TVs compatible, from one continent to the next??

"Michael A. Terrell" wrote in message
news:HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com...

PAL never looked like crap, your NTSC has the monopoly.
Click to expand...

Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs was
a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in lake
County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a steady
stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were commercial
tapes, not recorded OTA.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having been to a PAL country (the Kingdom of Thailand), I can toss my -W-23
in.

During my visits there, I watched a good deal of TV, and the thing I noticed
most was that the lower framerate didn't play well with fluorescent
lighting. There always seemed to be an easily perceptible flicker to the
picture. Brand of set or signal source (OTA, CATV, Satellite, tape or VCD)
didn't seem to make any difference.
 
In article <BKWdnaM807JGS7bQnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

People who never worked in the industry have no clue. They generally
used the cheapest imported TV they could find, then bitched about it.
If they ever saw the video from a TK-46 with a set of new Plumbicons on
a $7,000 studio monitor, they would shoot their digital TVs.
Click to expand...
Well, yes. But take that same camera outdoors where you haven't got full
control over the lighting... Oh - and what were the pictures like at
switch on, before an hours worth of line-up?

Luckily, modern cameras are far more suited to use outside of a studio.

Other thing is control room monitors (Grade 1) are designed for close
viewing, so generally in the smaller sizes. Nor have I ever seen a
widescreen CRT with decent geometry and registration. Control room CRTs
even for widescreen were still 4:3, but underscanned, making the small
size even more of an issue.

--
*A plateau is a high form of flattery*

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs was
a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in lake
County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a steady
stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were commercial
tapes, not recorded OTA.
Click to expand...
You judge a system off domestic tapes? I've also no idea of the technical
standards of such Greek produced stuff. Did you do the same with UK or
German?

The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the first
instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO tubes. Had a
modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not
have adopted (and been part of the design) of PAL.

--
*I used to have an open mind but my brains kept falling out *

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <9n0oi6hlk9gi4acqlc3b7q880hgi55bc7j@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
The reason that everyone did not have a universal TV set was because
the price was kept lower with single system sets and countries like the
UK, which made a substansial income from the TV license did not want
you watching tv from France or the Republic of Ireland for free.

I ran into something like that when I "visited" Israel in the early
1970's.
Click to expand...
The UK isn't Israel.

--
*You sound reasonable......time to up my medication

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
In article <HbOdnajoAZT6g7HQnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Brenda Ann <newsgroups@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
During my visits there, I watched a good deal of TV, and the thing I
noticed most was that the lower framerate didn't play well with
fluorescent lighting. There always seemed to be an easily perceptible
flicker to the picture. Brand of set or signal source (OTA, CATV,
Satellite, tape or VCD) didn't seem to make any difference.
Click to expand...
If you have any form of strobe lighting - like fluorescent - you can get
such effects. Regardless of a frame rate of 25 or 30 Hz. But few in the US
would use fluorescent lighting in the same room as their TV.

--
*Why is a boxing ring square?

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour.
In the first instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things
with 3" IO tubes. Had a modification of NTSC to say 625
lines, 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not have adopted
(and been part of the design) of PAL.
Click to expand...
The BBC had little or no hand in "designing" PAL. The original NTSC proposal
/was/ PAL. Want proof?
 
The BBC had little or no hand in "designing" PAL.
The original NTSC proposal /was/ PAL. Want proof?

So the PAL patent is owned by a US company?
Click to expand...
You mean "was". And there would have been multiple patents.

The PAL system was publically described in an "Electronics" article circa
1951, which I have in the garage. It was given as the NTSC proposal. It used
phase alternation, and equal-bandwidth R-Yand B-Y primaries.

It was presumably patented, so I assume someone would have had to pay
royalties at least through the mid-60s.

I well-remember reading -- many years ago -- that European TV-distribution
systems suffered from significant non-linear phase errors (while American
systems did not), and this was the principal reason for adopting phase
alternation. I have no source, though.
 
In article <ighg5a$dt5$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote:
The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour.
In the first instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things
with 3" IO tubes. Had a modification of NTSC to say 625
lines, 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not have adopted
(and been part of the design) of PAL.

