Things that go beep in the night....

[Don Y]

On 6/26/2023 3:01 PM, John S wrote:

On 6/26/2023 12:24 PM, Don Y wrote:
On 6/26/2023 5:52 AM, Liz Tuddenham wrote:
Don Y <blockedofcourse@foo.invalid> wrote:

[...]
If you can play music, then why can\'t you let ME decide what
music to play?  Do you really think I am going to recognize one odd,
uniquely created tune vs. another in a single device?  \"Is that
the song that tells me the oven is up to temperature

\"Steam heat\" from \"The Pyjama Game\".

-- or, that
the timer has expired?\"

\"Tick-Tock Tango\" played by Ray Martin & his Concert Orchestra.

It\'s a double-edged sword -- you want the user to decide what HE
thinks would be noticeable distinctions (based on whatever criteria
he\'s chosen).  Yet, you don\'t want to burden him with having to
create \"ringtones\", audition them, install them, etc.

But, this is only necessitated by the increases in device complexity.

New oven has a general purpose timer.  Lets you specify HOURS, *then*
minutes.  How the hell often does someone specify an hour or more??

You ever cook a turkey? A roast? A roast chicken? A leg of lamb? Kielbasa and
sauerkraut? Baked potato? Slow cooking with a dutch oven?

To mention just a few.

How *often* do you do those?

Cookies? Breads? Pancakes? Bacon? Boiled egg?

There\'s nothing wrong with having a 9:59 *capability*. But, if
you have to specify the number of hours AND minutes, it\'s
wasted effort. Just like it would be wasted effort to have
to specify a cook time.

Or, to specify a cook temperature and time -- and have the
timer start NOW instead of when the oven gets up
to temperature.

Turn dial quickly. Software senses high rate of speed and increments
minutes in large steps. Carry-out of minutes field to hours. If
you overshoot, spin dial backwards. For finer selection, reduce rate
at which you turn dial.

Just like mouse motion.

This is more intuitive than \"select hours, press ENTER, select minutes,
press ENTER (and force seconds to be :00 -- even if you are editing time
that remains on a running timer!)\"

Specifying hours on microwave (timer) is just text entry -- type
something wider than xx:xx and you\'re specifying some number of hours
and xx:xx minutes:seconds.

(note that the *cook* timer is a separate beast -- for both ovens!)
when I hear an annunciator, how do I know if the first oven has
timed out?  the second?  or the general purpose timer?  what if two
events occur in short order -- will the first be overwritten by
the second... because you opted to design with a SHARED display?

I\'ve not ye tried to let one timer preempt the \"song\" of an earlier
timer expiration.  Can I actually TELL that two timers have expired??

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 27-June-23 3:29 am, Don Y wrote:

Emergency vehicles have a similar problem -- which way is it
coming from?  So, their sirens now utter bursts of various
frequencies (some even sounding like really loud white noise).

Telephones in open-plan offices seemed[*] to have been designed
specifically to make it impossible to tell which phone was ringing
unless you made a good guess and confirmed it by putting your ear next
to the thing. The warble they used must be the worst possible signal for
determining direction.

Sylvia.

[*] Past tense only because it\'s been many years since I worked in an
open plan office.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/26/2023 7:50 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 27-June-23 3:29 am, Don Y wrote:

Emergency vehicles have a similar problem -- which way is it
coming from?  So, their sirens now utter bursts of various
frequencies (some even sounding like really loud white noise).

Telephones in open-plan offices seemed[*] to have been designed specifically to
make it impossible to tell which phone was ringing unless you made a good guess
and confirmed it by putting your ear next to the thing. The warble they used
must be the worst possible signal for determining direction.

In that environment, I think giving users \"choice\" would be a huge
mistake; folks would grumble about the \"choices\" other folks had
made that THEY have to tolerate. Like complaining about the
color your neighbors\' chose for their house...

Consider how annoying it is to hear someone\'s cell phone chime, burp,
ring, fart in a variety of different ways (\"Is that a phone call,
text, alert, etc.?\") when you\'re out amongst The Crowd...

[I am still amazed that people want to carry these devices with
them! /Pavlov/ would be proud! (For most folks, the phone exists
as a convenience for the *caller* while THEY are the called party!)]

Sylvia.

[*] Past tense only because it\'s been many years since I worked in an open plan
office.

 

[Sylvia Else]

On 27-June-23 3:23 pm, Don Y wrote:

On 6/26/2023 7:50 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 27-June-23 3:29 am, Don Y wrote:

Emergency vehicles have a similar problem -- which way is it
coming from?  So, their sirens now utter bursts of various
frequencies (some even sounding like really loud white noise).

Telephones in open-plan offices seemed[*] to have been designed
specifically to make it impossible to tell which phone was ringing
unless you made a good guess and confirmed it by putting your ear next
to the thing. The warble they used must be the worst possible signal
for determining direction.

I wasn\'t so much thinking in terms of giving users a choice, as using a
ring sound that was easier to locate. The apparently standard frequency
varying warble being hard to improve on if one actually wanted to defeat
direction finding.

Sylvia.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/26/2023 11:39 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:

On 27-June-23 3:23 pm, Don Y wrote:
On 6/26/2023 7:50 PM, Sylvia Else wrote:
On 27-June-23 3:29 am, Don Y wrote:

Emergency vehicles have a similar problem -- which way is it
coming from?  So, their sirens now utter bursts of various
frequencies (some even sounding like really loud white noise).

