What happens when solar power is cheaper than grid power?

So your guys' argument is

STICK WITH COAL
because HYDROGEN IS JUST AS POLLUTING AS PETROL
because the engines are not clean
unless you have O2 tanks

No, but then given your track record regarding comprehension
I would expect nothing else.
--

Bob C.

Stop being OBTUSE you flat out LIAR

Herc
 
On Jul 14, 7:08 pm, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:
Graham Cooper wrote:
http://CAMAFFILIATE.COM/ELECTRIC-CAR-PROTOTYPE.png

Herc

No structural integrity and the weight of the battery, motor and dri... errr
rider should make for an amusing contraption to watch come to pieces at
100km/h.

Bike Riders do OK! 200W Bike will keep you going at 50km/hour on the
flat, bit of peddling will get you up to speed quicker without
draining power. i.e. pedal to start from the lights.

This car won't have pedals though.

1000W bike (illegal in Aus) will accelerate nicely for you.

Probably top 100km/hour my 2000W design, briefly.

Air resistance is proportional to the SQUARE of speed.

It's not noticeable at Suburb speeds, you can wear sunnies if you
like.

When you get up to 180km/hr you can't move your helmet left or right
on a motorbike, you won't be moving it back to center the wind
resistance kicks in about 150km/hr.

Herc
 
On Jul 14, 12:50 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 4:47 am, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:









On Jul 10, 2:03 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:56 pm, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:

It remains as stated. Show me an electric car that can tow anything.... I'm
waiting.

Tow with a H2 Car.

Zip around in Dune Buggy size electrics to do the shopping!

Win Win!

Herc

Unless you're run off the road or hit by an 8000 lb SUV or truck.

If all city streets were policed to have nothing exceeding 2000 lb
verticals, then the golf-carts or that of your " Dune Buggy size
electrics" should be perfectly fine and dandy.  Otherwise being energy
efficient and dead at the same time seems a little counter productive.

Bingo!  I've stated this 4 times in the thread already.

The Govt. has to level the field, you can't have a Volvo head on with
the Lean Machine!

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_6404-GM-Lean-Machine.html

80% of car usage is <50KM a day at 50km/hour.

You're designing 2 different applications for 1 car families.

You have to section off Central Metropolis for Electric Only.

The computer drivers won't crash by then, they'll all be bumper car
safe anyway.

All the roads are too narrow in cities anyway, these problems have to
be addressed!

Herc
A proper hybrid fuel-cell w/lithium or HP battery, and offering the HTP
+hydrocarbon direct combustion turbine for the full-sized car, SUV or
maximum 4WD truck shouldn't be a problem at packing a tonne of payload
plus delivering loads of energy on demand, and otherwise capable of
giving us 100+ mpg out of that spendy hydrocarbon fuel.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”
 
On Jul 15, 12:04 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 14, 12:50 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 15, 4:47 am, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 10, 2:03 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:56 pm, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:

It remains as stated. Show me an electric car that can tow anything... I'm
waiting.

Tow with a H2 Car.

Zip around in Dune Buggy size electrics to do the shopping!

Win Win!

Herc

Unless you're run off the road or hit by an 8000 lb SUV or truck.

If all city streets were policed to have nothing exceeding 2000 lb
verticals, then the golf-carts or that of your " Dune Buggy size
electrics" should be perfectly fine and dandy.  Otherwise being energy
efficient and dead at the same time seems a little counter productive..

Bingo!  I've stated this 4 times in the thread already.

The Govt. has to level the field, you can't have a Volvo head on with
the Lean Machine!

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_6404-GM-Lean-Machine.html

80% of car usage is <50KM a day at 50km/hour.

You're designing 2 different applications for 1 car families.

You have to section off Central Metropolis for Electric Only.

The computer drivers won't crash by then, they'll all be bumper car
safe anyway.

All the roads are too narrow in cities anyway, these problems have to
be addressed!

Herc

A proper hybrid fuel-cell w/lithium or HP battery, and offering the HTP
+hydrocarbon direct combustion turbine for the full-sized car, SUV or
maximum 4WD truck shouldn't be a problem at packing a tonne of payload
plus delivering loads of energy on demand, and otherwise capable of
giving us 100+ mpg out of that spendy hydrocarbon fuel.

 http://groups.google.com/groups/search
 http://translate.google.com/#
 Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs)
Main articles: Fuel cell vehicle, Hydrogen vehicle

Automobiles
Although there are currently no Fuel cell vehicles available for
commercial sale, over 20 FCEVs prototypes and demonstration cars have
been released since 2009. Demonstration models include the Honda FCX
Clarity, Toyota FCHV-adv, and Mercedes-Benz F-Cell.[61] As of June
2011 demonstration FCEVs had driven more than 4,800,000 km (3,000,000
mi), with more than 27,000 refuelings.[62] Demonstration fuel cell
vehicles have been produced with "a driving range of more than 400 km
(250 mi) between refueling".[63] They can be refueled in less than 5
minutes.[64] The U.S. Department of Energy's Fuel Cell Technology
Program claims that, as of 2011, fuel cells achieved 53–59% efficiency
at ź power and 42–53% vehicle efficiency at full power,[65] and a
durability of over 120,000 km (75,000 mi) with less than 10%
degradation


Sounds better than a battery!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Fuelcell.jpg/250px-Fuelcell.jpg

Herc
 
On 14/07/2012 5:17 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 7/14/2012 12:49 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-12, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 7/12/2012 9:19 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-11, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

No reason (apart from cost) that cars of this class cannot be fitted
with a modern efficient auto gearbox. Modern engines warm up fast,
the
ECU changes the mixture and timing to promote this, my Forrester
(a not
particularly frugal car) is up to working temperature not much
more than
500 metres after backing out of the drive.

