What is a women?...

[John Doe]

Sylvia Else wrote:

amdx wrote:

From Google, \"Definitions fro Oxford Languages\"

 How long before Googles deletes these definitions?

 Female
 Noun
an adult female human being.

 Woman
adjective
of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs,
distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova)
which can be fertilized by male gametes.

Dictionaries just tell you how words are used by native speakers of a
language. They cannot help you make judgements about real-life issues.

Only totally corrupt judges. Real judges use dictionaries every day all day
to help make judgments. Semantics is their thing, or at least it\'s supposed
to be.

Judges must be language experts because they must understand the meaning of
written laws. Their job is to apply law to facts. They cannot do that unless
they know what words mean. The meaning of a particular word or phrase is
frequently questioned in court cases. They debate meanings all the time.

A law is only good if its meaning is understood. That is a thing between the
lawmaker and the governed. Meanings are critically important in law.

 

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:21 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mk85$fm2$1@dont-email.me>.

This posting is a public service announcement for any google groups
readers who happen by to point out that the John Doe troll does not even
follow it\'s own rules that it uses to troll other posters.

hIBoJohiRHmp

 

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:33 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mk8g$fm2$2@dont-email.me>.

rSgbtEOXOkTb

 

[Phil Allison]

Jerfoff Dope wrote:
------------------------

Sylvia Else wrote:

Dictionaries just tell you how words are used by native speakers of a
language. They cannot help you make judgements about real-life issues.

Real judges use dictionaries every day all day
to help make judgments.

** Bullshit.

> Semantics is their thing,

** Bullshit.

Judges must be language experts because they must understand the meaning of
written laws.

** Legal jargon is nothing like ordinary language - fuckwit.

FOAD .

 

[John Doe]

So many Australian trolls, from such a squeaky little country...

--
Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com> wrote:

X-Received: by 2002:a37:2f04:0:b0:663:397d:7051 with SMTP id v4-20020a372f04000000b00663397d7051mr9683474qkh.333.1648288579022; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 02:56:19 -0700 (PDT)
X-Received: by 2002:a25:d211:0:b0:633:8b43:3a7a with SMTP id j17-20020a25d211000000b006338b433a7amr14273835ybg.344.1648288578859; Sat, 26 Mar 2022 02:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.misty.com!border2.nntp.dca1.giganews.com!nntp.giganews.com!news-out.google.com!nntp.google.com!postnews.google.com!google-groups.googlegroups.com!not-for-mail
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 02:56:18 -0700 (PDT)
In-Reply-To: <t1mm15$fm2$5@dont-email.me
Injection-Info: google-groups.googlegroups.com; posting-host=118.208.231.160; posting-account=B_tJMAoAAAAmar-1r2H3x4CMhbFEou3n
NNTP-Posting-Host: 118.208.231.160
References: <t1keq0$tv7$1@dont-email.me> <ja7f03Fqb5eU2@mid.individual.net> <t1mm15$fm2$5@dont-email.me
User-Agent: G2/1.0
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <c3ba2c86-cb7d-49f7-9c02-373f68c8ae57n@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: What is a women?
From: Phil Allison <pallison49@gmail.com
Injection-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:56:19 +0000
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=\"UTF-8\"
Lines: 24
Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:664203

Jerfoff Dope wrote:
------------------------
Sylvia Else wrote:

Dictionaries just tell you how words are used by native speakers of a
language. They cannot help you make judgements about real-life issues.

Real judges use dictionaries every day all day
to help make judgments.

** Bullshit.

Semantics is their thing,

** Bullshit.


Judges must be language experts because they must understand the meaning of
written laws.

** Legal jargon is nothing like ordinary language - fuckwit.

FOAD .

 

[John Doe]

Poor liddle Eddie got spanked and just can\'t get over it.

Unless Eddie is nym-shifting, it has never posted anything NORMAL
except when it got a severe spanking...

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.repair/c/MesPLcGU4BE

Is the stalker a nym-shifting troll, or a newbie netcop wannabe?

See also...
Peter Weiner <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward H. <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com>

Eddie is an example for all newbies. Don\'t get spanked!

Spanked Eddie...