The BBC had little or no hand in "designing" PAL. The original NTSC
proposal /was/ PAL. Want proof?
Click to expand...
So the PAL patent is owned by a US company?

--
*Atheism is a non-prophet organization.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
Dave Plowman (News) wrote:
In article <9n0oi6hlk9gi4acqlc3b7q880hgi55bc7j@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
The reason that everyone did not have a universal TV set was because
the price was kept lower with single system sets and countries like the
UK, which made a substansial income from the TV license did not want
you watching tv from France or the Republic of Ireland for free.

I ran into something like that when I "visited" Israel in the early
1970's.

The UK isn't Israel.
Click to expand...
Actually compared to the 1970s Israel is nothing like it was in the 1970s,
although it looks like the current UK government is trying to recreate
them.

Geoff.

--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article <HbOdnajoAZT6g7HQnZ2dnVY3go2dnZ2d@giganews.com>,
Brenda Ann <newsgroups@fullspectrumradio.org> wrote:
During my visits there, I watched a good deal of TV, and the thing I
noticed most was that the lower framerate didn't play well with
fluorescent lighting. There always seemed to be an easily perceptible
flicker to the picture. Brand of set or signal source (OTA, CATV,
Satellite, tape or VCD) didn't seem to make any difference.

If you have any form of strobe lighting - like fluorescent - you can get
such effects. Regardless of a frame rate of 25 or 30 Hz. But few in the US
would use fluorescent lighting in the same room as their TV.
Click to expand...

Really? Then all those fluorescent lamps were fakes? I statrted
using them over 40 years ago.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article <HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs was
a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in lake
County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a steady
stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were commercial
tapes, not recorded OTA.

You judge a system off domestic tapes? I've also no idea of the technical
standards of such Greek produced stuff. Did you do the same with UK or
German?
Click to expand...

The tapes were fropm all over Europe.


The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the first
instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO tubes. Had a
modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not
have adopted (and been part of the design) of PAL.
Click to expand...

Image Orthicons? That figures.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article <BKWdnaM807JGS7bQnZ2dnUVZ_gCdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

People who never worked in the industry have no clue. They generally
used the cheapest imported TV they could find, then bitched about it.
If they ever saw the video from a TK-46 with a set of new Plumbicons on
a $7,000 studio monitor, they would shoot their digital TVs.

Well, yes. But take that same camera outdoors where you haven't got full
control over the lighting... Oh - and what were the pictures like at
switch on, before an hours worth of line-up?
Click to expand...

It took about six minutes to set up the camera for the ambient
lighting. The rest of the mechanical and electrical setup was very
stable, usually only requiring annual touchup, or a full setup when
installing new Plumbicons.


Luckily, modern cameras are far more suited to use outside of a studio.
Click to expand...

Sure, but they are designed to be used by total idiots. They don't
have the contrast ratio, or other positive characteristics of Plumbicon
cameras. What killed Plumbicons was their size of the camera, and the
$14,000+ price tag on a new set of matched tubes. Use a set of $50,000
lenses on a TK 46 and you'll know what I'm talking about.


Other thing is control room monitors (Grade 1) are designed for close
viewing, so generally in the smaller sizes. Nor have I ever seen a
widescreen CRT with decent geometry and registration. Control room CRTs
even for widescreen were still 4:3, but underscanned, making the small
size even more of an issue.
Click to expand...

Our control room used 25 to 30 inch monitors. Underscan was
switchable. A mask was used with lines to show the hot area for cheap,
overscanned TV sets. Tell us, how many US TV stations did you work at
as an engineer? How many state of the art NTSC studios have you built?
How many years of maintaining a commercial US TV station?



--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
On Tue, 11 Jan 2011 10:46:36 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Plowman (News)"
<dave@davenoise.co.uk> wrote:

In article <9n0oi6hlk9gi4acqlc3b7q880hgi55bc7j@4ax.com>,
Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote:
The reason that everyone did not have a universal TV set was because
the price was kept lower with single system sets and countries like the
UK, which made a substansial income from the TV license did not want
you watching tv from France or the Republic of Ireland for free.

I ran into something like that when I "visited" Israel in the early
1970's.

