Whole House Arc Fault And Power Quality Monitor...

[Fred Bloggs]

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/

 

[John Larkin]

On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!

Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/

Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 2:19:26 PM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

Your homeowners insurer may give you one at no cost. It collects a lot of data and uploads it Whisker Labs Inc. There may be a risk of losing your insurance if you have bad wiring I\'m guessing.

 

[Tabby]

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:33:23 PM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Much the same way that domestic broad-band over power wiring systems don\'t end up talking to the next door neigbours, Power wiring attenuates high frequency content, and the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Or a hair dryer with a brush motor?

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23 AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:

On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf

 

[Tabby]

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 11:23:40 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:33:23 PM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Much the same way that domestic broad-band over power wiring systems don\'t end up talking to the next door neigbours,

ah, passwords

> Power wiring attenuates high frequency content, and the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation.

You mean it detects arcing next door 20\' away but not at the far end of this property?

 

[Tabby]

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Or a hair dryer with a brush motor?

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.

 

[boB]

On Fri, 19 May 2023 15:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 11:23:40 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:33:23?PM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Much the same way that domestic broad-band over power wiring systems don\'t end up talking to the next door neigbours,

ah, passwords

Power wiring attenuates high frequency content, and the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation.

You mean it detects arcing next door 20\' away but not at the far end of this property?

I tell ya, the power lines around my neighborhood sure interfere with
my radio up to at least 15+ MHz. Pain in the butt.

DC photovoltaic arcs are prevelant up to several hundred kHz at least.

It also makes a difference in what kind of material the conductor is
made of. Copper... Aluminum, etc.

boB

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:30:54 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 11:23:40 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:33:23 PM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Much the same way that domestic broad-band over power wiring systems don\'t end up talking to the next door neigbours,

ah, passwords

But also interference.

Power wiring attenuates high frequency content, and the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation.

You mean it detects arcing next door 20\' away but not at the far end of this property?

Power wiring is laid in pairs. Dipoles don\'t radiate into free space all that effectively.The path between houses that matters is the one that runs out to the house\'s junction box, along to the neighbour\'s junction box, and back out from the neighbour\'s junction box.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 8:34:39 AM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 14:29:25 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 00:33:17 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabb...@gmail.com
wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Or a hair dryer with a brush motor?

I\'ll wait for Fred\'s report on how it actually works.

AIUI it detects inconsistent hf content. The graph shows a messy freq/dist relationship, making distinguishing here from next door impossible, unless next door is far away. And that is frequently not the situation.

As usual Tabby\'s \"as I understand it\" documents the fact that he doesn\'t understand it very well. He never does, which doesn\'t stop him imagining that he does,

The distances that matter are along pairs of wire, not between pairs of wires, and that\'s hard to document inside a house. But the junction boxes to the grid distribution system tend to be on the street, so the fact that the back ends of the houses might be close together doesn\'t mean what Tabby wants it to mean.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 19 May 2023 15:30:48 -0700 (PDT), Tabby <tabbypurr@gmail.com>
wrote:

On Friday, 19 May 2023 at 11:23:40 UTC+1, Anthony William Sloman wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:33:23?PM UTC+10, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.

how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?
Much the same way that domestic broad-band over power wiring systems don\'t end up talking to the next door neigbours,

ah, passwords

Power wiring attenuates high frequency content, and the higher the frequency, the greater the attenuation.

You mean it detects arcing next door 20\' away but not at the far end of this property?

It checks the arc\'s password, of course.

And of course the Ting thing isn\'t a purchase, it\'s a subscription.

 

[John Larkin]

On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf

What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Have you ordered yours yet? Well, why not?

The first year\'s subscription is included. What\'s the price after
that?

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, May 21, 2023 at 1:33:05 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs <bloggs.fred....@gmail.com> wrote:

What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical fires result from arcs.

What makes you thing this? And if a fire softened and degraded the electrical insulation between two power wires could well lead to an arc.

> And the arcs are not usually caused by sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Obviously not, But if you want to create an arc in air it seems like as good a way as any. Starting an arc inside a xenon arc lamp took a 20kV spark, which took a bit of getting in a way that didn\'t blow up the power supply that sustained the arc once initiated.,

> And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

What makes you think this?

> Have you ordered yours yet? Well, why not?

He does say that it is incredible.

> The first year\'s subscription is included. What\'s the price after that?

Why not ask Ting? They might know.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Fred Bloggs]

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05 AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:

On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.

And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.

Have you ordered yours yet? Well, why not?

The \"ting\" is on the way. I\'m positively thrilled.

The first year\'s subscription is included. What\'s the price after
that?

The ad says $99 annual, I think that\'s the subscription price.

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 20 May 2023 15:24:40 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
<bloggs.fredbloggs.fred@gmail.com> wrote:

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:33:05?AM UTC-4, John Larkin wrote:
On Fri, 19 May 2023 09:15:26 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 3:33:23?AM UTC-4, Tabby wrote:
On Thursday, 18 May 2023 at 19:19:26 UTC+1, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 18 May 2023 11:14:12 -0700 (PDT), Fred Bloggs
bloggs.fred...@gmail.com> wrote:

This device seems quite incredible and is installed by simply plugging into an outlet.

