Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 20:59:37 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 10:27:49 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

If you really want seamless roaming between access points, you'll need
a device that supports 802.11r and layer 3 (IP) roaming, which
maintain the same IP address and connection as you switch between
AP's:
https://meraki.cisco.com/technologies/seamless-mobility
For Ubiquity, you'll need a Zero Handoff Roaming (UniFi 3.0) device:
http://windowspbx.blogspot.com/2013/04/ubiquiti-unifi-now-supports-zero.html
http://dl.ubnt.com/datasheets/unifi/UBNT_DS_Zero_Handoff_Roaming.pdf
http://community.ubnt.com/t5/UniFi-Frequently-Asked-Questions/UniFi-What-is-Zero-Handoff/ta-p/412719

Unfortunately, he's on vacation, so I can't ask him
which version he set up the neighbor on, but, it seems
that the latest versions of Ubuiquit Unify software
do have the Zero-Handoff Roaming software included.

It was added in UniFi 3.x. I'm too lazy to lookup the current
version.

If you want to see what can be done with seamless roaming, try the
EduRoam system.
<https://www.eduroam.us/introduction>
<http://its.ucsc.edu/wireless-secure/using-eduroam.html>
I can login and authenticate at UCSC, put my laptop in standby, go for
a long drive around Monterey Bay, and reconnect at CSUMB, retaining
both the local DHCP IP address and any remote connections (if their
servers don't time out). It's really impressive.

--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:43:15 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@nowhere.com> wrote:

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 10:11:28 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Everyone seems to have different definitions of what constitutes
"carrier class" or "professional" wireless hardware. For me, it's
quite simple. Will it do SNMP and can it be monitored and managed
with 3rd party tools?

Interesting. I've got SNMP on all the Ubiquit radios, and,
I've never used it.

Well, it's time you tried it. Something like this, for your link to
your WISP, is what you should eventually get:
<http://community.ubnt.com/t5/airMax-General-Discussion/Signal-Noise-history/td-p/48143>

Basic Ubiquiti instructions:
<http://wiki.ubnt.com/SNMP_and_MRTG_Monitoring>
Do the first step to enable SNMP. Also, download ALL the MIB files
listed at the bottom of the page. You'll need them later.

SNMP "Community" is a lousy name for password. Depending on your
product, there are usually two community names. One for read-only
access. The other for write access. Use the read-only for now.

There's also PRTG if you want graphs:
<http://www.ireasoning.com/mibbrowser.shtml>
<http://www.paessler.com/prtg/screenshots>
<http://www.paessler.com/manuals/prtg/quick_start_guide.htm>
There are also Android and iPhone versions of the software.

There are others, but I think PRTG is the easiest MIB browser to get
started.

>Although, that was precisely your point!

Yep. The limiting factor is that to do SNMP properly, one needs a
dedicated "management workstation" also known as a server or data
dumpster. SNMP can potentially generate plenty of data and traffic.
Most home users don't want to deal with a dedicated data collector,
even though it can be done on a Raspberry Pi, a media server, or some
NAS boxes.
<http://www.supagusti.tk/computer/raspberrypi/160-installing-mrtg-on-your-pi>
<http://n00blab.com/cacti-pi/>
However, such servers are mandatory for running a WISP.



--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:47:48 -0800, Jeff Liebermann wrote:

Everything I write is interesting.
Sometimes, it's even accurate.

Heh heh ...

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:41:31 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:

I call it dueling routers. ^_^


As opposed to dualing routers? ;-)

I have five but they just make sawdust.

Stop using them on ultra liberal idiots, and let the termites finish
them off.


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Michael A. Terrell]

The Daring Dufas wrote:

On 12/24/2013 11:41 AM, Michael A. Terrell wrote:

The Daring Dufas wrote:

I call it dueling routers. ^_^


As opposed to dualing routers? ;-)


Or the dualism of routers. ^_^

That bytes! ;-)


--
Anyone wanting to run for any political office in the US should have to
have a DD214, and a honorable discharge.

