When London is submerged and New York is awash...

[Andrew Holme]

John Larkin wrote:

But you'll have to get the whole world, especially the developing
world, to buy in. Coal is plentiful and cheap and dirty. You can't ask
people to throw money at a problem when money is just what they don't
have, and are struggling to get.

Hey, the UK could start by shutting down all their coal mines.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/3534519.stm

"Before the miners' strike in 1984 there were 180,000 miners working at 170
pits. Now there are just 12 working pits and about 6,000 employees. With
the closure of the Selby complex, there will be only nine working pits
left."

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in <ll88u0ld3gkce0l5jm1m2c62mgma2991jq@
4ax.com&gt about 'When London is submerged and New York is awash...', on
Tue, 11 Jan 2005:

Hey, the UK could start by shutting down all their coal mines.

We already have shut almost all of them.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Nico Coesel]

John Larkin <jjlarkin@highSNIPlandTHIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:08:18 GMT, nico@puntnl.niks (Nico Coesel)
wrote:

Winfield Hill <hill_a@t_rowland-dotties-harvard-dot.s-edu> wrote:

Hot times coming up this week in the Antarctic: A collision is imminent
between a 1,200-square-mile iceberg (the size of Long Island) and the
Drygalski Ice Tongue, at one end of the Ross Ice Shelf. As a result,
the huge ice tongue itself may soon break off and float into the ocean.

ETC (estimated time to collision), four days and counting. Film at 11,
http://www.nasa.gov/mpg/104952main_B15A_dates.mpg

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18424796.100
"When London is submerged and New York awash, we may look back on 2004
as the year when the water started rising. Observations collected from
both North and South Poles show that the world's ice sheets and glaciers
are disintegrating faster than anyone thought possible."

Damn, my house is already several meters below sea level.


Where's that? I grew up in New Orleans, about -3 feet, half a mile

The area where I live used to be part an inner sea less than 40 years
ago. Like many places in the Netherlands a dyke was constructed and
the water was pumped away to create land. About 40% of the country is
below sea level.
So, yes, rising sea levels worry me a bit.

--
Reply to nico@nctdevpuntnl (punt=.)
Bedrijven en winkels vindt U op www.adresboekje.nl

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 14:22:14 -0500, the renowned Keith Williams
<krw@att.bizzzz> wrote:

In article <cs18do$9q7$1$830fa17d@news.demon.co.uk>, andrew@nospam.com
says...
John Larkin wrote:
Uh, pardon me, but why do you blame the US for global warming? Why
don't you tell the Chinese and the British to shut down their coal
mines?

Most UK coal mines have closed; we burn natural gas these days.

I guess all the Europeans and Asians and Russians all bicycle
everywhere they go, and just go to sleep when it gets dark.

No, but the USA consumes twice as much energy per capita.

After we shut off the Gulf Stream, you'll catch up.

It could also result in a nice boost to ADM shares if European
agriculture is frozen out of some crops. There's almost always a plus
side. Even in the plagues I bet undertakers and priests did well.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <cqb8u0lut0pqba2qk4gfsaubpeei4ba3kc@4ax.com&gt
about 'When London is submerged and New York is awash...', on Tue, 11
Jan 2005:

Even in the plagues I bet undertakers and priests did well.

Briefly, until they caught it.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Jonathan Kirwan]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:42:40 -0700, Jim Thompson <thegreatone@example.com>
wrote:

And the EuroPeons dare to criticize our social structure?

The Europeans have got a lot right that we don't and a lot of things we've got
right they don't. I don't mind criticism about where we aren't doing as well as
we might, from those who- and in areas where- they have been more successful.

For example, the unified Europeans have a higher life expectancy, lower infant
mortality, lower rates of heart disease and cancer, and their health insurance
covers every person there -- and they pay about 50% per capita for it as we do
for ours. I can get into more detail, but there is a reason for this and it
isn't by accidents of fate. We have something to learn from how they do this.

For example, the unified Europeans, on January 1st of 2002, carried out a
conversion to their new currency throughout a dozen countries and did so without
missing a heartbeat in their commerce. Many pundits here in the US predicted
nothing but disaster, both much earlier and as late as a few days beforehand.
Yet the entire process was pulled off with hardly a hitch, with ATMs shelling
out euros starting at midnight and businesses providing change in euros while
accepting local currency for payment. To achieve it, they had to provide
coinage weighing some 16 times as much as the Eiffel tower, huge quantities of
new paper money, distributed throughout a huge area and in protected caravans.
An impressive tour de force. In the process, the euro has increased by 60%
relative to the dollar and is now seriously threatening the US dollar as THE
RESERVE CURRENCY of the world.

