Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

Dan Rather did tell the truth about one thing, that is why he got kicked
out.Nowadays, he is an editor at www.hd.net
I never read Consumers Reports.
cuhulin

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 07:24:20 GMT, James Sweet wrote:

I pay around $1.15 per therm,
I still remember when it was ... 33 cents.

I pay around $1.33 per therm.
I'm going to do the calculations today.

I just called Sears Kenmore (actually AO SMith State Industries makes all
the Kenmore brands) asking for their highest-efficiency consumer hot water
heater models.
- Sears Kenmore Home Water Heater Department: 1-800-877-6420

Here's the summary from Sears for the 40-gallon 12/1 year water heater:
- $420/$853 #33144 FHR 81 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K,
- 58" tall, 20.5" diameter, 63.5" tall with diverter

Here's the summary from Sears for the 50-gallon 12/1 year water heater:
- $450/$885 #33154 FHR 97 gallons, EF 0.63, BTU 40K,
- 59.5" tall, 22" diameter, 65" tall with diverter

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

I still have to do the calculations to see if the EF makes any real
difference at a cost per therm of $1.33 particularly since the "average"
water heater at HD was 0.58 or 0.59 EF, but I could special order a HD one
with 0.62 EF but I could get from Sears one with an EF of 0.63.

I wonder how much exactly it all matters ... for that ... I need to build
the calculations.

I think I have enough now - certainly more than I ever thought I needed to
know - to make a reasonable not-dumb decision on replacing my home water
heater that started leaking yesterday morning.

Please let me know if you have any calculators on the web which can COMPARE
two home water heaters given the specs we have posted in this thread!

Thanks,
Donna

 

[Logan Shaw]

Rick Blaine wrote:

Both tanks will use the same amount of energy to heat the water you are using
directly. If both tanks have the same efficiency and the same insulation, the
smaller tank will lose less energy to the outside air and thus be slightly less
expensive to operate over the course of a year.

True, but there's one minor complication: the larger tank will
probably have a smaller ratio of surface area to volume[1]. Since
surface area is basically what determines the rate of heat loss[2],
a tank that's double the size will not lose heat at double the rate.

So while the larger tank will lose more heat, the increase in lost
heat is smaller than linear.

On the other hand, having a water heater with a large capacity can
encourage people to take excessively-long showers if they are already
inclined in that direction, and having a water heater with a small
capacity can definitely discourage long showers.

- Logan

[1] As a starting point for visualizing this, imagine a 100-gallon
water heater as simply two 50-gallons stacked on top of each
other. When you stack them, the bottom of the upper one and
the top of the lower one will be up against each other and
thus not losing heat from that surface. So you've eliminated
some surface area. Real water heaters will have different
proportions, but the same basic idea applies. If you model
them as spheres, volume is proportional to the cube of the
radius but surface area is proportional to the square.

[2] ... along with temperature difference, but that's a constant
here, so we can eliminate it from this comparison.

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?

Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be
replaced with every installation though.

 

Look in the classifieds in your newspaper.You will find ads there of
licensed/bonded people who do plumbing work/repair, if you don't want to
install the water heater yourself.Any good handyman can do the job.I
can't figure why the city (or any city) needs to know when a home owner
buys a water heater.
cuhulin

 

[Michael Kennedy]

<ZZactly@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a37f08c6-f37c-4e2d-beb1-e99ef6695d6a@v46g2000hsv.googlegroups.com...

30,000 what, yen ? That's about two dollars isn't it ?

JURB

haha, well if it were yen it would be about 300 dollars. A yen is like a
penny, they don't count by 100's like most places in the world do. They
essentially count in pennies.

Mike

 

[Edwin Pawlowski]

<trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-

The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.

The total is in the $680 range for most options. Start with he basic $300
charge. Double what a local guy may charge. Permits can very , but probably
closer to $25 if you actually get one. I'd not get one. What about that $80
trip charge? Sears will hose you no matter what. Last place I'd go.

 

[Jerry Peters]

cuhulin@webtv.net wrote:

Look in the classifieds in your newspaper.You will find ads there of
licensed/bonded people who do plumbing work/repair, if you don't want to
install the water heater yourself.Any good handyman can do the job.I
can't figure why the city (or any city) needs to know when a home owner
buys a water heater.
cuhulin

So they can tax you by forcing you to get a permit, why else?

