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snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant
troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for
militia membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment addresses the state militias (the national
militia is addressed in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is a
statement that gives *a* reason for
the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal view
of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes. Here is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC
311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided
in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who
are, or who have made
a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the
United States and of female citizens of the United
States who are members of
the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard
or the Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85-861,
Sec.
1(7),
Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160, div. A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions of
their state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the federal
statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership is NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and
bear arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view

A statute is NOT written by the courts, stupid

but it certainly is interpreted by the Courts.


Feel free to cite the cases where it was
Take as many screens as you need

The abortion cases, religion in schools

I do not believe that either of those have anything to do with
militias and what you claim is the "liberal view" they have for
what the militia is.

Care to try again without attempting to change the subject?

They have to do with the Supreme Court interpreting legislation
and i should add the death penalty laws. These have been legal or
not dependent on the supreme courts interpretatation

Only if there is a case challenging them on constitutional grounds.
The courts do not review legislation or interpret it unless there
appears to be a problem that is coming up through the court system.

They do interpret it because opinions on the same bit of legislation
change i.e. death penalty and Wade v?



What bit of legislation was interpreted in Roe v Wade? Please be
specific and show that interpretation of that legislation was the
deciding factor in the decision. Take all the screens you need.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade redefined the status of
abortion in the US WITHOUT legislative changes
What's your point? You were declaring that the courts rewrote
legislation.

--

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Sleep well, tonight.....

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snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for militia
membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment
addresses the state militias (the national militia is
addressed
in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is a statement that gives *a*
reason for the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal
view of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes.
Here
is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC 311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in
section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or
who
have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of
the
United States and of female citizens of the United States
who
are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members
of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or
the
Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85-861,
Sec.
1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160, div.
A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions of
their
state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the federal
statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership
is
NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and bear
arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view



On what? What the militia is (your first statement)? It has
been
defined pretty much the same since 1792.

Or do you mean the Supreme Court in the Heller decision? That
came
about in 2008, but was basically what has been claimed for
decades.

yes


To which? Or to both?

sorry, both



What do you think that they got wrong or should change?

not my role to critisise your highest court

Then why even bring it up? You stated that you thought their opinions
were too liberal. How did you mean that?

I stated they took a liberal interpretation
Which case are you whining about now? Before it was the definition of
the militia which has remained for decades and was first defined in 1792.

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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snip

Dealing with a 5 stupid year old is easier
Which current gun licensing laws in
Australia
Be SPECIFIC, instead of trying to weasel
with vague
generalizations.

that is specific as one can get

I'll accept that as an admission you don't
know

as a gun owner I do and those are the laws

fyi

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforc
e/ su bord le g+
512+
2006+FIRST+0+N

LOL
You need a permission to own a paint-ball gun
You need a permit to stage paint-ball games
Talk about a nanny state.
Ironic that since gun control was clamped down
post Port Arthur, things have gotten worse.

have they?

Yes they have
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today newspaper
discovered
in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996 laws
banning most
guns
and making it a crime to use a gun
defensively,
armed robberies rose by 51%,
unarmed robberies by 37%,
assaults by 24%
and kidnappings by 43%.
While murders fell by 3%,
manslaughter rose by 16%."
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce
crime,"
USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley,
"Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur,"
The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).

I'll stop there because that statement is BS

Prove it, false weasel-boi
But remember
If you get punished for keeping a loaded gun for
self defense,
you
have
effectively made it illegal to use a gun
defensively,
by making it IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you already have a
loaded gun at hand.
In which case the government can come after you
for using that
gun
defensively.


it is not illegal to use a gun defensively in
Australia, most guns in Aus were not banned post 1996

While that is true, it is illegal in Oz to purchase or
to carry one
for
the stated purpose of self defense.

correct in all but very limited cases

With a few million citizens, "all but very limited"
doesn't help much.

but not really needed in Aus

Ahhhh, no one is ever murdered or a victim of violent
crime
in OZ? Methinks you are full of shit.

and the consequences of "carry for
protection" laws in the US can be seen by the mess they
are in.

What mess is that?

Interestingly it is very hard to find info on defensive
gun use in the US, one figure put around is 2.5 million
per year but the crimes that led to guns being drawn
don't
seem to be reported to the authorities

You can look at Gary Kleck's study.....that is where the
.25 million number
comes from.
You can look at the NCVS (National Crime Victimization
Study) it comes up with 80,000 to 108,000 per year and
never asks about DGUs. You can also look at the following
surveys:

Field 1976 3,052,717
Burdua 1977 1,414,544
DM1a 1978 2,141,512
DM1b 1978 1,098,409
Hart 1981 1,797,461
Ohio 1982 771,043
Mauser 1990 1,487,342
Gallup 1991 777,153
Gallup 1993 1,621,682
LA Times 1994 3,609,682
Tarrance 1994 764,036

so it isn't really that big a safeguard



Oh, I don't know. I would much rather be part of those in
the surveys above than one of the 10-12,000 who die from
some
street scab with a gun.

Sorry and should add that if these figures are correct
than surely police data would back them up



When even as you suggested, most of these involve no shots
fired or the police? How would the police generate data if
they are not involved?

People are so threatened they draw a gun but don't report it
thus letting crims run free. bizarre argument

Silly dedummy.
Presumes that making a police report automatically results in an
arrest.

strawman arguement. If you report the crime there is a better
chance of an arrest


In some areas that would mean the chances would go from less than
1% to just over 1%.

a great benefit. I'm more and more believing that DGU figures by
survey are complete and utter BS

You may feel free to believe what you want. As am I. I find my gun
to be of a great benefit and, guess what? It is always there, it is
always ready, I don't need to dial 911 and I don't have to wait. I
have been in situations before and it has never failed me or failed
to show up.


yet you don't report these crimes

The police HAVE failed to show up.

really? but probably a threat by a bear is more a wildlife situation



We sometimes get them in towns. We also sometimes get mountain lions,
coyotes,
nice puppy dogs, we get wild dogs as well

javelinas,
did the nasty piggy thing eat your veggies, my .222 took out the wild pigs
on my place

bobcats, etc..
we have feral cats bigger than that :)


anyhow isn't shooting wildlife in town considered illegal?


We also sometimes run into drug
runners, two legged coyotes, and illegal aliens.
Do these have signs on them so you know who to shoot?
 
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snip

Most of the time here it is a waste of time. They have other
things to do and active crimes going on.

Probably is but it may help and does help the cops target crime.