**I don't know the Forrester, but I've never seen an engine reach
operating temperature that quickly (in cool weather). I feel compelled
to doubt your claim. I would expect several km would be about
right. The
Blue Motion engine would likely warm up faste, due to it's small block
mass.

it's pretty amazing what can be done, an engine can be convinced to
produce significantly more heat (and less mechanical energy) merely by
delaying the spark by 15 degrees and opening the throttle a bit.

I discovered this by accident about 9 years ago.


**No doubt. I doubt that the many kg of block mass (and coolant) can be
heated up so rapidly though.

there's a lot of power available. But yeah, looking at google maps it
took
about 2km to warm my engine up starting from about 15 degrees C,


**Sounds about right. Probly an alloy block. An iron block will take a
good deal longer.

FWIW: Back when I was in tech, a mate bought a brand new 4 Litre
Cortina. As I recall, the 4 Litre Cortina was capable of around 100kW.
Tucked away in the handbook was a warning:

"Do not apply full throttle and full braking simultaneously for more
than 10 seconds."

Those words suggested that the auto gearbox could disspiate 100kW for 10
seconds. Not half bad!

The Subaru having a flat 4 motor has 2 small aluminium blocks to heat.
 
Brad Guth wrote:
On Jul 8, 6:34 pm, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:
Graham Cooper wrote:
On Jul 9, 9:38 am, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:
Graham Cooper wrote:
On Jul 9, 8:01 am, Trevor Wilson
tre...@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
you can put your 2 electrodes into rainwater and fill your own
hydrogen tanks.

very efficient too!

**No, it is not. Around 30% efficient, in fact.

Sylvia gave a figure of 90% last year or around there.

The car battery is going to cost you more than petrol

now THAT is how you store the solar power station energy for 18
hours each night and run hydrogen plants overnight.

no batteries - 100% solar. cloud proof.

**Yes, it is, but there are better ways.

Nope! Not unless you use thermal energy and masses and masses of
pissy thermal generators.

Hydrogen is how it's all done.

SOLAR >> ELECTRICITY >> HYDROGEN >> GENERATOR >> ELECTRICITY
V V
V V
ELECTRICITY HYDROGEN >> CARS

You obviously don't know how much power and how slow the process is
to get the hydrogen using electricity.

Impractical, inefficient and not even remotely cost effective - or
environmentally friendly.

There is no free lunch.

Honda HOME Refuelling Station

http://assets.inhabitat.com/wp-content/blogs.dir/1/files/2010/08/hond...

Electrolysis is very efficient.

You put 2 electrodes in distilled water.

RAINWATER WILL WORK!

add a pinch of salt for catalyst!

you get Hydrogen bubbles on one wire and Oxygen on the other!

The electrical power required to generate the hydrogen is greater
than the amount of hydrogen produced. It's not efficient. And it's
slow, so very slow.

H2 is the perfect 100% no losses, works forever, from water,
BATTERY!

IN scuba sized Tanks!

It would take years to produce enough hydrogen to run a hydrogen car
for one day using a 12V battery!

That is not true, but then I'm not such a naysay FUD-master with
energy investments at risk, like yourself.

I'm all for clean, renewable energy... but I'm a realist also.
Fuel cells are capable of delivering 60% efficiency from H2 and O2,
with zero CO2 and even zero NOx if the N2 is never made hot enough or
introduced to begin with.
That's a lot of ifs, buts and maybes... but they don't change the facts as
they stand today. It's an inefficient process.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
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On 14/07/2012 7:08 PM, Clocky wrote:
Graham Cooper wrote:
On Jul 14, 11:41 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
On 14/07/2012 8:40 AM, Graham Cooper wrote:

http://CAMAFFILIATE.COM/ELECTRIC-CAR-PROTOTYPE.png

Here's my Electric Car design..

It has
virtual pivot independent real wheel suspension
shock absorber front wheel suspension
dual 1000W Electric Motors with 100km range
dual 30AMP-HOUR Lithium Batteries
rack and pinion steering
rear vehicle passenger access
CREE LED headlamps

Total cost $3000 + CONSTRUCTION

Herc

Hmmm...

No air conditioning.

No weather protection.

No air bags.

Zero crash-worthiness.

High drag coeffecient.

No bluetooth.

Sylvia.

It's got 4 wheel disc brakes... but you need 4 hands to use all 4 at
once!

http://CAMAFFILIATE.COM/ELECTRIC-CAR-PROTOTYPE.png

Herc

No structural integrity and the weight of the battery, motor and dri... errr
rider should make for an amusing contraption to watch come to pieces at
100km/h.

Doesn't matter. Greenies don't include the CO2 released by rotting human
corpses when calculating greenhouse impacts.

Sylvia.
 
On Jul 12, 3:45 am, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 12, 6:50 pm, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:









On 12/07/2012 6:04 PM, Graham Cooper wrote:

"The H2 engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!"

True statement!

As I said.. even it was an issue, it just raises the question whether
it is necessary to supply O2 Tanks on top of H2.

