Think this through with me ...

[Gareth Magennis]

"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vBqdl.6405$aO6.4274@bignews3.bellsouth.net...

Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of
the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the
stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.

Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens
working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot
machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent
many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to
play. " Another Winner!"

Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak

Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working
travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based
on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals.


Gareth.

 

[jakdedert]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vBqdl.6405$aO6.4274@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of
the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the
stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've
never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but
somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and teens
working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining slot
machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I spent
many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others to
play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those working
travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy connotation, based
on the belief that such people must, of course, be criminals.


Gareth.


I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.

Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.

jak

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
newsfmdnWhtwIkMbejUnZ2dnUVZ8oGdnZ2d@bt.com...

Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer
system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo
clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players.

How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game,
quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not
how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being
blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer
generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall
into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some
programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded.
Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different
empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during
the inter-session tabletop games.

Arfa

It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game,
where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

 

[Arfa Daily]

"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:aSpdl.7051$MT3.5174@bignews4.bellsouth.net...

Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what
the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.

Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players.
It was even easier to manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game,
where wooden balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss this,
it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot more
mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old ladies at
church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms, but I've never
bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different demographic, but somehow I
doubt it.

jak

Bingo in the UK is huge. Just about every town and city has a bingo hall.
There are a couple of very large chains, and several smaller independants
who operate them. They are often located in former cinemas, but many are
also in custom buildings. You have to be 18 and a member to enter the
premises and play, because it is licensed as a gambling establishment.
Whilst the game and clubs used to be associated primarily with the blue
rinse brigade, most have worked hard to dispel this image, and the
demographic has changed a lot over the past 15 years perhaps. You will now
find all ages from 18 to 80+ all happily attending a bingo club. The social
aspect has been 'bigged up' considerably, and most clubs now have
comfortable table seating, air conditioning, bars and food, as well as
slots, and sometimes entertainment as well. My local club holds over 1800
people, and there are others that are even bigger.

http://www.rivabingo.com/find_a_club/specific_club_details/northampton

Several millions GBP are paid out in prize money collectively, every week.
In my club for instance, on a Sunday night, the last three in-house games
are worth Ł1500 each. The Sunday night link game is worth Ł13000, and the
National Game used to be worth Ł200k, but less now. A couple of years back,
I took a share of the National Game regional pot, which amounted to nearly
Ł7k, so not to be sneezed at.

I don't know how long this situation will persist though. The industry was
dealt a big blow by the smoking ban that was brought in in 2006, and then
another one when our government's chancellor altered the taxation laws to
get double tax from the clubs. The current economic situation might be the
last straw, if people start to see their wallets getting thinner, and
continue to lose their jobs. Social activities like bingo, would likely be
one of the first belt-tightening exercises. I would think that the balance
between keeping prize money at a level that makes it worth going, against
revenue from falling numbers, would be a tricky one, that probably has a
graph with a cliff on it ...

Arfa

 

[Ron]

Arfa Daily wrote:

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
newsfmdnWhtwIkMbejUnZ2dnUVZ8oGdnZ2d@bt.com...
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current computer
system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what the bingo
clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual players.

How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the game,
quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play, but not
how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them being
blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern computer
generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend to fall
into a range during any particular session, presumably as a result of some
programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is derived or loaded.
Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play table to a different
empty one with a board number in the numeric area that is winning, during
the inter-session tabletop games.

Well, I wouldnt want to give away too many secrets but the bingo
caller can see the balls in the tube, including the numbers, and he can
if he wishes by putting his hand over the top of the tube, send them
back down. The numbers on fixed cards aren't random.
A good caller can work the crowd, build up tension ("Is anybody
sweating?") It is a form of entertainment, and there`s a lot of
showmanship involved.

I think it`s all a bit sterile these days.

Ron

 

[Ron]

jakdedert wrote:

Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vBqdl.6405$aO6.4274@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no
matter what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s
busy, and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good
operator can direct the wins to various areas of the house -
possibly even to individual players. It was even easier to
manipulate a game in the earlier days of the game, where wooden
balls were rolled down a chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo
rooms, but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a
different demographic, but somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was
maintaining slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small
scale. As a yoof, I spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various
stalls, including several bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage
others to play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the
closest term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with
no fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those
working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy
connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be
criminals.