They are already targetting crime. They often don't wish to get
interrupted at that unless the crime you are reporting is of higher
importance. It the incident is over, no one got hurt, the perps
are gone...that isn't very high priority.

so crime prevention isn't important in the Us


If I
was so scared I produced a gun I'd be telling the authority for
the simple reason it may help the community

You have not been in that position and you don't know the
conditions in the US. Let me ask you this about OZ. Assume you
are carrying a firearm for self defense. A couple guys try to mug
you. You scare them off with the gun. Are you going to call the
police? And face questions about why you are carrying a gun when
it is obvious you aren't hunting, you are in a strange town and
carrying a gun in OZ for the purpose of self defense is illegal.
You call the police to report a crime that most likely be put in
the wastebasket....face all those questions....possibly spend some
time in a cell yourself while the police sort things out and there
will be no followup? You will call the police? I don't think so.

but carrying a gun in the US for self defense isn't illegal so your
argument is null and void



Actually, no, it isn't. In some localities it IS illegal to carry
that gun concealed without a permit and open carry is not allowed.
In some localities, local police simple frown on those who carry and
will hassle them. The scenario I gave you is as close to that as you
twits in OZ can get. I see you don't have the balls to answer it.
That rather makes any further communication with you moot.

I answered it in term of Aus



But I don't live in OZ and you are arguing US gun politics.
OK IF I was illegally carrying a hand gun and used it to shoot someone or
pulled it out if threatened I wouldn't report it to the police. however if I
was at home and felt so threatened I got my rifle than I certainly would
report it to the police
 
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I think the armed forces given their
experience may know about these
dangers

They may know about them, but since they rely
on the local suppliers to supply them, how
long do you think
they will last if the turn on the very people
they are
supposed to protect ?

come on a capitalist society like the US
they'll always
be able to buy supplies

From whom?

How will they get it to where it is needed?

Do you think they can protect EVERYTHING
24/7/365?

I think they stand a better chance than some
comparatively
lightly lightly armed militia

LOL
Tell that to the Swiss who have successfully done
exactly
that for centuries
Tell that to the Fins when the stood up the
Soviets in the
Winter War. Tell that to the Americans who did
that to the
Brits at the beginning of their Revolution.
Tell that to Castro in Cuba
Tell that to the Costa Ricans in 2 if not 3 of
their revolutions.

do you want to go through the differences :)

Why don't you start with the similarities, moron.

there aren't any

Actually they are, but clearly you're not smart
enough to
recognize
them

coming from a bloke who compares the US with Mexico
but discounts Canada that is hilarious


Well, the difference is mostly demographics. Think
that might have
a
tad to do with the differences?

I agree with you that there are differences but are you
suggesting
that demographically the US is closer to Mexico than
Canada?


Many parts of it are. Most of the US doesn't have a
heavy duty
problem
with crime. Problem is that you only need to be a victim
once to
die.


that is not true of being a victim in Aus



What isn't true? They don't die? It takes more than once?

because the most crime in Aus does not result in death.

Most crime in the US doesn't result in death. What's your
point?
That
most victims do not suffer death or injury? Okay.....

you said "Problem is that you only need to be a victim once to
die."

Which is true. basically. You could be killed anytime you
become a victim.

BS in Aus most victims don't end up dead


They don't
Cite please

well there is a lot of crime in Aus and very few victims end up
dead

LOL
And there is quite a bit of crime in the US, and a lot of our
criminals
end up dead.

do they figures and cites please


I call that a good thing.
Why don't you just admit, that you're just afraid of losing
family

why? we are safe I'm not so paranoid that I need to carry.



I am not paranoid either. If something should happen, I simply have
one more option than you do.

but the consequence of this can be seen in your death and injury rates
from firearms, which is the point I am making



Not mine. I have had no injury and I am still very much alive. How old
are you?
I was thinking of society as a whole. I'm old enough and yes have been shot
 
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snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for militia
membership for
the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment
addresses the
state militias (the national militia is addressed in
ArtI(8)(16)) but
what it is is a statement that gives *a* reason for the
protection of
that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal
view of what a militia is

No they have not

yes they have

That's just YOUR ignorant (as usual) interpretation

no that is the courts.

Must suck to have an Aussie telling you about the
constitution
as
you are to ignorant


The definition of the militia has NOT been done by the Courts,
dummy It was made by STATUTE.

read the rulings and learn

I did

comprehension not your strong point?

What's your point? What are you looking at to develop that point?

that the supreme court interprets law ie Wade V ? DoC V ?



Yep, but that law was legislated by the Congress not the Court.

but interpreted by the Court

Not unless there is a case that requires interpretation. The
judiciary
does not sit around and interpret laws.

but when it comes before the courts they do



Yep and I said that a week ago.
so why keep arguing
 
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snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant
troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for
militia membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment addresses the state militias (the national
militia is addressed in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is a
statement that gives *a* reason for
the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal view
of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes. Here is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC
311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided
in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who
are, or who have made
a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the
United States and of female citizens of the United
States who are members of
the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard
or the Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85-861,
Sec.
1(7),
Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160, div. A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions of
their state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the federal
statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership is NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and
bear arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view

A statute is NOT written by the courts, stupid

but it certainly is interpreted by the Courts.


Feel free to cite the cases where it was
Take as many screens as you need

The abortion cases, religion in schools

I do not believe that either of those have anything to do with
militias and what you claim is the "liberal view" they have for
what the militia is.

Care to try again without attempting to change the subject?

They have to do with the Supreme Court interpreting legislation
and i should add the death penalty laws. These have been legal or
not dependent on the supreme courts interpretatation

Only if there is a case challenging them on constitutional grounds.
The courts do not review legislation or interpret it unless there
appears to be a problem that is coming up through the court system.

They do interpret it because opinions on the same bit of legislation
change i.e. death penalty and Wade v?



What bit of legislation was interpreted in Roe v Wade? Please be
specific and show that interpretation of that legislation was the
deciding factor in the decision. Take all the screens you need.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade redefined the status of
abortion in the US WITHOUT legislative changes



What's your point? You were declaring that the courts rewrote
legislation.
They interpret legislation something you apparently agreed with me a week
ago about
 
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snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for militia
membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment
addresses the state militias (the national militia is
addressed
in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is a statement that gives *a*
reason for the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal
view of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes.
Here
is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC 311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided in
section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who are, or
who
have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens of
the
United States and of female citizens of the United States
who
are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members
of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard or
the
Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85-861,
Sec.
1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160, div.
A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions of
their
state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the federal
statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership
is
NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and bear
arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view



On what? What the militia is (your first statement)? It has
been
defined pretty much the same since 1792.

Or do you mean the Supreme Court in the Heller decision? That
came
about in 2008, but was basically what has been claimed for
decades.

yes


To which? Or to both?

sorry, both



What do you think that they got wrong or should change?

not my role to critisise your highest court

Then why even bring it up? You stated that you thought their opinions
were too liberal. How did you mean that?

I stated they took a liberal interpretation



Which case are you whining about now?
I'm not


Before it was the definition of
the militia which has remained for decades and was first defined in 1792.

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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snip

Dealing with a 5 stupid year old is
easier Which current gun licensing laws
in
Australia
Be SPECIFIC, instead of trying to
weasel with vague
generalizations.

that is specific as one can get

I'll accept that as an admission you don't
know

as a gun owner I do and those are the laws

fyi

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforc
e/ su bord le g+
512+
2006+FIRST+0+N

LOL
You need a permission to own a paint-ball
gun You need a permit to stage paint-ball
games
Talk about a nanny state.
Ironic that since gun control was clamped
down post Port Arthur, things have gotten
worse.

have they?

Yes they have
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today
newspaper discovered
in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996
laws banning most
guns
and making it a crime to use a gun
defensively,
armed robberies rose by 51%,
unarmed robberies by 37%,
assaults by 24%
and kidnappings by 43%.
While murders fell by 3%,
manslaughter rose by 16%."
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce
crime,"
USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley,
"Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur,"
The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).

I'll stop there because that statement is BS

Prove it, false weasel-boi
But remember
If you get punished for keeping a loaded gun
for self defense,
you
have
effectively made it illegal to use a gun
defensively,
by making it IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you already have a
loaded gun at hand.
In which case the government can come after
you for using that
gun
defensively.


it is not illegal to use a gun defensively in
Australia, most guns in Aus were not banned post
1996

While that is true, it is illegal in Oz to purchase
or to carry one
for
the stated purpose of self defense.

correct in all but very limited cases

With a few million citizens, "all but very limited"
doesn't help much.

but not really needed in Aus

Ahhhh, no one is ever murdered or a victim of violent
crime
in OZ? Methinks you are full of shit.

and the consequences of "carry for
protection" laws in the US can be seen by the mess
they are in.

What mess is that?

Interestingly it is very hard to find info on
defensive gun use in the US, one figure put around is
2.5 million per year but the crimes that led to guns
being drawn
don't
seem to be reported to the authorities

You can look at Gary Kleck's study.....that is where
the .25 million number
comes from.
You can look at the NCVS (National Crime Victimization
Study) it comes up with 80,000 to 108,000 per year and
never asks about DGUs. You can also look at the
following surveys:

Field 1976 3,052,717
Burdua 1977 1,414,544
DM1a 1978 2,141,512
DM1b 1978 1,098,409
Hart 1981 1,797,461
Ohio 1982 771,043
Mauser 1990 1,487,342
Gallup 1991 777,153
Gallup 1993 1,621,682
LA Times 1994 3,609,682
Tarrance 1994 764,036

so it isn't really that big a safeguard



Oh, I don't know. I would much rather be part of those
in the surveys above than one of the 10-12,000 who die
from
some
street scab with a gun.

Sorry and should add that if these figures are
correct than surely police data would back them up



When even as you suggested, most of these involve no shots
fired or the police? How would the police generate data if
they are not involved?

People are so threatened they draw a gun but don't report it
thus letting crims run free. bizarre argument

Silly dedummy.
Presumes that making a police report automatically results in
an arrest.

strawman arguement. If you report the crime there is a better
chance of an arrest


In some areas that would mean the chances would go from less
than 1% to just over 1%.

a great benefit. I'm more and more believing that DGU figures by
survey are complete and utter BS

You may feel free to believe what you want. As am I. I find my
gun to be of a great benefit and, guess what? It is always there,
it is always ready, I don't need to dial 911 and I don't have to
wait. I have been in situations before and it has never failed me
or failed to show up.


yet you don't report these crimes

The police HAVE failed to show up.

really? but probably a threat by a bear is more a wildlife situation



We sometimes get them in towns. We also sometimes get mountain
lions, coyotes,

nice puppy dogs, we get wild dogs as well

javelinas,

did the nasty piggy thing eat your veggies, my .222 took out the wild
pigs on my place

bobcats, etc..

we have feral cats bigger than that :)


anyhow isn't shooting wildlife in town considered illegal?
I don't live in town.

We also sometimes run into drug
runners, two legged coyotes, and illegal aliens.

Do these have signs on them so you know who to shoot?
You get to know which ones are which.


--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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snip

Most of the time here it is a waste of time. They have other
things to do and active crimes going on.

Probably is but it may help and does help the cops target crime.

They are already targetting crime. They often don't wish to get
interrupted at that unless the crime you are reporting is of
higher importance. It the incident is over, no one got hurt, the
perps are gone...that isn't very high priority.

so crime prevention isn't important in the Us


If I
was so scared I produced a gun I'd be telling the authority for
the simple reason it may help the community

You have not been in that position and you don't know the
conditions in the US. Let me ask you this about OZ. Assume you
are carrying a firearm for self defense. A couple guys try to
mug you. You scare them off with the gun. Are you going to call
the police? And face questions about why you are carrying a gun
when it is obvious you aren't hunting, you are in a strange town
and carrying a gun in OZ for the purpose of self defense is
illegal. You call the police to report a crime that most likely
be put in the wastebasket....face all those questions....possibly
spend some time in a cell yourself while the police sort things
out and there will be no followup? You will call the police? I
don't think so.

but carrying a gun in the US for self defense isn't illegal so
your argument is null and void



Actually, no, it isn't. In some localities it IS illegal to carry
that gun concealed without a permit and open carry is not allowed.
In some localities, local police simple frown on those who carry
and will hassle them. The scenario I gave you is as close to that
as you twits in OZ can get. I see you don't have the balls to
answer it. That rather makes any further communication with you
moot.

I answered it in term of Aus



But I don't live in OZ and you are arguing US gun politics.

OK IF I was illegally carrying a hand gun and used it to shoot someone
or pulled it out if threatened I wouldn't report it to the police.
however if I was at home and felt so threatened I got my rifle than I
certainly would report it to the police
Most incidents don't occur at home.

Let me tell you a little story. I used to live a small community about 8
to 10 miles out in the county. I got about 5 or 6 calls one night from
some stranger for someone who didn't live there. It was a wrong number
call, I assume. Anyway, after the fourth or fifth call, the person was
adamant that he had the right number and if I didn't put the guy on the
phone he was going to come out and shoot my ass. I told him to screw off
and hung up. He called back, gave me his name and stated he was a deputy
sheriff He was going to come and get me if I didn't put this dude on the
phone. I told him again there we not such person at my number. He got
abusive and I hung up on him. He called back and threatened me again.
So I hung up again and called the sheriff's department. Told them what
was going on and they said that they were too busy to come out. They
asked me if I thought my life was in danger. I said, I didn't know, how
good a shot was this asshole? They simply repeated that they were too
busy to come out. I told them to call their deputy on the radio and tell
him that if he came out, his friends could come and bury him. Incident
ended. No followups whatsoever from the sheriff's department and you
want to know why I wouldn't call the cops if I ended an incident without
a shot being fired?


--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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I think the armed forces given their
experience may know about these
dangers

They may know about them, but since they
rely on the local suppliers to supply them,
how long do you think
they will last if the turn on the very
people they are
supposed to protect ?

come on a capitalist society like the US
they'll always
be able to buy supplies

From whom?

How will they get it to where it is needed?

Do you think they can protect EVERYTHING
24/7/365?

I think they stand a better chance than some
comparatively
lightly lightly armed militia

LOL
Tell that to the Swiss who have successfully
done exactly
that for centuries
Tell that to the Fins when the stood up the
Soviets in the
Winter War. Tell that to the Americans who did
that to the
Brits at the beginning of their Revolution.
Tell that to Castro in Cuba
Tell that to the Costa Ricans in 2 if not 3 of
their revolutions.

do you want to go through the differences :)

Why don't you start with the similarities, moron.

there aren't any

Actually they are, but clearly you're not smart
enough to
recognize
them

coming from a bloke who compares the US with Mexico
but discounts Canada that is hilarious


Well, the difference is mostly demographics. Think
that might have
a
tad to do with the differences?

I agree with you that there are differences but are
you
suggesting
that demographically the US is closer to Mexico than
Canada?


Many parts of it are. Most of the US doesn't have a
heavy duty
problem
with crime. Problem is that you only need to be a
victim once to
die.


that is not true of being a victim in Aus



What isn't true? They don't die? It takes more than
once?

because the most crime in Aus does not result in death.

Most crime in the US doesn't result in death. What's your
point?
That
most victims do not suffer death or injury? Okay.....

you said "Problem is that you only need to be a victim once
to die."

Which is true. basically. You could be killed anytime you
become a victim.

BS in Aus most victims don't end up dead


They don't
Cite please

well there is a lot of crime in Aus and very few victims end up
dead

LOL
And there is quite a bit of crime in the US, and a lot of our
criminals
end up dead.

do they figures and cites please


I call that a good thing.
Why don't you just admit, that you're just afraid of losing
family

why? we are safe I'm not so paranoid that I need to carry.



I am not paranoid either. If something should happen, I simply
have one more option than you do.

but the consequence of this can be seen in your death and injury
rates from firearms, which is the point I am making



Not mine. I have had no injury and I am still very much alive. How
old are you?

I was thinking of society as a whole. I'm old enough and yes have been
shot
Sorry to hear that.....join the club.

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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.
snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant
troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for
militia membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment addresses the state militias (the national
militia is addressed in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is
a statement that gives *a* reason for
the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal view
of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes. Here is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC
311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided
in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who
are, or who have made
a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the
United States and of female citizens of the United
States who are members of
the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members of
the militia who are not members of the National
Guard or the Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L.
85-861, Sec.
1(7),
Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160, div. A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions
of their state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the
federal statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership is NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and
bear arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view

A statute is NOT written by the courts, stupid

but it certainly is interpreted by the Courts.


Feel free to cite the cases where it was
Take as many screens as you need

The abortion cases, religion in schools

I do not believe that either of those have anything to do with
militias and what you claim is the "liberal view" they have for
what the militia is.

Care to try again without attempting to change the subject?

They have to do with the Supreme Court interpreting legislation
and i should add the death penalty laws. These have been legal
or not dependent on the supreme courts interpretatation

Only if there is a case challenging them on constitutional
grounds. The courts do not review legislation or interpret it
unless there appears to be a problem that is coming up through
the court system.

They do interpret it because opinions on the same bit of
legislation change i.e. death penalty and Wade v?



What bit of legislation was interpreted in Roe v Wade? Please be
specific and show that interpretation of that legislation was the
deciding factor in the decision. Take all the screens you need.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade redefined the status of
abortion in the US WITHOUT legislative changes



What's your point? You were declaring that the courts rewrote
legislation.

They interpret legislation something you apparently agreed with me a
week ago about
Yep but it isn't a blanket interpretation. They interpret law as to its
constitutionality WHEN the situation arises to do so. And only then.

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant
troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for
militia
membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment
addresses the state militias (the national militia is
addressed
in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is a statement that gives
*a* reason for the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal
view of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes.
Here
is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC
311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided
in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who
are, or
who
have made a declaration of intention to become, citizens
of
the
United States and of female citizens of the United
States
who
are members of the National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members
of
the militia who are not members of the National Guard
or
the
Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L. 85-861,
Sec.
1(7), Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160,
div.
A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions of
their
state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the federal
statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership
is
NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and
bear arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view



On what? What the militia is (your first statement)? It has
been
defined pretty much the same since 1792.

Or do you mean the Supreme Court in the Heller decision?
That
came
about in 2008, but was basically what has been claimed for
decades.

yes


To which? Or to both?

sorry, both



What do you think that they got wrong or should change?

not my role to critisise your highest court

Then why even bring it up? You stated that you thought their
opinions were too liberal. How did you mean that?

I stated they took a liberal interpretation



Which case are you whining about now?

I'm not


Before it was the definition of
the militia which has remained for decades and was first defined in
1792.

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
That works..... ;)

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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snip

Dealing with a 5 stupid year old is
easier Which current gun licensing laws
in
Australia
Be SPECIFIC, instead of trying to
weasel with vague
generalizations.

that is specific as one can get

I'll accept that as an admission you don't
know

as a gun owner I do and those are the laws

fyi

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforc
e/ su bord le g+
512+
2006+FIRST+0+N

LOL
You need a permission to own a paint-ball
gun You need a permit to stage paint-ball
games
Talk about a nanny state.
Ironic that since gun control was clamped
down post Port Arthur, things have gotten
worse.

have they?

Yes they have
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today
newspaper discovered
in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996
laws banning most
guns
and making it a crime to use a gun
defensively,
armed robberies rose by 51%,
unarmed robberies by 37%,
assaults by 24%
and kidnappings by 43%.
While murders fell by 3%,
manslaughter rose by 16%."
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce
crime,"
USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley,
"Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur,"
The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).

I'll stop there because that statement is BS

Prove it, false weasel-boi
But remember
If you get punished for keeping a loaded gun
for self defense,
you
have
effectively made it illegal to use a gun
defensively,
by making it IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you already have a
loaded gun at hand.
In which case the government can come after
you for using that
gun
defensively.


it is not illegal to use a gun defensively in
Australia, most guns in Aus were not banned post
1996

While that is true, it is illegal in Oz to purchase
or to carry one
for
the stated purpose of self defense.

correct in all but very limited cases

With a few million citizens, "all but very limited"
doesn't help much.

but not really needed in Aus

Ahhhh, no one is ever murdered or a victim of violent
crime
in OZ? Methinks you are full of shit.

and the consequences of "carry for
protection" laws in the US can be seen by the mess
they are in.

What mess is that?

Interestingly it is very hard to find info on
defensive gun use in the US, one figure put around is
2.5 million per year but the crimes that led to guns
being drawn
don't
seem to be reported to the authorities

You can look at Gary Kleck's study.....that is where
the .25 million number
comes from.
You can look at the NCVS (National Crime Victimization
Study) it comes up with 80,000 to 108,000 per year and
never asks about DGUs. You can also look at the
following surveys:

Field 1976 3,052,717
Burdua 1977 1,414,544
DM1a 1978 2,141,512
DM1b 1978 1,098,409
Hart 1981 1,797,461
Ohio 1982 771,043
Mauser 1990 1,487,342
Gallup 1991 777,153
Gallup 1993 1,621,682
LA Times 1994 3,609,682
Tarrance 1994 764,036

so it isn't really that big a safeguard



Oh, I don't know. I would much rather be part of those
in the surveys above than one of the 10-12,000 who die
from
some
street scab with a gun.

Sorry and should add that if these figures are
correct than surely police data would back them up



When even as you suggested, most of these involve no shots
fired or the police? How would the police generate data if
they are not involved?

People are so threatened they draw a gun but don't report it
thus letting crims run free. bizarre argument

Silly dedummy.
Presumes that making a police report automatically results in
an arrest.

strawman arguement. If you report the crime there is a better
chance of an arrest


In some areas that would mean the chances would go from less
than 1% to just over 1%.

a great benefit. I'm more and more believing that DGU figures by
survey are complete and utter BS

You may feel free to believe what you want. As am I. I find my
gun to be of a great benefit and, guess what? It is always there,
it is always ready, I don't need to dial 911 and I don't have to
wait. I have been in situations before and it has never failed me
or failed to show up.


yet you don't report these crimes

The police HAVE failed to show up.

really? but probably a threat by a bear is more a wildlife situation



We sometimes get them in towns. We also sometimes get mountain
lions, coyotes,

nice puppy dogs, we get wild dogs as well

javelinas,

did the nasty piggy thing eat your veggies, my .222 took out the wild
pigs on my place

bobcats, etc..

we have feral cats bigger than that :)


anyhow isn't shooting wildlife in town considered illegal?

I don't live in town.

We also sometimes run into drug
runners, two legged coyotes, and illegal aliens.

Do these have signs on them so you know who to shoot?

You get to know which ones are which.


--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
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snip

Dealing with a 5 stupid year old is
easier Which current gun licensing laws
in
Australia
Be SPECIFIC, instead of trying to
weasel with vague
generalizations.

that is specific as one can get

I'll accept that as an admission you don't
know

as a gun owner I do and those are the laws

fyi

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforc
e/ su bord le g+
512+
2006+FIRST+0+N

LOL
You need a permission to own a paint-ball
gun You need a permit to stage paint-ball
games
Talk about a nanny state.
Ironic that since gun control was clamped
down post Port Arthur, things have gotten
worse.

have they?

Yes they have
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today
newspaper discovered
in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996
laws banning most
guns
and making it a crime to use a gun
defensively,
armed robberies rose by 51%,
unarmed robberies by 37%,
assaults by 24%
and kidnappings by 43%.
While murders fell by 3%,
manslaughter rose by 16%."
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce
crime,"
USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley,
"Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur,"
The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).

I'll stop there because that statement is BS

Prove it, false weasel-boi
But remember
If you get punished for keeping a loaded gun
for self defense,
you
have
effectively made it illegal to use a gun
defensively,
by making it IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you already have a
loaded gun at hand.
In which case the government can come after
you for using that
gun
defensively.


it is not illegal to use a gun defensively in
Australia, most guns in Aus were not banned post
1996

While that is true, it is illegal in Oz to purchase
or to carry one
for
the stated purpose of self defense.

correct in all but very limited cases

With a few million citizens, "all but very limited"
doesn't help much.

but not really needed in Aus

Ahhhh, no one is ever murdered or a victim of violent
crime
in OZ? Methinks you are full of shit.

and the consequences of "carry for
protection" laws in the US can be seen by the mess
they are in.

What mess is that?

Interestingly it is very hard to find info on
defensive gun use in the US, one figure put around is
2.5 million per year but the crimes that led to guns
being drawn
don't
seem to be reported to the authorities

You can look at Gary Kleck's study.....that is where
the .25 million number
comes from.
You can look at the NCVS (National Crime Victimization
Study) it comes up with 80,000 to 108,000 per year and
never asks about DGUs. You can also look at the
following surveys:

Field 1976 3,052,717
Burdua 1977 1,414,544
DM1a 1978 2,141,512
DM1b 1978 1,098,409
Hart 1981 1,797,461
Ohio 1982 771,043
Mauser 1990 1,487,342
Gallup 1991 777,153
Gallup 1993 1,621,682
LA Times 1994 3,609,682
Tarrance 1994 764,036

so it isn't really that big a safeguard



Oh, I don't know. I would much rather be part of those
in the surveys above than one of the 10-12,000 who die
from
some
street scab with a gun.

Sorry and should add that if these figures are
correct than surely police data would back them up



When even as you suggested, most of these involve no shots
fired or the police? How would the police generate data if
they are not involved?

People are so threatened they draw a gun but don't report it
thus letting crims run free. bizarre argument

Silly dedummy.
Presumes that making a police report automatically results in
an arrest.

strawman arguement. If you report the crime there is a better
chance of an arrest


In some areas that would mean the chances would go from less
than 1% to just over 1%.

a great benefit. I'm more and more believing that DGU figures by
survey are complete and utter BS

You may feel free to believe what you want. As am I. I find my
gun to be of a great benefit and, guess what? It is always there,
it is always ready, I don't need to dial 911 and I don't have to
wait. I have been in situations before and it has never failed me
or failed to show up.


yet you don't report these crimes

The police HAVE failed to show up.

really? but probably a threat by a bear is more a wildlife situation



We sometimes get them in towns. We also sometimes get mountain
lions, coyotes,

nice puppy dogs, we get wild dogs as well

javelinas,

did the nasty piggy thing eat your veggies, my .222 took out the wild
pigs on my place

bobcats, etc..

we have feral cats bigger than that :)


anyhow isn't shooting wildlife in town considered illegal?

I don't live in town.
you're lucky you don't live in Aus because apart from all the snakes spiders
dingoes etc we have these http://australianmuseum.net.au/Drop-Bear and I
live in an area with lots of gums
 
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snip

Most of the time here it is a waste of time. They have other
things to do and active crimes going on.

Probably is but it may help and does help the cops target crime.

They are already targetting crime. They often don't wish to get
interrupted at that unless the crime you are reporting is of
higher importance. It the incident is over, no one got hurt, the
perps are gone...that isn't very high priority.

so crime prevention isn't important in the Us


If I
was so scared I produced a gun I'd be telling the authority for
the simple reason it may help the community

You have not been in that position and you don't know the
conditions in the US. Let me ask you this about OZ. Assume you
are carrying a firearm for self defense. A couple guys try to
mug you. You scare them off with the gun. Are you going to call
the police? And face questions about why you are carrying a gun
when it is obvious you aren't hunting, you are in a strange town
and carrying a gun in OZ for the purpose of self defense is
illegal. You call the police to report a crime that most likely
be put in the wastebasket....face all those questions....possibly
spend some time in a cell yourself while the police sort things
out and there will be no followup? You will call the police? I
don't think so.

but carrying a gun in the US for self defense isn't illegal so
your argument is null and void



Actually, no, it isn't. In some localities it IS illegal to carry
that gun concealed without a permit and open carry is not allowed.
In some localities, local police simple frown on those who carry
and will hassle them. The scenario I gave you is as close to that
as you twits in OZ can get. I see you don't have the balls to
answer it. That rather makes any further communication with you
moot.

I answered it in term of Aus



But I don't live in OZ and you are arguing US gun politics.

OK IF I was illegally carrying a hand gun and used it to shoot someone
or pulled it out if threatened I wouldn't report it to the police.
however if I was at home and felt so threatened I got my rifle than I
certainly would report it to the police

Most incidents don't occur at home.

Let me tell you a little story. I used to live a small community about 8
to 10 miles out in the county. I got about 5 or 6 calls one night from
some stranger for someone who didn't live there. It was a wrong number
call, I assume. Anyway, after the fourth or fifth call, the person was
adamant that he had the right number and if I didn't put the guy on the
phone he was going to come out and shoot my ass. I told him to screw off
and hung up. He called back, gave me his name and stated he was a deputy
sheriff He was going to come and get me if I didn't put this dude on the
phone. I told him again there we not such person at my number. He got
abusive and I hung up on him. He called back and threatened me again.
So I hung up again and called the sheriff's department. Told them what
was going on and they said that they were too busy to come out. They
asked me if I thought my life was in danger. I said, I didn't know, how
good a shot was this asshole? They simply repeated that they were too
busy to come out. I told them to call their deputy on the radio and tell
him that if he came out, his friends could come and bury him. Incident
ended. No followups whatsoever from the sheriff's department and you
want to know why I wouldn't call the cops if I ended an incident without
a shot being fired?
very strange
 
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.
snip


Isn't the 2nd amendment all about the militia ;-)

Get back under your rock you stupid troll

it is isn't it :)

Get back under your rock, you stupid AND ignorant
troll.

must suck for an aussie to point out to you what your
constitution
states

However, he is wrong. There is no requirement for
militia membership
for the right to keep and bear arms. Yes, the Second
Amendment addresses the state militias (the national
militia is addressed in ArtI(8)(16)) but what it is is
a statement that gives *a* reason for
the protection of that right.

I agree and understand that the courts have taken a very
liberal view
of what a militia is

Actually, the militia is defined in federal and state
statutes. Here is
the federal definition of its militia. It is in 10 USC
311:

CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-MISC1-
Sec.
311. Militia: composition and classes.
312. Militia duty: exemptions.

-CITE-
10 USC Sec. 311
01/03/2012 (112-90)

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 10 - ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A - General Military Law
PART I - ORGANIZATION AND GENERAL MILITARY POWERS
CHAPTER 13 - THE MILITIA

-HEAD-
Sec. 311. Militia: composition and classes

-STATUTE-
(a) The militia of the United States consists of all
able-bodied
males at least 17 years of age and, except as provided
in section 313 of title 32, under 45 years of age who
are, or who have made
a
declaration of intention to become, citizens of the
United States and of female citizens of the United
States who are members of
the
National Guard.
(b) The classes of the militia are -
(1) the organized militia, which consists of the
National
Guard
and the Naval Militia; and
(2) the unorganized militia, which consists of the
members of
the militia who are not members of the National
Guard or the Naval Militia.

-SOURCE-
(Aug. 10, 1956, ch. 1041, 70A Stat. 14; Pub. L.
85-861, Sec.
1(7),
Sept. 2, 1958, 72 Stat. 1439; Pub. L. 103-160, div. A,
title V, Sec. 524(a), Nov. 30, 1993, 107 Stat. 1656.)

Now, the different states may have different definitions
of their state
militias but, in general, they will agree with the
federal statute.



Additionally, our Supreme Court has said that militia
membership is NOT
required and has nothing to do with the right to keep and
bear arms.

as I said they have taken a very liberal view

A statute is NOT written by the courts, stupid

but it certainly is interpreted by the Courts.


Feel free to cite the cases where it was
Take as many screens as you need

The abortion cases, religion in schools

I do not believe that either of those have anything to do with
militias and what you claim is the "liberal view" they have for
what the militia is.

Care to try again without attempting to change the subject?

They have to do with the Supreme Court interpreting legislation
and i should add the death penalty laws. These have been legal
or not dependent on the supreme courts interpretatation

Only if there is a case challenging them on constitutional
grounds. The courts do not review legislation or interpret it
unless there appears to be a problem that is coming up through
the court system.

They do interpret it because opinions on the same bit of
legislation change i.e. death penalty and Wade v?



What bit of legislation was interpreted in Roe v Wade? Please be
specific and show that interpretation of that legislation was the
deciding factor in the decision. Take all the screens you need.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade redefined the status of
abortion in the US WITHOUT legislative changes



What's your point? You were declaring that the courts rewrote
legislation.

They interpret legislation something you apparently agreed with me a
week ago about



Yep but it isn't a blanket interpretation. They interpret law as to its
constitutionality WHEN the situation arises to do so.
and to their interpretation

> And only then.
 
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snip

Dealing with a 5 stupid year old is
easier Which current gun licensing laws
in
Australia
Be SPECIFIC, instead of trying to
weasel with vague
generalizations.

that is specific as one can get

I'll accept that as an admission you don't
know

as a gun owner I do and those are the laws

fyi

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforc
e/ su bord le g+
512+
2006+FIRST+0+N

LOL
You need a permission to own a paint-ball
gun You need a permit to stage paint-ball
games
Talk about a nanny state.
Ironic that since gun control was clamped
down post Port Arthur, things have gotten
worse.

have they?

Yes they have
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today
newspaper discovered
in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996
laws banning most
guns
and making it a crime to use a gun
defensively,
armed robberies rose by 51%,
unarmed robberies by 37%,
assaults by 24%
and kidnappings by 43%.
While murders fell by 3%,
manslaughter rose by 16%."
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't reduce
crime,"
USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley,
"Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur,"
The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).

I'll stop there because that statement is BS

Prove it, false weasel-boi
But remember
If you get punished for keeping a loaded gun
for self defense,
you
have
effectively made it illegal to use a gun
defensively,
by making it IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you already have a
loaded gun at hand.
In which case the government can come after
you for using that
gun
defensively.


it is not illegal to use a gun defensively in
Australia, most guns in Aus were not banned post
1996

While that is true, it is illegal in Oz to purchase
or to carry one
for
the stated purpose of self defense.

correct in all but very limited cases

With a few million citizens, "all but very limited"
doesn't help much.

but not really needed in Aus

Ahhhh, no one is ever murdered or a victim of violent
crime
in OZ? Methinks you are full of shit.

and the consequences of "carry for
protection" laws in the US can be seen by the mess
they are in.

What mess is that?

Interestingly it is very hard to find info on
defensive gun use in the US, one figure put around is
2.5 million per year but the crimes that led to guns
being drawn
don't
seem to be reported to the authorities

You can look at Gary Kleck's study.....that is where
the .25 million number
comes from.
You can look at the NCVS (National Crime Victimization
Study) it comes up with 80,000 to 108,000 per year and
never asks about DGUs. You can also look at the
following surveys:

Field 1976 3,052,717
Burdua 1977 1,414,544
DM1a 1978 2,141,512
DM1b 1978 1,098,409
Hart 1981 1,797,461
Ohio 1982 771,043
Mauser 1990 1,487,342
Gallup 1991 777,153
Gallup 1993 1,621,682
LA Times 1994 3,609,682
Tarrance 1994 764,036

so it isn't really that big a safeguard



Oh, I don't know. I would much rather be part of those
in the surveys above than one of the 10-12,000 who die
from
some
street scab with a gun.

Sorry and should add that if these figures are
correct than surely police data would back them up



When even as you suggested, most of these involve no shots
fired or the police? How would the police generate data if
they are not involved?

People are so threatened they draw a gun but don't report it
thus letting crims run free. bizarre argument

Silly dedummy.
Presumes that making a police report automatically results in
an arrest.

strawman arguement. If you report the crime there is a better
chance of an arrest


In some areas that would mean the chances would go from less
than 1% to just over 1%.

a great benefit. I'm more and more believing that DGU figures by
survey are complete and utter BS

You may feel free to believe what you want. As am I. I find my
gun to be of a great benefit and, guess what? It is always there,
it is always ready, I don't need to dial 911 and I don't have to
wait. I have been in situations before and it has never failed me
or failed to show up.


yet you don't report these crimes

The police HAVE failed to show up.

really? but probably a threat by a bear is more a wildlife situation



We sometimes get them in towns. We also sometimes get mountain
lions, coyotes,

nice puppy dogs, we get wild dogs as well

javelinas,

did the nasty piggy thing eat your veggies, my .222 took out the wild
pigs on my place

bobcats, etc..

we have feral cats bigger than that :)


anyhow isn't shooting wildlife in town considered illegal?

I don't live in town.

you're lucky you don't live in Aus because apart from all the snakes
spiders dingoes etc we have these http://australianmuseum.net.au/Drop-Bear
and I live in an area with lots of gums
Right...you're afraid of an imaginary animal...

Well, that does fit in with the rest of your paranoia and phobias.
 
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snip

Dealing with a 5 stupid year old is
easier Which current gun licensing laws
in
Australia
Be SPECIFIC, instead of trying to
weasel with vague
generalizations.

that is specific as one can get

I'll accept that as an admission you
don't
know

as a gun owner I do and those are the laws

fyi

http://www.legislation.nsw.gov.au/fullhtml/inforc
e/ su bord le g+
512+
2006+FIRST+0+N

LOL
You need a permission to own a
paint-ball
gun You need a permit to stage
paint-ball
games
Talk about a nanny state.
Ironic that since gun control was clamped
down post Port Arthur, things have gotten
worse.

have they?

Yes they have
http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm
* Australia: Readers of the USA Today
newspaper discovered
in 2002 that, "Since Australia's 1996
laws banning most
guns
and making it a crime to use a gun
defensively,
armed robberies rose by 51%,
unarmed robberies by 37%,
assaults by 24%
and kidnappings by 43%.
While murders fell by 3%,
manslaughter rose by 16%."
Dr. John R. Lott, Jr., "Gun laws don't
reduce crime,"
USA Today (May 9, 2002).
See also Rhett Watson and Matthew Bayley,
"Gun crime up 40pc since Port Arthur,"
The Daily Telegraph (April 28, 2002).

I'll stop there because that statement is BS

Prove it, false weasel-boi
But remember
If you get punished for keeping a loaded gun
for self defense,
you
have
effectively made it illegal to use a gun
defensively,
by making it IMPOSSIBLE UNLESS you already have
a loaded gun at hand.
In which case the government can come after
you for using that
gun
defensively.


it is not illegal to use a gun defensively in
Australia, most guns in Aus were not banned post
1996

While that is true, it is illegal in Oz to
purchase or to carry one
for
the stated purpose of self defense.

correct in all but very limited cases

With a few million citizens, "all but very limited"
doesn't help much.

but not really needed in Aus

Ahhhh, no one is ever murdered or a victim of violent
crime
in OZ? Methinks you are full of shit.

and the consequences of "carry for
protection" laws in the US can be seen by the mess
they are in.