Herc

I think Rotary Engines are more suitable for H2, I heard the fuel
intake is separate to the combustion section so it can handle higher
temperatures.

but H2 is the Hard Problem!  It's not TOO HARD - 2H.  It's H2!   :eek:|

  *****

The Easy Problem is 80% of car usage is <50km at 60km/hour with one
person load.

If people had short range city cars (ELECTRIC) and H2 for the highway
and towing, then Electric is ideal for a city environment!

The problem is "competition", the govt. has to level the field.  When
Volvo brought out cars 30% heavier than the norm they fared better in
front on crashes!  10G impact if it slows you down, the smaller car
suffers 30G impact going from forward to backward in the same time
frame.

With specialised cars for short range in cities, and H2 for highways,
you could abandon the 1 tonne 4WD style for Electrics, go for a Dune
Buggy style with a compact perspex shell.   Keeps pollution out of the
city too!

Yes, keeps it firmly where it belongs - either around the coal-fired
power stations used to generate the electricity for electrolysis, or
around the steam reformation plants.

Sylvia.

electricity for electrolysis is not a 24 hour application.

You need to get some sun.

Herc
William Mook had that one nicely covered as of a decade ago, and not
hardly a soul in Usenet/newsgroups ever cared, other than to topic/
author stalk and bash his ideas into the ground. Perhaps it was the
all-knowing mindset of Mook that made his proposed use of his solar
derived hydrogen sound a bit too good to be true, although his
creating of relatively cheap hydrogen and oxygen from water and solar
energy (even at twice his proposed cost) wasn't any ruse or spoof, and
that hydrogen as used in a fuel-cell can produce 60% efficiency with
as near to zero environmental impact as energy gets.

Relatively low cost hydrogen is certainly not a problem.

The problem is with the closed mindset of most individuals and that of
government and Big Energy that wants absolutely nothing to do with any
of it unless it's only provided by their Oligarch Rothschild cartel.
Steven Chu wasn't of any help either.

I happen to prefer the mobile use or application of HTP along with the
high quality of liquid synfuel hydrocarbons derived from Mokenergy
coal, as a dual-fuel method of providing terrific energy density from
a very small internal combustion engine that could power any full
sized hybrid car, truck or bus of any size without those energy or
operational range limitations of conventional hybrids. A hydrogen
peroxide battery is also a terrific application of solar energy
derived HP, and Mook's clean synfuel from coal via his hydrogen from
solar energy, was yet another terrific win-win for all of us.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”
 
On Jul 14, 7:44 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 12:04 pm, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:









On Jul 14, 12:50 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 15, 4:47 am, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 10, 2:03 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jul 10, 10:56 pm, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:

It remains as stated. Show me an electric car that can tow anything... I'm
waiting.

Tow with a H2 Car.

Zip around in Dune Buggy size electrics to do the shopping!

Win Win!

Herc

Unless you're run off the road or hit by an 8000 lb SUV or truck.

If all city streets were policed to have nothing exceeding 2000 lb
verticals, then the golf-carts or that of your " Dune Buggy size
electrics" should be perfectly fine and dandy.  Otherwise being energy
efficient and dead at the same time seems a little counter productive.

Bingo!  I've stated this 4 times in the thread already.

The Govt. has to level the field, you can't have a Volvo head on with
the Lean Machine!

http://www.imcdb.org/vehicle_6404-GM-Lean-Machine.html

80% of car usage is <50KM a day at 50km/hour.

You're designing 2 different applications for 1 car families.

You have to section off Central Metropolis for Electric Only.

The computer drivers won't crash by then, they'll all be bumper car
safe anyway.

All the roads are too narrow in cities anyway, these problems have to
be addressed!

Herc

A proper hybrid fuel-cell w/lithium or HP battery, and offering the HTP
+hydrocarbon direct combustion turbine for the full-sized car, SUV or
maximum 4WD truck shouldn't be a problem at packing a tonne of payload
plus delivering loads of energy on demand, and otherwise capable of
giving us 100+ mpg out of that spendy hydrocarbon fuel.

 http://groups.google.com/groups/search
 http://translate.google.com/#
 Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_cell

Fuel cell electric vehicles (FCEVs)
Main articles: Fuel cell vehicle, Hydrogen vehicle

Automobiles
Although there are currently no Fuel cell vehicles available for
commercial sale, over 20 FCEVs prototypes and demonstration cars have
been released since 2009. Demonstration models include the Honda FCX
Clarity, Toyota FCHV-adv, and Mercedes-Benz F-Cell.[61] As of June
2011 demonstration FCEVs had driven more than 4,800,000 km (3,000,000
mi), with more than 27,000 refuelings.[62] Demonstration fuel cell
vehicles have been produced with "a driving range of more than 400 km
(250 mi) between refueling".[63] They can be refueled in less than 5
minutes.[64] The U.S. Department of Energy's Fuel Cell Technology
Program claims that, as of 2011, fuel cells achieved 53–59% efficiency
at ź power and 42–53% vehicle efficiency at full power,[65] and a
durability of over 120,000 km (75,000 mi) with less than 10%
degradation

Sounds better than a battery!

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/e6/Fuelcell.jpg...

Herc
Actually a battery that's using 50% hydrogen peroxide is simply
another terrific notion to go along with Mokenergy synfuel from coal,
or just to directly utilize his solar generated hydrogen and oxygen
which can't be all that insurmountable nor spendy if we truly wanted
to develop the cleaner alternatives of renewable energy.