Telephones in open-plan offices seemed[*] to have been designed specifically
to make it impossible to tell which phone was ringing unless you made a good
guess and confirmed it by putting your ear next to the thing. The warble
they used must be the worst possible signal for determining direction.

I wasn\'t so much thinking in terms of giving users a choice, as using a ring
sound that was easier to locate. The apparently standard frequency varying
warble being hard to improve on if one actually wanted to defeat direction
finding.

Having distinctive rings *would* give you that localization ability;
if only to reduce it to \"That\'s Bob\'s phone\" (and you know where bob\'s
office is located).

Localization is actually a tricky problem. I have an aural interface
to my product that \"presents\" alerts in a 3D space around the listener
(user). Aural events are transitory; it\'s not like a popup window
that can persist (if an alert kept sounding, it would be an ALARM
and would be considered a nuisance: \"Yes, I *know* the printer is
out of paper/a new email message has arrived; etc. Shut the f*ck up!\"

But, if you can generate an annunciator (even if it\'s just a \"ding\")
and place it in the listener\'s aural field in a specific location
(azimuth and elevation), then the user can remember WHERE the sound
originated as a reminder of what it signified.

Doing this in the generic sense -- without listener-specific
HRTFs -- is challenging as you have no idea how *this* listener
will perceive the \"electrical signals\" routed to his ears.
(particularly if the source is perceived as originating INSIDE
his head!)

But, for the most part, annunciators/alarms are just intended to be
*heard*, not localized. And, often, not even *understood*! \"What
the hell does THAT sound signify? I\'ve never heard it before...\"

(when one of my UPSs starts complaining, it\'s a game of hide-and-seek
to try to figure out where -- which room and where in that room -- the
offender is located.)

 

[Martin Brown]

On 26/06/2023 20:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-06-26 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 07:25, Sylvia Else wrote:
Why do designers think that appliances with timer functions need to
go B*E*E*E*E*P when the time expires?

I have a particular dislike of the ones in fire alarms that invariably
start going beep every 5 minutes and very loudly at 4 in the morning
when temperature and battery terminal voltage is at its lowest.

Most irritating recent one was our house burglar alarm which started
doing the same thing and then the control panel would helpfully start
beeping to say \"low battery/battery fail\". You could reset it but it
would do the same thing again the next night and again until the
service engineer was able to come and swap the battery (about 2 weeks).

It found itself with heavy acoustic damping foam taped over the front.

I know the system has quite sophisticated anti-tamper features or I
would have swapped it myself (and I haven\'t been able to pinch the
engineering access code).

I\'m not sure why it reacts so badly to backup battery failure - the
battery really only comes into play if the mains supply fails.

If a thief intends to enter, he will cut off the mains, then wait a day
before entering.

You can\'t really stop a professional thief but you can certainly
encourage them to go next door where the alarm is less of a challenge.

It wouldn\'t do him any good at all with my alarm system. The standby
current is remarkably low - he would need to wait at least a week
(assuming the battery wasn\'t almost flat - which it was last month).

I don\'t think the very hot weather did it any good at all.

--
Martin Brown

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-27 11:11, Martin Brown wrote:

On 26/06/2023 20:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-26 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 07:25, Sylvia Else wrote:
Why do designers think that appliances with timer functions need to
go B*E*E*E*E*P when the time expires?

I have a particular dislike of the ones in fire alarms that
invariably start going beep every 5 minutes and very loudly at 4 in
the morning when temperature and battery terminal voltage is at its
lowest.

Most irritating recent one was our house burglar alarm which started
doing the same thing and then the control panel would helpfully start
beeping to say \"low battery/battery fail\". You could reset it but it
would do the same thing again the next night and again until the
service engineer was able to come and swap the battery (about 2 weeks).

It found itself with heavy acoustic damping foam taped over the front.

I know the system has quite sophisticated anti-tamper features or I
would have swapped it myself (and I haven\'t been able to pinch the
engineering access code).

I\'m not sure why it reacts so badly to backup battery failure - the
battery really only comes into play if the mains supply fails.

If a thief intends to enter, he will cut off the mains, then wait a
day before entering.

You can\'t really stop a professional thief but you can certainly
encourage them to go next door where the alarm is less of a challenge.

Yes, that\'s why I have one.

My beach place was entered 3 times; stolen stuff was minimal: a fan, a
cheap microwave, my father\'s binoculars. They didn\'t even bother with
the small and heavy tube TV. No damages to doors or anything. When they
left, they left the door open, and I didn\'t know for a month.

So I invested in a connected alarm, and it stopped. Now the nuisance are
the batteries. The smoke alarm which they convinced me to install has a
loud beep every now and then when the battery is down, and I don\'t dare
to change it my self. They tell me I can do it myself, they even mail me
the battery, but I refuse, I say I\'m scared of heights. It is not only
the ladder, I would fall one level more because it is in the stair well.


--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 26/06/2023 18:29, Don Y wrote:

On 6/26/2023 5:35 AM, ABLE1 wrote:
On 6/26/2023 2:25 AM, Sylvia Else wrote:
Why do designers think that appliances with timer functions need to
go B*E*E*E*E*P when the time expires?

Having previously amputated the beeper from a pedestal fan that I\'d
inadvertently put into timer mode, and which woke me in the early
hours of the morning, I\'ve found a humidifier that does the same
thing. I hadn\'t intended to put that into timer mode [*] either.

I\'ve performed a beepectomy[**] on it now, so that won\'t happen again.