Jerry

 

You might be interested in buying a tankless water heater.Look on the
web for,
How do Tankless Water Heaters Work?
cuhulin
.................................................
Permits? What permits? We don't have any pemits.We don't need any
stinkin permits!
The Treasure of the Sierra Madre
.................................................

 

[James Sweet]

<cuhulin@webtv.net> wrote in message
news:14485-47B2165F-844@storefull-3256.bay.webtv.net...

You might be interested in buying a tankless water heater.Look on the
web for,
How do Tankless Water Heaters Work?

The OP already said the cost is prohibitive. Tankless water heaters require
a larger gas line and much larger flue vent than conventional tanks because
the burner is usually around 150K BTU rather than 30-40K BTUof a
conventional tank. I plan to install one in my place because I have a large
flue that originally served a gas furnace but I replaced that with a
condensing furnace that uses a PVC flue, but had I needed to install a new
vent for a tankless heater it would be too complex and expensive to bother.

 

[Lou]

<trader4@optonline.net> wrote in message
news:6fc777ee-3fad-467f-b11c-fa687539f1fc@q77g2000hsh.googlegroups.com...
On Feb 11, 10:53 pm, "Edwin Pawlowski" <e...@snet.net> wrote:

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna....@sbcglobal.net> wrote
in
message



The installation fee includes a bunch of possibly mandatory extras.
- Mandatory Installation Fee $300
- Mandatory Disposal Fee $10
- Mandatory Plumbing Permit $77
- Mandatory Flex Pipe Replacement $46
- Mandatory Sales Tax on the water heater ~8.75%
- Possible Earthquake Straps $68
- Possible pipe retrofit fees ~100
- Possible trip charge of $35 to $80 if any service is refused

Do you get a choice of KY or Vaseline too?

Call al local plumber and save a bundle of money. The flex pipe should be
replaced with every installation though.

What on that list is so excessive or wouldn't incur a similar charge
from a local plumber? They all seem within reason, depending of
course on the area.

It's been better than a couple of decades since I bought a new water heater,
and that one was electric, but...

the installation fee seems high - enough to double the cost of the
appliance.
sales tax on the heater? - I seem to remember that something that becomes
part of real property is sales tax exempt, if you file the proper
certificate, in NJ anyway
earthquake straps?

The one time I had to replace the water heater, I bought it from Sears - the
installed price was better than an independent plumber, the service was fast
(called in the morning, heater was in that afternoon) and the installer was
pleasant and informative. A lot can change in 20+ years, but if/when I
again need a new heater, I'll at least see what they have to say.

Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller
heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved -
take a look at the energy guide label. When I pick a 30 gallon heater and a
50 gallon heater at random and compare the estimated annual operating cost,
the difference is $7.00 a year in favor of the smaller heater. Your actual
operating costs will depend on the cost of fuel in your area and your actual
usage, but while I don't advocate getting a larger heater than you need, the
annual operating cost difference doesn't seem like a reason to get something
smaller than you could use.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:

Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 20:12:51 -0500, Lou wrote:

Also, all the back and forth about the relative cost of operating a smaller
heater compared to a larger one seems to me to be fairly easily resolved -
take a look at the energy guide

It turns out a lot of people were dead wrong on efficiency, including me.
According to the www.gamanet.org web site, operating a 40-gallon hot-water
heater is no more or less efficient than operating a 50-gallon hot-water
heater.

The only thing that matters for efficiency is the Energy Factor (EF) which
takes into account the tank size, insulation, and burner BTU.
Reference site: http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf

So, if a 40 gallon hot-water heater has an EF of, say, 0.63 while a
50-gallon hot-water heater has an equal EF of 0.63, then the costs are
EXACTLY the same to operate the two heaters!

The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and let me know if my new
conclusions that size doesn't matter has any flaws in it as I publically
state that all that matters is the EF (based on my reading ten times of
that document).

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 06:16:38 GMT, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

The math is all spelled out for us in the PDF at:
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Since almost all of us were dead wrong on this one, it would be nice if
someone can read that reference document and check my calculations

PLEASE DOUBLECHECK THESE HOT-WATER-HEATER CALCULATIONS!

