Start your own Fabless Semiconductor Company

liger · Jul 18, 2005

Listen to the Triad Alliance Podcast (TAP), www.triadsemi.com, for
news, interviews, low-cost & free tools, access to free analog and
digital IP, and ways to promote your mixed-signal designs.

Triad Semiconductor makes Mixed Signal Structured ASIC (MSSA) solutions
that allow you to create analog and digital circuitry on a single
integrated circuit without the need for expensive, time-consuming, and
error-prone full-custom layout. Instead, you use the pre-diffused
analog and digital primitives already in the die and interconnect the
analog and digital functions by using automatic place and route
software to position vias between metal 2 and metal 3 of the array.
With only one mask layer to send to the fab and wafers staged at the
foundry you can get back production ready mixed-signal parts in weeks
and at cost 1/20th those of traditional methods.

If you'd like to listen to the Triad Alliance Podcast visit
www.triadsemi.com or use iPodder or iTunes to search for "Triad
Alliance" and subsribe to the podcast. We are undergoing a massive
upgrade to our server during the next week so for now please email me
your requests to join the Triad Alliance (will be automated web form in
a couple of weeks). Also, if you would like to be interviewed on the
TAP show drop me a line and let me know what information you have to
share that would be usefull to mixed signal ASIC developers.

martin griffith · Jul 18, 2005

On 18 Jul 2005 08:15:33 -0700, in sci.electronics.design "liger"
<rwender@triadsemi.com> wrote:

Listen to the Triad Alliance Podcast (TAP), www.triadsemi.com, for
news, interviews, low-cost & free tools, access to free analog and
digital IP, and ways to promote your mixed-signal designs.

S.E.D will send in the Jim T Hit Squad and wait for his comments

martin

Jim Thompson · Jul 18, 2005

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 18:07:57 +0200, martin griffith
<martingriffith@XXyahoo.co.uk> wrote:

On 18 Jul 2005 08:15:33 -0700, in sci.electronics.design "liger"
rwender@triadsemi.com> wrote:

Listen to the Triad Alliance Podcast (TAP), www.triadsemi.com, for
news, interviews, low-cost & free tools, access to free analog and
digital IP, and ways to promote your mixed-signal designs.

S.E.D will send in the Jim T Hit Squad and wait for his comments

martin

Looks to be a Hans-Camenzind-like analog array, and you just wire up
the metal.

Good for quickies, but the density is poor, and the components are
never quite where you need them.

Not really a competitor to custom designs.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 18, 2005

Hello Jim,

Looks to be a Hans-Camenzind-like analog array, and you just wire up
the metal.

Good for quickies, but the density is poor, and the components are
never quite where you need them.

Other than the product briefs and some converter specs I couldn't find
any specs on the building blocks such as the amps.

Whenever I looked at SoC or processors with analog blocks I was mighty
disappointed and ended up doing the usual, a discrete design.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

liger · Jul 18, 2005

Jim,
Our intention is to be an Analog-FPGA-Like solution. No we aren't field
programmable but we do support a "Quickie" design flow and fabrication.
Also we are interesting for low-mid volumes but just like FPGAs in the
digital world, we will not beat a full-custom design and we will get
designed out as volumes go up.

We are a good platform for analog, full-custom experts to develop
reusable analog IP that can be purchased by people prototyping with
Triad but moving to the expert's full-custom solution for high-volume.

-Reid

liger · Jul 18, 2005

Sorry about the lack of analog block specs on the website. We are
moving servers this coming weekend (I hope...) and when switched over
we will have our Triad Alliance Member's section up. Inside the
member's section you will be able to download a MSSA Design Kit (MDK)
containing:

* Primitive Datasheets (OTAs, Output Stages, Switches, R, C,
Transistors,...)
* Spice Models
* Spice Macromodels
* Digital Logic Synthesis Libraries
* Analog, Mixed Signal, & Digital IP blocks (free)

If you'd like I can email you our MDK directly in the meantime.

