Toshiba TV29C90 problem; Image fades to black...

[Michael Black]

kony (spam@spam.com) writes:

On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 20:07:02 +0100, Conor
conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote:

In article <gcjag1trj0quc7hec5ravaic28911mnc8n@4ax.com>, kony says...
On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:01:03 +0100, Conor
conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote:

In article <1124391797.339580.15430@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larry moe 'n curly says...

I realize that, but in this case I can't imagine why the manufacture
would vary the design because the fuses are for keyboard (and maybe
mouse), USB, and Ethernet, and this particular mobo doesn't seem to
have any missing features for these because it does allow wake on
keyboard/mouse/USB/Ethernet.

For that particular model.


Yes, BUT for that particular model the fuses ARE missing.

And?

And, the ports DO work. It was not a matter of omitting
fuses or jumpers for features not present if these are as
described. So, you have to have an alternate way of getting
the power to those ports if it's not traveling the same path
as (practically any) motherboard out there. Perhaps if
you'd more carefully examined more boards you'd appreciate
the distinction, as larry moe 'n curly did have a valid
point and had also recognized that when the fuses aren't
employed there IS a jumper in it's place or copper track
across the pads. This particular board he has is unique in
this respect.


But has someone actually traced the board? Like I said, boards

can be laid out to permit different size parts. You do not see
jumpers across the component pads. The traces take circuitous
routes, and the parts may not be right next to the alternative
component pads.

If jumpers are needed, I suspect they'd be laid out as jumpers,
rather than expecting a machine to jam in jumpers across pads
laid out for components. And the jumper pads may not be right
next to the "missing" components.

Hence unless someone gets out an ohmmeter and traces the circuit
board, they can't be sure what's happening.

Michael

 

[Franc Zabkar]

On Thu, 18 Aug 2005 21:01:03 +0100, Conor <conor.turton@gmail.com> put
finger to keyboard and composed:

In article <1124391797.339580.15430@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larry moe 'n curly says...

I realize that, but in this case I can't imagine why the manufacture
would vary the design because the fuses are for keyboard (and maybe
mouse), USB, and Ethernet, and this particular mobo doesn't seem to
have any missing features for these because it does allow wake on
keyboard/mouse/USB/Ethernet.

For that particular model.

What is it about the OP's post that you don't understand? He has
stated that all the motherboard's IO functions are operational. This
means that *all* devices are getting their power from the motherboard,
despite several fuse locations being unpopulated, ie *open*. So the
OP's question as to what function these missing fuses would have
performed is a valid and logical one.


- Franc Zabkar
--
Please remove one 's' from my address when replying by email.

 

[Jumpster Jiver]

larry moe 'n curly wrote:

Conor wrote:

In article <1124355840.478272.157770@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
larry moe 'n curly says...


Yes, but why specifically is the circuit board laid out for those
fuses?


Fuck sake...you really have no idea do you?

It is far cheaper for manufacturers to design and stock one PCB to work
across many models than to design and make a PCB for each individual
model.


I realize that, but in this case I can't imagine why the manufacture
would vary the design because the fuses are for keyboard (and maybe
mouse), USB, and Ethernet, and this particular mobo doesn't seem to
have any missing features for these because it does allow wake on
keyboard/mouse/USB/Ethernet.

In this case, maybe a certain country has different safety standards
that require the keyboard, mouse, etc. to be fused, so on the models
sent to that country they are fused, and the same model marketed in
other countries leaves the fuse out and maybe puts a cheaper jumper in
to save money on components.
In large quantities the fuse may cost a penny and a jumper may cost 1/10
of a penny. Over hundreds of thousands of boards it makes a difference.

 

[Jumpster Jiver]

What is it about the OP's post that you don't understand? He has
stated that all the motherboard's IO functions are operational. This
means that *all* devices are getting their power from the motherboard,
despite several fuse locations being unpopulated, ie *open*. So the
OP's question as to what function these missing fuses would have
performed is a valid and logical one.


