Two phases or not?

[Wild_Bill]

You're free to call it whatever you like.. and everyone that hears you call
single-phase items 2-phase instead, is free to find humor in it, or suspect
that you're uninformed, or lesser of you (without giving you any
indications).
Kinda like referring to an item with a perfectly practical/widely familar
name "a thingy", or a (something) thingy.

Superstitious would be applicable in the early years of the last century
when folks actually believed that distributed electricity was "fire on a
wire".
It was a mysterious power to be feared by many folks in backwoods/mountain
places in Appalachia for a significant portion of last century, and that
same term can be heard in documentary films of that area of the country.

Think what you like, but if you present yourself as being wiser or more
reasonable wrt the subject, it's essentially just trolling.. and since you
study proper usenet protocol, you know that's the equivalent to numerous
simultaneously performed deadly sins.

It's likely no one gives a FRA what you prefer to call single-phase,
however, many usenet folks will likely continue to attempt to correct you at
your use of the term 2-phase, primarily because it's not applicable to the
subject matter.. and just because 2-phase power is essentially non-existent.

As I suggested in my first reply in this thread.. essentially debated to
hell'n back, and still, there are still those defending the use of the term
2-phase.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4d3e4a7b$0$21367$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

Well, it really shouldn't be like that. I mean, look, we're discussing a
well-known, measurable phenomenon. The output of the center-tapped
transformer can be demonstrated to supply two separate and distinct
phases. Hell, hook up two 'scopes and see what they show.

It's just that the 'lectric-heads--the lunks who install distribution
panels and such--won't let us *call* it "2-phase" for several dubious
reasons. Doesn't change the fact that it IS two-phase power. That's what
I'm getting at. I'm not trying to force anyone to change their terminology
or give up their superstitious beliefs; I know that that's futile.

 

[Wild_Bill]

Having a couple of decades experience in servicing/repair of commercial and
consumer electronic equipment and additional training and experience in
industrial site experience (both electrical and electronic circuits), I have
never seen descriptions or designations stated as 2-phase, for any type of
transformer.

Or: Hey bub, you gotta single-phase-in, 2-phase-out transformer?

But I have seen and used transformers with multiple taps, on both pri and
sec sides.
The number of taps on either side of a single-phase transformer don't change
the output(s) to 2-phase, regardless of how many there are (pri or sec
side).
Monophase sounds odd, like it's not related to electricity.
How about uniphase? Yep, found an example (and diphase) used in a book c
1905.
Electricity In Every-day Life Edwin J. Houston PhD. You know that's gonna be
interesting just because it was authored by a PhD.

--
Cheers,
WB
..............


"Michael Kennedy" <mike@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:t5CdnYPUlJL5bqPQnZ2dnVY3goudnZ2d@giganews.com...

Unfortunately. Maybe we should more generic terminology to describe this.
There is a difference in the phase of the two legs off of a center tapped
transformer. This can not be argued. Anyone who argues so can go hook up
a couple scopes for themselves as you suggested.

Maybe the confusion exsists because of the nature of two seperate phase
(split phase) power vs 3. Correct me if I am wrong, but any device
requiring 240V could be powered by 2 legs of a center tapped 7200V==>120V
N 120V transformer or could be powered by a 7200V==>240V transformer with
the same results.

That said Im sure someone will tell me why my theory of why this is a
confusion is wrong..

- Mike

Hmm.. I must have not drank my coffee yet when I wrote this.. 3 phase
would operate the same way therefore making this all bunk.

 

[Michael Kennedy]

"David Nebenzahl" <nobody@but.us.chickens> wrote in message
news:4d3e4a7b$0$21367$822641b3@news.adtechcomputers.com...

Well, it really shouldn't be like that. I mean, look, we're discussing a
well-known, measurable phenomenon. The output of the center-tapped
transformer can be demonstrated to supply two separate and distinct
phases. Hell, hook up two 'scopes and see what they show.

It's just that the 'lectric-heads--the lunks who install distribution
panels and such--won't let us *call* it "2-phase" for several dubious
reasons. Doesn't change the fact that it IS two-phase power. That's what
I'm getting at. I'm not trying to force anyone to change their
terminology or give up their superstitious beliefs; I know that that's
futile.

