Turntable skipping--suggestions?

[Sofie]

Harv:
Here are some answers for you:
many snips with replies:

As for the M95ED, Harv, if you have had it for as long as it sounds like
you have, you might want to replace the stylus. Check the Shure site to

If you find a replacement sylus for a baragain price that is too good to
be true it probably will be a cheap imitiation import.... be very
careful.....
make certain it is not a generic replacement but a factory OEM. I have
stumbled accross brand new genuine factory OEM replacement stylii at
garage salesand thrift stores from time to time..

Yes that cartridge has been in my turntable for quite a long time but I
actually looked at it with a 7x or a 10x jeweler's loupe a few weeks ago
and
the diamond still looks perfect. Well, perfect to me, since I have nothing
to compare it to.. I don't think it has thousands of hours of play on it.
Maybe hundreds. So I haven't made the effort to buy a new stylus for it.

Usually, you will need at least a 25X to 50X magnafication to easily see
if the sylus is worn..... loook at the very, very end of the diamond tip,
it
should be rounded.... no flat or chisel shapes.

new, what is the commonly recommended lifespan in terms of
hours before it should be replaced??..

The lifespan in hours is totally dependent on how clean your vinyl is.
If you play dirty or scratchy records it acts like sandpaper to the sylus.
Also, if the tracking force is not correct the stylus will wear
faster (along with your records)..... too heavy accellerates wear...
or too light (the stylus won't stay in the groove during demanding
passages thus causing distortion and stylus/record wear)

of hour recording timer gauge that one could buy and stick on the plynth
of
one's turntable to keep track of how many hours a stylus had been used.. I

Anywhere from 400 to 1000 hours...... LESS OR MORE. I have
some stylii that have several thousand hours on them and they show
very little signs of wear...... clean records, perfect tone arm
alignment, correct stylus pressure, careful handling. Most modern
and precision diamond stylii are replaced because they are damaged
by improper handling and not because they are worn out. The
cantelever shaft can get bent, the diamond tip sheared off, etc, etc.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair

 

[Alan Peterman]

Actually since I used to own a stereo store and probably installed a hundred
M95ED cartridges, AND I still have the Shure stylus guide with the specs, I
actually am quite certain of my answer...

The proper tracking force is .75 to 1.5gm, with 1.25 a fairly optimal value, BUT
the brush takes .5 gm of force, so you need to set the arm for 1.75 gm to get
the actual stylus force to 1.25gm. See the Shure page for the similar M97HE on
the Shure site...

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_phono/m97xe.pdf

On Thu, 07 Aug 2003 15:18:34 GMT, "Harv" <hlaser@socal.rr.com> wrote:

Speaking of tracking force, I own and use a Technics SL-B2 semi automatic
belt drive turntable, bought new geezus, late 1970s? Early 1980s? Anyway, it
still looks like new and works just fine..

In it I run a Shure M95ED/D cartridge, the model that has a little tiny
floating brush ahead of the stylus and a flip down stylus guard.

http://www.harvlaser.com/files/pics/shure.jpg


I have searched high and low, hither and yon (they had some pretty good
restaurants in yon but ya gotta watch out for those speed traps in
hither..).. but can't find the tracking force specs for this model. I
Vega$ly remember 1.25 grams, so I have both the tonearm's counterweight and
anti skating adjusted to 1.25.

Since Usenet is a magic machine into which you can type almost any question
and get an accurate answer,

 

[Sofie]

Alan Peterman:
You are absolutely correct......
.......all of the top end Shure's with brushes are the same...... when you
balance the arm with the brush attached... you set the tracking force dial
on the back of the arm for 0.5 gram additional.... then when a record is
being played, the brush floats on the record and the stylus will then be at
the proper force. Agree that 1.25 gram is optimal for these top end Shure
units..... so the tone arm setting with brush should be 1.75 grams.
Now with the top end Stanton and Pickering cartridge and stylus combinations
that have a brush.... the added brush weight is 1.0 grams so when balancing
the tone arm with a top end Stanton 881S or the famous 681EEE you would set
the tone arm's tracking force dial for 2.0 grams to end up with the optimal
1.0 grams of stylus force for those units. A lot of folks actually prefer
to remove the brush and balance the arm without it and set the tracking
force at the 1.25 grams for the Shure and 1.0 grams for the Stanton.... (or
any other stylus force that they desire) then they re-attach the brush and
do not touch the tone arm's tracking force ring or counterweight..... again
the brush will float on the record thus subtracting it's own weight so the
tracking force will be absolutely correct. The nice thing about the brushes
are that they act as kind of a damper which will assist in minimizing tone
arm bounce when playing warped records.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
-------------------------------------------