- Franc Zabkar

While I'm sure that on this MOBO the fuse POSITIONS are open, I'd bet
that the circuit is not. Chances are that SOMEWHERE ELSE in the path of
that circuit where the fuse would have been there is a jumper. As
some other knowlegable posters stated, it may not be physically in the
same location as the missing fuse, but it is in the same circuit.
I'm sure if two boards were compared sie-by-side and only one is found
to have fuses then I'd bet that somewhere on that board it is missing a
jumper for each fuse it has.
They may be the size of a surface-mount resistor and thus very difficult
to find, or it may be a tiny solder bridge or even a full size jumper
like the 1/4 watt size, but it must be there somewhere!

 

[Conor]

In article <a2lcg1pq40gokbpkik810vmnon9c1vma05@4ax.com>, kony says...

And, the ports DO work.

So?

It was not a matter of omitting
fuses or jumpers for features not present if these are as
described. So, you have to have an alternate way of getting
the power to those ports if it's not traveling the same path
as (practically any) motherboard out there.

DUMB AS A FUCKING BOX OF ROCKS.

I take it you've "dabbled " in electronics as a hobby? Yes? Maybe made
your own circuits? Yes?

Whooptie friggin doo.

Now go learn about multilayered PCBS - that's what industry commonly
use. That's when one PCB has several layers of copper sandwidched
together.

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/multilyr.htm


THis company here: http://www.clarydon.com/services/multilayer.html

...does up to 24 layers on a single PCB.

Just because the tracks you CAN see go to the fuse, doesn't mean tracks
you CAN'T see don't.


--
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic
music.

 

[Conor]

In article <de5r52$dh8$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>, Michael Black says...

But has someone actually traced the board?

I doubt it.

Not forgetting that you need to not only trace both sides at the same
time. remembering those little holes are actually links from one side
to another, but also find out whethere there are layers in the middle
too.


--
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic
music.

 

[Conor]

In article <revcg1l0o8u31gpmb3idja9dkrq59ctte9@4ax.com>, Franc Zabkar
says...

What is it about the OP's post that you don't understand? He has
stated that all the motherboard's IO functions are operational. This
means that *all* devices are getting their power from the motherboard,
despite several fuse locations being unpopulated, ie *open*. So the
OP's question as to what function these missing fuses would have
performed is a valid and logical one.

And he has had an answer. To provide flexibiity in the motherboard for

the manufacturer to use it for more than one type of product.


--
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic
music.

 

[Kadaitcha Man]

Conor, <conor.turton@gmail.com>, the ineffectual, porn-ogling rat, and
employee in charge of emptying cesspools, bickered:

In article <a2lcg1pq40gokbpkik810vmnon9c1vma05@4ax.com>, kony says...

And, the ports DO work.

So?

It was not a matter of omitting
fuses or jumpers for features not present if these are as
described. So, you have to have an alternate way of getting
the power to those ports if it's not traveling the same path
as (practically any) motherboard out there.

DUMB AS A FUCKING BOX OF ROCKS.

I take it you've "dabbled " in electronics as a hobby? Yes? Maybe made
your own circuits? Yes?

Whooptie friggin doo.

Now go learn about multilayered PCBS - that's what industry commonly
use. That's when one PCB has several layers of copper sandwidched
together.

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/multilyr.htm


THis company here: http://www.clarydon.com/services/multilayer.html

..does up to 24 layers on a single PCB.

Just because the tracks you CAN see go to the fuse, doesn't mean
tracks you CAN'T see don't.

Hello, coonertard. It looks like it's time for you to be slapped down a few
pegs again.

--
Doug Grant <DGVREIMAN@COMCAST.NET> wrote:

If you want to respond to my posts... then email me and
I will either allow you to do so or not.