"Wild_Bill" <wb_wildbill@XSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:F1E%o.415936$zE6.360104@en-nntp-03.dc1.easynews.com...

You're free to call it whatever you like.. and everyone that hears you
call single-phase items 2-phase instead, is free to find humor in it, or
suspect that you're uninformed, or lesser of you (without giving you any
indications).
Kinda like referring to an item with a perfectly practical/widely familar
name "a thingy", or a (something) thingy.

Superstitious would be applicable in the early years of the last century
when folks actually believed that distributed electricity was "fire on a
wire".
It was a mysterious power to be feared by many folks in backwoods/mountain
places in Appalachia for a significant portion of last century, and that
same term can be heard in documentary films of that area of the country.

Think what you like, but if you present yourself as being wiser or more
reasonable wrt the subject, it's essentially just trolling.. and since you
study proper usenet protocol, you know that's the equivalent to numerous
simultaneously performed deadly sins.

It's likely no one gives a FRA what you prefer to call single-phase,
however, many usenet folks will likely continue to attempt to correct you
at your use of the term 2-phase, primarily because it's not applicable to
the subject matter.. and just because 2-phase power is essentially
non-existent.

As I suggested in my first reply in this thread.. essentially debated to
hell'n back, and still, there are still those defending the use of the
term 2-phase.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

Oh I completely agree that the terminology is split phase and or center
tapped.. Just after reading all of this I am trying to rationalize why there
is so much debate.. I mean they are different phases 180deg apart. That is
measurable. I just cant understand why some refuse the fact that they are 2
different phases, i.e. "split-phase" as the name implies. This fits the
definiton of a different phase of power. Im not trying to change any
terminology in the process here.

Mike

 

[Bob AZ]

Oh I completely agree that the terminology is split phase and or center
tapped.. Just after reading all of this I am trying to rationalize why there
is so much debate.. I mean they are different phases 180deg apart. That is
measurable.  I just cant understand why some refuse the fact that they are 2
different phases, i.e. "split-phase" as the name implies. This fits the
definiton of a different phase of power. Im not trying to change any
terminology in the process here.

MIke et al

The problem seems to be that after all this dialogue, that so many of
the responders simply don't stick to the basic premise that different
phases by definition have timing differences. Simply reversing the way
of using a phase does not make it a different phase. The timing stays
the same.

If one uses an oscillioscope to view the phase it can be readily
reversed to appear as another when it is not. We connect windings in
the power transformer that feeds our residence to get the desired
result, 120 or 240 and connect the common point to accomplish another
desired result. Safety. Also the ungrounded winding would be floating
about a possible potential of several thousand volts and be a real
hazard should there be a problem in any of the many devises connected
to the secondary. Including the two seconday windings. And yes there
are two identical secondary windings. If there were not our electric
bills would at least double. Lots of folks would die and lots of
devises would be hazardous to all. Thus the emphasis on proper
grounding in the interests of public welfare. But this is another
subject.

Bob AZ

 

[Phil Allison]

"Bob AZ"

The problem seems to be that after all this dialogue, that so many of
the responders simply don't stick to the basic premise that different
phases by definition have timing differences.


** More total nonsenese.

Sine waves of the exact same frequency and amplitude can ONLY differ only in
phase.

A 180 degree phase difference is as good as any other.


.... Phil

 

[Fred McKenzie]

In article <ihq4h3$kl9$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>,
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:

Sine waves of the exact same frequency and amplitude can ONLY differ only in
phase.

A 180 degree phase difference is as good as any other.

Phil-

I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred

 

[Phil Allison]

"Fred McKenzie"

"Phil Allison"

Sine waves of the exact same frequency and amplitude can ONLY differ only
in
phase.

A 180 degree phase difference is as good as any other.


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells.

** Nuh - that is DC, you pathetic troll.

It certainly fits your criteria.

** Nuh - not one of them.

Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

** Just like white is the same as black with no lights on.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

** Just like reality is no deterrent to a lunatic.

Did someone leave the door open at the asylum today ??