Here are the necessary calculations I believe we need to make in order to
compare two gas-fired water heaters. All calculations are courtesy of the
referenced PDF and charts at www.gamanet.org except the energy costs which
are courtesy of PG&E at http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

In reality, these calculations would need to be done for at least a
half-dozen different water heaters (two each from Lowes, Sears, and Home
Depot, for example) in order to properly choose an available water heater
intelligently.

For simplicity, I'll use the values I plugged into the calculations for my
home; yours may differ but the mathematical approach is exactly the same.
0. Calculate minimum legal efficiency (EF)
1. Calculate maximum peak-hour requirements (FHR)
2. Calculate total installed price ($/installation)
3. Calculate yearly operating costs ($/year)
4. Calculate payback period (months/installation)

Here are my calculations.
PLEASE CHECK FOR ERRORS OR OMISSIONS AS WE ALL ARE LEARNING FROM THIS!

0. Calculate the minimum energy factor required by federal & local law:
(based on October 1990 Dept. of Energy Test Procedure for Water Heaters as
published in the May 11, 1998 Federal Register.)

For gas-fired residential water heaters, the minimum energy factor is:
Minimum EF for 40-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 40 = 0.58
Minimum EF for 50-gallon water heaters = 0.67 - 0.0019 * 50 = 0.59

Note: Southern California uses different legal minimum numbers than
northern California so be advised to modify the calculation for your area!

1. Determine your peak requirements:
20 gallons per shower x 2 showers in one hour = 40 gallons per hour
20 gallons per bath x 0 baths in one hour = 0 gallons per hour
2 gallons per shave x 0 shaves in that hour = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per personal wash x 0 = 0 additional gallons
4 gallons per shampoo x 0 = 0 additional gallons (do it in the shower)
4 gallons per hand dishwashing x 0 dishes = 0 gallons
14 gallons per dishwasher load x 1 load = 14 additional peak gallons
5 gallons per food preparation x 1 meal = 5 additional gallons
26 gallons per wringer wash x 1 load = 26 additional peak gallons
32 gallons per automatic wash x 0 loads = 0 additional peak gallons
-----
TOTAL PEAK GALLONS = 40 + 14 + 5 + 26 = 85 gallons First Hour Rating

2. Determine price installed (inclusive):
Sears 33154 is $882 ($449 for the heater + $433 for full installation)
HD 183-717 is $747 ($349 for the heater + $398 for full installation)

3. Determine yearly operating costs given your basal energy unit, FHR, EF,
and average-use assumption.

For simplification, I'll only compare two heaters but the calculator we
create needs to cover at least a few at a time. I did this in Excel for
current northern California baseline (Schedule G-1 Residential Service)
energy rates.

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

Note: Irrelevant specs would have been tank size, burner BTUs, gallons to
recovery to 90 degrees in one hour, etc. as the only figures that matter
for the calculations are the EF and the FHR since they take into account
all other design-size specifications such as those you quoted.)

4. Determine payback period:
a. Additional cost of more efficient model = $882 - $747 = $135
b. Annual savings of more efficient model = $313 - $288 = $25 per year
c. Payback period = $135 / $25 * 365 / 30 = 65 months (5.4 years)

5. Determine overall savings:
The two water heaters compared in this simplified calcuation would be
equivalent in overall costs at approximately 5 and a half years.

Considering the average water heater lasts 13 years, total savings for the
more expensive yet more economical heater would be:

(13 years - 5.4 years) * $25/year = $190 savings overall

6. Choose the correct water heater:

Based on the math everyone should perform when selecting the proper water
heater, I would buy the Sears 33154, which will save me almost 200 dollars
over its lifetime over the Home Depot 183-717 assuming current energy
prices and average usage.

Note: In reality, one needs to compare at least a half-dozen water heaters;
here I only compared two for simplicity. I knew none of these calculations
just two days ago, so, PLEASE CHECK MY NUMBERS after reading the reference
document I refer to.

If the numbers hold water, then this should go into the alt.home.repair FAQ
for everyone to benefit from all our efforts to understand how to properly
size & select a home water heater replacement (yes, I know there are
physical size issues also but this tutorial is already too long to go into
those details).