 

[Kadaitcha Man]

Jumpster Jiver, <me@no.spam.today>, the bone-lazy, nameless dumbass, and
bobbin turner, pined:

What is it about the OP's post that you don't understand? He has
stated that all the motherboard's IO functions are operational. This
means that *all* devices are getting their power from the
motherboard, despite several fuse locations being unpopulated, ie
*open*. So the OP's question as to what function these missing fuses
would have performed is a valid and logical one.


- Franc Zabkar

While I'm sure that on this MOBO the fuse POSITIONS are open, I'd bet
that the circuit is not. Chances are that SOMEWHERE ELSE in the path
of that circuit where the fuse would have been there is a jumper. As
some other knowlegable posters stated, it may not be physically in the
same location as the missing fuse, but it is in the same circuit.
I'm sure if two boards were compared sie-by-side and only one is found
to have fuses then I'd bet that somewhere on that board it is missing
a jumper for each fuse it has.
They may be the size of a surface-mount resistor and thus very
difficult to find, or it may be a tiny solder bridge or even a full
size jumper like the 1/4 watt size, but it must be there somewhere!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH! You fucking stupid cunt.

--
Doug Grant <DGVREIMAN@COMCAST.NET> wrote:

If you want to respond to my posts... then email me and
I will either allow you to do so or not.

 

[kony]

On 19 Aug 2005 23:48:50 GMT, et472@FreeNet.Carleton.CA
(Michael Black) wrote:

But has someone actually traced the board? Like I said, boards
can be laid out to permit different size parts. You do not see
jumpers across the component pads. The traces take circuitous
routes, and the parts may not be right next to the alternative
component pads.

If jumpers are needed, I suspect they'd be laid out as jumpers,
rather than expecting a machine to jam in jumpers across pads
laid out for components. And the jumper pads may not be right
next to the "missing" components.

While that seems logical in a good design, what we have in
these cases is "usually" a board layout that allows for the
various fuses, but then later the fuses are not added
(shaves a couple cents cost) but rather that fuse location
has a jumper wire, or just traced over.

Hence unless someone gets out an ohmmeter and traces the circuit
board, they can't be sure what's happening.

Michael

I agree, but still it's curious that this particular board
has this setup. He and I have both noted many boards with
the fuses there OR missing where they had used more obvious
method of continuity of the 5V supply by merely bridging the
pad(s) gap where a fuse could've gone.

 

[kony]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:36:53 +0100, Conor
<conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote:

In article <de5r52$dh8$1@theodyn.ncf.ca>, Michael Black says...

But has someone actually traced the board?

I doubt it.

Not forgetting that you need to not only trace both sides at the same
time. remembering those little holes are actually links from one side
to another, but also find out whethere there are layers in the middle
too.

Usually not, the 5V power plane does not extend that far and
generally singular 5V traces are not put in middle layers
for such ports. "Maybe" they did it, but if so this is
first time I (or apparently LM&C) has seen it.

 

[kony]

On Sat, 20 Aug 2005 08:35:23 +0100, Conor
<conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote:

In article <a2lcg1pq40gokbpkik810vmnon9c1vma05@4ax.com>, kony says...

And, the ports DO work.

So?

It was not a matter of omitting
fuses or jumpers for features not present if these are as
described. So, you have to have an alternate way of getting
the power to those ports if it's not traveling the same path
as (practically any) motherboard out there.

DUMB AS A FUCKING BOX OF ROCKS.

I take it you've "dabbled " in electronics as a hobby? Yes? Maybe made
your own circuits? Yes?

Whooptie friggin doo.

You would do to stop pretending you have vast knowledge and
gain some ACTUAL hands-on experiece with motherboards. AT
least then you'd have a slight hint at what's being
discussed and the significance of it.

Instead you guess about it, because it has some passing
similarity to some other electronics circuits? Well this
isn't "some other" circuit.