What mess is that?

Interestingly it is very hard to find info on
defensive gun use in the US, one figure put around
is 2.5 million per year but the crimes that led to
guns being drawn
don't
seem to be reported to the authorities

You can look at Gary Kleck's study.....that is where
the .25 million number
comes from.
You can look at the NCVS (National Crime
Victimization Study) it comes up with 80,000 to
108,000 per year and never asks about DGUs. You can
also look at the following surveys:

Field 1976 3,052,717
Burdua 1977 1,414,544
DM1a 1978 2,141,512
DM1b 1978 1,098,409
Hart 1981 1,797,461
Ohio 1982 771,043
Mauser 1990 1,487,342
Gallup 1991 777,153
Gallup 1993 1,621,682
LA Times 1994 3,609,682
Tarrance 1994 764,036

so it isn't really that big a safeguard



Oh, I don't know. I would much rather be part of those
in the surveys above than one of the 10-12,000 who die
from
some
street scab with a gun.

Sorry and should add that if these figures are
correct than surely police data would back them up



When even as you suggested, most of these involve no
shots fired or the police? How would the police generate
data if they are not involved?

People are so threatened they draw a gun but don't report
it thus letting crims run free. bizarre argument

Silly dedummy.
Presumes that making a police report automatically results
in an arrest.

strawman arguement. If you report the crime there is a
better chance of an arrest


In some areas that would mean the chances would go from less
than 1% to just over 1%.

a great benefit. I'm more and more believing that DGU figures
by survey are complete and utter BS

You may feel free to believe what you want. As am I. I find my
gun to be of a great benefit and, guess what? It is always
there, it is always ready, I don't need to dial 911 and I don't
have to wait. I have been in situations before and it has never
failed me or failed to show up.


yet you don't report these crimes

The police HAVE failed to show up.

really? but probably a threat by a bear is more a wildlife
situation



We sometimes get them in towns. We also sometimes get mountain
lions, coyotes,

nice puppy dogs, we get wild dogs as well

javelinas,

did the nasty piggy thing eat your veggies, my .222 took out the
wild pigs on my place

bobcats, etc..

we have feral cats bigger than that :)


anyhow isn't shooting wildlife in town considered illegal?

I don't live in town.

you're lucky you don't live in Aus because apart from all the snakes
spiders dingoes etc we have these
http://australianmuseum.net.au/Drop-Bear and I live in an area with
lots of gums
Sounds like it. It seems you are trying to gum me to boredom. ;)

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 
"dechucka" <dechucka1@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:5vOdnSR6Hb16YyvSnZ2dnUVZ_jednZ2d@westnet.com.au:

"RD Sandman" <rdsandman[spamremove]@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XnsA05798F61E0CFhopewell@216.196.121.131...
"dechucka" <dechucka1@hotmail.com> wrote in
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"RD Sandman" <rdsandman[spamremove]@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XnsA0576D794A2F8hopewell@216.196.121.131...
"dechucka" <dechucka1@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:GtmdnaLAgY9E4CjSnZ2dnUVZ_sudnZ2d@westnet.com.au:


"RD Sandman" <rdsandman[spamremove]@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:XnsA0556C92A5258hopewell@216.196.121.131...
"dechucka" <dechucka1@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:ssmdnaGDGs4EYS_SnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@westnet.com.au:

snip

Most of the time here it is a waste of time. They have other
things to do and active crimes going on.

Probably is but it may help and does help the cops target
crime.

They are already targetting crime. They often don't wish to
get interrupted at that unless the crime you are reporting is
of higher importance. It the incident is over, no one got
hurt, the perps are gone...that isn't very high priority.

so crime prevention isn't important in the Us


If I
was so scared I produced a gun I'd be telling the authority
for the simple reason it may help the community

You have not been in that position and you don't know the
conditions in the US. Let me ask you this about OZ. Assume
you are carrying a firearm for self defense. A couple guys try
to mug you. You scare them off with the gun. Are you going to
call the police? And face questions about why you are carrying
a gun when it is obvious you aren't hunting, you are in a
strange town and carrying a gun in OZ for the purpose of self
defense is illegal. You call the police to report a crime that
most likely be put in the wastebasket....face all those
questions....possibly spend some time in a cell yourself while
the police sort things out and there will be no followup? You
will call the police? I don't think so.

but carrying a gun in the US for self defense isn't illegal so
your argument is null and void



Actually, no, it isn't. In some localities it IS illegal to
carry that gun concealed without a permit and open carry is not
allowed. In some localities, local police simple frown on those
who carry and will hassle them. The scenario I gave you is as
close to that as you twits in OZ can get. I see you don't have
the balls to answer it. That rather makes any further
communication with you moot.

I answered it in term of Aus



But I don't live in OZ and you are arguing US gun politics.

OK IF I was illegally carrying a hand gun and used it to shoot
someone or pulled it out if threatened I wouldn't report it to the
police. however if I was at home and felt so threatened I got my
rifle than I certainly would report it to the police

Most incidents don't occur at home.

Let me tell you a little story. I used to live a small community
about 8 to 10 miles out in the county. I got about 5 or 6 calls one
night from some stranger for someone who didn't live there. It was a
wrong number call, I assume. Anyway, after the fourth or fifth call,
the person was adamant that he had the right number and if I didn't
put the guy on the phone he was going to come out and shoot my ass.
I told him to screw off and hung up. He called back, gave me his
name and stated he was a deputy sheriff He was going to come and get
me if I didn't put this dude on the phone. I told him again there we
not such person at my number. He got abusive and I hung up on him.
He called back and threatened me again. So I hung up again and called
the sheriff's department. Told them what was going on and they said
that they were too busy to come out. They asked me if I thought my
life was in danger. I said, I didn't know, how good a shot was this
asshole? They simply repeated that they were too busy to come out.
I told them to call their deputy on the radio and tell him that if he
came out, his friends could come and bury him. Incident ended. No
followups whatsoever from the sheriff's department and you want to
know why I wouldn't call the cops if I ended an incident without a
shot being fired?

very strange
But the lack of reaction was rather typical in many cases.

--

If you are trying find a laundry detergent that removes bloodstains
from clothing......perhaps, the problem is not your detergent...
You need to find a new circle of friends!!!


Sleep well, tonight.....

RD (The Sandman)
 

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