The UK isn't Israel.
Click to expand...
I know. I just wanted to highlight the political aspects of video
compatibility. If I had time, I would have ranted a bit about the FCC
decision to go with 8VSB instead of COFDM. The short version is that
the FCC would accept anything that was NOT compatible with whetever
Europe (or Japan) was deploying.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
In article <Uo-dncHSW7QwG7HQnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
If you have any form of strobe lighting - like fluorescent - you can
get such effects. Regardless of a frame rate of 25 or 30 Hz. But few
in the US would use fluorescent lighting in the same room as their TV.
Click to expand...

Really? Then all those fluorescent lamps were fakes? I statrted
using them over 40 years ago.
Click to expand...
Ah - sorry. I just assumed the majority in the US had taste.

--
*It ain't the size, it's... er... no, it IS ..the size.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article <Uo-dncHSW7QwG7HQnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
If you have any form of strobe lighting - like fluorescent - you can
get such effects. Regardless of a frame rate of 25 or 30 Hz. But few
in the US would use fluorescent lighting in the same room as their TV.

Really? Then all those fluorescent lamps were fakes? I statrted
using them over 40 years ago.

Ah - sorry. I just assumed the majority in the US had taste.
Click to expand...

Am I to assume that no one in the UK has any taste? Or teeth?


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
In article <Uo-dncDSW7SUGrHQnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Michael
A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs
was a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in
lake County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a
steady stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were
commercial tapes, not recorded OTA.

You judge a system off domestic tapes? I've also no idea of the
technical standards of such Greek produced stuff. Did you do the same
with UK or German?
Click to expand...

The tapes were fropm all over Europe.
Click to expand...
Don't care where they were from - you can't judge any system using
domestic tapes of those days. I'm beginning to wonder about your personal
standards if you think you can.

The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the first
instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO tubes. Had a
modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not
have adopted (and been part of the design) of PAL.
Click to expand...

Image Orthicons? That figures.
Click to expand...
Just when do you think colour cameras stopped using them? The plumbicon
wasn't invented until '60.

--
*Dance like nobody's watching.

Dave Plowman dave@davenoise.co.uk London SW
To e-mail, change noise into sound.
 
"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:
In article <Uo-dncDSW7SUGrHQnZ2dnUVZ_oSdnZ2d@earthlink.com>,
Michael A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

"Dave Plowman (News)" wrote:

In article <HLadnRpsbYA0brbQnZ2dnUVZ_hidnZ2d@earthlink.com>, Michael
A. Terrell <mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:
Want to bet? What I've seen of PAL on multi standard TVs & VCRs
was a sick joke. A man who owned a bunch of Greek restaurants in
lake County, Fl. imported the pair, and his relatives sent him a
steady stream of PAL tapes. They all looked like shit. They were
commercial tapes, not recorded OTA.

You judge a system off domestic tapes? I've also no idea of the
technical standards of such Greek produced stuff. Did you do the same
with UK or German?

The tapes were fropm all over Europe.

Don't care where they were from - you can't judge any system using
domestic tapes of those days. I'm beginning to wonder about your personal
standards if you think you can.
Click to expand...

Yawn. More America bashing. Commercially produced European tapes on
European VCR & TV.


The BBC did extensive testing before introducing colour. In the first
instance with NTSC RCA cameras. Huge things with 3" IO tubes. Had a
modification of NTSC to say 625 50 Hz been the way forward, they'd not
have adopted (and been part of the design) of PAL.

Image Orthicons? That figures.

Just when do you think colour cameras stopped using them? The plumbicon
wasn't invented until '60.
Click to expand...

I have no idea when the BBC quit using them, but Image Orthicons were
short lived in the US. The RCA TK-44 was a vidicon color camera. The
TK 46 was the same camera, but using Plumbicons. Image Orthicons
required a lot more light, and didn't provide as clean of an image as
the Vidicons. A Plumbicon is a Vidicon with a lead oxide faceplate.


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:57:53 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I doubt that any American member of this group has adjusted the
Hue control on their NTSC set for at least 30 years.
True. US receivers use the VIR (Vertical Interval Reference) on
line 20 for chroma phase correction to automagically correct both
static and differential phase errors. I think this started in
about 1980.
??? How can the reference signal correct a differential phase error?


PLL circuits allowed the signals to remain in sync.