And why do these things have to be so loud? The fan used to beep
every time a setting was changed, and was loud enough that I was
hesitant to make changes for fear of waking people sleeping in other
rooms who might reasonably have thought it was a smoke alarm.

Sylvia.

[*] The ease of putting things into unintended modes, and the
difficulty of knowing which mode an appliance is in without reference
to a manual, is another issue.

[**] Spell checker says that isn\'t a word. Well, it should be.


A number of years ago I had a customer call me to report a \"beep\"!!
She could not locate and suspected it was a smoke detector.

Since I am deaf at high frequencies I decided to take my wife along.
The three of of around the house and me up a ladder trying to find
the \"beep\" >>> 60 second delay <<< \"beep\" for 45 minutes.  Finally
found out that the Dishwasher Door was OPEN!!!  End of my day!!

Catch 22.  You don\'t want a sound that is persistent/of long duration
(cuz it would be annoying).

But, beeps are hard to localize.

Indeed they are and infrequent enough to be a PITA. Especially at 4am
which is when they tend to start doing it for low battery!

A sharp click is much easier to get a bearing on since our eat or be
eaten evolutionary systems and hearing are geared to turning to face a
predator or prey that makes the mistake of snapping a twig.

On the other hand if you make warning beeps too annoying you get (at
least) two major modes of failure along similar lines.

Silencing the warning alarm the wrong way (expensive mistakes) eg.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66028401

Leaving the real problem to get worse whilst you figure out how to
switch the damned alarms and klaxons off to be able to think(TMI). They
spent something like the first 15 minutes trying to silence alarms!

I just brought a neighbor home from the hospital.  \"What\'s that
beeping sound?\"
- smoke detector/CO detector (low battery)
- kitchen timer
- refrigerator door open
- UPS
- medical instrument
- alarm system (reminding you to disarm)
..

[It\'s not my house so even more challenging to think of what it
MIGHT be]

Emergency vehicles have a similar problem -- which way is it
coming from?  So, their sirens now utter bursts of various
frequencies (some even sounding like really loud white noise).

[A fair bit of published research on the subject]

A chirp is better to locate, but many cars have sufficiently good sound
insulation these days that it can be a real challenge to hear and locate
emergency vehicles until they are really quite close to you.

--
Martin Brown

 

[Don Y]

On 6/27/2023 2:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 26/06/2023 20:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-26 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 07:25, Sylvia Else wrote:
Why do designers think that appliances with timer functions need to go
B*E*E*E*E*P when the time expires?

I have a particular dislike of the ones in fire alarms that invariably start
going beep every 5 minutes and very loudly at 4 in the morning when
temperature and battery terminal voltage is at its lowest.

Most irritating recent one was our house burglar alarm which started doing
the same thing and then the control panel would helpfully start beeping to
say \"low battery/battery fail\". You could reset it but it would do the same
thing again the next night and again until the service engineer was able to
come and swap the battery (about 2 weeks).

It found itself with heavy acoustic damping foam taped over the front.

I know the system has quite sophisticated anti-tamper features or I would
have swapped it myself (and I haven\'t been able to pinch the engineering
access code).

I\'m not sure why it reacts so badly to backup battery failure - the battery
really only comes into play if the mains supply fails.

If a thief intends to enter, he will cut off the mains, then wait a day
before entering.

You can\'t really stop a professional thief but you can certainly encourage them
to go next door where the alarm is less of a challenge.

I had (I assume she is long dead) an aunt who was very vain about her
costly possessions. Among them a collection of furs and jewelry.
Instead of storing the furs at a furrier, she kept them at home
in a closet.

One day, she came home to find the side door of the house removed from
its frame (forcibly) and the closet located immediately inside emptied
of its contents.

Alarm? By the time anyone DID anything about the alarm, the thieves
had driven off (in the vehicle that they\'d used to pull the door from
its frame!)

[This is now relatively mainstream with ATM thefts; a thief uses a
STOLEN vehicle to smash the storefront and just hauls the entire
ATM away]

It wouldn\'t do him any good at all with my alarm system. The standby current is
remarkably low - he would need to wait at least a week (assuming the battery
wasn\'t almost flat - which it was last month).

Trip the alarm. Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
Trip the alarm. Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
...
When folks have \"tuned out\" from the FALSE alarms, commit the crime.

> I don\'t think the very hot weather did it any good at all.

Locks and structures, in general, really aren\'t designed to thwart a
determined adversary. The antagonist has more degrees of freedom in
his attack surface than the defender has resources with which to defend.

We designed the first \"island terminal\" (an \"exposed\" device that
lets purchasers deposit money to buy gasoline, unattended) for ARCO
many years ago. The kit was tiny -- a custom SBC with a display,
a few buttons and a low speed/party-line comms network connecting
to the cashier (who would optionally authorize sales).

All this in a large, refrigerator sized steel box made from 1/4\" plate!

Of course, the size and durability of the enclosure wasn\'t required for the
functionality but, rather, to prevent folks from ramming it and stealing
its content$!

Slot machines are typically sited on pedestal bases. The base contains
the \"overflow\" coins -- cash that has been deposited above which payouts
will be needed. A hole in the bottom lets them fall THROUGH the slot
and into this storage space.

The hopper *in* the slot can be subverted and tricked into dispensing all
of the coins contained within. But, there\'s no way for the \"overflow\"
coins to similarly be accessed! And, \"staff\" that are granted access to the
overflow can be different than those granted access tot he internals of
the machine!