--
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.freedyn.de!usenet.goja.nl.eu.org!2.eu.feeder.erje.net!feeder.erje.net!newsfeed.xs4all.nl!newsfeed8.news.xs4all.nl!feeder1.feed.usenet.farm!feed.usenet.farm!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer03.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer02.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx13.ams4.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What is a women?
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,free.spam
References: <t1keq0$tv7$1@dont-email.me> <t1khbs$hgp$1@dont-email.me> <t1l8qs$1oe$1@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org> <t1lb7g$h30$2@dont-email.me> <NTq%J.413695$an1.140642@usenetxs.com> <t1mk85$fm2$1@dont-email.me
Lines: 22
Message-ID: <i_A%J.783089$5u1.558364@usenetxs.com
X-Complaints-To: https://www.astraweb.com/aup
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:25:34 UTC
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:25:34 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 1485
Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:664201 free.spam:17789

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:21 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mk85$fm2$1@dont-email.me>.

This posting is a public service announcement for any google groups
readers who happen by to point out that the John Doe troll does not even
follow it\'s own rules that it uses to troll other posters.

hIBoJohiRHmp

 

[John Doe]

Poor liddle Eddie got spanked and just can\'t get over it.

Unless Eddie is nym-shifting, it has never posted anything NORMAL
except when it got a severe spanking...

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.repair/c/MesPLcGU4BE

Is the stalker a nym-shifting troll, or a newbie netcop wannabe?

See also...
Peter Weiner <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward H. <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com>

Eddie is an example for all newbies. Don\'t get spanked!

Spanked Eddie...

--
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.szaf.org!news.uzoreto.com!news-out.netnews.com!news.alt.net!fdc2.netnews.com!peer02.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx13.ams4.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What is a women?
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,free.spam
References: <t1keq0$tv7$1@dont-email.me> <t1khbs$hgp$1@dont-email.me> <t1l8qs$1oe$1@gonzo.revmaps.no-ip.org> <t1lbgd$v3j$1@gioia.aioe.org> <t1lc8p$pp1$2@dont-email.me> <PTq%J.413696$an1.141210@usenetxs.com> <t1mk8g$fm2$2@dont-email.me
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <k_A%J.783090$5u1.443852@usenetxs.com
X-Complaints-To: https://www.astraweb.com/aup
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:25:36 UTC
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 09:25:36 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 1310
Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:664202 free.spam:17790

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 08:52:33 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mk8g$fm2$2@dont-email.me>.

rSgbtEOXOkTb

 

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:44:10 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mqpq$rq2$1@dont-email.me>.

VdnBgUZoCS74

 

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

NOBODY likes the John Doe troll\'s contentless spam.

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has continued to post incorrectly
formatted USENET articles that are devoid of content (latest example on
Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:44:58 -0000 (UTC) in message-id
<t1mqr9$um0$1@dont-email.me>).

This posting is a public service announcement for any google groups
readers who happen by to point out that the John Doe troll does not even
follow the rules it uses to troll other posters.

kUskknrtb+y+

 

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:45:09 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mqrl$um0$2@dont-email.me>.

srgHdgwZHjST

 

[John Doe]

One, especially a foulmouthed Australian troll like \"Phil\", might be
surprised at how little \"legal jargon\" there is in a courtroom. Yes they do
have a large vocabulary, but that\'s not what they excel at. Language usage,
argument, and the ability to reference case law to support their argument, is
what they excel at.

Lawyers are easy to understand, even when they are lying. Communications is
there thing. Legal jargon might be important when they are talking to a
judge, when the judge is their only audience. But legal jargon most certainly
is not what lawyers employ when they are trying to convince a jury.

A large vocabulary is required because they must, to some degree, be
knowledgeable of practically everything. That\'s a lot of jargon.

 

[John Doe]

Poor liddle Eddie got spanked and just can\'t get over it.

Unless Eddie is nym-shifting, it has never posted anything NORMAL
except when it got a severe spanking...

https://groups.google.com/g/sci.electronics.repair/c/MesPLcGU4BE

Is the stalker a nym-shifting troll, or a newbie netcop wannabe?

See also...
Peter Weiner <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward H. <dtgamer99@gmail.com>
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com>

Eddie is an example for all newbies. Don\'t get spanked!

Spanked Eddie...