Extremely high pressure storage tanks for automotive hydrogen are
doable, although the next logical step down is to simply provide HTP
which is a liquid that can be directly used by itself or along with a
small amount of hydrocarbons in a dual-fuel engine that requires no
atmospheric intake whatsoever, and offers a clean exhaust that we can
all live with.

A hydrogen plus HTP and synfuel from coal based economy, along with
quality fuel-cell technology and dual-fuel internal combustion engines
is a perfectly good plan, even if it's not for everyone.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”
 
On Jul 15, 3:11 am, "Clocky" <notg...@happen.com> wrote:
Brad Guth wrote:

It would take years to produce enough hydrogen to run a hydrogen car
for one day using a 12V battery!

That is not true, but then I'm not such a naysay FUD-master with
energy investments at risk, like yourself.

I'm all for clean, renewable energy... but I'm a realist also.

Fuel cells are capable of delivering 60% efficiency from H2 and O2,
with zero CO2 and even zero NOx if the N2 is never made hot enough or
introduced to begin with.

That's a lot of ifs, buts and maybes... but they don't change the facts as
they stand today. It's an inefficient process.
The all-inclusive benefits far outweigh any negatives that you and
others of your mainstream perpetual naysay kind always have to offer.

Mokenergy derived hydrogen and oxygen from solar energy is relatively
cheap and perhaps gets us as close to renewable as it ever needs to
get. Unfortunately there's no enforced law making any of us use such
technology, although there are enforced policies making us go to war
over hydrocarbons and to otherwise pay for its Karma.

Are you also opposed to thorium fueled reactors?

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
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On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 12:52:07 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Graham Cooper
<grahamcooper7@gmail.com>:

So your guys' argument is

STICK WITH COAL
because HYDROGEN IS JUST AS POLLUTING AS PETROL
because the engines are not clean
unless you have O2 tanks
and the Electrolysis to turn 2H2O -> 2H2 + O2
would need even more Coal to run at night
to employ fuel tank fillers night shift
and Solar will increase pollution anyway because of night time varying
load inefficiencies.


No, but then given your track record regarding comprehension
I would expect nothing else.

Stop being OBTUSE you flat out LIAR
Oh, the irony...
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
 
On Sat, 14 Jul 2012 11:05:47 -0700, the following appeared
in sci.skeptic, posted by Bob Casanova <nospam@buzz.off>:

On Thu, 12 Jul 2012 14:16:12 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Graham Cooper
grahamcooper7@gmail.com>:

On Jul 13, 2:58 am, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Wed, 11 Jul 2012 12:59:47 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Graham Cooper
grahamcoop...@gmail.com>:



On Jul 12, 5:16 am, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Tue, 10 Jul 2012 23:18:32 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Graham Cooper
grahamcoop...@gmail.com>:

On Jul 11, 10:18 am, Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:
On 11/07/2012 6:26 AM, Graham Cooper wrote:

On Jul 11, 2:42 am, Bob Casanova <nos...@buzz.off> wrote:
On Mon, 9 Jul 2012 19:43:55 -0700 (PDT), the following
appeared in sci.skeptic, posted by Graham Cooper
grahamcoop...@gmail.com>:

On Jul 10, 12:04 pm, j...@specsol.spam.sux.com wrote:
In sci.physics Sylvia Else <syl...@not.here.invalid> wrote:

On 10/07/2012 1:36 AM, Graham Cooper wrote:

The H2 engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!

An H2 burning air breathing internal combustion engine gives of oxides
of nitrgoen.

Sylvia.

And LOTS of them due to the flame temperatures.

not mentioned in Wikipedia.

So? Learn a bit of chemistry; Wiki isn't a comprehensive
source.

What is the Toxicity of the Nitrous compounds.  It's a secondary
reaction not even worth a mention in the list of hurdles.

Perhaps it's not, but an engine that emits oxides of nitrogen cannot
reasobably be called clean, which is what you did.
Ohhh sorrrrry chops..   here pull my finger!

Why, do you want to emit sulfur dioxide? Anyway, nice
tapdance around the fact that your claim was refuted.
What claim?  exactly.

ADD getting you down? It's right there at the top: "The H2
engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!"
Although the first sentence is correct (but would also be
correct for any existing IC engine, since one of the exhaust
components resulting from burning hydrocarbons is water,
making it irrelevant), the second is not, since NOx isn't
"clean" by anyone's definition.

Your claim is not even listed in Wikipedia as a hurdle.

Missed that part about Wiki not being a comprehensive
source, did you? ADD again? Or did you actually mean
"relatively clean" and just got carried away by the wonder
of it all?

How do you get Nitrates from H2 and O2?

Actually, "oxides of nitrogen". From Sylvia's comment at the
top of this post:

"An H2 burning air breathing internal combustion engine
gives of oxides of nitrogen." (Well, "nitrgoen", but we all
get our fnigers out of sync occasionally.)

Nitrogen makes up 80% of air, and the flame temperatures
associated with burning H2 in air guarantee that NOx will
form.

Any more attempts to evade the issue that air-breathing H2
engines are *not* clean?
[Crickets...]

Run away! Run away!
--

Bob C.