Gareth.

I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.

Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or
ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in
the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and
there are wintering grounds which have been established for many many
years. There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect
they are few these days.


Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and
travellers.

My how far we've wandered from the topic.

Ron

 

[Gareth Magennis]

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:2Oudndy3KeqYduvUnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@bt.com...

jakdedert wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vBqdl.6405$aO6.4274@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy,
and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can
direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to
individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the
earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a
chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms,
but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different
demographic, but somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining
slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I
spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several
bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak


Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those
working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy
connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be
criminals.


Gareth.

I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.

Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or
ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in
the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there
are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years.
There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are
few these days.


Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and
travellers.

Like a lot of definitions, including Gypsy, and Traveller, the term "Pikey"
has different meaning to different groups of people, and is constantly
evolving.
In the UK it is generally considered pretty offensive, given that its use is
intended primarily as an instrument of predudice and hate. Not that far
from the use of the word "Paki". (But of couse you have to take the
context and intent behind each actual use of the word rather than draw a
blanket conclusion as to its offensiveness).

I'm not sure how offensive "Carnie" is perceived in the US.


Gareth.

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:0POdnUb64dxne-vUnZ2dnUVZ8sGdnZ2d@bt.com...

Arfa Daily wrote:
"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
newsfmdnWhtwIkMbejUnZ2dnUVZ8oGdnZ2d@bt.com...
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter what
the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games last
longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy, and in
bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can direct the
wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to individual
players.

How ? Just interested, as I find the whole setup and logistics of the
game, quite fascinating. I can see how you could alter the speed of play,
but not how you could manipulate the picking of balls as a result of them
being blown up a tube from a fast and randomly moving pool. With modern
computer generated cash or party bingo, the winning board numbers do tend
to fall into a range during any particular session, presumably as a
result of some programming foible with the way that the PRNG seed is
derived or loaded. Savvy players can be seen to move from their main play
table to a different empty one with a board number in the numeric area
that is winning, during the inter-session tabletop games.


Well, I wouldnt want to give away too many secrets but the bingo
caller can see the balls in the tube, including the numbers, and he can if
he wishes by putting his hand over the top of the tube, send them back
down. The numbers on fixed cards aren't random.
A good caller can work the crowd, build up tension ("Is anybody
sweating?") It is a form of entertainment, and there`s a lot of
showmanship involved.

I think it`s all a bit sterile these days.

Ron

Ah, OK. With you now. I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time
mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more
random. There's still a fair bit of showmanship involved in the high speed
tabletop cash bingo, even though it is computer based. Most of the ones who
call it in my club, are 'characters', and do a fine job of 'working the
crowd', particularly when there are bonus prizes involved. I do however,
agree that there was more skill and tension involved when the board in play
was marked by having to spot the numbers, and slide little shutters over
them. With the modern electronic boards, it is only necessary to keep waving
a hand continuously over the 'mark' lozenge, to ensure that every number
that you have on your board is lit as it's called (or even before it's
called). The only skill then is in spotting that you have a winning
combination so that you can wave your hand over the 'win' lozenge ...

People who play the tabletop games tend to always sit at the same table, as
they have 'learnt' the sixteen numbers on their board. My wife can tell if
she would have won, even if she's not playing. She can do this even if she's
doing something else like reading a newspaper. She can be reading something
to you, and will stop mid-sentence and say "I'd have just won if I'd had my
money in". Amazing what the brain is capable of doing, and I believe that
the female brain is better than the male at this sort of horizontal
multi-tasking.

Arfa

 

[Ron]

Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all

worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a one-at-a-time
mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make it any more
random.

There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results
of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been
suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have
been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would
suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the
organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

 

[Roy L]

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:Cu6dnRRLubOXu-rUnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com...

Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a
one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could
make it any more random.

There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the
results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely
random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been
suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to
have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the
average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in
teh interwebs I think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in
the organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no

longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some
years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is
random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from
LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real
reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was
discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded
RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the
draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been
a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy

 

[Ron]

Roy L wrote:

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:Cu6dnRRLubOXu-rUnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com...
Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a
one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could
make it any more random.
There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the
results of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely
random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been
suggested that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to
have been heavily picked tend to come out less often that the
average would suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in
teh interwebs I think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in
the organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no
longer believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some
years back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is
random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from
LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real
reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was
discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or embedded
RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the
draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has there ever been
a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Personally, I`d much rather 14 people won 1 million pounds each than one
person winning 14 million.