 

[Don Y]

On 6/27/2023 2:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-06-27 11:11, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 20:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-26 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 07:25, Sylvia Else wrote:
Why do designers think that appliances with timer functions need to go
B*E*E*E*E*P when the time expires?

I have a particular dislike of the ones in fire alarms that invariably
start going beep every 5 minutes and very loudly at 4 in the morning when
temperature and battery terminal voltage is at its lowest.

Most irritating recent one was our house burglar alarm which started doing
the same thing and then the control panel would helpfully start beeping to
say \"low battery/battery fail\". You could reset it but it would do the same
thing again the next night and again until the service engineer was able to
come and swap the battery (about 2 weeks).

It found itself with heavy acoustic damping foam taped over the front.

I know the system has quite sophisticated anti-tamper features or I would
have swapped it myself (and I haven\'t been able to pinch the engineering
access code).

I\'m not sure why it reacts so badly to backup battery failure - the battery
really only comes into play if the mains supply fails.

If a thief intends to enter, he will cut off the mains, then wait a day
before entering.

You can\'t really stop a professional thief but you can certainly encourage
them to go next door where the alarm is less of a challenge.

Yes, that\'s why I have one.

This only works if folks KNOW that you have one.

Wasn\'t it a common ploy to put \"fake alarm bells\" on the side of
buildings to convince would-be theives that the house was fully alarmed?

My beach place was entered 3 times; stolen stuff was minimal: a fan, a cheap
microwave, my father\'s binoculars. They didn\'t even bother with the small and
heavy tube TV. No damages to doors or anything. When they left, they left the
door open, and I didn\'t know for a month.

One of the organizations I work with has been routinely \"vandalized\".
Little of value is stolen. But, the fence is routinely cut (which
requires mending -- at some cost) as well as police reports, etc.

So, the material losses are often far outweighed by \"opportunity costs\".

So I invested in a connected alarm, and it stopped. Now the nuisance are the
batteries. The smoke alarm which they convinced me to install has a loud beep
every now and then when the battery is down, and I don\'t dare to change it my
self. They tell me I can do it myself, they even mail me the battery, but I
refuse, I say I\'m scared of heights. It is not only the ladder, I would fall
one level more because it is in the stair well.

Here, all new installations must be mains-powered.

*BUT*, must also be battery-backed! (as a fire could
start from an electrical short, etc.)

Some vendors are now selling devices with \"10 year\"
batteries -- that being the lifetime of the product.
This simplifies maintenance... just throw the thing away
(but, you still have to get it down and put the new one
up -- just less freequently!)

 

[Don Y]

On 6/27/2023 6:19 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

A number of years ago I had a customer call me to report a \"beep\"!!
She could not locate and suspected it was a smoke detector.

Since I am deaf at high frequencies I decided to take my wife along.
The three of of around the house and me up a ladder trying to find
the \"beep\" >>> 60 second delay <<< \"beep\" for 45 minutes.  Finally
found out that the Dishwasher Door was OPEN!!!  End of my day!!

Catch 22.  You don\'t want a sound that is persistent/of long duration
(cuz it would be annoying).

But, beeps are hard to localize.

Indeed they are and infrequent enough to be a PITA. Especially at 4am which is
when they tend to start doing it for low battery!

And, if they can be easily silenced, they WILL be. Thus defeating their
purpose. (supposedly, a large percentage of home fires find smoke
detectors that are inoperative -- likely the battery was removed with
the PLAN of replacing it... but that never happened!)

We take a proactive approach and just replace them all on New
Year\'s Eve (*any* day could suffice).

A sharp click is much easier to get a bearing on since our eat or be eaten
evolutionary systems and hearing are geared to turning to face a predator or
prey that makes the mistake of snapping a twig.

Abrupt onset, broadband sound is supposedly the best for \"alarms\".
And, older folks have a harder time with localizing.

Here, emergency vehicles have a strobe light that signals the
traffic lights that it is approaching. Each light then overrides it
programming to grant passage to traffic coming from that direction
(o the traffic ahead of the emergency vehicle can clear the
intersection AND so the emergency vehicle can pass undeterred).

A side-effect of this is a strobe mounted on the traffic light
also begins flashing. So, you know there is an emergency
vehicle approaching the intersection, even if you don\'t know
the direction of its approach!

If your light turns red, then you know the vehicle is approaching
from a cross street.

If your light turns green, look ahead and behind to see whether
it\'s going or coming -- but plan on getting out of the way ASAP,
regardless. (such vehicles will often cross into oncoming traffic
if the folks in front of it are too stupid to get out of the way!)

On the other hand if you make warning beeps too annoying you get (at least) two
major modes of failure along similar lines.

Silencing the warning alarm the wrong way (expensive mistakes) eg.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66028401

Leaving the real problem to get worse whilst you figure out how to switch the
damned alarms and klaxons off to be able to think(TMI). They spent something
like the first 15 minutes trying to silence alarms!

It\'s SUPPOSED to be a temporary event. Live with it!

I just brought a neighbor home from the hospital.  \"What\'s that
beeping sound?\"
- smoke detector/CO detector (low battery)
- kitchen timer
- refrigerator door open
- UPS
- medical instrument
- alarm system (reminding you to disarm)
..

[It\'s not my house so even more challenging to think of what it
MIGHT be]

Emergency vehicles have a similar problem -- which way is it
coming from?  So, their sirens now utter bursts of various
frequencies (some even sounding like really loud white noise).