Now go learn about multilayered PCBS - that's what industry commonly
use. That's when one PCB has several layers of copper sandwidched
together.

http://www.thinktink.com/stack/volumes/volvi/multilyr.htm

Please take the hint that the problem is not our lack of
understanding very basic circuit board concepts but yours in
not realizing what is normally seen on motherboards.

Some grand (but simplistic) thought about multiple layers
does not change the fact that no other boards that (we're)
aware of, use inner layers for port power. I welcome anyone
to come forward with examples of any boards that do.

Further, if this board had an inner layer suppling (5V), it
would make the 5V traces, fuse pads on top completely
worthless and just a waste of space to put on the board at
all... yet there they are.

THis company here: http://www.clarydon.com/services/multilayer.html

..does up to 24 layers on a single PCB.

Just because the tracks you CAN see go to the fuse, doesn't mean tracks
you CAN'T see don't.

Never claimed otherwise. Now give us even one example of a
board that does this so your theory is something more than a
wild guess.

 

[SMS]

Ken Weitzel wrote:

Just thinking out loud... not only different models, but
that one board design will have been designed for use in
different parts of the world.

Perhaps outher countries have different code requirements for
things "extended from" the main chassis?

This is the reason. I used to work for a large Taiwanese motherboard
company. If the board was being sold into a channel where there was no
UL/CSA/TUV, etc. requirement for fusing the power going off the board,
then the fuses were eliminated. Motherboards sold at retail are not
going into systems that will ever need to be certified by a safety
agency, so there is a savings of a few cents per board by eliminating
the fuses.

There are other savings that are possible with boards that would never
be used in systems that would go through agency approval. You can use
cheaper PC board material. You can eliminate the double protection
against charging the on-board lithium battery. IIRC, those were the only
three things that the safety agencies looked at. For EMI, there were
other items that could be eliminated.

Wouldn't explain a missing fuse all by itself, but perhaps
one jumper is eliminated elsewhere and then the fuse is
required...

It is probable that the motherboard company changed one of the inner
layers of the board (the power layer) on the board in question, to
eliminate the need for a jumper, or a copper trace, on the top or bottom
layer. Installing a jumper, or cutting a trace, is as expensive as
putting in a fuse.

Acually UL does NOT require fuses. You have the option of providing a
keyboard and mouse where a short from power to ground, with the maximum
current that the power supply can provide, will not result in an unsafe
condition (excessive heat or fire). Never mind that the PC board trace
would be destroyed long before the maximum current condition ever
occured. Needless to say, it was easier to put in a fuse, and trying to
argue with UL is like trying to teach calculus to a cat.

 

[Ben Dover]

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?form=SPECIAL&SPECIAL=SPEC

SHOCKING LIE DETECTOR
SHOCKING SHOOTING GAME
SHOCKING BATTLE TANKS

It seems to be in the deregulated country we live in, people have forgotten
"it has been illegal to give anyone else a electrical shock"

 

[Conor]

In article <hr4eg1h4b03rjj94hu9105q570mmh56bmb@4ax.com>, kony says...

You would do to stop pretending you have vast knowledge and
gain some ACTUAL hands-on experiece with motherboards.

I had hands on experience of multilayered PCBs back in 1987 working as
an engineer in the video games repair industry.

AT
least then you'd have a slight hint at what's being
discussed and the significance of it.

I have. More than you it would seem.

Please take the hint that the problem is not our lack of
understanding very basic circuit board concepts but yours in
not realizing what is normally seen on motherboards.

I know exactly what is normally seen. I also know that some functions

have ended up being integrated into ICs themselves. As well as that, my
background comes from an industry which routinely scrubbed numbers off
chips and also misnumbered them to prevent piracy.

Some grand (but simplistic) thought about multiple layers
does not change the fact that no other boards that (we're)
aware of, use inner layers for port power. I welcome anyone
to come forward with examples of any boards that do.

Why wouldn't they?