Ron

 

[jakdedert]

Gareth Magennis wrote:

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:2Oudndy3KeqYduvUnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@bt.com...
jakdedert wrote:
Gareth Magennis wrote:
"jakdedert" <jakdedert@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:vBqdl.6405$aO6.4274@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
Ron wrote:
jakdedert wrote:
Ron wrote:
Arfa Daily wrote:

The blower and ball system is a lot more random than the current
computer system, which generates very definite patterns, no matter
what the bingo clubs would have you believe to the contrary.
Actually Arfa, it`s very easy for an experienced bingo caller to
manipulate games using the old blower machine. He can make games
last longer in slack periods or get them over quick when it`s busy,
and in bingo halls or stalls with fixed cards, a good operator can
direct the wins to various areas of the house - possibly even to
individual players. It was even easier to manipulate a game in the
earlier days of the game, where wooden balls were rolled down a
chute directed by the stallholder.

Ron(UK)

Listening to you teabags (I use the term affectionately) discuss
this, it's obvious that Bingo--however it's played there--is a lot
more mainstream than here. Here, it's played mostly by little old
ladies at church socials. That said, many casinos have Bingo rooms,
but I've never bothered to peek in. Possibly it's a different
demographic, but somehow I doubt it.
Oh well I come from a fairground family, I spent my childhood and
teens working on a fair. My grounding in electrickery was maintaining
slot machines, later manufacturing them on a small scale. As a yoof, I
spent many hours 'geeing'[1] on the various stalls, including several
bingos.

Ron

[1] playing for nothing, pretending to be a punter to encourage others
to play. " Another Winner!"
Do they have the term 'carnie' over there? I think that's the closest
term to describe it. Unfortunately it has a somewhat seedy
connotation...no offense.

jak

Closest to that is "Pikey". i.e. "Gypsies", travellers, people with no
fixed abode, or those who live in caravans. Which includes those
working travelling fairs I guess. It also has a somewhat seedy
connotation, based on the belief that such people must, of course, be
criminals.


Gareth.

I think the operative part is 'itinerant', which defines carnies.
Fixed-base tourist attraction proprietors have a different cache
altogether...some good, some bad, but usually based on their own merits
without a stereotype. Most of the carnies I've met did (at least) skirt
the law. That's not to say that I've known all that many, but enough
to confirm the general opinion...at least IMM.
Certainly in the UK, fairground people aren't itinerant, most stall or
ride owners own houses (some of them quite spectacular). Fairgrounds in
the UK don't tour in the Winter apart from maybe Christmas time and there
are wintering grounds which have been established for many many years.
There may be a few who still winter in living vans but I expect they are
few these days.


Pikeys are a different kettle of fish altogether from both gypsies and
travellers.




Like a lot of definitions, including Gypsy, and Traveller, the term "Pikey"
has different meaning to different groups of people, and is constantly
evolving.
In the UK it is generally considered pretty offensive, given that its use is
intended primarily as an instrument of predudice and hate. Not that far
from the use of the word "Paki". (But of couse you have to take the
context and intent behind each actual use of the word rather than draw a
blanket conclusion as to its offensiveness).

I'm not sure how offensive "Carnie" is perceived in the US.


Gareth.


To the carnies themselves, probably not at all...maybe even a badge of

distinction. To others...well.

jak

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Roy L" <Roy.L@work.com> wrote in message
news:49773d29$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

"Ron" <ron@lunevalleyaudio.com> wrote in message
news:Cu6dnRRLubOXu-rUnZ2dnUVZ8h6dnZ2d@bt.com...
Arfa Daily wrote:
I guess the lottery machines are the best of all
worlds with a truly random pool of numbers on the balls, and a
one-at-a-time mechanical picking system. Hard to see how you could make
it any more random.

There`s quite a compelling conspiracy theory which says that the results
of the draw for the National Lottery are not entirely random.
I havent bothered looking very far into it myself but it`s been suggested
that numbers which for 'human reasons' are more likely to have been
heavily picked tend to come out less often that the average would
suggest. There are tables of statistics somewhere in teh interwebs I
think.