Stretch here ---

If you were a member of the Triad Alliance you could develop analog
and mixed signal IP and release the IP in a secure form to Alliance
members. You create your IP using schematic capture and our symbol
library and our Place and Route software interconnects the primitives
and macros with vias between metal 2 and metal 3 (everything else is
pre-diffused).

You create a Spice Macromodel of your IP block to obscure the exact
implementation and then release that model and IP to the Triad
Alliance. This IP can be used by Alliance members to create prototypes
and low-volume production units (you receive licensing fee or royalty
from Alliance Member) and then you do the high-volume, density
optimized, full-custom design for the customer. This way you offer IP
to a larger group of potential customers and use the IP as a calling
card for your full-custom work.

Also, once you know how to develop IP for our platform we could list
you in the Triad Alliance under design services and forward customers
in need of mixed signal development to you.

Sorry for long winded answer,

Best Regards,
Reid

Jim Thompson · Jul 18, 2005

On 18 Jul 2005 11:01:38 -0700, "liger" <rwender@triadsemi.com> wrote:

Jim,
Our intention is to be an Analog-FPGA-Like solution. No we aren't field
programmable but we do support a "Quickie" design flow and fabrication.
Also we are interesting for low-mid volumes but just like FPGAs in the
digital world, we will not beat a full-custom design and we will get
designed out as volumes go up.

We are a good platform for analog, full-custom experts to develop
reusable analog IP that can be purchased by people prototyping with
Triad but moving to the expert's full-custom solution for high-volume.

-Reid

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 18, 2005

Hello Reid,

If you'd like I can email you our MDK directly in the meantime.

Thanks, that would be great. Although for now the primitive data sheets
would do. That way I could see what is possible with the process.

Email:

joergsch
at
analogconsultants.com

Sorry for long winded answer,

That was actually great information. Thanks. Question: I can understand
limited access to IP. But why would you want to limit access to things
such as primitives and process data to members? Forgive my criticism
here but that's almost like a car manufacturer not disclosing the
horsepower of their newest V8. Then again, IIRC Rolls Royce doesn't
disclose that. They simply used to state "sufficient" ;-)

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

John Larkin · Jul 18, 2005

On 18 Jul 2005 11:14:37 -0700, "liger" <rwender@triadsemi.com> wrote:

Sorry about the lack of analog block specs on the website. We are
moving servers this coming weekend (I hope...) and when switched over
we will have our Triad Alliance Member's section up. Inside the
member's section you will be able to download a MSSA Design Kit (MDK)
containing:

* Primitive Datasheets (OTAs, Output Stages, Switches, R, C,
Transistors,...)
* Spice Models
* Spice Macromodels
* Digital Logic Synthesis Libraries
* Analog, Mixed Signal, & Digital IP blocks (free)

If you'd like I can email you our MDK directly in the meantime.

Stretch here ---

If you were a member of the Triad Alliance you could develop analog
and mixed signal IP and release the IP in a secure form to Alliance
members. You create your IP using schematic capture and our symbol
library and our Place and Route software interconnects the primitives
and macros with vias between metal 2 and metal 3 (everything else is
pre-diffused).

You create a Spice Macromodel of your IP block to obscure the exact
implementation and then release that model and IP to the Triad
Alliance. This IP can be used by Alliance members to create prototypes
and low-volume production units (you receive licensing fee or royalty
from Alliance Member) and then you do the high-volume, density
optimized, full-custom design for the customer. This way you offer IP
to a larger group of potential customers and use the IP as a calling
card for your full-custom work.

Also, once you know how to develop IP for our platform we could list
you in the Triad Alliance under design services and forward customers
in need of mixed signal development to you.

Sorry for long winded answer,

Best Regards,
Reid

Joining a member's alliance thingie will cause some number of
engineers to not bother to look into your technology in detail. There
are thousands of new products to keep current with, and registration
just encourages us to bail and look elsewhere. I realize your
marketing types want to know what the interest level is.