 

[Char Jackson]

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:23:01 -0800, DevilsPGD <boogabooga@crazyhat.net>
wrote:

In the last episode of <vUutu.7824$VG.4535@fx12.iad>, Tony Hwang
dragon40@shaw.ca> said:

Do you use inSSIDer pro version or even free version? I think having
same SSID is not good. Won't it create confusion when connecting?

If the underlying networks are bridged, this is a supported
configuration and it allows client machines to move between the access
points seamlessly.

If the networks are not bridged, this will cause IP conflicts and other
problems.

If they aren't bridged, they're probably routed. Then, if each segment has a
unique IP address space, it should just work. But if each segment has the
same IP address space, the main problem won't be IP conflicts but rather IP
routing issues. The IP stack will treat it as Layer 2 but it needs to be
treated as Layer 3. I assume that's the "other problems" mentioned above.

 

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 23:10:50 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
<mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:

krw@attt.bizz wrote:

On Tue, 24 Dec 2013 12:41:31 -0500, "Michael A. Terrell"
mike.terrell@earthlink.net> wrote:


The Daring Dufas wrote:

I call it dueling routers. ^_^


As opposed to dualing routers? ;-)

I have five but they just make sawdust.


Stop using them on ultra liberal idiots, and let the termites finish
them off.

Nah, it's too hard to clean the routers after. The brains and guts
are too small to be a problem but the blood gets everywhere.

 

[DevilsPGD]

In the last episode of <a5fnb9lp84llsm0ddgompja33rsp9bhm6f@4ax.com>,
Char Jackson <none@none.invalid> said:

On Mon, 23 Dec 2013 16:23:01 -0800, DevilsPGD <boogabooga@crazyhat.net
wrote:

In the last episode of <vUutu.7824$VG.4535@fx12.iad>, Tony Hwang
dragon40@shaw.ca> said:

Do you use inSSIDer pro version or even free version? I think having
same SSID is not good. Won't it create confusion when connecting?

If the underlying networks are bridged, this is a supported
configuration and it allows client machines to move between the access
points seamlessly.

If the networks are not bridged, this will cause IP conflicts and other
problems.

If they aren't bridged, they're probably routed. Then, if each segment has a
unique IP address space, it should just work. But if each segment has the
same IP address space, the main problem won't be IP conflicts but rather IP
routing issues. The IP stack will treat it as Layer 2 but it needs to be
treated as Layer 3. I assume that's the "other problems" mentioned above.

The issue is more that when a mobile device jumps from one access point
to another (with the same SSID), it'll attempt to re-use it's existing
IP and ARP the default gateway. If the default gateway has the expected
MAC address it's assumed to be the same network and the device can
proceed as though nothing changed.

If the APR test succeeds, the total network interruption time is that of
one ARP lookup, which is probably on the order of 100ms-200ms, which is
barely noticed by the user. Small networks will be even faster,
obviously.

If the ARP fails, or returns a different MAC address, the device will
silently drop it's IP and start a new DHCP request. This is fine, but it
will cause a momentary interruption in traffic from the user's
perspective, possibly lasting long enough to generate application level
errors. In this case, using a different SSID is better because a smart
device may track past DHCP allocations and use the quick-start process
described above when returning to a SSID it recognizes, within it's
original DHCP lifespan.

--
'Outlook not so good.'
That magic 8-ball knows everything!

 

[Danny D'Amico]

On Fri, 27 Dec 2013 13:58:19 -0500, TJ wrote:

> aged batteries can do funny things before failing completely.

Thanks. This whole current:wattage thing is important, since without
power, it's just a conveniently sized brick - and - that darn GPS
sure *seems* to suck power out of my Samsung Galaxy S3!

I'm adding the GPS newsgroup, who might actually be able to answer
*how much power* GPS consumes in an Android cellphone anyway.