For example, when GE tried to merge with Honeywell, it failed because the EU
refused to embrace the new company. The two companies could have just merged
anyway, with US regulators' blessings, but they didn't. Why? Because the EU
has nearly 1/2 billion people and represents a huge commercial marketplace and
the US cannot treat each country there like individual, "poor cousins." The EU
is now powerful enough, economically, to dictate USA policy whether we like it
or not.

The US has a lot going for it, too. But the US will spiral down hard if it
imagines it can go it alone. We need to hear and understand and realize that
both Americans and Europeans will have to forge better mutual respect and that
will not be done by shutting down communication through comments like the above
one. Hard as that may be sometimes, there is a time to listen.

We Americans ignore the Europeans at our terrible peril. They are bright and
formidable and we need their respect and trust, perhaps even more than they need
ours.

Jon

 

[Ian Stirling]

John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Ian Stirling
root@mauve.demon.co.uk> wrote (in <41e40d09$0$96039$ed2619ec@ptn-nntp-
reader02.plus.net&gt about 'When London is submerged and New York is
awash...', on Tue, 11 Jan 2005:
Paul Burridge <pb@notthisbit.osiris1.co.uk> wrote:
On 11 Jan 2005 14:03:54 GMT, Ian Stirling <root@mauve.demon.co.uk
wrote:

Even fairly minor effects (the shutting down of the Gulf stream, which keeps
much of europe many C warmer than otherwise) may cost more than a sun-shade.

The shutting off of the Gulf Stream is a "minor effect"?? <faint

Few million people die, most of earth remains habitable.
Minor.
Major is earth becomes quasi-venusian, and can't support non-technological
human life anywhere on the planet.

Why would a few million people die? People live in the NE of N. America,
without the benefit of the Gulf Stream or North Atlantic Drift.

Worst case.
Economies collapse, famine, possibly wars ensue.

 

[Clarence_A]

"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:cs1555$34u$1@sparta.btinternet.com...

Damn, my house is already several meters below sea level.

===========================

Don't be too alarmed. You have 50 years to build a sea wall.

The countries around the Eastern Indian Ocean only had 50
seconds.

But USA citizens ought to start thinking about the Earth Warming
they are
causing. Better to spend taxation on that rather than on a
continuing,
futile, lost war in Iraq.

No one here has done anything to cause a change that everyone else
hasn't done! Also nothing that would have an effect on the
weather. But you have to blame someone for your lack of
understanding, don't you?

 

Reg Edwards wrote:

Damn, my house is already several meters below sea level.

===========================

Don't be too alarmed. You have 50 years to build a sea wall.

Don't be silly. The Dutch have been building sea walls (they call them
dikes) for the last thousand years or so, and keep on making them
bigger and shorter. The most recent upgrades of the sea-dikes was after
the 1953 flood tide breached a bunch of the sea-dikes in Zeeland

http://www.thehollandring.com/1953-ramp.shtml

The problem is that dikes had have quite shallow slopes on each side,
and making the dikes higher makes them a lot wider - the Netherlands is
pretty full already, and any significant rise in seal-level would mean
that the populous west of the country would end up being one huge dike.

The countries around the Eastern Indian Ocean only had 50 seconds.

Most of them would have had several hours if there had been a proper
tsunami warning system in the Indian Ocean, as there is in the Pacific.

This is not all that much shorter than the storm surge warnings that
the Dutch get of the sort of exceptionally high tides that breached the
dikes in 1953.

<snip>

--------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

John Larkin wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 18:31:57 +0000, John Woodgate
jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that John Larkin
jjlarkin@highSNIPland
THIStechPLEASEnology.com> wrote (in
2e38u0dfpi59pfcvctsgci2efdaf7ool5b@
4ax.com&gt about 'When London is submerged and New York is awash...',
on
Tue, 11 Jan 2005:

But the world wants to be middle-class, and that takes energy.
Realistically, the only way to keep the CO2 down is to condemn a
lot of
humanity to poverty.

There are two other ways:

- use nuclear power and throw money at the waste storage issue;

- throw money at alternative power sources, which are suffering from
severe lack of investment, and energy-saving.

Nuke is quicker and dirtier, alternative/saving is slower and
cleaner.