[A fair bit of published research on the subject]

A chirp is better to locate, but many cars have sufficiently good sound
insulation these days

...as well as sound systems.. (ever seen someone wearing earbuds while
driving??)

that it can be a real challenge to hear and locate
emergency vehicles until they are really quite close to you.

\"Situational Awareness\"

I heard a fire engine approaching from behind, last week.
Our streets are typically 3 lanes in each direction with
separate left and right turn lanes at intersections.

Of course, *every* lane typically is occupied.

I pulled into the left lane and stopped, on-a-dime -- leaving
a good 100 ft ahead of me, free of vehicles, to the traffic
light. The drivers in the other lanes were brain dead and
just SAT at the light (blocking passage).

I could almost hear the driver mentally thanking me as he
swerved into the left lane in front of me to drive THROUGH
the intersection, around the mindless masses sitting there!

Yes, you\'re supposed to pull over. And, if you can\'t then go
*through* the intersection to do so instead of just sitting
there obstructing progress!

Idiots.

 

[RichD]

On June 27, Don Y wrote:

You can\'t really stop a professional thief but you can certainly encourage
them to go next door where the alarm is less of a challenge.

This only works if folks KNOW that you have one.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j83bGaauRXw

--
Rich

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-27 15:39, Don Y wrote:

On 6/27/2023 2:49 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-27 11:11, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 20:05, Carlos E.R. wrote:
On 2023-06-26 09:58, Martin Brown wrote:
On 26/06/2023 07:25, Sylvia Else wrote:
Why do designers think that appliances with timer functions need
to go B*E*E*E*E*P when the time expires?

I have a particular dislike of the ones in fire alarms that
invariably start going beep every 5 minutes and very loudly at 4 in
the morning when temperature and battery terminal voltage is at its
lowest.

Most irritating recent one was our house burglar alarm which
started doing the same thing and then the control panel would
helpfully start beeping to say \"low battery/battery fail\". You
could reset it but it would do the same thing again the next night
and again until the service engineer was able to come and swap the
battery (about 2 weeks).

It found itself with heavy acoustic damping foam taped over the front.

I know the system has quite sophisticated anti-tamper features or I
would have swapped it myself (and I haven\'t been able to pinch the
engineering access code).

I\'m not sure why it reacts so badly to backup battery failure - the
battery really only comes into play if the mains supply fails.

If a thief intends to enter, he will cut off the mains, then wait a
day before entering.

You can\'t really stop a professional thief but you can certainly
encourage them to go next door where the alarm is less of a challenge.

Yes, that\'s why I have one.

This only works if folks KNOW that you have one.

Wasn\'t it a common ploy to put \"fake alarm bells\" on the side of
buildings to convince would-be theives that the house was fully alarmed?

Here it is not an alarm bell, but a plate. Most places do not have any
box outside, except businesses. It is a requirement they must be
remotely controlled with someone supervising 24*7. It is not allowed to
just ring a bell outside, as it disturbs the neighbours if nobody
switches it off.


But yes, some houses have faked plates.

My beach place was entered 3 times; stolen stuff was minimal: a fan, a
cheap microwave, my father\'s binoculars. They didn\'t even bother with
the small and heavy tube TV. No damages to doors or anything. When
they left, they left the door open, and I didn\'t know for a month.

One of the organizations I work with has been routinely \"vandalized\".
Little of value is stolen.  But, the fence is routinely cut (which
requires mending -- at some cost) as well as police reports, etc.

So, the material losses are often far outweighed by \"opportunity costs\".

No, they broke nothing. The only thing I had to do was mop the floor
from their muddy footprints.

So I invested in a connected alarm, and it stopped. Now the nuisance
are the batteries. The smoke alarm which they convinced me to install
has a loud beep every now and then when the battery is down, and I
don\'t dare to change it my self. They tell me I can do it myself, they
even mail me the battery, but I refuse, I say I\'m scared of heights.
It is not only the ladder, I would fall one level more because it is
in the stair well.

Here, all new installations must be mains-powered.

The control unit is mains powered, but the sensors are not. No
requirement to power the sensors with mains, fortunately.

*BUT*, must also be battery-backed!  (as a fire could
start from an electrical short, etc.)

Some vendors are now selling devices with \"10 year\"
batteries -- that being the lifetime of the product.

I like that idea.

This simplifies maintenance... just throw the thing away
(but, you still have to get it down and put the new one
up -- just less freequently!)

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-27 16:02, Don Y wrote:
> On 6/27/2023 6:19 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

....

Indeed they are and infrequent enough to be a PITA. Especially at 4am
which is when they tend to start doing it for low battery!

And, if they can be easily silenced, they WILL be.  Thus defeating their
purpose.  (supposedly, a large percentage of home fires find smoke
detectors that are inoperative -- likely the battery was removed with
the PLAN of replacing it... but that never happened!)

We take a proactive approach and just replace them all on New
Year\'s Eve (*any* day could suffice).

Hum. Good 9 volts batteries have a cost.

....

Here, emergency vehicles have a strobe light that signals the
traffic lights that it is approaching.  Each light then overrides it
programming to grant passage to traffic coming from that direction
(o the traffic ahead of the emergency vehicle can clear the
intersection AND so the emergency vehicle can pass undeterred).

A side-effect of this is a strobe mounted on the traffic light
also begins flashing.  So, you know there is an emergency
vehicle approaching the intersection, even if you don\'t know
the direction of its approach!

If your light turns red, then you know the vehicle is approaching
from a cross street.

If your light turns green, look ahead and behind to see whether
it\'s going or coming -- but plan on getting out of the way ASAP,
regardless.  (such vehicles will often cross into oncoming traffic
if the folks in front of it are too stupid to get out of the way!)