"Alan Peterman" <al@scn.rain.com> wrote in message

Actually since I used to own a stereo store and probably installed a
hundred
M95ED cartridges, AND I still have the Shure stylus guide with the specs,
I
actually am quite certain of my answer...

The proper tracking force is .75 to 1.5gm, with 1.25 a fairly optimal
value, BUT
the brush takes .5 gm of force, so you need to set the arm for 1.75 gm to
get
the actual stylus force to 1.25gm. See the Shure page for the similar
M97HE on
the Shure site...

 

[Harv]

"Alan Peterman" <al@scn.rain.com> wrote in message
news:mitbjvkbujstikq800f188db9aap0nqm2r@4ax.com...

Actually since I used to own a stereo store and probably installed a
hundred
M95ED cartridges, AND I still have the Shure stylus guide with the specs,
I
actually am quite certain of my answer...

The proper tracking force is .75 to 1.5gm, with 1.25 a fairly optimal
value, BUT
the brush takes .5 gm of force, so you need to set the arm for 1.75 gm to
get
the actual stylus force to 1.25gm. See the Shure page for the similar
M97HE on
the Shure site...

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_phono/m97xe.pdf

Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll readjust the arm's counterbalance and the
antiskating dial to 1.75 instead of 1.25.

Harv

 

[Alan Peterman]

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 23:42:43 GMT, "Harv" <hlaser@socal.rr.com> wrote:

http://www.shure.com/pdf/userguides/guides_phono/m97xe.pdf

Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll readjust the arm's counterbalance and the
antiskating dial to 1.75 instead of 1.25.

One more comment - the setting of the anti-skate when using a brush is quite
problematic. The skating force is determined by the drag on the stylus - AND
the brush. And I've never seen any real analysis of whether the brush's drag is
more, less or the same as a typical stylus. Plus the brush should tend to
"hold" the stylus in the groove laterally. So setting the antiskate is a pretty
difficult thing to do - which is true even without a brush.

Probably the best way to set the anti-skate is using a test record with some
quite high excursion tracks, and a scope, and then setting the antiskate for
minimum distortion or mistracking. This unfortunately sets the antiskate higher
than is needed for "average" records. So I've been known to set antiskate by
using a blank record, and setting the antiskate so the arm does not skate
inwards or outwards - and average this with the large excursion groove method.

This is well beyond what most people can do. And it's possibly not even worth
mentioning as some arms never even had antiskate - though I personally think
antiskate is a good idea. And just setting it to the value on the arm is
probably a good compromise - though if you look at the large variation between
the settings for conical and elliptical styli you can see it varies a lot.

And now that I've completely confused everyone, I'll be quiet...

 

[William Sommerwerck]

The theoretically correct way to set anti-skating is to adjust it until the
stylus is "centered" at the cueing mark on the front of the cartridge.

 

[Arny Krueger]

"William Sommerwerck" <williams@nwlink.com> wrote in message
news:vjetfbk8gditcc@corp.supernews.com

The theoretically correct way to set anti-skating is to adjust it
until the stylus is "centered" at the cueing mark on the front of the
cartridge.

....and somehow make sure it stays there across the disk.

The skating force is dependent on the linear velocity of the groove as it
passes the stylus, and this is dependent on tracking radius.

Most anti-skating compensators have some kind of kinematic approximation
built in, but in many cases its up to you to adjust it properly.

If you have to pick a compromise, the inner grooves are probably the ones
you want to optimize.

 

[Richard Steinfeld]

Evan,

I just came onto this discussion. A few people have given
you very good input.
I'm very familiar with the Stanton/Pickering line.

I am not familiar with your particular model turntable,
however. But I'll say right up front that I have had the
experience of a tonearm/stylus mismatch with a Stanton 500,
and it was indeed subject to lots of groove leaping.