BTW, as further proof that price is no indication of quality (never was),
here are two ads which *sound similar* but which are not:

This (from the OP) 'says' it's a 3.1 Amp USB car charger adapter:
http://www.rakuten.com/prod/evogue-oem-3-1-amp-10w-fast-dual-usb-heavy-duty-ouput-car-charger/245314962.html

This 'is' a 3.1 Amp USB car charger adapter:
http://www.amazon.com/Tech-Armor-Charger-Watts-White/dp/B00CD0J4BG

The first is really only a 2.1 Amp charger because it's limited to
10 Watts (bearing in mind USB is 5 Volts); while the second is a
true 15 Watt charger (which means *both* ports can output the rated
current simultaneously).

Notice the price is almost the same (at $7 and $8 exclusive of tax
and shipping).

 

[Danny D.]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:43:15 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

> Interesting. I've got SNMP on all the Ubiquit radios, and,

Hi Jeff,
I had SNMP turned on all along in the rooftop radio; but
I'm not sure how to take advantage of it.

I set up the radio, but, I also provided my password to
my WISP; and I know he logged in and rebooted the radio
a few times when I first set it up because he had warned
me that he was going to "adjust" some settings.

So, he's using the SNMP, but I can't even spell it.

I've got a lot of reading to do, I guess, to take advantage
of whatever it does for me.

 

[Jeff Liebermann]

On Sun, 29 Dec 2013 06:42:58 +0000 (UTC), "Danny D."
<dannyd@nowhere.invalid> wrote:

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 19:43:15 +0000, Danny D. wrote:

Interesting. I've got SNMP on all the Ubiquit radios, and,

I had SNMP turned on all along in the rooftop radio; but
I'm not sure how to take advantage of it.

Also, you seem to have missed my last message on SNMP.
<https://groups.google.com/forum/message/raw?msg=alt.internet.wireless/fMLTzEHlzE8/B_-qhgqAXGcJ>
You can't do much with the free version of PRTG, but it's an easy
start. If not, go find another MIB browser.
<http://www.ireasoning.com/mibbrowser.shtml>
or SNMP graphing program.
<http://oss.oetiker.ch/mrtg/>
If you have a web server handy, use RRDTool and a template for Cacti
such as:
<http://docs.cacti.net/usertemplate:host:scgrab:ubiquiti>
<http://community.ubnt.com/t5/airMax-General-Discussion/Cacti-Host-template-for-AirOS-5-5/td-p/331019>
Note that the Ubiquiti supplied MIB for the various models is rather
limited, but does work for most common things. The rest will need to
be scraped from various configuration web page until Ubiquiti decides
to update the MIBs.

Or, you can have someone else do the monitoring for you:
<http://www.odmon.com>
Useless for troubleshooting a broken internet link because the data
goes over the internet.

I set up the radio, but, I also provided my password to
my WISP; and I know he logged in and rebooted the radio
a few times when I first set it up because he had warned
me that he was going to "adjust" some settings.

With SNMP, I don't believe that he needs your admin password. The
SNMP read and write community name acts as a password.

So, he's using the SNMP, but I can't even spell it.

I've got a lot of reading to do, I guess, to take advantage
of whatever it does for me.

Most WISP's use SNMP in some form for remote management and
monitoring. You might ask him what software (probably Nagios) he's
using.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558

 

[Aaron Leonard]

On Wed, 25 Dec 2013 14:47:48 -0800, Jeff Liebermann <jeffl@cruzio.com>
wrote:

~ >However ... just guessing ... it would seem to me
~ >that, if we use the same SSID, that the STRONGEST
~ >should win, and, if one disconnects, it *should*
~ >(logically anyway) switch seamlessly over to the
~ >stronger signal as the person roams the home.
~
~ <http://www.intel.com/support/wireless/wlan/sb/cs-015906.htm>
~ Fat chance. That's the way it should work. Instead, what happens is
~ that the client will remain connected to the initial access point, no
~ matter how weak or disgusting a signal it offers. Even if turn off
~ the client device, it will try to reconnect to the same initial access
~ point, even if there's a stronger/better signal with the same SSID
~ evailable. Even if you intentionally disconnect, the client will
~ retain the MAC address of the initial access point. When you try to
~ reconnect, it will try that MAC address first.
~
~ Intel seems to have gotten the clue and offers a setting as to how
~ "aggressive" the client will act in retaining a connection:
~ <http://www.intel.com/support/wireless/wlan/sb/CS-030101.htm>
~ It's not a total solution, but does work rather well on my various
~ laptops.