"Evidence confirming an observation is
evidence that the observation is wrong."
- McNameless
 
On 7/15/2012 5:25 PM, keithr wrote:
On 14/07/2012 5:17 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 7/14/2012 12:49 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-12, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 7/12/2012 9:19 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-11, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:

No reason (apart from cost) that cars of this class cannot be fitted
with a modern efficient auto gearbox. Modern engines warm up fast,
the
ECU changes the mixture and timing to promote this, my Forrester
(a not
particularly frugal car) is up to working temperature not much
more than
500 metres after backing out of the drive.

**I don't know the Forrester, but I've never seen an engine reach
operating temperature that quickly (in cool weather). I feel
compelled
to doubt your claim. I would expect several km would be about
right. The
Blue Motion engine would likely warm up faste, due to it's small
block
mass.

it's pretty amazing what can be done, an engine can be convinced to
produce significantly more heat (and less mechanical energy) merely by
delaying the spark by 15 degrees and opening the throttle a bit.

I discovered this by accident about 9 years ago.


**No doubt. I doubt that the many kg of block mass (and coolant) can be
heated up so rapidly though.

there's a lot of power available. But yeah, looking at google maps it
took
about 2km to warm my engine up starting from about 15 degrees C,


**Sounds about right. Probly an alloy block. An iron block will take a
good deal longer.

FWIW: Back when I was in tech, a mate bought a brand new 4 Litre
Cortina. As I recall, the 4 Litre Cortina was capable of around 100kW.
Tucked away in the handbook was a warning:

"Do not apply full throttle and full braking simultaneously for more
than 10 seconds."

Those words suggested that the auto gearbox could disspiate 100kW for 10
seconds. Not half bad!

The Subaru having a flat 4 motor has 2 small aluminium blocks to heat.
**Indeed. Which, when you think on it, should take a little longer than
a single block.



--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au
 
On 10/07/2012 1:36 AM, Graham Cooper wrote:

The H2 engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!
LOOK ABOVE!




An H2 burning air breathing internal combustion engine gives of oxides
of nitrgoen.

Sylvia.

And LOTS of them due to the flame temperatures.

not mentioned in Wikipedia.

So? Learn a bit of chemistry; Wiki isn't a comprehensive
source.

What is the Toxicity of the Nitrous compounds.  It's a secondary
reaction not even worth a mention in the list of hurdles.

Perhaps it's not, but an engine that emits oxides of nitrogen cannot
reasobably be called clean, which is what you did.
Ohhh sorrrrry chops..   here pull my finger!

Why, do you want to emit sulfur dioxide? Anyway, nice
tapdance around the fact that your claim was refuted.
What claim?  exactly.

ADD getting you down? It's right there at the top: "The H2
engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!"
Although the first sentence is correct (but would also be
correct for any existing IC engine, since one of the exhaust
components resulting from burning hydrocarbons is water,
making it irrelevant), the second is not, since NOx isn't
"clean" by anyone's definition.

Your claim is not even listed in Wikipedia as a hurdle.

Missed that part about Wiki not being a comprehensive
source, did you? ADD again? Or did you actually mean
"relatively clean" and just got carried away by the wonder
of it all?

How do you get Nitrates from H2 and O2?

Actually, "oxides of nitrogen". From Sylvia's comment at the
top of this post:

"An H2 burning air breathing internal combustion engine
gives of oxides of nitrogen." (Well, "nitrgoen", but we all
get our fnigers out of sync occasionally.)

Nitrogen makes up 80% of air, and the flame temperatures
associated with burning H2 in air guarantee that NOx will
form.

Any more attempts to evade the issue that air-breathing H2
engines are *not* clean?

[Crickets...]

Run away! Run away!
--

Bob C.

you constantly rearrange facts and drivel non existent arguments.

****

H2 is not only EFFICIENT AND CHEAP! It's FREE!

Imagine if a solar panel (a sheet of silicon - like putting cardboard
in perspex)

was $5/square meter?

The Petrol Engine is only getting 30% of the chemical energy from
fuel.

The H2 comes from RAINWATER !!!
Electrolysis is powered by the SUN !!!

You don't need H2 production at night! That's the point! It's stored
SOLAR ENERGY.

O2 (if it's even needed) comes from the OTHER ELECTRODE
produced at the same ratio that it's used for power generation.

Herc
 
On Jul 15, 2:22 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 10/07/2012 1:36 AM, Graham Cooper wrote:

The H2 engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!

LOOK ABOVE!











An H2 burning air breathing internal combustion engine gives of oxides
of nitrgoen.

Sylvia.

And LOTS of them due to the flame temperatures.

not mentioned in Wikipedia.

So? Learn a bit of chemistry; Wiki isn't a comprehensive
source.

What is the Toxicity of the Nitrous compounds.  It's a secondary
reaction not even worth a mention in the list of hurdles.

Perhaps it's not, but an engine that emits oxides of nitrogen cannot
reasobably be called clean, which is what you did.
Ohhh sorrrrry chops..   here pull my finger!

Why, do you want to emit sulfur dioxide? Anyway, nice
tapdance around the fact that your claim was refuted.
What claim?  exactly.

ADD getting you down? It's right there at the top: "The H2
engine gives off WATER VAPOUR for exhaust!  It's clean!"
Although the first sentence is correct (but would also be
correct for any existing IC engine, since one of the exhaust
components resulting from burning hydrocarbons is water,
making it irrelevant), the second is not, since NOx isn't
"clean" by anyone's definition.

Your claim is not even listed in Wikipedia as a hurdle.

Missed that part about Wiki not being a comprehensive
source, did you? ADD again? Or did you actually mean
"relatively clean" and just got carried away by the wonder
of it all?