Nice. Not sure we have that in my city.

On the other hand if you make warning beeps too annoying you get (at
least) two major modes of failure along similar lines.

Silencing the warning alarm the wrong way (expensive mistakes) eg.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66028401

Leaving the real problem to get worse whilst you figure out how to
switch the damned alarms and klaxons off to be able to think(TMI).
They spent something like the first 15 minutes trying to silence alarms!

It\'s SUPPOSED to be a temporary event.  Live with it!

A beep can drive people nuts, instead of attending the possible actual
emergency.

....

A chirp is better to locate, but many cars have sufficiently good
sound insulation these days

..as well as sound systems.. (ever seen someone wearing earbuds while
driving??)

That\'s a fine here. 200€ and 3 points, even if they are not connected.

that it can be a real challenge to hear and locate emergency vehicles
until they are really quite close to you.

\"Situational Awareness\"

I heard a fire engine approaching from behind, last week.
Our streets are typically 3 lanes in each direction with
separate left and right turn lanes at intersections.

Of course, *every* lane typically is occupied.

I pulled into the left lane and stopped, on-a-dime -- leaving
a good 100 ft ahead of me, free of vehicles, to the traffic
light.  The drivers in the other lanes were brain dead and
just SAT at the light (blocking passage).

I could almost hear the driver mentally thanking me as he
swerved into the left lane in front of me to drive THROUGH
the intersection, around the mindless masses sitting there!

Yes, you\'re supposed to pull over.  And, if you can\'t then go
*through* the intersection to do so instead of just sitting
there obstructing progress!

Idiots.

Some countries have rules about which lane to clear. Don\'t think, just
clear it.

Going through the intersection in red to make space for the emergency
vehicle coming behind is dangerous. Sometimes, after the ambulance
passes by, I have difficulties moving again because the other, dumb,
drivers impede my moving.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Martin Brown]

On 27/06/2023 14:29, Don Y wrote:

On 6/27/2023 2:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

It wouldn\'t do him any good at all with my alarm system. The standby
current is remarkably low - he would need to wait at least a week
(assuming the battery wasn\'t almost flat - which it was last month).

Trip the alarm.  Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
Trip the alarm.  Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
..
When folks have \"tuned out\" from the FALSE alarms, commit the crime.

About then the police will arrive.

The only time it was sort of triggered in anger was when a farmer hedge
flailed the telephone interconnect box and all monitored local alarm
circuits went dead simultaneously as did all the phone lines.

Police arrived in about 15 minutes whilst I was cutting the grass and
asked if I was OK and why I hadn\'t answered the phone. A quick check in
the house showed no dial tone and alarm in phone line disconnected mode.

They asked directions to the pub which was next on their list.

It took BT the best part of two weeks working solid with signal tracers
for them to reconnect the random coloured spaghetti that resulted and
the truncated and sometimes double spliced copper phone lines were never
quite the same afterwards. I\'m on optical fibre now.

Locks and structures, in general, really aren\'t designed to thwart a
determined adversary.  The antagonist has more degrees of freedom in
his attack surface than the defender has resources with which to defend.

I know how to beat my alarm as do the real pros but it would be way more
effort than the meagre pickings here would justify.

--
Martin Brown

 

[Carlos E.R.]

On 2023-06-28 13:17, Martin Brown wrote:

On 27/06/2023 14:29, Don Y wrote:
On 6/27/2023 2:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

....

I know how to beat my alarm as do the real pros but it would be way more
effort than the meagre pickings here would justify.

On my type of alarm, they use inhibitors. They block communications
between sensors and control unit. Some units can detect the inhibitors
and alert headquarters (they claim), so the bad guys could also inhibit
mobile phone connections.

Even in that case, when they leave the alarm would alert me that the
door is open, which is enough for me to go there and close it again. I
have nothing of value worth stealing. I had an oil painting, but they
would not recognize it, and it is easy to identify it when trying to
sell it (nor is it worth enough to bother) :-D

Of course, they could steal the fridge (some do), but that\'s a sweat
that most thieves will decline, they go for small things like jewels or
money (fat chance). Maybe expensive sound or video equipment.

--
Cheers, Carlos.

 

[Don Y]

On 6/28/2023 4:17 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

On 27/06/2023 14:29, Don Y wrote:
On 6/27/2023 2:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

It wouldn\'t do him any good at all with my alarm system. The standby current
is remarkably low - he would need to wait at least a week (assuming the
battery wasn\'t almost flat - which it was last month).

Trip the alarm.  Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
Trip the alarm.  Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
..
When folks have \"tuned out\" from the FALSE alarms, commit the crime.

About then the police will arrive.

If multiple \"false alarms\", the police (here) can fine you.
ISTR that an \"automated alarm\" must ring to a \"call center\"
and THEY must call the police. So, a recurring service charge.

[Car alarms frequently are falsely triggered so no one really
pays any attention to them]

The only time it was sort of triggered in anger was when a farmer hedge flailed
the telephone interconnect box and all monitored local alarm circuits went dead
simultaneously as did all the phone lines.

Police arrived in about 15 minutes whilst I was cutting the grass and asked if
I was OK and why I hadn\'t answered the phone. A quick check in the house showed
no dial tone and alarm in phone line disconnected mode.

They asked directions to the pub which was next on their list.

It took BT the best part of two weeks working solid with signal tracers for
them to reconnect the random coloured spaghetti that resulted and the truncated
and sometimes double spliced copper phone lines were never quite the same
afterwards. I\'m on optical fibre now.