I think you're being overly pessimistic, Jeff. The scenario where
you have multiple APs advertising the same SSID on different
non-overlapping channels (where all BSSIDs are bridged to the same L2
broadcast domain), actually works pretty well with most clients
nowadays.

Our large customers often have buildings or campuses with dozens or
even hundreds or thousands of APs all offering the same SSID, and most
modern clients can roam throughout these coverage areas without losing
more than one or two seconds of data connectivity at roam time.

Most clients do offchannel scans for other APs will associated, so
they know what all other APs are out there (although the freshness of
that information will vary.) They are apt to decide to roam based
upon one or more factors like these:

* currently associated BSSID has dropped below a given RSSI threshold
(e.g. below -80 dBm)
* there exists a better BSSID whose RSSI is more than threshold k
stronger than the current one, so let's roam to it (e.g. k=15, so
if the current BSSID's RSSI is -74 dBm and another AP is at -57,
let's go there)
* n consecutive 802.11 retransmissions to the current BSSID have
failed (e.g. where n=32)
* n consective beacons from the current BSSID have been missed (e.g.
where n=10, i.e. ~1 second)

To be sure, in networks that are very large and/or have very stringent
performance requirements (hospitals), exotic roaming schemes involving
L3 tunneling, 802.11r, CCKM, WPA2 PMKID caching etc. can be called
for. But for home/small organization networks, basic WPA2/PSK roaming
across APs within a given SSID will work just fine (again, assuming
that all of these BSSIDs are bridged to the same broadcast domain.)

Cheers,

Aaron

 

Service Manual available here http://www.kallhovde.com/pioneer/tricomp/Audio/SX/SX-R9_RRV1937.pdf

Sorry it took 15 years to reply!

Alex

 

On Saturday, December 9, 2000 3:40:23 AM UTC-5, Michael Shell wrote:

Asimov wrote:


The answer is that the plastic breaks down when in contact with vinyl.
I've experienced this problem a number of times when leaving guitar
patch cords on top of plastic equipment for a length of time.

This is a real, and very serious, problem with lots of products.
Vinyl seems to emit a gas which will react with and destroy many substances.
A good example is those vinyl book covers which have turned the outside of
many a book into eternal sticky mush.

I thought that it may be a possibility that the keypad is reacting to the
green
protective PCB coating. The problem with that theory is:

1. The green coating is not degraded in any way.
2. Silicone rubber (and oil) is extremely inert. You have to work to
find something that will pick a fight with it.

It seems from the URL I cited, that silicone oil is trapped in the polymer
matrix during the manufacturing process. If steps are not taken to expel it,
it will leach out years later. Pressure points, which are highest at the
contact areas, tend to squeeze it out. Heat accelerates the process too.
Also, gravity
will tend to work the oil downward. Note that the idea that a soft rubber is
carrying a liquid within it is, in my opinion, creepy.

See a new thread: "my list of most hated design choices"


Mike

Very interesting about Silicone and Vinyl.
Though I find myself cleaning my Bravia remote every few months and this is after putting up with sketchy behavior for a month. The area that is affected the most on any of my present or past remotes seems to only be the Volume and Mute buttons which are used more than any of the others. Don't like listening to the overly load commercials. So maybe there is the rubbing of silicone against vinyl that is in play here. ???

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Vinyl seems to emit a gas which will react with and destroy many
substances. A good example is those vinyl book covers which have
turned the outside of many a book into eternal sticky mush.

It's not a gas, it's the plasticizer that keeps the vinyl flexible. I had the
same trouble with textbooks that had a kind "plastic-coated-board" covers. And
I've seen the plasticizer in patch cords attack plastic surfaces.