How do you get Nitrates from H2 and O2?

Actually, "oxides of nitrogen". From Sylvia's comment at the
top of this post:

"An H2 burning air breathing internal combustion engine
gives of oxides of nitrogen." (Well, "nitrgoen", but we all
get our fnigers out of sync occasionally.)

Nitrogen makes up 80% of air, and the flame temperatures
associated with burning H2 in air guarantee that NOx will
form.

Any more attempts to evade the issue that air-breathing H2
engines are *not* clean?

[Crickets...]

Run away! Run away!
--

Bob C.

you constantly rearrange facts and drivel non existent arguments.

****

H2 is not only EFFICIENT AND CHEAP!  It's FREE!

Imagine if a solar panel (a sheet of silicon - like putting cardboard
in perspex)

was $5/square meter?

The Petrol Engine is only getting 30% of the chemical energy from
fuel.

The H2 comes from RAINWATER !!!
Electrolysis is powered by the SUN !!!

You don't need H2 production at night!  That's the point!  It's stored
SOLAR ENERGY.

O2 (if it's even needed) comes from the OTHER ELECTRODE
produced at the same ratio that it's used for power generation.

Herc
It has actually been better put across by William Mook (aka
Mokenergy), and the mainstream status-quo of forever hydrocarbons
hasn't bought into any of it.

Yes, H2 can become relatively cheap, though perhaps not ever as cheap
as offered by William Mook, and otherwise it's ideally suited for fuel-
cell applications, as well as for dozens of applications in
commercial, industrial and retail/end-use.

Supposedly the Boeing solar panel division (Spectrolab) has actually
broken the 100% PV efficiency by converting IR through UV, although
that's with a rather spendy advanced product that most of us can't
possibly afford. Commercially and otherwise for space or military
applications they currently offer a spendy 43% efficiency factor.
http://www.spectrolab.com/DataSheets/PV/pv_tech/msce.pdf

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”
 
The H2 comes from RAINWATER !!!
Electrolysis is powered by the SUN !!!

You don't need H2 production at night!  That's the point!  It's stored
SOLAR ENERGY.

O2 (if it's even needed) comes from the OTHER ELECTRODE
produced at the same ratio that it's used for power generation.

Herc

It has actually been better put across by William Mook (aka
Mokenergy), and the mainstream status-quo of forever hydrocarbons
hasn't bought into any of it.

Yes, H2 can become relatively cheap, though perhaps not ever as cheap
as offered by William Mook, and otherwise it's ideally suited for fuel-
cell applications, as well as for dozens of applications in
commercial, industrial and retail/end-use.

Supposedly the Boeing solar panel division (Spectrolab) has actually
broken the 100% PV efficiency by converting IR through UV, although
that's with a rather spendy advanced product that most of us can't
possibly afford.  Commercially and otherwise for space or military
applications they currently offer a spendy 43% efficiency factor.
 http://www.spectrolab.com/DataSheets/PV/pv_tech/msce.pdf

 http://groups.google.com/groups/search
 http://translate.google.com/#
 Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”

Yeh but the sunlight just hits the DIRT anyway!

there's a million spare acres outside every city.

You could use 0.00000001% efficient Solar Panels and just put up more
of them!

Sure you have to get the technology as economical as feasible 1st.

This isn't a put-as-many-panels-on-your-roof-as-you-can-fit problem!

If you can mass produce 5% efficient panels for 1/4 the price of 10%
efficient panels then that's what you would use at a Power/H2 plant.

Herc
 
On Jul 15, 4:41 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:
The H2 comes from RAINWATER !!!
Electrolysis is powered by the SUN !!!

You don't need H2 production at night!  That's the point!  It's stored
SOLAR ENERGY.

O2 (if it's even needed) comes from the OTHER ELECTRODE
produced at the same ratio that it's used for power generation.

Herc

It has actually been better put across by William Mook (aka
Mokenergy), and the mainstream status-quo of forever hydrocarbons
hasn't bought into any of it.

Yes, H2 can become relatively cheap, though perhaps not ever as cheap
as offered by William Mook, and otherwise it's ideally suited for fuel-
cell applications, as well as for dozens of applications in
commercial, industrial and retail/end-use.

Supposedly the Boeing solar panel division (Spectrolab) has actually
broken the 100% PV efficiency by converting IR through UV, although
that's with a rather spendy advanced product that most of us can't
possibly afford.  Commercially and otherwise for space or military
applications they currently offer a spendy 43% efficiency factor.
 http://www.spectrolab.com/DataSheets/PV/pv_tech/msce.pdf

 http://groups.google.com/groups/search
 http://translate.google.com/#
 Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”

Yeh but the sunlight just hits the DIRT anyway!

there's a million spare acres outside every city.

You could use 0.00000001% efficient Solar Panels and just put up more
of them!

Sure you have to get the technology as economical as feasible 1st.

This isn't a put-as-many-panels-on-your-roof-as-you-can-fit problem!

If you can mass produce 5% efficient panels for 1/4 the price of 10%
efficient panels then that's what you would use at a Power/H2 plant.

Herc
Exactly correct, and I never once accepted the higher level of
conversion efficiency touted by Mokenergy, although the basic concept
of utilizing such spare/surplus land for accommodating his custom
solar collectors was never in doubt of offering a perfectly viable
clean energy alternative. Mook's hydrogen even at twice his suggested
production cost was still a very good return on investment, not to
mention squeaky clean and renewable, other than solar farm maintenance
that would always represent a small carbon footprint.