...... Phil

 

[Meat Plow]

On Thu, 27 Jan 2011 11:19:54 +1100, Phil Allison wrote:

"Fred McKenzie"

"Phil Allison"

Sine waves of the exact same frequency and amplitude can ONLY differ
only in
phase.

A 180 degree phase difference is as good as any other.


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells.


** Nuh - that is DC, you pathetic troll.


It certainly fits your criteria.


** Nuh - not one of them.


Its power system can also be considered AC, since DC is just AC with
frequency equal to zero.


** Just like white is the same as black with no lights on.


Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!


** Just like reality is no deterrent to a lunatic.

Did someone leave the door open at the asylum today ??

I'd make a comment here but it is against my new year's resolution.



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse

 

[Jamie]

Wild_Bill wrote:

Having a couple of decades experience in servicing/repair of commercial
and consumer electronic equipment and additional training and experience
in industrial site experience (both electrical and electronic circuits),
I have never seen descriptions or designations stated as 2-phase, for
any type of transformer.

Or: Hey bub, you gotta single-phase-in, 2-phase-out transformer?

But I have seen and used transformers with multiple taps, on both pri
and sec sides.
The number of taps on either side of a single-phase transformer don't
change the output(s) to 2-phase, regardless of how many there are (pri
or sec side).
Monophase sounds odd, like it's not related to electricity.
How about uniphase? Yep, found an example (and diphase) used in a book c
1905.
Electricity In Every-day Life Edwin J. Houston PhD. You know that's
gonna be interesting just because it was authored by a PhD.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

You still lose:

You don't seem to know the difference between circuits and phase
angles..

Typical residential hack electrician..

I hope you don't ever decide to move in to electronics, you'd be in a
world of shit.

 

[Jamie]

Fred McKenzie wrote:

In article <ihq4h3$kl9$1@news-01.bur.connect.com.au>,
"Phil Allison" <phil_a@tpg.com.au> wrote:


Sine waves of the exact same frequency and amplitude can ONLY differ only in
phase.

A 180 degree phase difference is as good as any other.


Phil-

I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred
What are you a fucking moron?

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA

Fred McKenzie = radio ham K4DII


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred

What are you a fucking moron?

** Yep - Fred is another radio ham.

K4DII
Frederick M. McKenzie
2867 EPP Bivings Drive
Titusville, Fl 32796



...... Phil

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA

Fred McKenzie = radio ham K4DII


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred

What are you a fucking moron?


** Yep - Fred is another radio ham.

K4DII
Frederick M. McKenzie
2867 EPP Bivings Drive
Titusville, Fl 32796


Look Phil, I may not agree with avery thing you say, but at least
I am supporting you in this debate...

** Yawnnnnnnn....

And please don't use amateur operators as a signification of
stupidity..

** Shame that so many radio hams on usenet prove themselves to be the
biggest trolls, trouble makers and blow hard bullshit artists ever.

Damn shame about that.



..... Phil

 

[Jamie]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA

Fred McKenzie = radio ham K4DII


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred

What are you a fucking moron?



** Yep - Fred is another radio ham.

K4DII
Frederick M. McKenzie
2867 EPP Bivings Drive
Titusville, Fl 32796



..... Phil



Look Phil, I may not agree with avery thing you say, but at least

I am supporting you in this debate...

And please don't use amateur operators as a signification of
stupidity..

You can't fix stupid, It has no classification.

And admit it Phil, you just wish you were a HAM!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Z9136_Nhh4

Watch and Weep!

Jamie

 

[Phil Allison]

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA

And please don't use amateur operators as a signification of
stupidity..

** Shame that so many radio hams on usenet prove themselves to be the
biggest trolls, trouble makers and blow hard bullshit artists ever.

Especially YOU.

Damn shame about that.




..... Phil

 

[Jamie]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA

Fred McKenzie = radio ham K4DII


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred

What are you a fucking moron?


** Yep - Fred is another radio ham.

K4DII
Frederick M. McKenzie
2867 EPP Bivings Drive
Titusville, Fl 32796



Look Phil, I may not agree with avery thing you say, but at least
I am supporting you in this debate...