My uncle used to \"manage\" a CO, here. He took me for a tour of the
facility, one time, when younger.

Four things stood out in my mind:
- a room in which all of the pairs appear to be terminated on
something akin to pushdown blocks. Connecting new service required
locating a specific pair and wiring it accordingly. Apparently
a mind-numbing job (that paid well!)
- the room in the basement where all of the pairs entered the CO
(big, thick bundles)
- the brick shed out back that housed the jet engine powered
backup generator
- the talk \"battery\" (and ring generator)

I, of course, asked \"What happens if you have a fire in one
of those wire rooms...?\"

I guess the idea is too horrific to consider!

Locks and structures, in general, really aren\'t designed to thwart a
determined adversary.  The antagonist has more degrees of freedom in
his attack surface than the defender has resources with which to defend.

I know how to beat my alarm as do the real pros but it would be way more effort
than the meagre pickings here would justify.

There are always \"riper pickings\". The trick is knowing where.

A neighbor had just moved in and locked himself, wife and
infant newborn out on a Sunday. High temperature meant
they weren\'t going to be safe out there (so they came and
stayed with us: \"Hi, I\'m Don...\"). Locksmith wouldn\'t come
out until \"after the game\" (college ball is really big, here;
stores will set a TV on a shopping card for patrons to watch!)

We wandered over to his place. He was hoping to \"card\" the
front door (that won\'t work).

I looked around the house checking windows and sliding doors.
Walked back home to fetch a screwdriver. Removed *one*
screw from the kitchen window (that held the center stile
in place). Removed the stile. And the sliding pane.
Then, asked him if he wanted to lift *me* into the window
or if he would prefer I lift *him* (the window being 4 ft off
the ground)...

The look on his face was priceless: Christ, this guy just broke
into my house in 3 minutes... and he lives next door! I probably
don\'t want him as an enemy! :>

 

[Don Y]

On 6/28/2023 2:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-06-27 16:02, Don Y wrote:
On 6/27/2023 6:19 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

Indeed they are and infrequent enough to be a PITA. Especially at 4am which
is when they tend to start doing it for low battery!

And, if they can be easily silenced, they WILL be.  Thus defeating their
purpose.  (supposedly, a large percentage of home fires find smoke
detectors that are inoperative -- likely the battery was removed with
the PLAN of replacing it... but that never happened!)

We take a proactive approach and just replace them all on New
Year\'s Eve (*any* day could suffice).

Hum. Good 9 volts batteries have a cost.

<shrug> One (per sensor) per year doesn\'t seem to be too
prohibitively expensive. The problem is remembering to replace
it before it TELLS you that it needs to be replaced.

A name-brand alkaline will usually power it for more than a year.

Here, emergency vehicles have a strobe light that signals the
traffic lights that it is approaching.  Each light then overrides it
programming to grant passage to traffic coming from that direction
(o the traffic ahead of the emergency vehicle can clear the
intersection AND so the emergency vehicle can pass undeterred).

A side-effect of this is a strobe mounted on the traffic light
also begins flashing.  So, you know there is an emergency
vehicle approaching the intersection, even if you don\'t know
the direction of its approach!

If your light turns red, then you know the vehicle is approaching
from a cross street.

If your light turns green, look ahead and behind to see whether
it\'s going or coming -- but plan on getting out of the way ASAP,
regardless.  (such vehicles will often cross into oncoming traffic
if the folks in front of it are too stupid to get out of the way!)

Nice. Not sure we have that in my city.

For folks who aren\'t paying attention to the flashing \"acknowledgement\"
strobe atop the traffic signal, they just think the light has turned
green to allow *their* progress. But, their being in motion is better
than \"parked\" at the intersection.

On the other hand if you make warning beeps too annoying you get (at least)
two major modes of failure along similar lines.

Silencing the warning alarm the wrong way (expensive mistakes) eg.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-66028401

Leaving the real problem to get worse whilst you figure out how to switch
the damned alarms and klaxons off to be able to think(TMI). They spent
something like the first 15 minutes trying to silence alarms!

It\'s SUPPOSED to be a temporary event.  Live with it!

A beep can drive people nuts, instead of attending the possible actual emergency.

Let intellect override emotion. You wouldn\'t sit around trying to
silence an indication of fire/personal danger. Just react to it and
get the hell out!

A chirp is better to locate, but many cars have sufficiently good sound
insulation these days

..as well as sound systems.. (ever seen someone wearing earbuds while
driving??)

That\'s a fine here. 200€ and 3 points, even if they are not connected.

None, AFAICT, here. People are often seen wearing BT earpieces to
interface with their phones (it is illegal to \"hold\" your phone while
driving; not everyone has a vehicle with built-in BT phone interface
so those without rely on earpieces).

Other folks will wear stereo earbuds to listen to music, etc.

that it can be a real challenge to hear and locate emergency vehicles until
they are really quite close to you.

\"Situational Awareness\"

I heard a fire engine approaching from behind, last week.
Our streets are typically 3 lanes in each direction with
separate left and right turn lanes at intersections.

Of course, *every* lane typically is occupied.

I pulled into the left lane and stopped, on-a-dime -- leaving
a good 100 ft ahead of me, free of vehicles, to the traffic
light.  The drivers in the other lanes were brain dead and
just SAT at the light (blocking passage).

I could almost hear the driver mentally thanking me as he
swerved into the left lane in front of me to drive THROUGH
the intersection, around the mindless masses sitting there!

