Solar cell modules

Fred B. McGalliard wrote:
"Anthony Matonak" <res04ijs@verizon.net> wrote in message

I think the main point is that solar PV is a technology that
does not require massive infrastructure. It's something that
can be done on an individual and distributed basis. The big
power companies really don't have that much advantage over
individuals.

Sorry Anthony, but I think this is quite wrong. Solar PV requires a very
large infrastructure to build, and a substantial infrastructure to maintain.
Click to expand...
I don't know about that. Solar PV can be used in any size from digital
watches to powering hotels. Big power companies have to buy the same
parts as individuals and would mostly pay similar prices. The large
infrastructure to build and maintain them is called "the rest of
civilization" for the most part and is accessible for an individual
as it is for a big power company.

The cells may last 100 years, but the inverters, storage batteries and the
like, are more typically 5-10 years. And, many of us do not live where
sunlight is all that reliable. The more unreliable, the larger and more
expensive the system that is required, and the more severe compromises have
to be made to keep the night light on. The PV systems, to obtain maximum
practical usage for the civilization as a whole, need to be installed in
mass in the desert regions down in the temperate zones in the us, Texas and
like that. This puts the big power companies in the cat bird seat, still.
Click to expand...
Oddly enough, many people do live where the sunlight is fairly reliable
and a PV system can be small enough to be practical for an individual.
The civilization as a whole is just a collection of individuals when
you look at it closely enough.

But it is that, or pay 3-4 times as much for the same electricity from a
system that gives you constant headaches maintaining yourself, and one that
may actually consume more power to build and install than it can produce in
it's life, because we insist on living where we want instead of where solar
power pays off.
Click to expand...
Grid tied systems need close to zero maintenance so I hardly see that as
giving constant headaches. Even with a battery system, I've heard about
some that only require a checkup every six months or so. Lastly, while
PV may be more expensive than grid power, I don't think that a big power
company can build solar PV all that much cheaper than anyone else.

Anthony
 
On a sunny day (Mon, 19 Apr 2004 23:29:44 -0400) it happened KR Williams
<krw@att.biz> wrote in <MPG.1aee5dc15a68ae80989762@news1.news.adelphia.net>:

In article <c61hta$tfu$1@news.f.de.plusline.net>,
pNaonStpealmtje@yahoo.com says...
On a sunny day (Mon, 19 Apr 2004 17:11:39 GMT) it happened "Roger Gt"
not@here.net> wrote in <fLTgc.38581$Xr3.21091@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>:


So 'savages' and 'from the east' and 'cannibals'?
Pretty much describes US in Iraq.
You <---- have to understand human.

Your recollection of history seems a bit tinted too.
Why not give the indiens (spelling?) their land back ;-)

Get back on your drugs. You can't even spell (and are too lazy
to look up "Indians", you know sorta like "India").
Thank you Keith, as for the drugs I cannot help you there.
Click to expand...
But this morning it occured to me that it is purely academic,
kill Iraqies, for the oil, sell the oil, buy food from that
money and eat it -versus- kill and eat Iraqies directly.
So cannibals applies.
Since you did not object to that, I take it you vote for impeachment
of the Bush clan too?
JP
 
X-No-Archive: yes
"Richard Henry" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
: > "maxfoo" wrote
: > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > : >
<snip>
: > :
: > Nope... But when D.D. Eisenhower was president he declared
: > martial law and cleared out the majority of the Illegals. I
can't
: > see why that wouldn't work again.
:
: Martial law? I must have missed that.

Well gee, what were you doing in 1956-1960? Didn't you vote?
 
X-No-Archive: yes
"Fred B. McGalliard" wrote
: "Richard Henry" wrote
: > "Roger Gt" wrote

: > > The savages who lived here didn't own the land,
: > Who did? The King of Spain?
:
: No. The tribes "owned" the land they could defend with their
ferocity,
: cunning, and a sharp stick or flint ax. They did not farm as
individuals but
: as extended families, so they had no need to own the land as
individuals.
: The horse, and the steel blades changed all that quite rapidly
in historic
: terms, well before the settlers started to sweep across the
country.


Show me the "TITLE" and where it was recorded! (And In what
language)
Manhattan Island was "Bought" for $24.00 worth of beads, from
Indians who thought it strange that anyone would ask to "Buy"
anything, but they took the beads!

The only thing Indians "Owned" was a franchise to build Casinos!!!
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:n7fa80d06v4ic9piaiui3v01jio8fc9m6h@4ax.com...

While you are dicking around with solar cells the big
power companies will build a solar-powered steam plant with *huge*
servo'd mirrors. I put pencil-to-paper once upon a time... you can do
marvelously if you've got the acreage.
Click to expand...
They already have.

http://www.volker-quaschning.de/downloads/VGB2001.pdf

Scroll down to page 5.
 
"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:kqchc.24608$4k5.4365@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...
X-No-Archive: yes
"Richard Henry" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
: > "maxfoo" wrote
: > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > :
snip
: > :
: > Nope... But when D.D. Eisenhower was president he declared
: > martial law and cleared out the majority of the Illegals. I
can't
: > see why that wouldn't work again.
:
: Martial law? I must have missed that.