** Yawnnnnnnn....


And please don't use amateur operators as a signification of
stupidity..



** Shame that so many radio hams on usenet prove themselves to be the
biggest trolls, trouble makers and blow hard bullshit artists ever.

Damn shame about that.



.... Phil


Oh, I didn't know you were a ham yourself ? That would explain

why you have such animosity towards us, you speak from experience.


--... ...-- ...

Thou sayest, "Keep the brother hood together"!

Jamie

 

[Jamie]

Phil Allison wrote:

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA



And please don't use amateur operators as a signification of
stupidity..



** Shame that so many radio hams on usenet prove themselves to be the
biggest trolls, trouble makers and blow hard bullshit artists ever.

Especially YOU.

Damn shame about that.




.... Phil

Making assumptions like that about some one you know absolutely
nothing about, isn't very good character on your part. It just goes to
show how much of an ignoramus one could be, you for example.

Now, I understand your dilemma. I am forced to communication with
people of your type, every day. That does not mean I have to like it
how ever, it's a requirement I must adhere to.

Could it be these so called "Trouble Makers" as you call them are just
making you feel like you have too much competition ? I am sorry that
"we Amateur Operators don't kneel down and kiss your feet".

Jamie

P.S.
It's not nice trying to make yourself look better by devaluing others.

hint.

 

[Michael Kennedy]

MIke et al

The problem seems to be that after all this dialogue, that so many of
the responders simply don't stick to the basic premise that different
phases by definition have timing differences. Simply reversing the way
of using a phase does not make it a different phase. The timing stays
the same.

Ok I get what your saying.. But do you understand what a phanse difference
is?? It is timing like you said..

Here is an explanation using audio waves. Maybe you can get what I am
saying.

http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/acoustics/phase.htm

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jamie wrote:

Wild_Bill wrote:

Having a couple of decades experience in servicing/repair of commercial
and consumer electronic equipment and additional training and experience
in industrial site experience (both electrical and electronic circuits),
I have never seen descriptions or designations stated as 2-phase, for
any type of transformer.

Or: Hey bub, you gotta single-phase-in, 2-phase-out transformer?

But I have seen and used transformers with multiple taps, on both pri
and sec sides.
The number of taps on either side of a single-phase transformer don't
change the output(s) to 2-phase, regardless of how many there are (pri
or sec side).
Monophase sounds odd, like it's not related to electricity.
How about uniphase? Yep, found an example (and diphase) used in a book c
1905.
Electricity In Every-day Life Edwin J. Houston PhD. You know that's
gonna be interesting just because it was authored by a PhD.

--
Cheers,
WB
.............

You still lose:

You don't seem to know the difference between circuits and phase
angles..

Typical residential hack electrician..

I hope you don't ever decide to move in to electronics, you'd be in a
world of shit.

Still trying to find people to join you?


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Jamie wrote:

Phil Allison wrote:

"Jamie" = radio ham KA1LPA

Fred McKenzie = radio ham K4DII


I have a flashlight powered by a two-phase system - two D cells. It
certainly fits your criteria. Its power system can also be considered
AC, since DC is just AC with frequency equal to zero.

Facts are no deterrent to a persistent troll!

Fred

What are you a fucking moron?



** Yep - Fred is another radio ham.

K4DII
Frederick M. McKenzie
2867 EPP Bivings Drive
Titusville, Fl 32796



..... Phil



Look Phil, I may not agree with avery thing you say, but at least
I am supporting you in this debate...

And please don't use amateur operators as a signification of
stupidity..

You can't fix stupid, It has no classification.

Your parents could have prevented stupid.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

Michael Kennedy wrote:

MIke et al

The problem seems to be that after all this dialogue, that so many of
the responders simply don't stick to the basic premise that different
phases by definition have timing differences. Simply reversing the way
of using a phase does not make it a different phase. The timing stays
the same.


Ok I get what your saying.. But do you understand what a phanse difference
is?? It is timing like you said..

Here is an explanation using audio waves. Maybe you can get what I am
saying.

http://www.indiana.edu/~emusic/acoustics/phase.htm

By your definiton, a 'Push-Pull Output Transformer' is two phase.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.