Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[Rick Blaine]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?

Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:49:53 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?
That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Donna

 

[Rick Blaine]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

What does the Efficiency Factor say about costs for two different sized
tanks with the same efficiency factor?

EF allows you to compare different heaters. It takes into account insulation and
other factors. Details here:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13000

 

[Rick Blaine]

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

What's the easiest way to compare heat leakage between two water heaters?
Look at the yellow energy label on the heaters. The annual cost to operate
printed there can be compared on different models.

Are you sure?

Yes

Isn't the Energy Factor a more pure number than the annual costs?

Yes.

That is, the energy costs depend, of course, on the price of energy and
volume of water assumed while the Energy Factor should be independent of
those two numbers.

So, it seems to me the EF already takes into account the insulation (and
whatever other factors matter).

Doesn't it?

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 19:11:54 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

$608 SG40T12AVH/182-755 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$658 SG50T12AVH/183-717 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 6-yr(drain 2x/year)
$677 SG40T12AVH/182-786 72galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$718 SG50T12AVH/184-076 80galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 9-yr(self cleaning)
$728 SG40T12AVH/182-953 68galFHR 0.59EF ??KBTU 40gal 12-yr(self cleaning)
$783 SG50T12AVH/185-191 83galFHR 0.58EF ??KBTU 50gal 12-yr(self cleaning)

For the record, this reference, pointed to me by someone on this thread, is
FANTASTIC for helping a consumer figure out which gas water heater to buy!

http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vContentEntries/Product+Directories?OpenDocument

The actual document for a gas water heater is
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

I'm reading it now to learn more.
A lot of what people said is right but a lot is wrong.
It's so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

But I'm trying!
Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:10:33 -0700, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
wrote:

A lot of what people said is right but a lot is wrong.
It's so hard to separate the wheat from the chaff.

Nobody mentioned the payback calculation yet.
I'm trying to run the calculations in the invaluable Dec. 2007 document
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLaunch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

Given current PG&E cost per therm in my area
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/GRS.SHTML#GRS
of between $1.21 to $1.44 per therm
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

For those calculations, does an average cost per therm in my area of $1.33
seem reasonable to you?

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

Hi Rick,
I don't wish to argue ... just to understand ... so please bear with me.

I've said a lot that is wrong (e.g., I called the EF an "efficiency"
factor) and at first I was choosing by size and warranty (which is about as
opposite of the true selection process as is possible) ... so I'm learning
from all you guys and trying to truly understand how to properly select a
real water heater out of the real selections and choices truly available
today in my area.

It seems like I'm not the only one confused as some people said to buy a
water heater by CAPACITY (which seems nearly meaningless except for overall
mechanical size reasons) instead of by FHR, for example.

The web site you recommended was better for FHR than those I tried:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=12990

As that web site CLEARLY said the FHR is the most important VOLUME number.
"To properly size a storage water heater ... use the water heater's first
hour rating (FHR). The first hour rating is the amount of hot water in
gallons the heater can supply per hour (starting with a tank full of hot
water). It depends on the tank capacity, source of heat (burner or
element), and the size of the burner or element."

So, I now know that the volume (e.g., 40 gallon or 50 gallon is a nearly
meaningless number when the actual FHR is known).

But, I'm still confused about the EF.

That same web site:
http://www.eere.energy.gov/consumer/your_home/water_heating/index.cfm/mytopic=13000

Says "the energy factor (EF) indicates a water heater's overall energy
efficiency based on the amount of hot water produced per unit of fuel
consumed over a typical day. This includes ... how efficiently the heat
from the energy source is transferred to the water ... the percentage of
heat loss per hour from the stored water compared to the heat content of
the water ... [and] the loss of heat as the water circulates through a
water heater tank, and/or inlet and outlet pipes."

So, if I understand it correctly, all we need is the EF and the FHR and the
actual size (e.g., 40 gallons, 50 gallons, or 60 gallons) is meaningless
from the standpoint of how much hot water it delivers or how much it costs
to operate.

This seems so counterintuitive that no wonder a lot of people are confused,
even me. But then, like countersteering on a bicycle, sometimes you do turn
left to go right.

At the moment, it seems that the actual capacity of the tank is a nearly
meaningless number (except for dimensional reasons) - as is the warranty -
based on that web page (since both the FHR and ER already take into account
the tanks' size).

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

I thought MORE about what you wrote and you're ABSOLUTELY RIGHT!

The insulation was suggested by someone else (not me). I agree with you,
the thickness of the insulation, in and of itself, is as meaningless as the
volume of the tank, in and of itself.

What seems meaningful isn't the warranty.
It's not the volume of the tank.
It's not the thickness of the insulation.
It's not even the total energy costs (since they make assumptions which
might not be true).

What seems meaningful is the ER and the FHR which take into account ALL
those factors (and more).