In the event of a rollover, ticket sales rocket, so it would be in the
organisers interests for rollovers to occur.

As I understand it we already know that the live TV broadcast isn't
actually live but transmitted some minutes behind the actual event.

Ron

Dont start me off on this one Ron! I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to
Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No replies.
Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the
meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change? Frightened of
getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe public does not
understand how easy it is to construct an apparently random ball selector
using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket
after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has
there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing the
jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy

It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a bit
obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and a whole
host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine
constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I think
that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and that the
smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~}

Arfa

 

[Roy L]

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:yMQdl.204975$iW1.126015@newsfe23.ams2...

"Roy L" <Roy.L@work.com> wrote in message
news:49773d29$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years
back to Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is
random. No replies. Then they changed the name of the game from
LOTTERY to LOTTO. Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real
reason for the change? Frightened of getting sued if the truth was
discovered?. Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is
to construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR or
embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can you not buy a ticket after
7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes until very late?. Has
there ever been a draw where there were dozens of people sharing
the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would
be a bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to
implement, and a whole host of people from the designers to the
programmers and machine constructors who would all need to keep
their mouths shut about it. I think that might be taking conspiracy
theories a bit far, really, and that the smell of fish is drifting
up the road from your local chippy ... !! d;~}

Arfa
Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the

operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty
contract for everyone in the know.
Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let
me examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still
am a member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of
7 numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually
average about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a
set of numbers that too many people are also using! The fish reference
was a bit tongue in cheek - although I dont live too far away from
Fleetwood!

Roy

 

[Arfa Daily]

"Roy L" <Roy.L@work.com> wrote in message
news:49782107$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:yMQdl.204975$iW1.126015@newsfe23.ams2...

"Roy L" <Roy.L@work.com> wrote in message
news:49773d29$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to
Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No
replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO.
Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change?
Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe
public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently
random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can
you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes
until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of
people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a
bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and
a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine
constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I
think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and
that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ...
!! d;~}

Arfa
Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the
operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty
contract for everyone in the know.
Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let me
examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still am a
member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of 7
numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually average
about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a set of numbers
that too many people are also using! The fish reference was a bit tongue
in cheek - although I dont live too far away from Fleetwood!

Roy

LOL ! I really don't think that you would manage to get as many people

involved as would be needed to keep it 'illegally' quiet - there's always
someone with high morals and ideals. In the 14 or 15 years that it's been
running, one of them would have surfaced by now, and blown the whistle. If
spies who sign the official secrets act on threat of imprisonment are
prepared to whistle-blow, I'm sure you would not manage to keep such a fraud
on the population secret for this long, given how many people past and
present would have to be in on it.

I actually had a look at the stats late last night, and the 'popularity' of
the numbers, draw-wise, ranges from around 150 I think it was, to 199, which
seems a fairly random-ish result. Statistics is a funny old business, and
you can show patterns in any set of reasonably complex data that spans 15
years. Governments do it all the time. Also, there seemed to be a number of
occasions listed where there *were* multiple winners. Given the extremely
long odds of winning even a fiver, let alone the jackpot, is it actually
that surprising that there is relatively few occasions on which there are
two or three winners, let alone dozens ? I actually think that your personal
syndicate stats of three or four wins of forty quid a year, are quite good !

If we accept that no technical or mechanical fiddles are going on with the
machines, ball sets, people involved etc, then I still think that the types
of machine used for the various lottery draws *have*, purely by the way they
operate, to be the most effective way of generating the closest thing to a
truly random number, a series of which must be pattern-free, other than
'natural' patterns which will always be there to be found in data, if you
look for them hard enough ...

Anyways, it's been an interesting discussion as always, that has now
wandered far from my original thoughts. Tomorrow, the unit in question will
go back top the shop which took it in, for them to inform its owner that
sadly, it is not what they thought it was ...

Anybody wants to add any other comments to this thread, I'm happy to keep
going. Thanks all.

Arfa

 

[William Sommerwerck]

Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.

 

[Roy L]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gl9p4m$l7d$1@news.motzarella.org...

Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see
their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors
or
electro-mechanical devices.