I am no aware of any plasticizer in the rubbery contacts of remote controls.

I've taken apart the keypad for my Ford. There is a silicone goo in it, which
I assume is there to prevent rust or corrosion.

 

[whit3rd]

On Friday, December 8, 2000 5:18:05 PM UTC-8, Michael Shell wrote:

Ok folks I think I have an answer!

Daniel Malik noticed that the keys (and remotes) that are used more
often, tend to have more oil problems. This is in agreement with my
observations.

One thing I have to make clear is that I *_KNOW_ * that whatever is
going on is NOT due to spillage or other external contamination. If I
had not seen it with my own eyes, I would not believe it either!...

The oil behaves a bit differently from most normal household
(and hand) oils.

1. It is not sticky in the least
2. It is VERY clear.
3. It is VERY hydrophobic and detergent action is noticeably less
than with most petroleum based oils.

I would not have noticed these fine points except for the fact that
I have worked with Silicone (DOT 5) brake fluid...

Probably, the rubbery key material is compounded with a plasticizer.
The oil is really the plasticizer material oozing out.

Plasticizers are additives that keep plastics flexible or springy, and
they can come out of the plastic as it ages (gummed-up old vinyl power
cords are a familiar example).

Brake fluid contains a plasticizer (to keep the o-rings and seals
properly rubbery).

 

[Michael Black]

On Thu, 13 Feb 2014, whit3rd wrote:

On Friday, December 8, 2000 5:18:05 PM UTC-8, Michael Shell wrote:
Ok folks I think I have an answer!

Daniel Malik noticed that the keys (and remotes) that are used more
often, tend to have more oil problems. This is in agreement with my
observations.

One thing I have to make clear is that I *_KNOW_ * that whatever is
going on is NOT due to spillage or other external contamination. If I
had not seen it with my own eyes, I would not believe it either!...

The oil behaves a bit differently from most normal household
(and hand) oils.

1. It is not sticky in the least
2. It is VERY clear.
3. It is VERY hydrophobic and detergent action is noticeably less
than with most petroleum based oils.

I would not have noticed these fine points except for the fact that
I have worked with Silicone (DOT 5) brake fluid...

Probably, the rubbery key material is compounded with a plasticizer.
The oil is really the plasticizer material oozing out.

Plasticizers are additives that keep plastics flexible or springy, and
they can come out of the plastic as it ages (gummed-up old vinyl power
cords are a familiar example).

Brake fluid contains a plasticizer (to keep the o-rings and seals
properly rubbery).

I'm pretty sure something about this is in the FAQ. No reason to agree to
a 14 year old post. The guy isn't here anymore.

Michael

 

On Sunday, June 1, 1997 3:00:00 AM UTC-4, John Whitmore wrote:

I've recently acquired a Phase Linear 400. This was
an historically important audio amp, as it was the first of the
wave of high-powered amplifiers that came out of the 1970's.

This unit, though, has been through some tough times.
I've found lots of shorted and fried components, but the
main difficulty is in the output transistors.

There are four different types plugged in to the
sixteen TO-3 sockets. The outputs are four composite-Darlington
transistors, each having a single driver feeding three
paralleled output transistors. Someone in the past
replaced some of the paralleled outputs with various types.
So, I don't trust the types of transistors I see there.
Also, I don't know what the original drivers were.

Driver types: GE-37, DTS-701, RCA410
The first two are 700V, 1A; the third is 300V, 5A rated.

Output types: GE-37, PL-909
The first is clearly inappropriate in this application,
and the second is (apparently) a Fairchild special part
number for Phase Linear. I assume it's intended to be
a high current type, and possibly similar to 2N5264
(a Fairchild power transistor of the right era).

From the emitter degeneration resistance (0.22 ohms)
I suspect the output transistors should be roughly 5A rated.
Does anyone know? Should I just jam in MJ15003's?
Or maybe MJ410's (very similar to the RCA410)?

And as for the drivers; should they all be the same
type as the outputs? What were the original drivers?