So my conclusion (open for discussion) is that what matters is:
- Get the desired FHR needed (e.g., 65 to 75 gallons is fine for me
- Get the desired ER (I wish I could find a .62 instead of .59 ERs)
- Get the right PHYSICAL SIZE (e.g., a 40-gallon tank is 50 inches tall)

Some other factors which _might_ be interesting are:
- Your article said try to get an ELECTRONIC flame igniter
- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones
(He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)
- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

 

[James Sweet]

For those calculations, does an average cost per therm in my area of $1.33
seem reasonable to you?

Look at your utility bill, it should say exactly what the cost per therm is,
they may call it CCF. That number sounds a little high, but then it varies
by area and the cost has multiplied by several times in the last 10-15
years. I pay around $1.15 per therm, I still remember when it was closer to
33 cents.

 

[Malcolm Hoar]

In article <6lmvq3du5tc430cmln534kvbi7g2nkbeq7@4ax.com>, dont@bother.com wrote:

Do you care? Consider the case where one heater has poor insulation and a very
efficient burner, and the other has a poor burner and better insulation. Both
have the same EF, both cost the same to operate over a year. Which one do you
buy?

It depends on your usage. EF assumes typical usage patterns,
whatever that is.

If your usage is above typical, go for the better burner.
If your usage is below typical, go for the better insulation.

EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a
fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the
EF calculation.

--
|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Malcolm Hoar "The more I practice, the luckier I get". |
| malch@malch.com Gary Player. |
| http://www.malch.com/ Shpx gur PQN. |
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

[Bob Shuman]

Donna,

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain
for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum in my
gas HWH tank. I am fortunate enough to have a floor drain there in my
basement so this is fairly easy to do.

Also, if you can find a tank with the exact same dimension (Height x Width)
and that has the gas inlet, exhaust flue, cold water inlet, and hot water
outlet all located in exactly the same position/heights (or as near as
possible), then it makes the installation much simpler.

I also agree with the suggestion of installing the fiberglass "blanket"
insulation regardless of which model you choose to make it as efficient as
possible.

Good luck!

Bob

"Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator" <donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote in
message news:8mRrj.6644$5K1.62@newssvr12.news.prodigy.net...

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 22:20:41 -0700, Rick Blaine wrote:

- The Home Depot guy tried to sell me on the maintenance-free ones
(He said they had a fan that stirred up the sediment)
- Some folks recommended "better" valves for cleaning out the sediment

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:

http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/gas.html

We're getting closer!

The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a freeware
payback calculator which we were missing up until now!

http://www.hotwater.com/products/payback.aspx

You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons per day
and then it compares two models, given their cost, to calculate how long
the payback period is for the more expensive one.

The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR and ER
calculations which it assumes because it only allows its models to be
compared.

Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that allows all
brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the FHR and ER ratings
which all water heaters must provide)?

We'd all benefit from your advice,
Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 14:44:50 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

EF is not the holy grail, unless you actually know for a
fact that your usage patterns mirror those assumed in the
EF calculation.

True but ... you can CALCUATE your personal situation (I'm doing it now).

READ THIS document (it's a MUST HAVE for water-heater calculations)!
http://tinyurl.com/38eh4d
(long url)
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAttachmentLau
nch/C2AAFB8D41D003F485256E9000607F66/$FILE/12-07-gas-rwh.pdf

You'll also need your current costs per therm, e.g., read this (for me):
http://www.pge.com/tariffs
Specifically, these prices of approx $1.33/therm for gas-fired residential
water heaters in the local area:
http://www.pge.com/tariffs/pdf/G-1.pdf

Armed with those two documents and the FHR & EF ratings for your
prospective water heaters, you can do all the calculations you need to
apply to your specific situation.

I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there to make
this easier on all of us!

Donna
Note that it might not matter much as all water heaters are basically the
same according to this article (http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html).

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

FHR (65 to 75 gallons in an hour seem appropriate for me)
ER (I'd like to find a 0.62 or better but have NOT found any above .59)
PRICE (I have plenty of money but I don't want to waste it needlessly)
SERVICE (I want to trust that the plumber does the gas job well)
I just wish there were a freeware water-heater calculator out there

Here is the best freeware water heater FHR/ER calculator I can find:

http://www.geappliances.com/smartwater/heaters/waterheaters_form.htm

It's not even close to what we want and need by way of water-heater
calculators, but, it seems to be the best freeware out there to date.

If you can find better, please post so we all benefit!

Presumably it would ask you the basic questions that the one above asks,
but, then it would take into account the FHV and ER and the current cost
per therm. It would then take the price of your water heater into account
to tell you which is the best buy per FHV/hour and the all-important
recover period when comparing two different water heaters.

I'm sure this calculator, which millions of households could benefit from,
exists somewhere ... I just don't know where so I include the freeware
folks who seem to have a knack for finding jewels on the Internet!