Here in the UK they are like an old oversize jukebox, the balls are

visible in the top part. We dont know what is in the bottom part. At
intervals a gate allows a ball to pop through into a chute. For all we
know, this gate only opens when the "right" ball is in the correct
position. I am pretty sure that I read somewhere that the balls are
"serviced" by an electronics company. Very strange if true. Perhaps I
should have taken this to another thread or even group, sorry about
the apparent hijack Arfa. Blame Ron, HE started it!
Roy

 

[jakdedert]

William Sommerwerck wrote:

Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.


While there's no such thing as a 'United States' lottery, many of the

various states have initiated such a contest. Each administers its own
system as it sees fit. I personally am ambiguous about the idea of
government getting into the gambling business. The tickets are sold
mostly in convenience stores, which often takes the 'convenience' out of
them, when you get in line behind someone substituting the State for his
dream trip to Vegas. OTOH, my own daughter is going to college with
some of the funds thus generated.

In Tennessee, the numbers were originally generated by mechanical means,
but last year they went to a system of computer-generation. I expect a
little research would reveal several different systems.

jak

 

[krw]

In article <h8Xdl.25332$MX.24528@newsfe04.ams2>,
arfa.daily@ntlworld.com says...>

"Roy L" <Roy.L@work.com> wrote in message
news:49782107$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...

"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:yMQdl.204975$iW1.126015@newsfe23.ams2...

"Roy L" <Roy.L@work.com> wrote in message
news:49773d29$1_1@glkas0286.greenlnk.net...
I am one of the people who no longer
believethe UK LOTTO is random. I sent several letters some years back to
Camelot requesting that they actually state that it is random. No
replies. Then they changed the name of the game from LOTTERY to LOTTO.
Check the meaning of lottery. What was the real reason for the change?
Frightened of getting sued if the truth was discovered?. Average Joe
public does not understand how easy it is to construct an apparently
random ball selector using OCR or embedded RFID. Why on Wednesdays can
you not buy a ticket after 7.30 when the draw is not announced sometimes
until very late?. Has there ever been a draw where there were dozens of
people sharing the jackpot?
I smell fish....

Roy


It's an interesting thought, but OCR or embedded RFID ? That would be a
bit obvious in terms of it requiring physical hardware to implement, and
a whole host of people from the designers to the programmers and machine
constructors who would all need to keep their mouths shut about it. I
think that might be taking conspiracy theories a bit far, really, and
that the smell of fish is drifting up the road from your local chippy ...
!! d;~}

Arfa
Hi Arfa, agreed - keeping the silence would be the hardest part of the
operation although it probably could be done with a stringent penalty
contract for everyone in the know.
Although I dont believe the lotto is random - they would have to let me
examine the internals of the draw machine to convince me - I still am a
member of a syndicate at work. We have been using the same set of 7
numbers "wheeled" for 6 years and never had a sniff. We usually average
about 3 to 4 wins of 40 quid per year. Maybe we are using a set of numbers
that too many people are also using! The fish reference was a bit tongue
in cheek - although I dont live too far away from Fleetwood!

Roy

LOL ! I really don't think that you would manage to get as many people
involved as would be needed to keep it 'illegally' quiet - there's always
someone with high morals and ideals. In the 14 or 15 years that it's been
running, one of them would have surfaced by now, and blown the whistle. If
spies who sign the official secrets act on threat of imprisonment are
prepared to whistle-blow, I'm sure you would not manage to keep such a fraud
on the population secret for this long, given how many people past and
present would have to be in on it.

Oh, but they have!. You think they're just another set of
conspiracy kooks. ;-)

<censored stuff too rational for the Usenet>

 

[Arfa Daily]

"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:gl9p4m$l7d$1@news.motzarella.org...

Average Joe public does not understand how easy it is to
construct an apparently random ball selector using OCR
or embedded RFID.

In the US, the ball selectors are wholly mechanical -- you can see their
operation through the clear walls. There is no place to hide sensors or
electro-mechanical devices.

That is the same with the National Lottery (nka "Lotto") machines here in
the UK. There are also about 10 or so different ones, and a similar amount
of ball sets. Both the machine and ball set are picked on the day. It used
to be done by a member of the public on the street just 'randomly' (ha!)
choosing an envelope from many, but I have no idea how they arrive at
machine and ball set these days.

Arfa