--
Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com> wrote:

Path: eternal-september.org!reader02.eternal-september.org!news.freedyn.de!newsreader4.netcologne.de!news.netcologne.de!peer01.ams1!peer.ams1.xlned.com!news.xlned.com!peer03.ams4!peer.am4.highwinds-media.com!news.highwinds-media.com!fx12.ams4.POSTED!not-for-mail
From: Edward Hernandez <dtgamer99@gmail.com
Subject: Re: What is a women?
Newsgroups: sci.electronics.design,free.spam
References: <t1keq0$tv7$1@dont-email.me> <ja7f03Fqb5eU2@mid.individual.net> <t1mm15$fm2$5@dont-email.me> <c3ba2c86-cb7d-49f7-9c02-373f68c8ae57n@googlegroups.com> <t1mqpq$rq2$1@dont-email.me
Lines: 18
Message-ID: <hhC%J.610550$zX2.174188@usenetxs.com
X-Complaints-To: https://www.astraweb.com/aup
NNTP-Posting-Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:54:05 UTC
Date: Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:54:05 GMT
X-Received-Bytes: 1265
Xref: reader02.eternal-september.org sci.electronics.design:664209 free.spam:17794

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has itself posted yet another
incorrectly formatted USENET posting on Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:44:10 -0000
(UTC) in message-id <t1mqpq$rq2$1@dont-email.me>.

VdnBgUZoCS74

 

[Edward Hernandez]

The John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sdhn7c$pkp$4@dont-email.me>:

> The troll doesn\'t even know how to format a USENET post...

And the John Doe troll stated the following in message-id
<sg3kr7$qt5$1@dont-email.me>:

The reason Bozo cannot figure out how to get Google to keep from
breaking its lines in inappropriate places is because Bozo is
CLUELESS...

NOBODY likes the John Doe troll\'s contentless spam.

And yet, the clueless John Doe troll has continued to post incorrectly
formatted USENET articles that are devoid of content (latest example on
Sat, 26 Mar 2022 10:55:39 -0000 (UTC) in message-id
<t1mrfa$um0$4@dont-email.me>).

Further, Troll Doe stated the following in message-id
<svsh05$lbh$5@dont-email.me> posted Fri, 4 Mar 2022 08:01:09 -0000
(UTC):

Compared to other regulars, Bozo contributes practically nothing
except insults to this group.

Yet, since Wed, 5 Jan 2022 04:10:38 -0000 (UTC) Troll Doe\'s post ratio
to USENET has been 55.7% of its posts contributing \"nothing except
insults\" to USENET.

This posting is a public service announcement for any google groups
readers who happen by to point out that the John Doe troll does not even
follow the rules it uses to troll other posters.

o6x0yDhxz5nw

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

bitrex wrote:

On 3/25/2022 6:09 PM, Rickster wrote:
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 5:28:42 PM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 11:22 AM, John Doe wrote:

We will see. Let\'s see if women in fact don\'t do anything about
transgender bullies beating up on girls in sports. That is a huge
question.

Definitely an issue that really connects with the real-world
problems of the regular American. Lol
That\'s interesting, if you mean that it isn\'t important because it
doesn\'t involve most people. Slavery and Jim Crow didn\'t involve
most people.

I like the way you ask him a question, then answer it for him.
Excellent technique.

I like that it does save time and it was a dumb analogy, anyway.

It wasn\'t an analogy. It was a critique of this logic: \"If it doesn\'t
connect with the real-world problems of the regular American\" then it
doesn\'t need to be considered.


--
Defund the Thought Police

 

[Tom Del Rosso]

bitrex wrote:

On 3/25/2022 6:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 6:09 PM, Rickster wrote:
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 5:28:42 PM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 11:22 AM, John Doe wrote:

We will see. Let\'s see if women in fact don\'t do anything about
transgender bullies beating up on girls in sports. That is a huge
question.

Definitely an issue that really connects with the real-world
problems of the regular American. Lol
That\'s interesting, if you mean that it isn\'t important because it
doesn\'t involve most people. Slavery and Jim Crow didn\'t involve
most people.

I like the way you ask him a question, then answer it for him.
Excellent technique.


I like that it does save time and it was a dumb analogy, anyway.

Every time Tucker Carlson gets a time out on Twitter it\'s BASICALLY
the same as the Holocaust

Jim Crow, the Holocaust, and wokeness all warp the definition of
humanity. If eugenics had critics 50 years earlier when it was only a
harmless theory you would have said it doesn\'t connect with the real
world problems of the average person.

--
Defund the Thought Police

 

[John Doe]

bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

Rickster wrote:
Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
John Doe wrote:

We will see. Let\'s see if women in fact don\'t do anything about
transgender bullies beating up on girls in sports. That is a huge
question.

Definitely an issue that really connects with the real-world problems
of the regular American.

That\'s interesting, if you mean that it isn\'t important because it
doesn\'t involve most people. Slavery and Jim Crow didn\'t involve most
people.

I like the way you ask him a question, then answer it for him.
Excellent technique.

