Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[Only Just]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news6xsj.587$fX7.417@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:
The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and check my calculations

PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!

Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.

For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)

Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!

0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)

For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59

Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!

1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating

2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)

3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.

For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)

4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)

5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.

Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:

(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall

6. Choose the correct water heater:

Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.

Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water
heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.

If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair
FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).

Donna

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption as
stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one that
suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.
Justy.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote:

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.

Hi Only Just,

I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going
by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have.

The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that these
FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose
numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=16637&p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER

Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of Cortland,
New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program
administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for
conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis
mine).

If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units as
their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers.

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:34:49 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:

bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other
differences are minor,

Hi Hallerb,

I agree the whole point is to buy a "large enough heater"; the only thing
I'm saying about that is "large enough" has almost nothing directly to do
with tank size. Certainly it has nothing to do with warranty.

My personal experience after spending frustrating hours on the
hot-water-heater specialists lines at Home Depot (877-467-0542), Lowes
(877-465-6937), and Sears (800-877-6420) is that these chains try very hard
to force me to buy by tank size and warranty. Extremely hard. That tells me
a lot.

You and I know very well that most water heaters are made by about 4
different companies and they are largely similar (given any class of EF and
FHR ratings).

Even knowing that, I can't tell you how many times I told the box stores I
didn't care one bit about the tank size nor the warranty ... only to have
them go right back to comparing all their heaters by tank size and
warranty, trying to sell me on the little widget that stirs up the sediment
at the bottom of the tank or the "lifetime" warranty that's really a 1-year
labor warranty and a one-shot on lifetime.

Even after I told them comparing water heaters by tank size (instead of
performance) and meaningless warranties (they're all one-year labor) was
like comparing all automobiles by engine size (instead of performance) and
the meaningless color of paint, they *still* insisted on describing their
home water heaters by tank size and warranty! That says a lot in and of
itself!

I was shocked Lowe's so-called hot water heater specialists didn't even
have the FHR for their offering (I had to call the store and have a guy
read it off the stickers!).

When someone who is selling you something is trying so very hard to make
you look elsewhere from the actual facts, that tells us a lot. Basically,
once you have sized by FHR and priced by total costs (taking into account
EF and your local cost/therm) ... the rest is irrelevant!

Thanks for helping enlighten me and put meat into this thread!
Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:37 -0800 (PST), trader4@optonline.net wrote:

the tests are done per EPA rules and specs by an independent
testing lab.

I agree. Intertek Testing Services is supposedly independent. If anyone has
information otherwise, please post.

In other words, over analyzing this whole thing is likely a waste of
time. Even the above payback analysis is flawed, because it ignores
the time value of money.

Very good point.

Here are the original calculations I posted for inspection:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)
e. Overall savings = (13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190

How would we change these to take into account the time value of money?
As always, I'll hazard my math to see if it stands up to scrutiny.

Using the compound interest calculator here ...
http://www.moneychimp.com/calculator/compound_interest_calculator.htm
that $135 at 5% compounded monthly over the 5.4 years payback period
actually costs $176.75 at the 65-month point.

You're right. That's a big difference! (I don't use credit cards so I won't
factor in the additional, but huge, credit-card costs if paid on
installment!)

Conversly, the annual savings over that same 65-month period is also
increased, from $25/year to $26.28 per year using the same 5% interest rate
compounded monthly.

This more accurate payback-period calculation then becomes $177 / $26 * 365
/ 30 = 83 months (6.9 years).

The overall savings now shrinks a whopping 16% from $190 when not taking
into account the time value of money, to (13 years - 6.9 years) * $26/year
= $159

Thanks for testing the math. Please let me know what you think of the new,
more realistic calculations which take into account the time value of
money.

Donna
PS Can someone in the field write a calculator to do all this math for us?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:34:00 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:

the warranty on high output tanks is 7 years. could of got a 12
year tank but I prefered more hot water over longer warranty which is
generally pro rated anyway and replacement usually based on list price
rather than sale price.

Just to be clear, my research indicates ALL warranties (at least all those
from Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes) are really only 1 year labor.

I don't know about you, but, it's not likely I'll be disconnecting my water
heater and bringing it to the manufacturer after that one year is up.

May I ask a "real" question?

Given installation is about the same price as the home water heater itself,
what do you get for that vaunted 12 year warranty after the first year?

Sure, they'll replace it for free ... but it costs as much to replace as it
did to buy so ... tell me please (I'm not being fascesious) ...

WHAT does the warranty *really* buy you after the first year is up?

Donna

 

[Bob Urz]

ian field wrote:

A little OT as I'm not actually trying to repair this set, rather draw on
the experience of others who've had experience with similar Sharp sets to
identify the SST 37VF010 chip.

The chip had a paper label stuck on it suggesting factory
programming/firmware etc, but it looks suspiciously like a regular flash
eprom, a google turned up a number of potential suppliers but no definitive
description of what it is and no data sheets - can anyone furnish any info?

TIA.


http://www.ic2ic.com/search.jsp?sSearchWord=37VF010-90-3C-NH

http://dealdatabase.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26531.html

bob

 

[Meat Plow]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:09:01 +0000, James Sweet wrote:

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:SOvsj.404$Mh2.256@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?

Donna

Jeez.

I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to
install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one.

Most plumber wont even park in your driveway for less than 80 bucks.

 

Every day/night, all over America, there are people going to the stores
to buy a new water heater to replace their old one.Most of those people
don't check with city govt about getting a permit.Most of those people
go ahead and install the water heater themselves.It is similar to buying
and installing a new washing machine, refrigerator, stove, window unit
airconditioner etc.There is no way I ever would pay for a permit to
install any home appliances I buy.If you are scared to install the water
heater yourself, buy a book on Plumbing and read up.
cuhulin

 

[James Sweet]

"Meat Plow" <meat@petitmorte.net> wrote in message
news:1krui6.70d.19.2@news.alt.net...

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:09:01 +0000, James Sweet wrote:


"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in
message news:SOvsj.404$Mh2.256@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and
installation?

Donna

Jeez.

I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks
to
install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one.

Most plumber wont even park in your driveway for less than 80 bucks.

That's one reason I've never called a plumber. I know most of them aren't
getting rich, but still. I've been doing everything myself for so long that
I forget sometimes just how much it saves.

 

[James Sweet]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message newsfFsj.8363$0o7.5691@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:34:00 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
the warranty on high output tanks is 7 years. could of got a 12
year tank but I prefered more hot water over longer warranty which is
generally pro rated anyway and replacement usually based on list price
rather than sale price.

Just to be clear, my research indicates ALL warranties (at least all those
from Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes) are really only 1 year labor.

I don't know about you, but, it's not likely I'll be disconnecting my
water
heater and bringing it to the manufacturer after that one year is up.

May I ask a "real" question?

Given installation is about the same price as the home water heater
itself,
what do you get for that vaunted 12 year warranty after the first year?

Sure, they'll replace it for free ... but it costs as much to replace as
it
did to buy so ... tell me please (I'm not being fascesious) ...

WHAT does the warranty *really* buy you after the first year is up?

Donna

Well if I understand this right, when you buy the heater you pay for the
heater, plus you pay for the installation. For a warranty replacement you
pay for the installation, does that not save you the cost of the heater?

My line of thought is that a unit with a longer warranty is likely built
better, with better quality components, and thus likely to last longer.
Whether this is universally true I can't say, however last time I looked at
them, the 12 year warranty heaters did have a nicer fit & finish than the 6
year models, and the price difference was very small. I'll replace it myself
if it ever fails, and I'm sure it will outlast the warranty with the soft
water we have here, but if it's a higher quality unit I'm willing to pay for
that.

 

[ian field]

"Bob Urz" <sound@inetnebr.com> wrote in message
news:1202921123_2297@isp.n...

ian field wrote:
A little OT as I'm not actually trying to repair this set, rather draw on
the experience of others who've had experience with similar Sharp sets to
identify the SST 37VF010 chip.

The chip had a paper label stuck on it suggesting factory
programming/firmware etc, but it looks suspiciously like a regular flash
eprom, a google turned up a number of potential suppliers but no
definitive description of what it is and no data sheets - can anyone
furnish any info?

TIA.
http://www.ic2ic.com/search.jsp?sSearchWord=37VF010-90-3C-NH

http://dealdatabase.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-26531.html

bob

ic2ic.com usually doesn't provide a link to a data sheet - this seems to be
a "usual case".

 

[Bob Shuman]

Tank size is very important and cannot be completely disregarded since it
provides the reserve capacity. It is this the tank's storage capacity, in
conjunction with the burner size and the EF factor that determines the FHR
rating, which determines how much "hot" water you will get before it is
considered simply "warm" water. The storage capacity is also very important
in regards to determining the physical dimensions of the tank. (I has to
fit in the space allowed and the height and spacing of the exhaust flue,
water inlet, water outlet and gas inlet will be dependent on the tank's
size.)