The power of modern DSP and ***machine learning***!
Citing AI is more up-to-date marketing.

One downside is it alerts by sending you a text, whereas a more active device like an AFCI disconnects the circuit.

https://www.tingfire.com/how-ting-works/
Buy one and let us know how it works. I could envision a lot of false
alarms.
how could it distinguish arcing here from arcing next door?

Technical writeup:

https://www.hsb-ats.com/content/dam/munichre/hsbct/residential-iot/Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf/_jcr_content/renditions/original./Ting%20Sensor%20Technical%20Paper_10312018R4.pdf
What nonsense. Not all, probably not even a majority, of electrical
fires result from arcs. And the arcs are not usually caused by
sprinkling graphite power onto stripped zip cord.

Enough of them are to get NFPA\'s attention and make AFCI mandatory.


And this gadget won\'t reliably detect arcs.

Of course it does. It\'s based on the same principles as the AFCI and NEC requires those be installed.

In their absurd paper, they measured *current* spikes when graphite
powder was sprinkled onto a stripped zip cord. Then they cut over to
making *voltage* spikes with a DAC and an amp powered by +-15 volts
for the actual development.

In all the references I see, including a few schematics, the AFCI
measures the *current* of a downstream load. They seem to have two
CTs, one diff mode for AFD and one common-mode for GFD. The silly Ting
can\'t measure load current.

Have you ordered yours yet? Well, why not?

The \"ting\" is on the way. I\'m positively thrilled.

Your chances of dying in an electrical-caused fire are about 1 PPM per
year, and I suspect that a minority of those fires result from an arc.

So $99 a year for less than 1 PPM saved life. That\'s over $99 million
a year worth of life insurance, even if Ting is not bogus.

Uncalibrated fear sells.

The first year\'s subscription is included. What\'s the price after
that?

The ad says $99 annual, I think that\'s the subscription price.

 

[Phil Allison]

John Larkin wrote:
----------------------------

Uncalibrated fear sells.

** Arc detection is a recognised safety measure for fire prevention.
Arcing, like smoke, is a warning that bad things are about to happen.
The circuit needs to be de-energised ASAP when arcing current noise is detected, so automatically.

It\'s a real thing, included in modern safety standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuDfDWUrEus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvAH1xNDq3w


..... Phil

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:31:40 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison
<pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
----------------------------

Uncalibrated fear sells.


** Arc detection is a recognised safety measure for fire prevention.
Arcing, like smoke, is a warning that bad things are about to happen.
The circuit needs to be de-energised ASAP when arcing current noise is detected, so automatically.

It\'s a real thing, included in modern safety standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuDfDWUrEus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvAH1xNDq3w


.... Phil

Those are adverts. But they admit that only some electrical fires
result from arcs. I expect that most arcs happen after the fire is
raging. Ohmic heating of wood or fabrics, for example. My wife wanted
me to run an extension cord under a carpet; lots of guys would proudly
show off their electrical skills and do that.

In the USA, junctions like the ones shown in the ads must be inside
fire-resistant boxes.

But those arc detectors are series, current-sensing devices. They can
detect arcs on one branch circuit inside a residence.

Ting is a voltage sensor. It will (actually, might) detect arcs on one
phase of your house and all the nearby apartments or houses that share
that post-transformer phase.

I assume that Fred has ordered one for each phase.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Monday, May 22, 2023 at 12:47:08 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 20 May 2023 23:31:40 -0700 (PDT), Phil Allison <palli...@gmail.com> wrote:
John Larkin wrote:

Uncalibrated fear sells.

Anything that John Larkin doesn\'t want to take seriously is \"uncalibrated fear\".

** Arc detection is a recognised safety measure for fire prevention.
Arcing, like smoke, is a warning that bad things are about to happen.

It fact, it is a warning that bad things are already happening and are likely to lead to worse.

The circuit needs to be de-energised ASAP when arcing current noise is detected, so automatically.

It\'s a real thing, included in modern safety standards.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuDfDWUrEus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qvAH1xNDq3w

Those are adverts. But they admit that only some electrical fires result from arcs.

Rather more electrical fires go on to create arcs.

I expect that most arcs happen after the fire is
raging. Ohmic heating of wood or fabrics, for example. My wife wanted
me to run an extension cord under a carpet; lots of guys would proudly
show off their electrical skills and do that.

In the USA, junctions like the ones shown in the ads must be inside
fire-resistant boxes.

But those arc detectors are series, current-sensing devices. They can detect arcs on one branch circuit inside a residence.

Ting is a voltage sensor. It will (actually, might) detect arcs on one phase of your house and all the nearby apartments or houses that share that post-transformer phase.

The fact that broad band signalling doesn\'t usually get shared in this way suggests that this is
an exaggerated claim. Of course, if one of you neighbour\'s houses or apartments was burning you\'d want to know, so this might not be as much a bug as feature.

> I assume that Fred has ordered one for each phase.

You assume that he is as silly as you are?

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney