v for frequency?...

[Lasse Langwadt Christensen]

fredag den 2. juni 2023 kl. 02.19.47 UTC+2 skrev Phil Hobbs:

On 2023-06-01 09:58, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:14:53 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 31/05/2023 15:27, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 14:16:01 +0100, Max Demian
max_d...@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 30/05/2023 21:49, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 05:38:51 +1000, \"Rod Speed\"
rod.sp...@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 02:51:26 +1000, John Larkin
jla...@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

Life spans, from birth, have roughly doubled since Pride and Prejudice
was published. About half of newborns didn\'t survive to 5.

But they weren\'t killed by raw milk.

Some certainly were. Are you a raw milk fan?

google childhood deaths unpasteurized milk

Are you a raw milk fan?

I am. Anything you do to milk impairs the flavour.

Like making yogurt or ice cream?

Making it into Hershey bars - the world\'s only vomit flavoured chocolate
that somehow they conned Americans into buying. Milk supply was always a
bit rancid so they made a feature out of it - very cunning marketing!


Lots of things are made from fermented milk. Nobody was conned; pople
could have bought Cadbury but it\'s even worse.

We have all sorts of great chocolate available now, as we have lots of
cheeses. My parents grew up poor in the South and wouldn\'t have been
able to afford Lundt if it had been available. Times have changed.

And as for modern,
homogenised, \"standardised\" milk. Just white water.

Doesn\'t taste like water.

Doesn\'t taste like milk either after it has been sterilised and then
homogenised to something more resembling an inert white paint.

Do you drink raw milk? We can get skim, lowfat, regular \"whole\",
lactose free, extra rich, and a couple of fakes, like almond and soy.
The standard \"whole\" (ultra-pasteurized, homogenized, 3.25% butterfat)
milk tastes fine to me and Mo likes it in her tea. It\'s safe and keeps
fresh.

We keep half-and-half for coffee and some baking, and heavy cream for
whipping and sauces. The squeeze-valve things of sour cream are great
too.

Thanks, all you cows.

Contempt seems to be your food of choice. Enjoy.

French milk is horrible--all UHT. It tastes like diluted Carnation
Evaporated. It\'s the same in Holland and Belgium,

Is British supermarket milk any different? (AFAICT it\'s an EU mandate,
so probably in force even post-Brexit.)

You can get low-temperature pasteurized, non-homogenized milk here too.
It\'s called \'Standard Milk\".

Not found in supermarkets any more, though.

One thing that\'s been noticeable here in the last couple of years is
that milk keeps a lot better in the frig, even after it\'s been opened.

yeh, I\'ve noticed it too. best-before is still usually ~10 days after production date
but it used to be hit and miss if it was still good on the last days

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Thursday, June 1, 2023 at 12:08:28 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 31 May 2023 08:39:27 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 31/05/2023 00:01, rbowman wrote:
You certainly seem to think the Falklands should be yours. I suppose as
the empire vanished you had to hold on to something for old times sake..
The Falklands have never belonged to anyone else, but Britain, the
Falkland islanders absolutely want to stay British, but Argentina, once
one of the wealthiest countries in the world after ceasing to be part of
Spain, has economic problems and its a convenient distraction for the
government there to claim it \'ought\' to be theirs, despite *never ever
having been so*.

Largely because there may well be oil and gas reserves under it.

Why don\'t you shut your fucking loudmouth and go an invade Cuba, where
probably the majority of the citizens would welcome being American,
having lost their love of Marxist austerity and Che Guevara?
If an oppressive government is starving its people and
arresting/torturing/killing dissidents, do the developed countries of
the world have a moral obligation to intervene?

North Korea. Cuba. Haiti. Zimbabwe. Many others.

I think so.

The last time the US thought that was Irak, but it turned out not to have enough money to be able to intervene effectively.

It had got into Afghanistan a bit earlier, and with slightly more justification, and was a bit slower getting out - again because it couldn\'t afford to do the job it had set out to do. The US is a bit too prone to take on jobs that it hasn\'t got the resources to finish off, probably because the people who take on these jobs can\'t think them through any more carefully than John Larkinln, who likes to think that he designs his electronic circuits.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 02/06/2023 01:19, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2023-06-01 09:58, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:14:53 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 31/05/2023 15:27, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 14:16:01 +0100, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 30/05/2023 21:49, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 05:38:51 +1000, \"Rod Speed\"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 02:51:26 +1000, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

Life spans, from birth, have roughly doubled since Pride and
Prejudice
was published. About half of newborns didn\'t survive to 5.

But they weren\'t killed by raw milk.

Some certainly were. Are you a raw milk fan?

google    childhood deaths unpasteurized milk

Are you a raw milk fan?

I am. Anything you do to milk impairs the flavour.

Like making yogurt or ice cream?

Making it into Hershey bars - the world\'s only vomit flavoured chocolate
that somehow they conned Americans into buying. Milk supply was always a
bit rancid so they made a feature out of it - very cunning marketing!


Lots of things are made from fermented milk. Nobody was conned; pople
could have bought Cadbury but it\'s even worse.

We have all sorts of great chocolate available now, as we have lots of
cheeses. My parents grew up poor in the South and wouldn\'t have been
able to afford Lundt if it had been available. Times have changed.

And as for modern,
homogenised, \"standardised\" milk. Just white water.

Doesn\'t taste like water.

Doesn\'t taste like milk either after it has been sterilised and then
homogenised to something more resembling an inert white paint.

Do you drink raw milk? We can get skim, lowfat, regular \"whole\",
lactose free, extra rich, and a couple of fakes, like almond and soy.
The standard \"whole\" (ultra-pasteurized, homogenized, 3.25% butterfat)
milk tastes fine to me and Mo likes it in her tea. It\'s safe and keeps
fresh.

We keep half-and-half for coffee and some baking, and heavy cream for
whipping and sauces. The squeeze-valve things of sour cream are great
too.

Thanks, all you cows.

Contempt seems to be your food of choice. Enjoy.


French milk is horrible--all UHT.  It tastes like diluted Carnation
Evaporated.  It\'s the same in Holland and Belgium,

Is British supermarket milk any different?  (AFAICT it\'s an EU mandate,
so probably in force even post-Brexit.)

I don\'t think so. UHT milk is completely different to normal pasteurised
milk.

AFAICT milk is pasteurised - flash heated - the separated into fat and
non fat, then blended back to whole fat, skimmed or semi skimmed and
\'homegenised\' by blasting it through a nozzle to stop the fat separating
out, and that is essentially it.

UHT milk is heat treated to a far greater extent to remove nearly all
bacteria which gives it a much longer shelf life. But it also changes
its chemical structure considerably. It does \'taste different\'

But I don\'t drink milk anyway. I really don\'t like milk., Probably got
scared by my mothers teats at the age of 3 days.

I use \'unleaded\' milk (semi skimmed) in coffee and that\'s it. On very
rare occasions I might have a bowl of cornflakes. I cook with milk
though for sauces and batters

But I love butter cheese and \'natural\' yoghurt. I stock no margarine or
vegetable fat product at all.

You can get low-temperature pasteurized, non-homogenized milk here too.
It\'s called \'Standard Milk\".

That is available but its not the dominant product in the UK.
Pasteurised and homogenised and possibly skimmed is what we get.

Not found in supermarkets any more, though.

One thing that\'s been noticeable here in the last couple of years is
that milk keeps a lot better in the frig, even after it\'s been opened.

Stuff I have separates out into sludge and whey after a few days even in
the fridge.
Tastes vile.

Not like the old days when it separated out into butter and whey, and or
turned itself into cottage cheese...

And a major stomach infection 4 times a year was the norm

I am no fan of the \'natural, organic\' life.

Been there, done that etc,

I don\'t like free range pigs because they are morally better, or have
more nutritional value, I like them because they taste fucking
BRILLIANT. And my body says \'thank you\' to me, and the pig, for the
privilege.

Same goes for grass fed lamb and beef.

--
In theory, there is no difference between theory and practice.
In practice, there is.
-- Yogi Berra

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 01/06/2023 19:31, John Larkin wrote:

On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 17:14:31 +0100, The Natural Philosopher
tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 01/06/2023 14:58, John Larkin wrote:
Lots of things are made from fermented milk. Nobody was conned; pople
could have bought Cadbury but it\'s even worse.

Since it was bought by a US company it is now completely inedible.
It\'s just colored sugar. There is no taste of cocoa whatsoever

We like Chocolove, among others.

Reese\'s peanut butter cups used to be OK but they have a dark version
now that\'s very good. It\'s a Hershey brand.

Justin\'s dark pb cups are very good too.

I don\'t buy chocolate any more, unless it\'s a special branded item. Some
of the speciality chocolates taste like Cadburys used to...Chocolate is
now for me a luxury item - best quality, rarely bought.

--
\"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him.\"

Jonathan Swift.

 

[SteveW]

On 02/06/2023 01:19, Phil Hobbs wrote:

On 2023-06-01 09:58, John Larkin wrote:
On Thu, 1 Jun 2023 14:14:53 +0100, Martin Brown
\'\'\'newspam\'\'\'@nonad.co.uk> wrote:

On 31/05/2023 15:27, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 14:16:01 +0100, Max Demian
max_demian@bigfoot.com> wrote:

On 30/05/2023 21:49, John Larkin wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 05:38:51 +1000, \"Rod Speed\"
rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote:
On Wed, 31 May 2023 02:51:26 +1000, John Larkin
jlarkin@highlandsnipmetechnology.com> wrote:

Life spans, from birth, have roughly doubled since Pride and
Prejudice
was published. About half of newborns didn\'t survive to 5.

But they weren\'t killed by raw milk.

Some certainly were. Are you a raw milk fan?

google    childhood deaths unpasteurized milk

Are you a raw milk fan?

I am. Anything you do to milk impairs the flavour.

Like making yogurt or ice cream?

Making it into Hershey bars - the world\'s only vomit flavoured chocolate
that somehow they conned Americans into buying. Milk supply was always a
bit rancid so they made a feature out of it - very cunning marketing!


Lots of things are made from fermented milk. Nobody was conned; pople
could have bought Cadbury but it\'s even worse.

We have all sorts of great chocolate available now, as we have lots of
cheeses. My parents grew up poor in the South and wouldn\'t have been
able to afford Lundt if it had been available. Times have changed.

And as for modern,
homogenised, \"standardised\" milk. Just white water.

Doesn\'t taste like water.

Doesn\'t taste like milk either after it has been sterilised and then
homogenised to something more resembling an inert white paint.

Do you drink raw milk? We can get skim, lowfat, regular \"whole\",
lactose free, extra rich, and a couple of fakes, like almond and soy.
The standard \"whole\" (ultra-pasteurized, homogenized, 3.25% butterfat)
milk tastes fine to me and Mo likes it in her tea. It\'s safe and keeps
fresh.

We keep half-and-half for coffee and some baking, and heavy cream for
whipping and sauces. The squeeze-valve things of sour cream are great
too.

Thanks, all you cows.

Contempt seems to be your food of choice. Enjoy.


French milk is horrible--all UHT.  It tastes like diluted Carnation
Evaporated.  It\'s the same in Holland and Belgium,

Is British supermarket milk any different?  (AFAICT it\'s an EU mandate,
so probably in force even post-Brexit.)

I like British milk - in fact I have a glass on my desk right now.
French milk tastes odd. My wife calls it \"rice milk\".

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Tuesday, May 30, 2023 at 5:30:34 AM UTC+10, John Larkin wrote:

On 29 May 2023 18:45:48 GMT, rbowman <bow...@montana.com> wrote:

On Mon, 29 May 2023 07:22:25 -0700, John Larkin wrote:

I suspect that a minority of europeans could often afford cheese 500 years ago. Malnutrition was usual.

Most people who ate cheese ate cheese that they had made.

Most people didn\'t get enough to eat in winter. Most of the bones dug from that period have starvation rings every winter.
That\'s seasonal malnutrition.

500 years ago was prior to the Industrial Revolution when people were
herded off the land and into the dark satanic mills. Most would have had
at least one cow, sheep, or goat. You can only use so much milk so cheese
was made to store the surplus, or if you really had a surplus, to feed the
hogs.

It took industrialization to create widespread malnutrition, or sometimes
outside forces.

It happened pretty much every winter. the bones don\'t lie.

Ireland was a net exporter of food during the Famine. The beefeaters had to have their beef.

Nobody forced peasants off the land and into factories. They did it because it improved their lives.

The enclosures acts did force peasants off their lands. The factories exploited the labour that became available.

> Industrialization gave us tractors, fertilizers, insecticides, trucks, airplanes, refrigeration, and plant breeding that multiplied crop yields enormously. The factories paid workers so they could afford the ag products.

Science gave us most of that. The British agricultural revolutiuon increased crop yields without any help from industrialisation, and freed up enough agricultural labourers to make the industrial revolution possible.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_revolution

Try not to be entirely clueless.

> Life spans have over doubled since 1800.

Mainly due to wiping out a lot of endemic diseases. Your number is mainly about chance of surviving childhood which has risen from 50% over most of recorded history to about 96% today.

https://ourworldindata.org/child-mortality-in-the-past

https://www.who.int/data/gho/data/themes/topics/topic-details/GHO/child-mortality-and-causes-of-death

It\'s technology in general - and not just industrialisation - that has made the difference. If you want to go into Pollyanna mode try to get your facts somewhere near right.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Pamela]

On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:

On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated
Greece and Rome.

The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of
civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before
Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation. For
example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire subcontinent
had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing. Fortunately for
them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former
British colonies.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 8:28:12 PM UTC+10, Pamela wrote:

On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:
On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated
Greece and Rome.

The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

A story that is popular in parts of the UK.

> It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation.

Since the relevant bits of the UK aren\'t all that well in formed about foreign countries, they did like to think that the areas that they invaded and exploited were \"primitive\".

> For example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire subcontinent had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing.

Sub-Saharan Africa isn\'t a continent. The African continent includes Egypt who discovered the wheel and used writing a long time before the UK did.Ethiopia was Christian before the UK was.

> Fortunately for them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former British colonies.

And who might they be?

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/richest-african-countries

puts Nigeria first, and it is rich because it has got oil - not something put there by the colonial powers.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[John Larkin]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:28:00 +0100, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:
On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated
Greece and Rome.

The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of
civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before
Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation. For
example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire subcontinent
had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing. Fortunately for
them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former
British colonies.

The movie \"The Mouse That Roared\" has an impoverished country, The
Duchy of Grand Fenwick, declare war on the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

 

[Joe]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 05:47:32 -0700
John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The movie \"The Mouse That Roared\" has an impoverished country, The
Duchy of Grand Fenwick, declare war on the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

Yes, but that was in order to immediately lose and be showered with
rebuilding money. It just didn\'t quite work out.

--
Joe

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 03/06/2023 13:47, John Larkin wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:28:00 +0100, Pamela
pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:
On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated
Greece and Rome.

The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of
civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before
Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation. For
example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire subcontinent
had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing. Fortunately for
them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former
British colonies.

The movie \"The Mouse That Roared\" has an impoverished country, The
Duchy of Grand Fenwick, declare war on the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

In the end its all a philosophical nightmare. Should we leave pre
industrial herders and hunters with massive death rates and short lives
to their own devices? Or would they actually prefer to be brought into
at least the 19th century?

I spoke to one woman in the Caribbean who said \'it was much better when
we were run by Britain\' Drugs and gangs were not tolerated, and
education was respected.

No one would dispute that South Africa under the communist ANC is worse
off for almost all ethnic groups than it was under the thoroughly racist
Afrikaaners. The only group that has benefited a little is the emerging
educated black middle class, but even their affluence has come at the
price of out of control crime rates .

Everybody seems to want to ape the affluent western urban/suburban
lifestyle, but without adopting any of the cultural mores and religious
tolerances that made it all possible.

And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the
fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the
underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!


--
\"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight
and understanding\".

Marshall McLuhan

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 03/06/2023 14:14, Joe wrote:

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 05:47:32 -0700
John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:



The movie \"The Mouse That Roared\" has an impoverished country, The
Duchy of Grand Fenwick, declare war on the USA.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared



Yes, but that was in order to immediately lose and be showered with
rebuilding money. It just didn\'t quite work out.

I wonder who will shower rebuilding money on Russia?

--
You can get much farther with a kind word and a gun than you can with a
kind word alone.

Al Capone

 

[Joe]

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 14:18:41 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the
fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the
underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!

I have wondered how the JSO protesters can really avoid knowing how
much of their own lives depends upon oil.

Bicycles are out of the question: tyres made from latex would be very
expensive and wear out very quickly, and oil for the bearings and
grease for the chains would be problematic. For that kind of person, I
suppose animal fats would be a non-starter.

Clothes, medicines, cosmetics, paints, dyes... most of it starts life
as crude oil, among thousands of other things. Coal has many industrial
uses apart from burning it raw, and I suppose that would be off-limits
also.

Back to the 18th century, at the latest, with a population and life
expectancy to match. And if animal labour is also ruled out...

--
Joe

 

[The Natural Philosopher]

On 03/06/2023 15:03, Joe wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 14:18:41 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:



And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the
fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the
underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!



I have wondered how the JSO protesters can really avoid knowing how
much of their own lives depends upon oil.

Bicycles are out of the question: tyres made from latex would be very
expensive and wear out very quickly, and oil for the bearings and
grease for the chains would be problematic. For that kind of person, I
suppose animal fats would be a non-starter.

Clothes, medicines, cosmetics, paints, dyes... most of it starts life
as crude oil, among thousands of other things. Coal has many industrial
uses apart from burning it raw, and I suppose that would be off-limits
also.

Back to the 18th century, at the latest, with a population and life
expectancy to match. And if animal labour is also ruled out...

It gets worse, eliminate animal husbandry, and you are pretty much back
to an aboriginal hunter gatherer, without the hunting.

When the world human population was under a million


--
“It is hard to imagine a more stupid decision or more dangerous way of
making decisions than by putting those decisions in the hands of people
who pay no price for being wrong.”

Thomas Sowell

 

[Rod Speed]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 20:28:00 +1000, Pamela
<pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:
On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated
Greece and Rome.

The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of
civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before
Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation.

For example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire
subcontinent
had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing.

Wrong, the arab traders had brought both.

Fortunately for
them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former
British colonies.

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Saturday, June 3, 2023 at 11:18:48 PM UTC+10, The Natural Philosopher wrote:

On 03/06/2023 13:47, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:28:00 +0100, Pamela <pamela.priv...@gmail.com> wrote:
On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:
On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jla...@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com> wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

It didn\'t.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated Greece and Rome.

They claimed to, but actually imitated the Netherlands

> >> The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

Or so it\'s proponents like to tell us.

> >> It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation.

If you actually knew anything about the subject, you\'d realise that the weren\'t on the least \"primitive\" and if you are dim enough to swallow that kind of propaganda, you wouldn\'t know enough to have anything to forget.

> >> For example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire subcontinent had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing.

Sub- Saharan Africa isn\'t a continent, and the continent of Africa includes Egypt, which had both the wheel and writing long before the UK.

> >> Fortunately for them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former British colonies.

Why fortunately?

The movie \"The Mouse That Roared\" has an impoverished country, The Duchy of Grand Fenwick, declare war on the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared

It was a comedy - essentially a farce.

> In the end its all a philosophical nightmare. Should we leave pre industrial herders and hunters with massive death rates and short lives to their own devices? Or would they actually prefer to be brought into at least the 19th century?