If you have a decent tonearm (and it sounds like you do from
the tracking force limit that you mentioned), I'd allow that
both of the cartridges you've listed are simply wrong for
your machine. Someone who doesn't know shine from Shitola
sold them to you.

The ALs and the ELs are both disco styli, engineered to
withstand being slammed around by heavy-handed disk jockeys.
The original 500AL was the lowest performer in the entire
Stanton line, suitable for playing top-40 45s at an AM radio
station. These models are made to be used at much higher
tracking force than your arm was intended for and they're
springier rather than complant: that's why your arm is
jumping. If you are serious about preserving your records,
these are simply not the needles you want to be ruining them
with.

During the mid 80s, the 500 was reintroduced in a "Mark II"
series. The 500 is a two-coil moving magnet design dating
from the mid 60s, and the Mark IIs were improved with
advanced rare-earth magnets in the styli. With the exception
of the AL, the three needles in the series were intended for
lighter, more refined use. Indeed, I saw the 500e Mk. II
recommended as a budget audiophile cartridge in an English
review. If I recall, a good force for it is about 2g.

For your 680 or 681 body (a 4-coil induced magnetism
design), you've got to go to a better stylus such as D6800ee
or eee, in any variation. Pickering equivalents will work,
too. If your records are chewed up or badly pressed to begin
with (as many jazz records are), you may be happier with a
larger elliptical than a smaller one. These will ride over
the scratches with less annoying detail than a more
"audiophile" design. I believe that the current version of
the D6800eee has a .3x.7 mil tip, which is a good compromise
size for a lot of listening.

Where to get the right styli is an issue today. Stanton is
not exactly the same company that it used to be, and is now
located in Florida. There have been so many changes in the
styli in recent years that I just don't know what to make of
them. I'm stumped. However, the present stylus that I
mentioned above may just be a winner for you, and it is in
production right now.

My recommendation for a person to buy your styli from would
be Ed Saunders, near Atlanta Georgia.
The beauty of the Stanton products, especially in the older
days, is the ability to mix and match styli in the bodies. I
don't know of any other brand that allows this flexibility
(except for Ortofon, which is a brand that you might also
consider; that's a company that's into cartridges for the
long haul).

Finally, I'd like to second the recommendation that you
mount your turntable on a very strong shelf attached
directly to an outside wall of the building. This is a fine
audiophile tweak that often works. Alternatively, an old
classic for problem floors is the original AR turntable,
which I'm sure was tested in old student pads in the Boston
area. The tonearm isn't fantastic, but it's adequate. It
doesn't have antiskate, but you might induce some
anti-skating by draping the auodio leads just-so.

Let us know how you solved this problem, for sure, and good
luck.

Richard



"EvanInJH" <cubotic13@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8da14fa4.0308070900.5e2024b6@posting.google.com...

Thank you for all the helpful suggestions. I thought the
transit screw
solution was promising, which I remember from my previous
turntable.
However, I couldn't find them on this turntable (a
Technics 3200, not
a 1200, incidentally). There is only a tiny amount of give
in the
suspension of the turntable itself, the rest seems to come
from the
sprung feet, which seem to work OK. I bought the turntable
used a
couple of years ago, it's hard to say what happened to
some of these
things. Perhaps the suspension is not released, but I
can't figure out
how to release it. The way others described this situation
sounded
very much like my problem.

Regarding the cartridge / stylus, I used to have a
D6800EL-II and it
gave me the same problems. The 500 calibrates very close
to the
maximum weight, I can only get about 1.5 grams out of it,
so maybe I
do just have a bad cartridge for the specific turntable.
Daniel Sofie
is right -- the tone arm doesn't go past 3 grams. (PS Any
idea where I
could buy a D5100EE? I don't see it listed on the needle
doctor web
site, and most of the shops I've been to in NY have a
limited
selection).

I also do have wood floors and live in an old apartment
building. It's
sort of like a trampoline. The shelf idea is a
possibility, although
it always seemed to me that the foam / rubber or building
a shelf
solution seemed extreme, and covering up something wrong
with the
turntable system itself. When I know people who set up
there
turntables on card tables and have dance parties, and
there's no
skipping, it seems crazy that tiptoeing around my
apartment in bare
feet should do anything, let alone send my needle
careening around.
But maybe that's just my (considerable) naivete talking
....