A solar farm using 20% efficient PVs would still be a whole lot less
all-inclusive spendy than any conventional nuclear reactor, not only
per GW but per acreage once everything (aka birth-to-grave) about
conventional nuclear generated energy is taken into account. Mass
produced PVs by China and India could do those items for as little as
$1/watt installed, and because hardly any skilled labor is necessary
once this solar farm process is set in motion is why the annual upkeep
shouldn't have to exceed 10 cents per installed watt (roughly $7.50/m2/
yr).

Once the H2 and Ox plus amounts of LH2 and LOx is made and stored it
can be further distributed and/or directly used on demand in order to
generate a great deal of clean energy via fuel-cells.

You really should compare notes with Mook, although be forewarned that
he usually has to run the whole show, taking most if not all of the
credit for the best methods of doing just about everything. Otherwise
Mook is a relatively harmless but way better than average educated
person that only happens to come across as a know-it-all.

http://groups.google.com/groups/search
http://translate.google.com/#
Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”
 
On 16/07/2012 6:32 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 7/15/2012 5:25 PM, keithr wrote:
On 14/07/2012 5:17 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 7/14/2012 12:49 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-12, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 7/12/2012 9:19 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-11, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au
wrote:

No reason (apart from cost) that cars of this class cannot be
fitted
with a modern efficient auto gearbox. Modern engines warm up fast,
the
ECU changes the mixture and timing to promote this, my Forrester
(a not
particularly frugal car) is up to working temperature not much
more than
500 metres after backing out of the drive.

**I don't know the Forrester, but I've never seen an engine reach
operating temperature that quickly (in cool weather). I feel
compelled
to doubt your claim. I would expect several km would be about
right. The
Blue Motion engine would likely warm up faste, due to it's small
block
mass.

it's pretty amazing what can be done, an engine can be convinced to
produce significantly more heat (and less mechanical energy)
merely by
delaying the spark by 15 degrees and opening the throttle a bit.

I discovered this by accident about 9 years ago.


**No doubt. I doubt that the many kg of block mass (and coolant)
can be
heated up so rapidly though.

there's a lot of power available. But yeah, looking at google maps it
took
about 2km to warm my engine up starting from about 15 degrees C,


**Sounds about right. Probly an alloy block. An iron block will take a
good deal longer.

FWIW: Back when I was in tech, a mate bought a brand new 4 Litre
Cortina. As I recall, the 4 Litre Cortina was capable of around 100kW.
Tucked away in the handbook was a warning:

"Do not apply full throttle and full braking simultaneously for more
than 10 seconds."

Those words suggested that the auto gearbox could disspiate 100kW for 10
seconds. Not half bad!
It wouldn't be the gearbox dissipating that power (unless the bands
needed adjusting) it would be the torque converter.

The Subaru having a flat 4 motor has 2 small aluminium blocks to heat.


**Indeed. Which, when you think on it, should take a little longer than
a single block.
Having thought about it, no it shouldn't. I went out this morning, the
ambient temperature was 11 C, hot air started coming out of the heater
at about 0.4Km, the temperature was in the working zone just before
0.7Km. Car manufacturers have been using the ECU setting to promote fast
warm up for some years in order to meet pollution requirements.
 
On 7/16/2012 12:54 PM, keithr wrote:
On 16/07/2012 6:32 AM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 7/15/2012 5:25 PM, keithr wrote:
On 14/07/2012 5:17 PM, Trevor Wilson wrote:
On 7/14/2012 12:49 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-12, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au> wrote:
On 7/12/2012 9:19 PM, Jasen Betts wrote:
On 2012-07-11, Trevor Wilson <trevor@SPAMBLOCKrageaudio.com.au
wrote:

No reason (apart from cost) that cars of this class cannot be
fitted
with a modern efficient auto gearbox. Modern engines warm up fast,
the
ECU changes the mixture and timing to promote this, my Forrester
(a not
particularly frugal car) is up to working temperature not much
more than
500 metres after backing out of the drive.

**I don't know the Forrester, but I've never seen an engine reach
operating temperature that quickly (in cool weather). I feel
compelled
to doubt your claim. I would expect several km would be about
right. The
Blue Motion engine would likely warm up faste, due to it's small
block
mass.

it's pretty amazing what can be done, an engine can be convinced to
produce significantly more heat (and less mechanical energy)
merely by
delaying the spark by 15 degrees and opening the throttle a bit.

I discovered this by accident about 9 years ago.


**No doubt. I doubt that the many kg of block mass (and coolant)
can be
heated up so rapidly though.

there's a lot of power available. But yeah, looking at google maps it
took
about 2km to warm my engine up starting from about 15 degrees C,


**Sounds about right. Probly an alloy block. An iron block will take a
good deal longer.

FWIW: Back when I was in tech, a mate bought a brand new 4 Litre
Cortina. As I recall, the 4 Litre Cortina was capable of around 100kW.
Tucked away in the handbook was a warning:

"Do not apply full throttle and full braking simultaneously for more
than 10 seconds."

Those words suggested that the auto gearbox could disspiate 100kW
for 10
seconds. Not half bad!

It wouldn't be the gearbox dissipating that power (unless the bands
needed adjusting) it would be the torque converter.