Colonial occupation didn\'t manage that. It mostly made the original inhabitants of the colonies occupied worse off and less well educated than they had been before

> I spoke to one woman in the Caribbean who said \'it was much better when we were run by Britain\' Drugs and gangs were not tolerated, and education was respected.

She knows what to say to British visitors. It\'s all part of the tourist experience. Tell then what they like to hear, and take their money

> No one would dispute that South Africa under the communist ANC is worse off for almost all ethnic groups than it was under the thoroughly racist Afrikaaners.

Nobody would waste time arguing with the kind of demented fruitcake who would advance such a bizarre assertion.

>The only group that has benefited a little is the emerging educated black middle class, but even their affluence has come at the price of out of control crime rates .

The crime was just as poorly controlled under the Afrikaan regime, but the while police kept the crooks out of the white enclaves.

> Everybody seems to want to ape the affluent western urban/suburban lifestyle, but without adopting any of the cultural mores and religious tolerances that made it all possible.

Twaddle.

> And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the underlying technology that makes it all possible.

This is the usual climate change denial propaganda. They want to assert that modern technology runs on burning fossil carbon - which it did - and like to claim that there no other way of getting the energy required, which doesn\'t happen top be true.

> Just Stop Civilisation!

There\'s nothing civilised about burning enough fossil carbon to wreck the climate, and sane people note that transitioning to renewable energy sources is an entirely civilised solution to the problem. The fact that renewal energy sources now provide cheaper energy that burning fossil carbon is an added bonus, but the fossil carbon extraction business is - not unnaturally, but entirely dishonestly - relucant to admit this.

--
\"A point of view can be a dangerous luxury when substituted for insight and understanding\".
Marshall McLuhan

As the Natural Philosopher takes pains to illustrate, at frequent intervals.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Rod Speed]

On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 23:18:41 +1000, The Natural Philosopher
<tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

On 03/06/2023 13:47, John Larkin wrote:
On Sat, 03 Jun 2023 11:28:00 +0100, Pamela
pamela.private.mailbox@gmail.com> wrote:

On 22:03 29 May 2023, Cindy Hamilton said:
On 2023-05-29, John Larkin <jlarkin@highlandSNIPMEtechnology.com
wrote:

The modern state of affairs is that most of the world has
electricity,
literacy, science, food, medicine, travel, womens and minority
rights,
and choices in life. All that descended from the Greeks and
disseminated through colonialism.

There used to be a guy on sci.chem who said something like:
The only countries worth anything were the ones that had felt
the tread of the Roman Empire.

He allowed the U.S. because the Founders deliberately imitated
Greece and Rome.

The recent version of that is the British Empire. It was a bringer of
civilisation to almost every country it took care of.

It\'s easy to forget how primitive some of the countries were before
Europeans and in particular the British brought Western civilisation.
For
example, when Britain came to sub-Saharan Africa the entire
subcontinent
had not discovered the wheel nor made use of writing. Fortunately for
them, several of the wealthiest countries in Africa today are former
British colonies.
The movie \"The Mouse That Roared\" has an impoverished country, The
Duchy of Grand Fenwick, declare war on the USA.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mouse_That_Roared


In the end its all a philosophical nightmare. Should we leave pre
industrial herders and hunters with massive death rates and short lives
to their own devices? Or would they actually prefer to be brought into
at least the 19th century?

I spoke to one woman in the Caribbean who said \'it was much better when
we were run by Britain\' Drugs and gangs were not tolerated, and
education was respected.

No one would dispute that South Africa under the communist ANC is worse
off for almost all ethnic groups than it was under the thoroughly racist
Afrikaaners. The only group that has benefited a little is the emerging
educated black middle class, but even their affluence has come at the
price of out of control crime rates .

Everybody seems to want to ape the affluent western urban/suburban
lifestyle,

The worst of the muslim religious fanatics don\'t.

Neither do the Amish.

but without adopting any of the cultural mores and religious tolerances
that made it all possible.