I already posted my thoughts on warranty as well in a previous reply. The
bottom line here is you certainly know more than enough to make an informed
choice.

Bob



"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:yCDsj.1050$fX7.101@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 05:34:49 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:
bottom line provided you buy a large enough heater the other
differences are minor,

Hi Hallerb,

I agree the whole point is to buy a "large enough heater"; the only thing
I'm saying about that is "large enough" has almost nothing directly to do
with tank size. Certainly it has nothing to do with warranty.
Donna

 

[Bob Shuman]

If you do self installation, like most of the audience on your target
newsgroups, then the warranty means a big deal. If you pay someone to
install, then it may not be as important, especially if the design,
materials, and construction quality is identical.

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message newsfFsj.8363$0o7.5691@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...

Just to be clear, my research indicates ALL warranties (at least all those
from Sears, Home Depot, and Lowes) are really only 1 year labor.

I don't know about you, but, it's not likely I'll be disconnecting my
water
heater and bringing it to the manufacturer after that one year is up.

May I ask a "real" question?

Given installation is about the same price as the home water heater
itself,
what do you get for that vaunted 12 year warranty after the first year?

Sure, they'll replace it for free ... but it costs as much to replace as
it
did to buy so ... tell me please (I'm not being fascesious) ...

WHAT does the warranty *really* buy you after the first year is up?

Donna

 

[Only Just]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:isDsj.931$fX7.433@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 22:14:39 +1100, Only Just wrote:
This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.

Hi Only Just,

I *think* you *can* trust these numbers (FHR & ER) ... but I'm just going
by the written facts. You have the experience I don't have.

The facts are that there are *independent* labs paid to *verify* that
these
FHR and ER numbers are accurate, for example, OSHA recognizes ITSNA whose
numbers I quoted throughout the latter half of this thread.

http://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_id=16637&p_table=FEDERAL_REGISTER

Gama says, as of December 12, 2007, "Intertek Testing Services of
Cortland,
New York (http://www.intertek.com/) has been retained as the program
administrator and *independent* testing laboratory responsible for
conducting efficiency *verification* tests on water heaters" (emphasis
mine).

If Intertek is truly "independent", and if they do randomly select units
as
their product literature says, then I think you *can* trust these numbers.

Donna

The reason I brought up about the tests is that I have been informed that
the manufactures of refrigerators here in Aus have been using "Energy Star"
ratings for quite a while, The way they now measure these results is also
based on "Peak" start-up current so now the manufactures stagger the start
of all the motors in a refrig, eg, compressor starts then after a set period
the inner fan will start then the outside fan will start thus reducing that
start-up peak so it "Reduces" the energy rating so making it a more
desirable unit for the "Greenies" and the power saving conscious people but
only hiding the true power consumed, Also there has been numerous letters
written into the newspaper tech here about people not getting the same fuel
economy in their new vehicle that they bought and the result that they were
replied to was that they are only figures supplied by the manufacturer that
some test results came up with so they can compare different vehicles as set
by an industry standard. Remember that these tests are designed by the
industry and no matter who carries out the same tests providing that they
are using the same standards and criteria they will also receive the same
results to match.
Justy.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"ian field" <dai.ode@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:OnEsj.17002$xm6.10273@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

A little OT as I'm not actually trying to repair this set, rather draw on
the experience of others who've had experience with similar Sharp sets to
identify the SST 37VF010 chip.

The chip had a paper label stuck on it suggesting factory
programming/firmware etc, but it looks suspiciously like a regular flash
eprom, a google turned up a number of potential suppliers but no
definitive description of what it is and no data sheets - can anyone
furnish any info?

TIA.

Ian. Did you see that TeleMag has been relaunched ?

Arfa

 

[Lou]

"James Sweet" <jamessweet@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:xAxsj.159$sh.74@trnddc07...

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in
message news:SOvsj.404$Mh2.256@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...
On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and
installation?

Donna

Jeez.

I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks
to
install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

So, how are you counting your time? The work itself may take an hour or so,
but the plumber also has to drive to and from the installation site, and
that takes time. Sometimes the plumber will also have to drive to the store
or warehouse and pick up the heater.

And let's not forget that in order to drive, s/he needs a vehicle, one that
is probably more or less dedicated to the business, and that has to be paid
for also.

According to http://www.careeroverview.com/plumbing-careers.html the median
wage for a plumber in 2002 was $19.30/hour. Assuming a 40 hour work week
for 50 weeks a year, that comes to $38,600/year. Doesn't sound like a way
to get rich quick.

A question on the cost of the permit - how much would it cost if you went to
the town office and got the permit yourself?

 

[Lou]

"Only Just" <ifixit2@hotmail(dot)com> wrote in message
news:47b2d11e$1@dnews.tpgi.com.au...
((snip))

This is all very good but can you trust the figures given by the
manufacturers as these are often derived by engineer calculations and
marketing guru's and are manipulated to suit their agenda.
an example of this is how many people ever get the rated fuel consumption
as
stated by any vehicle manufacturers, also appliance manufactures have
devised ways of confusing the figures to get a better rating that it
actually uses. The best way to purchase the water system is to get one
that
suits your requirements as in size and water capacity.

Vehicle mileage estimates, or for that matter any estimates, are based on a
load of assumptions. Your actual experience will vary according to how
closely your situation matches the assumptions. By the way, vehicle
manufacturers follow a standard test procedure specified by federal law, and
the EPA confirms 10%-15% of the results by conducting its own tests.

I agree that the rated fuel consumption for motor vehicles is off - I
haven't averaged that low for at least 15 years. For instance, my car is
rated 20/29 for city/highway - last week I averaged 33.2 mpg in about 440
miles of mixed driving according to the car's odometer and the reading on
the pump when I gassed up on Friday evening. According the average mileage
display on the dashboard of the car, I got 34.1 mpg, and I suppose the
difference could be due to the attendant (no self service gas in NJ) filling
the tank right up to the gas cap and/or inaccuracies in the pump or
odometer, or even simply to the fact that I fill up the tank at the end of
the day (when the car and the gas is at its warmest) but do about half my
driving in the morning (when the gas is the coolest). Which means simply
that a full measured gallon on a Friday afternoon is probably less than a
gallon on Monday morning simply due to the expansion and contraction that go
with changes in temperature.

 

[Lou]

"Bob Shuman" <reshuman@removethis.alcatel-lucent.com> wrote in message
news:47b301a4$1@news.alcatel.com...

A quick comment on warranty period and the AVERAGE home gas water heater
life.

The AVERAGE is exactly that: an average or mean calculation of the life
for
all units shipped/sold. The real life span is affected by many things,
including the water quality/hardness (it consumes the anode quicker), the
temperature setting you select (hotter means it builds more internal
pressure and you get a shorter life) and the amount of hot water that you
use (more cycles of the burner mean a shorter life).

I am on my third gas HWH and purchased the house new in 1991. The first
heater lasted about 7 years and the second 6.5 years. I had a 7-year
warranty on the tank from Sears and they gave me a replacement free of
charge which has been in now for over 5 years. I believe that I will get
a
longer life this time around since two of my children are no longer living
at home.

The bottom line here is that the warranty period may be important
depending
on your circumstances. It is basically a cheap insurance policy that
covers
only the cost of a replacement heater. For me, that was important since I
do the installation myself, but for someone hiring a plumber, the material
cost could easily be less than the labor and associated miscellaneous
expenses (permits).

I think it matters no matter who does the installation - either way, you
didn't have pay for a new heater.

 

[Lou]

<hallerb@aol.com> wrote in message
news:d8313227-a022-497b-89ef-8cdca898a02e@s37g2000prg.googlegroups.com...

warrantys are sales tools, they rarely help the purchaser much. wheres
your original invoice?

You keep all of that stuff, and not just in case you ever need to invoke the
warranty - you keep it for tax or insurance purposes.

You keep this stuff in a file folder in a drawer - it takes a few second to
put it there when you buy something new. Or in the case of something like a
water heater, you put it in a plastic bag and tape it to the appliance.

 

[Lou]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:9wxsj.5939$xq2.1758@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water
heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to
operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The labels show the estimated annual energy usage AND the estimated annual
cost, based on an average cost of fuel. Take the energy usage and multiply
by your own fuel cost assumptions.

The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in
performance
but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.

For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

I doubt that your calculations are "true" - in the way that you initially
didn't account for the time value of money, I didn't see that you took into
account the changing cost of fuel. What is today a $25.00 annual saving
could be a $50.00, $75.00, $100.00 (make your own assumptions) annual saving
a year or three down the line. Nor did you account for general inflation,
or even the normal tendency for people's income to rise over time - today's
annual payback might mean an hour or two of work a year, but assuming
constant fuel costs, it'll probably be less work time a year or two down the
line.

You can estimate payback periods only by making a cat's cradle of
assumptions.