The Subaru having a flat 4 motor has 2 small aluminium blocks to heat.


**Indeed. Which, when you think on it, should take a little longer than
a single block.

Having thought about it, no it shouldn't. I went out this morning, the
ambient temperature was 11 C, hot air started coming out of the heater
at about 0.4Km, the temperature was in the working zone just before
0.7Km. Car manufacturers have been using the ECU setting to promote fast
warm up for some years in order to meet pollution requirements.
**Thanks for doing the test. That is certainly a little quicker than
vehicles I have experience with. I've never driven a Subaru from cold. I
still reckon the Subaru should take a little longer, due to the greater
total block mass (required for strength) and greater surface area.

--
Trevor Wilson www.rageaudio.com.au
 
On Jul 16, 11:25 am, Brad Guth <bradg...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Jul 15, 4:41 pm, Graham Cooper <grahamcoop...@gmail.com> wrote:


The H2 comes from RAINWATER !!!
Electrolysis is powered by the SUN !!!

You don't need H2 production at night!  That's the point!  It's stored
SOLAR ENERGY.

O2 (if it's even needed) comes from the OTHER ELECTRODE
produced at the same ratio that it's used for power generation.

Herc

It has actually been better put across by William Mook (aka
Mokenergy), and the mainstream status-quo of forever hydrocarbons
hasn't bought into any of it.

Yes, H2 can become relatively cheap, though perhaps not ever as cheap
as offered by William Mook, and otherwise it's ideally suited for fuel-
cell applications, as well as for dozens of applications in
commercial, industrial and retail/end-use.

Supposedly the Boeing solar panel division (Spectrolab) has actually
broken the 100% PV efficiency by converting IR through UV, although
that's with a rather spendy advanced product that most of us can't
possibly afford.  Commercially and otherwise for space or military
applications they currently offer a spendy 43% efficiency factor.
 http://www.spectrolab.com/DataSheets/PV/pv_tech/msce.pdf

 http://groups.google.com/groups/search
 http://translate.google.com/#
 Brad Guth,Brad_Guth,Brad.Guth,BradGuth,BG,Guth Usenet/”Guth Venus”

Yeh but the sunlight just hits the DIRT anyway!

there's a million spare acres outside every city.

You could use 0.00000001% efficient Solar Panels and just put up more
of them!

Sure you have to get the technology as economical as feasible 1st.

This isn't a put-as-many-panels-on-your-roof-as-you-can-fit problem!

If you can mass produce 5% efficient panels for 1/4 the price of 10%
efficient panels then that's what you would use at a Power/H2 plant.

Herc

Exactly correct, and I never once accepted the higher level of
conversion efficiency touted by Mokenergy, although the basic concept
of utilizing such spare/surplus land for accommodating his custom
solar collectors was never in doubt of offering a perfectly viable
clean energy alternative.  Mook's hydrogen even at twice his suggested
production cost was still a very good return on investment, not to
mention squeaky clean and renewable, other than solar farm maintenance
that would always represent a small carbon footprint.

A solar farm using 20% efficient PVs would still be a whole lot less
all-inclusive spendy than any conventional nuclear reactor, not only
per GW but per acreage once everything (aka birth-to-grave) about
conventional nuclear generated energy is taken into account.  Mass
produced PVs by China and India could do those items for as little as
$1/watt installed,

it's cheap as chips! another alternative is thin black piping like
that used
on roofs to solar heat pools.

You can collect heat from the sun very cheaply, but the peltier
devices
to get electricity from hot water would cost more than solar panels.

Or a transparent plastic cover over a shallow Lake would heat up in
only
a couple days. Those bubble wrap pool covers are like steam baths in
summer!

Stirling Engines would only be say DELTA 30 DEGREES / 270 efficient.

My Evap Cooler Droplet Catching design was meant to get the COLD
Terminal
down an extra 10-20 degrees to double the efficiency of Solar Sterling
Stations.

Bit of a nightmare generator to build though.

http://camaffiliate.com/DRY-AIR-INTAKE.jpg

http://camaffiliate.com/INTERNAL-EVAPORATION-UNIT.jpg


G. Cooper (BInfTech)
--

http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-THEOREM
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-TURING
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-GODEL
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-PROOF
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-MATHS
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-LOGIC
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-BRAIN
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-REAL
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-SETS
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-HALT
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-P-NP
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-GUT
http://tinyURL.com/BLUEPRINTS-AI

LOGIC AXIOM - The Closure Of Tautologies
E(Y) Y={x|f(x)} <-> PROOF( E(Y) Y={x|f(x)} )

MATHEMATICS AXIOM - The Examination of Theories
E(Y) Y={x|f(x)} <-> !PROOF( !E(Y) Y={x|f(x)} )

PROOF(C) :- C
PROOF(C) :- DERIVE(A,B,C)
DERIVE(A,B,C) :- PROOF(A), PROOF(B), TAUT(A,B,C)

8203215
!A0(A1) = NOT(PROOF(8203215)) <-/-> E(Y) Y={x|f(x)}

10 IF HALT(this-program-ref) THEN GOTO 10
ORIGINS OF CHAITAN'S OMEGA AND |R|>|N|

************
| 5GL / WHY? WHEN?
| 4GL / WHAT? not HOW! ?person(P)
| 3GL / FUNCTION STACK proc(a,b)
| 2GL / MNEMONICS LDA 0101
| 1GL/ MACHINE CODE 101 0101
== CPU
 

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