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:20:35 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

Heating less water costs less, even with equally efficient heaters.
Sigh. Absolutely true and totally meaningless within the context of this
discussion.
Hint: Direct energy cost is based on _use_ and efficiency, not _capacity_ and
efficiency.

It turns out Rick is right.

The size of the home water heater (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, etc.) is
nearly meaningless, as is the warranty period.

The only way the tank size plays any role in the selection process for
purely physical reasons. Why? Because both the EF and the FHR already take
into account the size of the holding tank so there is no need to even
bother to look at tank size (other than for purely physical reasons).

Likewise, the warranty is always less than the average lifetime of a home
water heater, which, at 13 years, is vastly greater than the 1-year labor
warrantees all the heaters I looked at (from Sears, Lowes, and Home Depot)
provided. (Note: The 12yr/9yr/6yr/etc. warranty figures often quoted by
Sears/Lowes/HomeDepot are for PARTS! Not labor).

Thanks everyone for enlightening me ... If I didn't know better, I'd buy by
the size of the tank and the warranty but now I know they are meaningless
figures. The manufacturer WANTS you to look there but in reality, the
truthy lies in the FHV, EF, and cost/therm.

I didn't realize you guys knew so much about home water heaters ... but I'm
glad you do. In only two days, I was able to take my knowledge level, with
your help, from absolutely nothing to being able make basic lifetime cost
comparisons given any two home heaters.

Thanks!

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:

It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

Hi James,
You're right.

I guess what I meant was I can "solve for X" without looking at the
sticker. I can call Sears, Home Depot, or Lowes and just ask for FHR & ER
and, from that (and my known cost/therm), I can compare two heaters side by
side:

CHOICE A:
Sears 33154 (marketed as Kenmore but made by AO Smith) FHR=97 EF=0.63
(41,045 btu/0.63)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $288/year

CHOICE B:
Home Depot 183-717 (marketed as GE but made by Rheem) FHR=80 EF=0.58
(41,045 btu/0.58)($1.21106/therm * 1 therm/100,000 btu) x 365 = $313/year

But, you are right. If I were in the store, I could basically double the
annual operating costs shown and I'd be in the ballpark.

Thanks! We learned a lot in this thread, didn't we!

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in performance
but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.

For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

Donna

 

[James Sweet]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:SOvsj.404$Mh2.256@nlpi069.nbdc.sbc.com...

On Tue, 12 Feb 2008 21:02:20 GMT, Edwin Pawlowski wrote:
Permits can very , but probably closer to $25 if you actually get one.

You must get a plumbing permit in my town:
Home Depot charges $77
Lowes charges almost $90
Sears charges $95 for that same permit.

The overall installation fee (includes all sans tax & straps) is:
$400 Home Depot 877-467-0542
$410 Lowes 877-465-6937
$433 Sears 800-877-6420

What would a typical plumber have charged for the permit and installation?

Donna

Jeez.

I'd feel like I was ripping someone off if I charged more than 100 bucks to
install a water heater, but then I'm not licensed or bonded so I don't do
this for random people, but still, last one I did took less than an hour,
it's literally 3 threaded pipes and a flue vent.

Best way to find out what a plumber charges is to call one.

 

[James Sweet]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:9wxsj.5939$xq2.1758@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:
What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to
operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Actually, since my cost per therm is far from the average used for those
stickers, the sticker numbers are innacurate in my situation.

The sticker numbers might work to roughly compare two models in
performance
but they don't work to calculate the true payback period for two models.

For that, the math I've posted today should be sufficient (assuming the
calculations hold water under scrutiny of this esteemed group).

Donna

It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Wed, 13 Feb 2008 08:13:09 GMT, James Sweet wrote:

It's really easy to take the cost shown on the sticker and extrapolate the
actual cost in your area. Cost per year on sticker/cost per therm on sticker
= X/Your cost per therm, solve for X.

Hi James,
In running your calculations, I realized the EF is NOT shown on the energy
sticker! But, it can be derived. Is my match below correct?

Given an EnergyGuide sticker that says:
"This Model Uses 240 therms/year".

I think we can calculate the ER.
Does this calculation look right to you?

240 therms/year * 1 year/41,045,000 btu * 100,000 btu/1 therm = .58

The part of the math that escapes me is why this calculation uses 1,000
times the BTUs per year than the previous calculations. Any idea?

Donna