That\'s completely silly with the religious tolerance line.

And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the
fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the
underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!

 

[Anthony William Sloman]

On Sunday, June 4, 2023 at 12:03:19 AM UTC+10, Joe wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 14:18:41 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <t...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the
fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the
underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!

I have wondered how the JSO protesters can really avoid knowing how much of their own lives depends upon oil.

Bicycles are out of the question: tyres made from latex would be very expensive and wear out very quickly, and oil for the bearings and grease for the chains would be problematic. For that kind of person, I suppose animal fats would be a non-starter.

This is remarkably ignorant nonsense. Oil is just fine as chemical feed-stock - the problem only cones when you burn it as fuel.

You don\'t burn bicycle tyres or lubricating oil or grease.

> Clothes, medicines, cosmetics, paints, dyes... most of it starts life as crude oil, among thousands of other things. Coal has many industrial uses apart from burning it raw, and I suppose that would be off-limits also.

You don\'t burn clothes, cosmetics or medicines, and as long as you don\'t burn them using hydrocarbons is perfectly okay.

> Back to the 18th century, at the latest, with a population and life expectancy to match. And if animal labour is also ruled out...

Getting the energy to power your machines from solar cells and wind turbines is cheaper (and whole lot more efficient) than using sunlight to grow crops to feed horses to generate that power. Storing the energy overnight in batteries means that you can use it when you need to.

Joe is remarkably stupid.

--
Bill Sloman, Sydney

 

[Tim Streater]

On 03 Jun 2023 at 15:03:11 BST, \"Joe\" <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 14:18:41 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy the
fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any of the
underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!

I have wondered how the JSO protesters can really avoid knowing how
much of their own lives depends upon oil.

Bicycles are out of the question: tyres made from latex would be very
expensive and wear out very quickly, and oil for the bearings and
grease for the chains would be problematic. For that kind of person, I
suppose animal fats would be a non-starter.

Clothes, medicines, cosmetics, paints, dyes... most of it starts life
as crude oil, among thousands of other things. Coal has many industrial
uses apart from burning it raw, and I suppose that would be off-limits
also.

Back to the 18th century, at the latest, with a population and life
expectancy to match. And if animal labour is also ruled out...

Life would be seriously shitty for most people. And the population would have
to go back to the 7 million or so it was at the time, and the social contract
of the time too, with a lot of people beholden to the lord of the manor who
provided food and shelter in exchange for hard labour. Very hard labour, too.

Any volunteers to bump off 90% of the population?

--
\"That excessive bail ought not to be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted\" -- Bill of Rights 1689

 

[Joe]

On 3 Jun 2023 16:54:38 GMT
Tim Streater <tim@streater.me.uk> wrote:

On 03 Jun 2023 at 15:03:11 BST, \"Joe\" <joe@jretrading.com> wrote:

On Sat, 3 Jun 2023 14:18:41 +0100
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

And that goes even for White Europeans, who seem to want to enjoy
the fruits of a post modern post industrial lifestyle without any
of the underlying technology that makes it all possible.

Just Stop Civilisation!

I have wondered how the JSO protesters can really avoid knowing how
much of their own lives depends upon oil.

Bicycles are out of the question: tyres made from latex would be
very expensive and wear out very quickly, and oil for the bearings
and grease for the chains would be problematic. For that kind of
person, I suppose animal fats would be a non-starter.

Clothes, medicines, cosmetics, paints, dyes... most of it starts
life as crude oil, among thousands of other things. Coal has many
industrial uses apart from burning it raw, and I suppose that would
be off-limits also.

Back to the 18th century, at the latest, with a population and life
expectancy to match. And if animal labour is also ruled out...

Life would be seriously shitty for most people. And the population
would have to go back to the 7 million or so it was at the time, and
the social contract of the time too, with a lot of people beholden to
the lord of the manor who provided food and shelter in exchange for
hard labour. Very hard labour, too.

Any volunteers to bump off 90% of the population?

Don\'t worry, it\'s in hand. See Agenda 2030.

--
Joe