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:47:41 -0600, Bob Shuman wrote:

I just attach a short section of garden hose and then open the bottom drain
for a minute or so every few months to keep the sediment to a minimum

We *should* have done that but never did.
This article says almost nobody drains their tanks nowadays:
http://hkentcraig.com/2WHarticle.html
So, I don't feel too badly.

Also, Home Depot GE salespeople on the phone tried really hard to sell me
the patented little fan that stirs up the sediments.

It would be nice to find an article that scientifically looks to see if
those sediment stirrers really worked or not.

Consumer Reports was a total disapointment as they told me to buy based on
warranty - which is a marketeer's dream. I'm surprised at Consumer Reports,
but, the older (and wiser) I get, the more I realize they don't know what
they're doing. Sigh.

Dan Rather, and now Consumer Reports.
Another trusted icon bites the dust!

All I have left is you!

Donna

 

[hallerb@aol.com]

http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/gas.html

AO SMITH they have condensing water heaters with efficencies of mid
90s.

if you call them they can give you the phone number of a local
stocking dealer, and direct vent models use outside air for
combustion, saving more energy.......

I went thru this same research some years ago,

the FHR is largely based on BTU of burner.

I went from a 40 gallon 34,000 BTU tank, to a 50 gallon 75,000 BTU
tank and about doubled the first hour rating.

because of space issues i couldnt go larger.

its served me very well

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Sun, 10 Feb 2008 21:30:43 -0600, HeyBub wrote:

$50 permit? Call city hall and see if a permit is required.

I called this morning and the town said I need a PLUMBING permit because
it's a gas heater. I forgot to ask the price but the installer will handle
that for me (and charge me).

I just hope there isn't the 8.5% sales tax charged on top of the permit
costs!

As Will Rogers said, thank God we don't get as much government as we pay
for!

Donna

 

[Donna Ohl, Grady Voluntee]

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 04:16:34 GMT, Malcolm Hoar wrote:

The energy factor tells you how well much of the gas is
converted into hot water. A low rating on a gas heater
means lots of therms (energy) are going up the flue.

Hi Malcolm,

I did more research. Apparently, all GE water heaters sold by HD are made
by Rheem who also makes a water heater with an EF of 0.62 but it's hard to
find in a HD store. I'm gonna try Sears at 800-877-6420.

$360 ($675 installed) GG40T06TVG/182-785 FHR=68 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs
The nearly meaningless specs are 40-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty.

$420 ($730 installed) GG50T06TVG/184-045 FHR=83 gal EF=0.62 40,000 BTUs
The nearly meaningless specs are 50-gallon capacity & 6-year warranty.

I am trying to figure out the calculation for the payback time given the
difference between an EF of 0.59 and the EF of 0.62.

Do you think it's worth it to pay (how much) more and go to more trouble to
find a residential gas hot water heater with the EF of 0.62 (given my
current cost per therm of $1.33)?

Donna
PS I'm gonna try the math for FHR & ER payback calculations here
http://www.gamanet.org/gama/inforesources.nsf/vAllDocs/Education?OpenDocument

 

[Franklin]

On Mon 11 Feb 2008 15:28:47, Donna Ohl, Grady Volunteer Coordinator
<donna.ohl@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

On Mon, 11 Feb 2008 08:17:59 -0800 (PST), hallerb@aol.com wrote:

http://www.hotwater.com/products/residential/gas.html

We're getting closer!

It sounds like you are setting up something in your posting so that
others are invited to take part.

The nice thing about the site you recommended is it contains a
freeware payback calculator which we were missing up until now!
http://www.hotwater.com/products/payback.aspx

You guessed right the first time ~ it's not really freeware.

You enter in the cost per therm (e.g., $1.33/therm) and the gallons
per day and then it compares two models, given their cost, to
calculate how long the payback period is for the more expensive
one.

The only thing missing from this free payback calculator is the FHR
and ER calculations which it assumes because it only allows its
models to be compared.

Does anyone know of a freely available payback calculator that
allows all brands to be analyzed (i.e., it takes into account the
FHR and ER ratings which all water heaters must provide)?

We'd all benefit from your advice,
Donna

Donna, is there a freeware engineering tool for designing domestic hot
water heaters. Maybe there is one which links into a suppliers a bill
of material parts systems or their inventory system. That would be
useful for all of us.

Can you help us?

 

My hot water heater is in the hot water closet in my kitchen.At least
once each year I hook up my water hose and I drain the sediment through
the hose on out into my back yard.

Home Depot,,, patented little fan to stir up the sediment??? I never
heard of that one before! Buy a water heater at a plumbing supply store.

A city permit to install your own water heater? Why? Just buy a new
water heater and install it yourself, or get a neighbor to do it for
you.
cuhulin