our house in Cambridge was a lot longer than it was wide.

and that, as I said, is why it can\'t possibly tell which property an arc is on.

That\'s because you still don\'t understand that it\'s the distance along the wires that matters, not the physical separation between the arc and the arc detector.

and that\'s hard to document inside a house. But the junction boxes to the grid distribution system tend to be on the street, so the fact that the back ends of the houses might be close together doesn\'t mean what Tabby wants it to mean.

Again lots of houses have very close connections. If you think they ran huge amounts of unnecessary cable in the 1930s think again. A lot of the UK still runs on the original feeds.

But they didn\'t cross link house through party walls. All the power consumed in one house-hold went through one meter,

of course lol. The feeds to each house join the street distribution cable outside the properties. Thus distances to neighbour are often shorter than to the end of the house.

It\'s you who needs to think - advising you to think again would imply that I thought that you had done any thinking about the subject at all.

Your crap is blatant.

It\'s your crap that is the problem here. It just reminds everybody that you can\'t do joined up logic.
You do comfort yourself with the idea that repeatedly claiming that you do understand what\'s going on - when you clearly don\'t - is a way of winning argument.

It \'s one more of your numerous logical fallacies.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tabby]

On Tuesday, 23 May 2023 at 05:49:46 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 9:56:30 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 05:19:37 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 11:53:49 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation..

As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires.

Clearly you aren\'t.

Lol, oh dear.
Tabby still doesn\'t get it.
The whoosh is stuff going over your head - which happens a lot, and you are too dim realise it.

There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.

Terrace houses in England will certainly work the way - our house in Cambridge was a lot longer than it was wide.

and that, as I said, is why it can\'t possibly tell which property an arc is on.
That\'s because you still don\'t understand that it\'s the distance along the wires that matters, not the physical separation between the arc and the arc detector.

if you\'re too messed up to even listen to what\'s being said then further discussion is pointless

snip more junk

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 10:11:11 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:

On Tuesday, 23 May 2023 at 05:49:46 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 9:56:30 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 05:19:37 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 11:53:49 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.

As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires.

Clearly you aren\'t.

Lol, oh dear.

Tabby still doesn\'t get it.

The whoosh is stuff going over your head - which happens a lot, and you are too dim realise it.

There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.

Terrace houses in England will certainly work the way - our house in Cambridge was a lot longer than it was wide.

and that, as I said, is why it can\'t possibly tell which property an arc is on.

That\'s because you still don\'t understand that it\'s the distance along the wires that matters, not the physical separation between the arc and the arc detector.

if you\'re too messed up to even listen to what\'s being said then further discussion is pointless.

You really should invent your own abuse. That\'s exactly what I\'ve just said to you.

> snip more junk.

I\'m inclined to agree that pointing out that you are a complacent half-wit is a waste of bandwidth - you won\';t get the message and everybody else has known it for years, but you are in no position to complain about it, since you never post anything worth reading. We all know that you take yourself seriously - and shouldn\'t.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tabby]

On Wednesday, 24 May 2023 at 04:54:30 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Wednesday, May 24, 2023 at 10:11:11 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Tuesday, 23 May 2023 at 05:49:46 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Tuesday, May 23, 2023 at 9:56:30 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Monday, 22 May 2023 at 05:19:37 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 11:53:49 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Saturday, 20 May 2023 at 06:38:20 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.

As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires,

whoosh. I\'m solely discussing distance along wires.

Clearly you aren\'t.

Lol, oh dear.

Tabby still doesn\'t get it.

The whoosh is stuff going over your head - which happens a lot, and you are too dim realise it.

There are a large number of properties where the distance to next door is far less than the length of in-house cabling.

Terrace houses in England will certainly work the way - our house in Cambridge was a lot longer than it was wide.

and that, as I said, is why it can\'t possibly tell which property an arc is on.

That\'s because you still don\'t understand that it\'s the distance along the wires that matters, not the physical separation between the arc and the arc detector.

if you\'re too messed up to even listen to what\'s being said then further discussion is pointless.

You really should invent your own abuse. That\'s exactly what I\'ve just said to you.

snip more junk.

I\'m inclined to agree that pointing out that you are a complacent half-wit is a waste of bandwidth - you won\';t get the message and everybody else has known it for years, but you are in no position to complain about it, since you never post anything worth reading. We all know that you take yourself seriously - and shouldn\'t.

you\'re not worth continuing wasting time on.