** So fucking what ?????????????????? NTSC color started in the
USA in the early 1950s.
The famous irreverent NTSC acronym way predates 1980. You stupid,
fucking cunthead.
The point being that the problems with NTSC had nothing to do with
the design of the system, but the failure of the networks to
establish high standards of image and signal quality. As these were
gradually put into place, the supposed "inherent problems" with NTSC
gradually disappeared. This WAS NOT due to the use of VIR on
consumer receivers. VIR was primarily to catch and correct problems
along the signal chain.

The lie that PAL is somehow inherently superior to NTSC refuses to
die. NTSC is the "better" system. Period.


NTSC-->Never The Same Color?????????
People with green faces, and mangenta sky's? Any time we saw a news
item with a bit of American tv in it, it looked like shit.


So it's our fault that your network wasn't capable of doing proper
video conversion? Did you ever stop to think that they just didn't give
a damn, and making it look bad made their other crap look better?
Click to expand...
How did this devolve into a PAL/NTSC pissing match? From what little TV I
watch in the evening, HD channels on TWC, I think the color rendering is
perfect. And NTSC DVD video is the same. So what's the problem here? A
lack of real things to argue about?



--
Live Fast, Die Young and Leave a Pretty Corpse
 
Meat Plow wrote:
How did this devolve into a PAL/NTSC pissing match? From what little TV I
watch in the evening, HD channels on TWC, I think the color rendering is
perfect. And NTSC DVD video is the same. So what's the problem here? A
lack of real things to argue about?
Click to expand...
It got there because there had to be some justification over which system
was chosen other than the country next door did something else. Then it
devoloved from ignorance of existance of multisystem TVs and VCRs into
justification why they could not exist.

To summarize, by 1985 I had bought, in Philadelphia (USA) the following:
TV set, 19 inch, 25 inch and 14 inch and VHS and BETA VCRS which would play
and record NTSC/60 3.57, NTSC/60 4.43, PAL/50, PAL/60 (TV only) and
SECAM/50 video. Tuners for NTSC, European PAL, UK PAL and non French SECAM
(aka Middle East SECAM).

In 1987 I added a VCR that would record and play PAL/60 and French SECAM.

In 1992 I added a VCR that would do digital conversions between any of the
above.

Geoff.
--
Geoffrey S. Mendelson N3OWJ/4X1GM
Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to misquote it.
 
Meat Plow wrote:
On Mon, 10 Jan 2011 22:57:53 -0500, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

Sjouke Burry wrote:

Michael A. Terrell wrote:
William Sommerwerck wrote:
I doubt that any American member of this group has adjusted the
Hue control on their NTSC set for at least 30 years.
True. US receivers use the VIR (Vertical Interval Reference) on
line 20 for chroma phase correction to automagically correct both
static and differential phase errors. I think this started in
about 1980.
??? How can the reference signal correct a differential phase error?


PLL circuits allowed the signals to remain in sync.


** So fucking what ?????????????????? NTSC color started in the
USA in the early 1950s.
The famous irreverent NTSC acronym way predates 1980. You stupid,
fucking cunthead.
The point being that the problems with NTSC had nothing to do with
the design of the system, but the failure of the networks to
establish high standards of image and signal quality. As these were
gradually put into place, the supposed "inherent problems" with NTSC
gradually disappeared. This WAS NOT due to the use of VIR on
consumer receivers. VIR was primarily to catch and correct problems
along the signal chain.

The lie that PAL is somehow inherently superior to NTSC refuses to
die. NTSC is the "better" system. Period.


NTSC-->Never The Same Color?????????
People with green faces, and mangenta sky's? Any time we saw a news
item with a bit of American tv in it, it looked like shit.


So it's our fault that your network wasn't capable of doing proper
video conversion? Did you ever stop to think that they just didn't give
a damn, and making it look bad made their other crap look better?

How did this devolve into a PAL/NTSC pissing match? From what little TV I
watch in the evening, HD channels on TWC, I think the color rendering is
perfect. And NTSC DVD video is the same. So what's the problem here? A
lack of real things to argue about?
Click to expand...

It starts every time PAL is mentioned. :(


--
You can't fix stupid. You can't even put a band-aid on it, because it's
Teflon coated.
 
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