But you'll have to get the whole world, especially the developing
world, to buy in. Coal is plentiful and cheap and dirty. You can't
ask
people to throw money at a problem when money is just what they don't
have, and are struggling to get.

Unfortunately, the consequences of global warming are likely to be
severe enough to undo all that lovely economic development. The Chinese
are starting to realise that transferring people off the land and into
the cities so that they can work in factories doesn't make a lot of
sense if the air pollution in the cities gets so bad that workers can't
work.

Hey, the UK could start by shutting down all their coal mines.

They already did, as John Woodgate has pointed out. A great deal of the
U.K. electric power is now generated by burning natural gas - which
produces quite a bit less CO2 per kilowatt than burning coal. It is
pity that the natural gas is running out.
-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 16:47:54 +0100, Bill Sloman wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> schreef in bericht
On 11 Jan 2005 03:59:04 -0800, Winfield Hill

Hot times coming up this week in the Antarctic: A collision is imminent
between a 1,200-square-mile iceberg (the size of Long Island) and the
Drygalski Ice Tongue, at one end of the Ross Ice Shelf. As a result,
the huge ice tongue itself may soon break off and float into the ocean.

ETC (estimated time to collision), four days and counting. Film at 11,
http://www.nasa.gov/mpg/104952main_B15A_dates.mpg

http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=mg18424796.100
"When London is submerged and New York awash, we may look back on 2004
as the year when the water started rising. Observations collected from
both North and South Poles show that the world's ice sheets and glaciers
are disintegrating faster than anyone thought possible."

Well, Win (Chicken Little) Hill, I await the big event ;-)

Since Jim seems to have the same self-indulgent attitude to his diet as he
does to global warming, he's unlikely to be around when it screws up life in
Arizona.

It's a bit different for people who live closer to sea-level, or worry about
the sort of world their kids are going to become senile in.

OK, Bill Sloman. What's your plan, assuming all the chicken littles are
right, and assuming there's a fucking thing anyone can do about it?

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Richard the Dreaded Liber]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 10:45:33 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 09:40:16 -0800, John Larkin

Oh, we're having a dramatic, wet, sorta violent winter here in
California. We had pounding rain, hail, and lightning/thunder last
night, all rare here.

Same here... but sorta fun to watch from the safety of my high,
protected, perch.

Like these guys?
http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050111/capt.la10201112212.western_storm_la102.jpg

Good Luck!
Rich

 

[Clarence_A]

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:gql8u0lcsefvecvtbo8mi7dc4i7r3vok05@4ax.com...

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:42:06 GMT, "Clarence_A" <no@No.com
wrote:

[snip]

I have a lot I bought to retire on, it is 263 feet below sea
level. Has been dry for over two thousand years. Don't expect
it
to change anytime soon! Of course there are mountains over
2,000
feet high between the valley and the Pacific ocean.


But that California mountain range will fall into the Pacific
during
the next earthquake, triggering a tsunami that will fill your
valley
;-)

I'm planning to video tape it too. But it may not happen for a
couple thousand years.

 

[nospam]

"Clarence_A" <no@No.com> wrote:

"Reg Edwards" <g4fgq.regp@ZZZbtinternet.com> wrote in message
news:cs1555$34u$1@sparta.btinternet.com...
Damn, my house is already several meters below sea level.

===========================

Don't be too alarmed. You have 50 years to build a sea wall.

The countries around the Eastern Indian Ocean only had 50
seconds.

But USA citizens ought to start thinking about the Earth Warming
they are
causing. Better to spend taxation on that rather than on a
continuing,
futile, lost war in Iraq.

No one here has done anything to cause a change that everyone else
hasn't done! Also nothing that would have an effect on the
weather. But you have to blame someone for your lack of
understanding, don't you?

It was easier when we had more religion. When shit happened all we had to
do was pray a bit faster. Now when shit happens and looking for something
to blame we can only find ourselves.

 

[Guy Macon]

Major is earth becomes quasi-venusian, and can't support
non-technological human life anywhere on the planet.

Never happened, even whe CO2 was at 20% to 30% instead of
parts per million.

There have, however, been ice ages. Lots of them.

Don't believe me, though; go to
http://www.clearlight.com/~mhieb/WVFossils/ice_ages.html
check the sources and do the math.

 

[John Larkin]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 19:06:05 -0000, "Andrew Holme" <andrew@nospam.com>
wrote:

John Larkin wrote:
Uh, pardon me, but why do you blame the US for global warming? Why
don't you tell the Chinese and the British to shut down their coal
mines?