I like that it does save time and it was a dumb analogy, anyway.

It was not an analogy.

That\'s like one of our US representatives on Tucker Carlson misusing
\"hypothetical\". She doesn\'t know or doesn\'t care what \"hypothetical\" is...

https://youtu.be/YSxnyA_8RI0?t=593

https://youtu.be/YSxnyA_8RI0?t=912

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Fri, 25 Mar 2022 08:07:12 -0500) it happened amdx
<amdx@knology.net> wrote in <t1keq0$tv7$1@dont-email.me>:

From Google, \"Definitions fro Oxford Languages\"

 How long before Googles deletes these definitions?

 Female
 Noun
an adult female human being.

 Woman
adjective
of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs,
distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova)
which can be fertilized by male gametes.

You need the right spice model.

 

[bitrex]

On 3/26/2022 7:10 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 6:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 6:09 PM, Rickster wrote:
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 5:28:42 PM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 11:22 AM, John Doe wrote:

We will see. Let\'s see if women in fact don\'t do anything about
transgender bullies beating up on girls in sports. That is a huge
question.

Definitely an issue that really connects with the real-world
problems of the regular American. Lol
That\'s interesting, if you mean that it isn\'t important because it
doesn\'t involve most people. Slavery and Jim Crow didn\'t involve
most people.

I like the way you ask him a question, then answer it for him.
Excellent technique.


I like that it does save time and it was a dumb analogy, anyway.

Every time Tucker Carlson gets a time out on Twitter it\'s BASICALLY
the same as the Holocaust

Jim Crow, the Holocaust, and wokeness all warp the definition of
humanity. If eugenics had critics 50 years earlier when it was only a
harmless theory you would have said it doesn\'t connect with the real
world problems of the average person.

The Nazis would\'ve put transsexuals to death, and the Moral Majority in
2022 would like to put them and all \"degenerates\" to death, a direct
lineage of right-wing fascist philosophy. Nothing changed...

 

[bitrex]

On 3/26/2022 7:02 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:

bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 6:09 PM, Rickster wrote:
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 5:28:42 PM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 11:22 AM, John Doe wrote:

We will see. Let\'s see if women in fact don\'t do anything about
transgender bullies beating up on girls in sports. That is a huge
question.

Definitely an issue that really connects with the real-world
problems of the regular American. Lol
That\'s interesting, if you mean that it isn\'t important because it
doesn\'t involve most people. Slavery and Jim Crow didn\'t involve
most people.

I like the way you ask him a question, then answer it for him.
Excellent technique.

I like that it does save time and it was a dumb analogy, anyway.

It wasn\'t an analogy. It was a critique of this logic: \"If it doesn\'t
connect with the real-world problems of the regular American\" then it
doesn\'t need to be considered.

With respect to slavery I\'d say the Civil War was certainly a big
problem for most everyone at the time and a long while after. Some seem
to still be fighting it

 

[John Doe]

Most people, at least most men, would just like to keep the cannibal left
from forcing the rest of us to spectate their confused puppets...

https://youtu.be/-xsyH5qrHyM?t=32

Q: Are you a vet?

A: I\'m not a vet but I know what a dog is.

That is classic.



bitrex <user@example.net> wrote:

On 3/26/2022 7:10 AM, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 6:23 PM, bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 6:09 PM, Rickster wrote:
On Friday, March 25, 2022 at 5:28:42 PM UTC-4, Tom Del Rosso wrote:
bitrex wrote:
On 3/25/2022 11:22 AM, John Doe wrote:

We will see. Let\'s see if women in fact don\'t do anything about
transgender bullies beating up on girls in sports. That is a huge
question.

Definitely an issue that really connects with the real-world
problems of the regular American. Lol
That\'s interesting, if you mean that it isn\'t important because it
doesn\'t involve most people. Slavery and Jim Crow didn\'t involve
most people.

I like the way you ask him a question, then answer it for him.
Excellent technique.


I like that it does save time and it was a dumb analogy, anyway.

Every time Tucker Carlson gets a time out on Twitter it\'s BASICALLY
the same as the Holocaust

Jim Crow, the Holocaust, and wokeness all warp the definition of
humanity. If eugenics had critics 50 years earlier when it was only a
harmless theory you would have said it doesn\'t connect with the real
world problems of the average person.


The Nazis would\'ve put transsexuals to death, and the Moral Majority in
2022 would like to put them and all \"degenerates\" to death, a direct
lineage of right-wing fascist philosophy. Nothing changed...