John

liger · Jul 18, 2005

John,
You are right - everybody is too busy and alliance thingie shouldn't be
required to get data. I'm not really the marketing guy (I do play one
on the internet). I'm an ASIC designer the past 17 years (mostly
digital I do confess). My last 'big' design was a 3D Wavelet CODEC for
QuVIS, www.quvis.com...I'm just trying to jump start a conversation
with real designers so that we come up with platforms/approaches that
make sense for mixed-signal designers.

All of the technology information will be available without registering
or joining our alliance...website update is due by the end of the
week...

Reasons to join the Alliance include:
* Ability to submit Analog & Mixed-Signal IP
* Download and use Analog & Mixed-Signal IP in simulations
* Promotion of Alliance Member's services, IP, and products
* Ability to sell IP and products through the Alliance Network

Since we want to have our own "mixed-signal sandbox" we want designers
to be able to develop IP and products for Triad platforms even if they
are a small design or consulting firm with Triad acting as the
market-place and distibution partner. You design the IP/Product - we
list it in the Alliance Catalog (website, emails, podcasts, and with
our distribution partner), we take and service small quantity sample
and product order requests, your provide the applications engineering,
we sell you parts at an Alliance member wholesale price and you charge
a retail price to customers for volumes 1, 10, 100, etc for IP or
products.

liger · Jul 18, 2005

Current platform details:

Foundry: AMS, 0.35 micron, CMOS, 4M, 2 Poly
2.6-5V Operation
40 MHz OTAs, OpAmps

Jim Thompson · Jul 18, 2005

On 18 Jul 2005 13:41:46 -0700, "liger" <rwender@triadsemi.com> wrote:

Current platform details:

Foundry: AMS, 0.35 micron, CMOS, 4M, 2 Poly
2.6-5V Operation
40 MHz OTAs, OpAmps

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Joerg · Jul 18, 2005

Hello Reid,

All of the technology information will be available without registering
or joining our alliance...

Fair enough.

..., we sell you parts at an Alliance member wholesale price and you charge
a retail price to customers for volumes 1, 10, 100, etc for IP or
products.

In the US this could become a real problem. In many states it is quite
easy to run a consulting business. Once you start procuring (buy-sell)
product though a whole slew of regulations and additional tax rules
comes thundering down on you. Most consultants do not want to get in the
middle of that. I'd consider a model where customers buy directly from
Triad and the consultant receives a royalty. Or the customer buys out
the rights. Of course, the verification process can be considered a bit
dicey by some because Triad is privately held but I am sure that can be
solved.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Jul 18, 2005

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 20:54:46 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Reid,

All of the technology information will be available without registering
or joining our alliance...

Fair enough.

..., we sell you parts at an Alliance member wholesale price and you charge
a retail price to customers for volumes 1, 10, 100, etc for IP or
products.

In the US this could become a real problem. In many states it is quite
easy to run a consulting business. Once you start procuring (buy-sell)
product though a whole slew of regulations and additional tax rules
comes thundering down on you. Most consultants do not want to get in the
middle of that. I'd consider a model where customers buy directly from
Triad and the consultant receives a royalty. Or the customer buys out
the rights. Of course, the verification process can be considered a bit
dicey by some because Triad is privately held but I am sure that can be
solved.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

liger · Jul 18, 2005

We have 'plans' for BiCMOS...in the very short-term we will be
expanding to low-power (on the existing process) and then high-voltage
(AMS additive process). BiCMOS is slated for "next year". Thanks for
the feedback.

Guy Macon · Jul 18, 2005

liger wrote:

(Concerning [ http://www.triadsemi.com/ ])

Our intention is to be an Analog-FPGA-Like solution. No we aren't field
programmable but we do support a "Quickie" design flow and fabrication.
Also we are interesting for low-mid volumes but just like FPGAs in the
digital world, we will not beat a full-custom design and we will get
designed out as volumes go up.

We are a good platform for analog, full-custom experts to develop
reusable analog IP that can be purchased by people prototyping with
Triad but moving to the expert's full-custom solution for high-volume.

[ http://www.triadsemi.com/support.FAQs.html#12 ] says:

"The cost from gate level netlist to developed product using a
0.35 micron feature size process (MSSA-1, MSSA-2 and MSSA-3) may
be $35K - $105K depending upon a mutually agreeable production
order volume."