So at this point I have three strikes against me ... the
suspension,
wrong needle, and the wood floors. This is starting to
make sense.

If anyone has any suggestions for repair people / shops in
the NYC
area, I'd be most appreciative at this point. Obviously,
my experience
is limited so some of the more technical solutions are
beyond me ("Is
there any play in the tonearm gimbal in either plane?")

Thanks again,
Evan



jak
"Sofie" <sofie@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:vj2af1iv7bqaa1@corp.supernews.com...
EvanInJH:
You did not mention how much stylus tracking force you
have set......
depending on the replacement stylus you purchased for
the Stanton 500 you
should have no less than 2 or 3 grams or so..... some
of the replacement
stylus for the 500 series cartridge specify 3 to 5
grams. The Stanton 500
series is a rugged and reliable model and it is not a
cartridge/stylus
combination that can be operated at the super-light
forces of less than 2
grams. You should check the package your replacement
stylus came in to
verify the correct, factory recommended stylus force
and set the
anti-skate
to match.
--
Best Regards,
Daniel Sofie
Electronics Supply & Repair
---------------------------------------

 

[Sven Franklyn Weil]

In article <j8udjv8fpfu1t5daaoto59h7kf4pqi9ik2@4ax.com>, Alan Peterman wrote:

than is needed for "average" records. So I've been known to set antiskate by
using a blank record, and setting the antiskate so the arm does not skate
inwards or outwards - and average this with the large excursion groove method.

Where do you get blank records from? I've used the blank space at the end
of some records to set anti-skate (before the leadout groove catches it).


Just gotta make sure you're not placing it over where that number is
incised into it.


--
Sven Weil
New York City, U.S.A.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

If you have to pick a compromise, the inner grooves are
probably the ones you want to optimize.

If only because the loudest passages are usually at the end, and you don't want
a significant reduction of tracking force on either channel.

 

[Sven Franklyn Weil]

In article <vjetfbk8gditcc@corp.supernews.com>, William Sommerwerck wrote:

The theoretically correct way to set anti-skating is to adjust it until the
stylus is "centered" at the cueing mark on the front of the cartridge.

Cueing mark? Where?

seriously though -- first you have to make sure the cartridge is perfectly
straight in the headshell - not twisted to either side (that's only if
you're a hip-hop deejay doing a lot of scratching).

Also...has anyone ever noticed that the anti-skate settings for 45s and
33s are slightly different?

Why?

I switch a lot beteween the two formats and it seems that the setting for
12" 33s is too weak for the 7" 45s. I haven't tried it yet with 12" 45s
and 7" 33.3's to see if the same applies.

You have to increase slightly because becasue when you set the needle down
on a7" 45 it immediately gets pulled into the groove, instead of the
needle just hovering there waiting for the lead in to catch it.

PS: Do audiophiles even deign to listen to 45s?

--
Sven Weil
New York City, U.S.A.

 

[William Sommerwerck]

A blank record does not provide correct compensation, because the friction
between the stylus and a blank surface is less than that between the stylus and
a modulated groove.
..
> So I've been known to set antiskate by using a blank record...

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Harv" <hlaser@socal.rr.com> wrote in message
news:OzOZa.26576$8N.1241873@twister.socal.rr.com

"Sven Franklyn Weil" <sven@gordsven.com> wrote in message
news:slrnbjf6ve.nbe.sven@gordsven.com...
In article <j8udjv8fpfu1t5daaoto59h7kf4pqi9ik2@4ax.com>, Alan
Peterman
wrote:
than is needed for "average" records. So I've been known to set
antiskate by using a blank record, and setting the antiskate so the
arm does not
skate
inwards or outwards - and average this with the large excursion
groove method.

Where do you get blank records from? I've used the blank space at
the end of some records to set anti-skate (before the leadout groove
catches it).

I guess ya have to buy that Johnny Winters two album set that has a
blank side on one of the records ..

Just to remind one and all that setting up anti-skating on a blank disk side
is not the right thing to do if you intend to play records with grooves on
them.