Most UK coal mines have closed; we burn natural gas these days.

I guess all the Europeans and Asians and Russians all bicycle
everywhere they go, and just go to sleep when it gets dark.

No, but the USA consumes twice as much energy per capita.

That's partly a function of wealth, partly of climate (many parts of
the country need lots of heat in the winter and a/c in the summer to
be comfortable) and partly the damned SUVs. Nothing will change much
until the price of oil and gas go up a bunch.

John

 

[Guy Macon]

Andrew Holme wrote:

John Larkin wrote:

Uh, pardon me, but why do you blame the US for global warming? Why
don't you tell the Chinese and the British to shut down their coal
mines?

Most UK coal mines have closed; we burn natural gas these days.

Ah, but do they send natural gas to Newcastle?

I guess all the Europeans and Asians and Russians all bicycle
everywhere they go, and just go to sleep when it gets dark.

No, but the USA consumes twice as much energy per capita.

Evidence, please.

2001 Energy use: kg oil equivalent per person:

2,336.8 Iceland
1,519.3 Luxembourg
1,406.3 Kuwait
1,007.1 Russian Fed.
983.2 Finland
970.1 Belgium
963.0 Canada
938.4 Norway
887.5 United States
862.1 Sweden
855.7 Germany
838.7 Neth. Antilles
819.6 Denmark
816.1 Switzerland
758.4 United Kingdom
696.4 France
691.8 Estonia
682.5 Ireland
651.9 Netherlands
619.3 Italy
600.2 Uzbekistan
596.1 Slovenia
568.3 Nigeria

Sources: International Energy Agency _Energy Balances of
OECD Countries_ (2003 Edition) and _Energy Balances of
non-OECD Countries_ (2003 Edition), Organization for
Economic Cooperation and Development (OECD), Population
Division of the Department of Economic and Social Affairs
of the United Nations Secretariat, _World Population
Prospects_ (2002 Revision).

 

[keith]

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 15:48:25 -0700, Jim Thompson wrote:

On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 22:42:06 GMT, "Clarence_A" <no@No.com> wrote:

[snip]

I have a lot I bought to retire on, it is 263 feet below sea
level. Has been dry for over two thousand years. Don't expect it
to change anytime soon! Of course there are mountains over 2,000
feet high between the valley and the Pacific ocean.


But that California mountain range will fall into the Pacific during
the next earthquake, triggering a tsunami that will fill your valley
;-)

That's pretty much what happened here, though it was a bit of ice(age)
melt, rather than a tsunami. We have quite a good (almost great) lake as
a result.

--
Keith

 

[Winfield Hill]

Clarence_A wrote...

Jonathan Kirwan wrote...

The EU is now powerful enough, economically, to dictate USA
policy whether we like it or not.

I agree, dealing with a dictatorial and totally irresponsible
government is very difficult. If they decide to "Dictate US
policy" the results will likely spell an end of the EU!

Wrong. They are following strictly-enforced fiscal conservatism;
we are spending like there's no tomorrow, and with no attention to
a disastrously-negative balance of trade. Plus now with GW Bush,
no attention to government deficit spending either. Kindly tell me
what makes you say _they_ are the ones facing disaster? Arrogance
and wishful thinking? We MUST STOP spending more than we make, as
a government, and as a country. And BTW if that means a gasoline
tax, sheesh, then let's bring it on!

The US has a lot going for it, too. But the US will spiral down
hard if it imagines it can go it alone.

I agree, wake up Clarence, and smell the coffee!


--
Thanks,
- Win

 

[Clarence_A]

"keith" wrote

nospam wrote:
"Clarence_A" wrote:
"Reg Edwards" wrote
Damn, my house is already several meters below sea level.
===========================
Don't be too alarmed. You have 50 years to build a sea
wall.
The countries around the Eastern Indian Ocean only had 50
seconds.

But USA citizens ought to start thinking about the Earth
Warming
they are
causing. Better to spend taxation on that rather than on a
continuing,
futile, lost war in Iraq.

No one here has done anything to cause a change that everyone
else
hasn't done! Also nothing that would have an effect on the
weather. But you have to blame someone for your lack of
understanding, don't you?

It was easier when we had more religion. When shit happened
all we had to
do was pray a bit faster. Now when shit happens and looking
for something
to blame we can only find ourselves.

Which makes just as much sense.

Which is still NONE!