[ http://www.triadsemi.com/products.MSStructuredASIC.html ] says:

Full Custom ASIC MS Structured ASIC
Time to Market 12-18 months 3-5 months
IC Development Costs $500K-$2M $35-70K
Economical Production Volume 1M-3M+ 10K-500K

...but the above leaves out an important bit of information,
which is the per-unit cost for comparable designs. If you
only look at the above info, a third choice beats both:

Full Custom ASIC MS Structured ASIC Discrete components
12-18 months 3-5 months 1-2 months
$500K-$2M $35-70K $0
1M-3M+ 10K-500K 100+

Add the per-unit costs top the above chart and you get a better
picture of where your product fits in. Publishing charts with
no numbers on them (http://www.triadsemi.com/mssa.technology.html)
is, in my opinion, no way to convince design engineers.

John Larkin · Jul 18, 2005

On 18 Jul 2005 13:37:54 -0700, "liger" <rwender@triadsemi.com> wrote:

John,
You are right - everybody is too busy and alliance thingie shouldn't be
required to get data. I'm not really the marketing guy (I do play one
on the internet). I'm an ASIC designer the past 17 years (mostly
digital I do confess). My last 'big' design was a 3D Wavelet CODEC for
QuVIS, www.quvis.com...I'm just trying to jump start a conversation
with real designers so that we come up with platforms/approaches that
make sense for mixed-signal designers.

All of the technology information will be available without registering
or joining our alliance...website update is due by the end of the
week...

Cool, I'll check it again. Just now we're jamming 16 channels of nasty
analog signal conditioning (with power and data isolation!) into under
2 square inches/channel, and it sort of hurts. We've looked into the
programmable analog chip things, the "analog FPGAs", but none had very
appealing performance.

Tektronix ==> Maxim used to have a very fast analog cell (custom
metalization only) process, as did a couple of other people, but I
don't know if any survived.

John

Joerg · Jul 18, 2005

Hello John,

... We've looked into the
programmable analog chip things, the "analog FPGAs", but none had very
appealing performance.

That's exactly the point. Everytime I looked at SoC or analog
programmables I could run circles around their specs with jelly bean
part. Sometimes even with an LM324, some BC846 or using logic chips in
semi-analog fashion.

Tektronix ==> Maxim used to have a very fast analog cell (custom
metalization only) process, as did a couple of other people, but I
don't know if any survived.

Tektronix could have been a major player here but my impression was that
they didn't market their capabilities much. Maybe Triad Semi can step
into that market.

For an SoC approach to be successful it has to be on par with fast
stuff, even with a circuit around a BFS17A. Then there is cost. An NRE
might be ok (not always) but it is extremely hard to beat a discrete
design that is manufactured in China. Where a dual Schottky can be had
for a couple of Cents.

Once I looked at one of my 10+ year old designs. 70-80 discretes or so.
Since it's still in production I pondered a transfer to a uC and called
up the client to see whether there would be a cost advantage for them.
When they told me the cost per board it blew me away. You couldn't even
buy a cup of coffee at Starbucks for that. So it'll have to wait until
TI drops the MSP430 to 30-40 Cents. And it would have to have an ADC on
board for that money. Lots of water will flow down the Sacramento river
until then.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

John Larkin · Jul 19, 2005

On Mon, 18 Jul 2005 13:56:27 CST, Guy Macon

hijacked another s.e.d. post. That's the only traffic in his moderated
group in days!

In almost 4 weeks, 13 threads were started over there, 12 by GM
himself.

John

liger · Jul 19, 2005

I agree with the chart critique. Part of what I'm trying to do with our
website and our the "Triad Alliance" is to create a set of very clear
and transparent information...I'm working on it but I've just taken
over ownership of the web info so I'll need a little time to help make
the marketing-junk a little less junky.

I'm not really answering your question about piece-part pricing but I
will post some info about a 6 wafer package including fabrication once
my marketing buddy gives me the okay (hours I hope).
-Reid

Start your own Fabless Semiconductor Company

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