 

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:56:16 +0000 (UTC), DPierce@TheWorld.com
(Richard D Pierce) wrote:

In article <vjf924a6gul09f@corp.supernews.com>,
William Sommerwerck <williams@nwlink.com> wrote:
A blank record does not provide correct compensation, because the friction
between the stylus and a blank surface is less than that between the stylus and
a modulated groove.

It may not be more, but more importantly, it is DIFFERENT.

My preferred method is the tracking test on a test disc. Use the level
that is just starting to cause problems, then set the anti-skating
force to give equal distortion on both left and right channels.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

 

[Sven Franklyn Weil]

In article <fnefjvgvonjk9fbape05ahj438a92vnp8k@4ax.com>, Don Pearce wrote:

My preferred method is the tracking test on a test disc. Use the level

I've heard about that too.

Only thing is...are these disks still made and where do you find them?

I assume buying a new one is best, that way you're not relying on someone
else's chewed up copy, right?

--
Sven Weil
New York City, U.S.A.

 

[Stewart Pinkerton]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:50:58 +0100, Don Pearce
<donaldnospam@pearce.uk.com> wrote:

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 14:56:16 +0000 (UTC), DPierce@TheWorld.com
(Richard D Pierce) wrote:

In article <vjf924a6gul09f@corp.supernews.com>,
William Sommerwerck <williams@nwlink.com> wrote:
A blank record does not provide correct compensation, because the friction
between the stylus and a blank surface is less than that between the stylus and
a modulated groove.

It may not be more, but more importantly, it is DIFFERENT.

My preferred method is the tracking test on a test disc. Use the level
that is just starting to cause problems, then set the anti-skating
force to give equal distortion on both left and right channels.

Agreed. I've found that to be by far the most accurate method.
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

[Richard D Pierce]

In article <vjf924a6gul09f@corp.supernews.com>,
William Sommerwerck <williams@nwlink.com> wrote:

A blank record does not provide correct compensation, because the friction
between the stylus and a blank surface is less than that between the stylus and
a modulated groove.

It may not be more, but more importantly, it is DIFFERENT.

--
| Dick Pierce |
| Professional Audio Development |
| 1-781/826-4953 Voice and FAX |
| DPierce@world.std.com |

 

[Alan Peterman]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 11:33:15 -0400, "Arny Krueger" <arnyk@hotpop.com> wrote:

In article <j8udjv8fpfu1t5daaoto59h7kf4pqi9ik2@4ax.com>, Alan
Peterman
wrote:
than is needed for "average" records. So I've been known to set
antiskate by using a blank record, and setting the antiskate so the
arm does not
skate
inwards or outwards - and average this with the large excursion
groove method.

Just to remind one and all that setting up anti-skating on a blank disk side
is not the right thing to do if you intend to play records with grooves on
them.

If you'll notice, when I started this discussion of antiskate, I said that I use
BOTH methods (blank record and test grooves), and average them. While I can see
that the test grooves are a better way, they also have a limitation in that most
records are not modulated to anywhere near that level. And the drag, and
corresponding antiskate are related to groove modulation.

OK?

 

[Don Pearce]

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:10:46 GMT, sven@gordsven.com (Sven Franklyn
Weil) wrote:

In article <fnefjvgvonjk9fbape05ahj438a92vnp8k@4ax.com>, Don Pearce wrote:
My preferred method is the tracking test on a test disc. Use the level

I've heard about that too.

Only thing is...are these disks still made and where do you find them?

I assume buying a new one is best, that way you're not relying on someone
else's chewed up copy, right?

Hi Fi News and Record Review do one.

d

_____________________________

http://www.pearce.uk.com

 

[Arny Krueger]

"Don Pearce" <donaldnospam@pearce.uk.com> wrote in message
news:gcnfjvkc0rmtoccro2j2aq9cisvdieskir@4ax.com

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 16:10:46 GMT, sven@gordsven.com (Sven Franklyn
Weil) wrote:

In article <fnefjvgvonjk9fbape05ahj438a92vnp8k@4ax.com>, Don Pearce
wrote:
My preferred method is the tracking test on a test disc. Use the
level

I've heard about that too.

Only thing is...are these disks still made and where do you find
them?

I assume buying a new one is best, that way you're not relying on
someone else's chewed up copy, right?

Hi Fi News and Record Review do one.

I'll second that.