Yes, you\'re supposed to pull over.  And, if you can\'t then go
*through* the intersection to do so instead of just sitting
there obstructing progress!

Idiots.

Some countries have rules about which lane to clear. Don\'t think, just clear it.

Here, you are to \"pull over\" -- usually to the right. The point is
for you to stop moving and become a \"predicatable obstacle\" instead
of \"traffic\".

Our roads, in town, are typically 3 or 4 lanes in each direction,
so expecting everyone to find a spot along one side would be
impractical.

A \"divided\" roadway (something with a barrier between different
directions of traffic) only requires the folks on the side
that the vehicle is traveling to respond thusly. Absent
such a barrier (e.g., median strip), all lanes must cease motion.

In cases without such a median, the emergency vehicle (police
or fire) will freely cross onto the other side (direction)
of the street to navigate around traffic and obstructions.
Usually, with a fair bit of caution as they expect some
idiots to fail to respond appropriately.

In cases *with* such a median, there are half as many lanes
that the vehicle can navigate so doubly important to get
over to the side.

Going through the intersection in red to make space for the emergency vehicle
coming behind is dangerous. Sometimes, after the ambulance passes by, I have
difficulties moving again because the other, dumb, drivers impede my moving.

Hence the reason for the strobe-activated signal. When each traffic
signal *independantly* sees the strobe, it halts cross-traffic and
enables traffic in the direction from which the vehicle approaches.
This gives folks stopped at the intersection in its way a means
of moving forwards (even if they haven\'t yet realized a vehicle
is approaching) and inhibits cross traffic from interfering
with that progress.

It also allows cross traaffic that has cleared the intersection to
keep moving AWAY from the intersection. So, when the vehicle
approaches the intersection, it won\'t be obstructed by traffic
to the left or right on the cross street.

But, many folks are not particularly observant. Or, don\'t
realize the simple rule to determine the direction of the
approaching vehicle and will be looking in every direction
for it (\"Hey, if you are being stopped by the signal light,
there\'s nothing that you need to do! If you\'re not being
stopped, get the hell out of the way -- regardless of whether
the vehicle is coming from behind you or towards you!\")

 

[Don Y]

On 6/28/2023 4:47 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-06-28 13:17, Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/06/2023 14:29, Don Y wrote:
On 6/27/2023 2:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

...

I know how to beat my alarm as do the real pros but it would be way more
effort than the meagre pickings here would justify.

On my type of alarm, they use inhibitors. They block communications between
sensors and control unit. Some units can detect the inhibitors and alert
headquarters (they claim), so the bad guys could also inhibit mobile phone
connections.

... or wired (land line) connections.

I deliberately decided against wirelsss comms for all of my automation, here
for this reason (as well as bandwidth limitations). Even if comms aren\'t
spoofed, they can be blocked/corrupted (DoS).

As I said elsewhere:

Trip the alarm. Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
Trip the alarm. Wait for someone to respond -- and find nothing remiss.
...

If I can do this sitting in a car across the street or in some other
way that doesn\'t require my \"unexplained presence\" on the property,
all the better!

In school, one of the computer centers was heavily protected.
So, slip a balloon under a door. Fill with helium and let it
float around to be detected by the motion detectors.

Eventually, save the helium and just let air act as a
propellant to power the deflating balloon around the room.
Meanwhile, you\'re long gone.

Even in that case, when they leave the alarm would alert me that the door is
open, which is enough for me to go there and close it again. I have nothing of
value worth stealing. I had an oil painting, but they would not recognize it,
and it is easy to identify it when trying to sell it (nor is it worth enough to
bother) :-D

What if they decided to \"squat\" in the place? And, built a small fire
for warmth -- using lumber from furnishings? Which then enveloped
the entire place?

[Homeless encampments are often discouraged for similar reasons.
THEY have nothing invested in their current site so no real
NEED to keep it safe]

The motives of these folks are often confusing to rational people.

We stopped allowing (often homeless) people to use the restroom at
one facility because they would literally spread *shit* on the walls!
What value that?? Now you don\'t have a place to shit! <frown>

Of course, they could steal the fridge (some do), but that\'s a sweat that most
thieves will decline, they go for small things like jewels or money (fat
chance). Maybe expensive sound or video equipment.

Access to power, phone, heat/shelter, etc.?

 

[Martin Brown]

On 28/06/2023 12:47, Carlos E.R. wrote:

On 2023-06-28 13:17, Martin Brown wrote:
On 27/06/2023 14:29, Don Y wrote:
On 6/27/2023 2:11 AM, Martin Brown wrote:

...

I know how to beat my alarm as do the real pros but it would be way
more effort than the meagre pickings here would justify.

On my type of alarm, they use inhibitors. They block communications
between sensors and control unit. Some units can detect the inhibitors
and alert headquarters (they claim), so the bad guys could also inhibit
mobile phone connections.

My alarm is old school all hidden hard wired as required (at the time)
by the insurers. Wireless kit has come on a very long way since then.

Of course, they could steal the fridge (some do), but that\'s a sweat
that most thieves will decline, they go for small things like jewels or
money (fat chance). Maybe expensive sound or video equipment.

Back when I was a student someone broke into my car and left 50p that
fell out of their pocket whilst trying to start it unsuccessfully. Car
keys back then were so bad that almost anything would open a car door.

My anti-theft technique was simple but effective. It took more than just
a key that fitted to start the car. So they gave up.

--
Martin Brown