Further, if this board had an inner layer suppling (5V), it
would make the 5V traces, fuse pads on top completely
worthless and just a waste of space to put on the board at
all... yet there they are.

So they're there. SO FUCKING WHAT? I can show you 20 CB radios from one

manufacturers, all based on the same board layout. On each model, the
PCB is the same but the components differ with blanks being left for
unused sections.



--
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic
music.

 

[Conor]

In article <7LFNe.9962$p%3.38610@typhoon.sonic.net>, SMS says...

It is probable that the motherboard company changed one of the inner
layers of the board (the power layer) on the board in question, to
eliminate the need for a jumper, or a copper trace, on the top or bottom
layer. Installing a jumper, or cutting a trace, is as expensive as
putting in a fuse.

snip

Kony, despite two of us now saying the same thing, will claim he is
right.

--
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic
music.

 

[James Sweet]

In this case, maybe a certain country has different safety standards
that require the keyboard, mouse, etc. to be fused, so on the models
sent to that country they are fused, and the same model marketed in
other countries leaves the fuse out and maybe puts a cheaper jumper in
to save money on components.
In large quantities the fuse may cost a penny and a jumper may cost 1/10
of a penny. Over hundreds of thousands of boards it makes a difference.

It's reasonably common to design a board to accomodate two or more styles of
certain components so either can be used depending on which is most
available/least expensive at the time of manufacture. For example one of the
boards made where I work had pads in place for two different package styles
of voltage regulator, the pads are wired in parallel but only one location
is stuffed with the part.

 

[James Sweet]

"Conor" <conor.turton@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:MPG.1d71edb778d3530998a827@news.individual.net...

In article <hr4eg1h4b03rjj94hu9105q570mmh56bmb@4ax.com>, kony says...

You would do to stop pretending you have vast knowledge and
gain some ACTUAL hands-on experiece with motherboards.

I had hands on experience of multilayered PCBs back in 1987 working as
an engineer in the video games repair industry.

AT
least then you'd have a slight hint at what's being
discussed and the significance of it.

I have. More than you it would seem.

Please take the hint that the problem is not our lack of
understanding very basic circuit board concepts but yours in
not realizing what is normally seen on motherboards.

I know exactly what is normally seen. I also know that some functions
have ended up being integrated into ICs themselves. As well as that, my
background comes from an industry which routinely scrubbed numbers off
chips and also misnumbered them to prevent piracy.

Some grand (but simplistic) thought about multiple layers
does not change the fact that no other boards that (we're)
aware of, use inner layers for port power. I welcome anyone
to come forward with examples of any boards that do.

Why wouldn't they?

Further, if this board had an inner layer suppling (5V), it
would make the 5V traces, fuse pads on top completely
worthless and just a waste of space to put on the board at
all... yet there they are.

So they're there. SO FUCKING WHAT? I can show you 20 CB radios from one
manufacturers, all based on the same board layout. On each model, the
PCB is the same but the components differ with blanks being left for
unused sections.

Regardless of your level or lack of knowledge, your attitude certainly
leaves much to be desired.

 

[Conor]

In article <ofRNe.1038$g47.701@trnddc07>, James Sweet says...

Regardless of your level or lack of knowledge, your attitude certainly
leaves much to be desired.

I guess you're not that old?

--
Conor

If Pac-Man affected us as kids, we'd all be running around in darkened
rooms, munching magic pills and listening to repetitive electronic
music.

 

[Tom MacIntyre]

On Sun, 21 Aug 2005 11:22:39 +1200, "Ben Dover" <BD@bd.net> wrote:

http://www.jaycar.com.au/productResults.asp?form=SPECIAL&SPECIAL=SPEC

SHOCKING LIE DETECTOR
SHOCKING SHOOTING GAME
SHOCKING BATTLE TANKS

It seems to be in the deregulated country we live in, people have forgotten
"it has been illegal to give anyone else a electrical shock"

Electric shock therapy is illegal? Where?

Tom