Thanks for any info; this can't interest many folk,
so e-mail is preferred.

John Whitmore
whit@hipress.phys.washington.edu

If interested I have some XPL909 for sale
georgesantel@gmail.com

 

There is a website for these.

http://thecarversite.com/

THAT is where you get information on these. I bought one with a fried right channel a couple years ago and due to improper servicing it had blown it all the way back to the current limiters. Surprisingly it did not blow the drivers, but it did blow one predriver. I forgot what I used for those but I DID look at spec sheets etc. because you don't just go to NTE and get transistors for something like this. If you need anything other than the outputs I will find you the correct transistors, don't trust anyone on this. A couple of them are germanium.

The current correct output transistor type is MJ15024 available from Digikey for reasonable, about five bucks each. Replace them ALL in one bank, no exceptions. Each in a bank of three has to equally share the current, and rated down to four ohms with 85 volts rails that pretty much stay put, you don't need any current hogs. That's what happened to mine, it blew the emitter resistor on the one in a bank used for current detection. This is why it blew the predrivrs but not the drivers.

Remove the transistors for checking, all the resistances are too low in the whole thig to do it in circuit. Check ALL emitter resistors. After all is said and done, you can run it on the bench without a load connected with all of the outputs removed and it should look right on a scope, with possible SLIGHT early clipping on one side of the waveform.

There are two types of these, most use all NPN outputs and drivers, the other uses complemmentary. As far as I know only some of the Series Two amps were complementary. If it has the LED meters you don't know, those were built around 1979 and 1980 right after Pioneer bought the company. These have an IC on the board rather than the usual diff pair at the input.

The older ones with the analog meters as fas as I know all used all NPN outputs and drivers.

After I got the right channel fixed I was jamming it and the damn left channel fried. The reason was that where the heavy wires act as a bus and connects all the collectors together in one of the banks of outputs had come loose, it broke the solder over the years. Check ALL connections to ALL outputs because even one of them off can fry the whole channel.

Really, if you are not used to working on high power amps like this, you could waste alot of silicon.

The price break on the MJ15024s comes at ten pieces, so just get twelve and replace them all. With any luck they will all be from the same batch so matching will not be a big problem. There is a matching procedure required after replacing the outputs to assure they are properly matched. If not they could fail prematurely when pushed hard, and you buy this amp to push it hard.

A short at the output terminals should not fry this amp, but connecting it to certain low impedance loads can. The book says never go below four ohms, but many four ohm systems do just that. Bob Carver knew this and set the current limiting to handle probably down to about three ohms because of those gnarly woofers and infinite baffle systems of the day, but any lower and it is vulnerable.

Aso note these amps have abslutely no speaker protection whatsoever, no relay no nothing. They recommend you use speaker fuses calculated to your particular speaker handling capabilities, the formula is in the book.

If you buy the manual you have been scammed, it is available for free not only from carversite, but a few other places. I think you can get it at bama as well, but the best one with the addendums etc. is at carversite. There is a note about certain Infinity speakers that use some ungodly high value cap in their crossover that affects the power down of these amps and can result in a transient if turned back on too quickly. If you got this, you got the right manual. Also note that you do have to sift through that manual as more than one version is covered.

When you get it working you probably won't want to sell it. Even at flat response it sounds better due to an extraordinarily high damping factor. This is one of the few amps that can really benefit from heavy guage (and short) speaker wires. The cones of the speakers act like servomotors actually. Mine is not for sale except under extreme duress, and I mean for alot more than it's worth. You can't buy an amp like this for less than twice what you could sell it for.

So fix it right.

There is a guy on eBay who claims to fix these right for about $350 no matter what is wrong with them. Of course two way shipping is probably extra. The point is, there is a reason people don't fix these things for a hundred bucks.

Get the ohmmeter out before even plugging the thing in and keep us posted.

 

Dammit ! Why are people regurgitating old posts now ? This is not hte first time this has happened. It has happened a few times lately.

Oh well, if anyone need advice on those thins I guess there it is.