Well gee, what were you doing in 1956-1960? Didn't you vote?
Click to expand...
In 1960, I turned 13, so no voting for me then.

I don't recall any martial law, either. Can you be more specific?
 
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:14:31 -0700, "Richard Henry" <rphenry@home.com>
wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:n7fa80d06v4ic9piaiui3v01jio8fc9m6h@4ax.com...

While you are dicking around with solar cells the big
power companies will build a solar-powered steam plant with *huge*
servo'd mirrors. I put pencil-to-paper once upon a time... you can do
marvelously if you've got the acreage.


They already have.

http://www.volker-quaschning.de/downloads/VGB2001.pdf

Scroll down to page 5.
Click to expand...
Arizona Public Service has a similar operating facility west of
Phoenix that, for some reason, is kept very hush-hush. It was in the
papers a few years ago, then no more mention.

The efficiency of such a system FAR exceeds what will EVER be attained
with photo cells.

...Jim Thompson
--
| James E.Thompson, P.E. | mens |
| Analog Innovations, Inc. | et |
| Analog/Mixed-Signal ASIC's and Discrete Systems | manus |
| Phoenix, Arizona Voice:(480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax:(480)460-2142 | Brass Rat |
| http://www.analog-innovations.com | 1962 |

I love to cook with wine. Sometimes I even put it in the food.
 
"Anthony Matonak" <res04ijs@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:408547CA.90005@verizon.net...
....
I don't know about that. Solar PV can be used in any size from digital
watches to powering hotels. Big power companies have to buy the same
parts as individuals and would mostly pay similar prices. The large
infrastructure to build and maintain them is called "the rest of
civilization" for the most part and is accessible for an individual
as it is for a big power company.
Click to expand...
So, first you have to build and support a huge civilization, not stand alone
as an individual. Big point that. The power company would buy in really
large blocks, install in a single area without pre-existing structures in
the way. I would be surprised if their PV installed cost were (assuming they
are in this for profit not subsidies) any more than a third what the
individual must suffer. Of course a skilled do it yourselfer with time to
hunt up bargains might do a lot better, but this has to apply to the whole
people, not just the few.

....
Oddly enough, many people do live where the sunlight is fairly reliable
and a PV system can be small enough to be practical for an individual.
The civilization as a whole is just a collection of individuals when
you look at it closely enough.
Click to expand...
I am not saying that an individual cannot spend an arm and a leg, buy a
system that is three times the size of an optimized well sited system,
overwhelm everything with massive and expensive battery storage, and be
perfectly happy with running out of power in the middle of microwaving his
hot dogs, but you gotta recognize that overall this process needs to be made
as inexpensive as possible or it will make most of us a lot poorer. I am
concerned that you are seeing that a PV system can be built, but not what
the trade offs of this system imply to our lives. I believe that when PV
electricity becomes cheaper than coal/natural gas/uranium, (if it can), then
most of us will be buying most of our electricity from huge PV arrays in the
southern deserts, not from a little farm outside our town. There will be few
who will "roll their own", and some small town back up plants for summer
peaks and such, but the bulk power has to be the cheap power and that has to
be large and in the right place to make solar power.

....
Grid tied systems need close to zero maintenance so I hardly see that as
giving constant headaches. Even with a battery system, I've heard about
some that only require a checkup every six months or so. Lastly, while
PV may be more expensive than grid power, I don't think that a big power
company can build solar PV all that much cheaper than anyone else.
Click to expand...
Grid tie is great for a small system or two. If we get more than 20% from
such systems, the grid has to be redesigned to be a storage system of sorts.
I overstated what I think is the actual level of difficulty to get you to
think about the demand you are making on the ordinary citizen to maintain
his private power system. Every few years he has something break down, and
he knows nothing about it. The maintenance costs eat his profit for dinner.
A tree branch, an ice storm, a battery failure, a lightening bolt, and his
system is disconnected from the grid so he can turn his lights on, and we
are back to the centralized distributions system. Your last point, that you
think a big company can not build PV much cheaper than Joe, and the general
implication that the cost to Joe of electricity from his local PV system is
competitive with ConEd from the Mohave Desert by way of the grid, needs a
lot more quantification I think. As I recall there is around a 3 to 1
difference in the average solar insolation between Seattle and Phoenix, for
example. It is pretty hard to make up for that kind of a cost differential,
but on top of that you have to add even more storage someplace for all that
electricity, since the winter insolation up here is really crappy for months
on end. That is one heck of a lot of storage, and to do it locally is
generally from hard to impossible. (In Seattle we might be able to find a
nearby mountain valley we could turn into a lake for hydrostorage, but a lot
of locations are a long ways from any possible storage site). .
 
X-No-Archive: yes
"Richard Henry" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
: > "Richard Henry" wrote
: > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > : > "maxfoo" wrote
: > : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: > <snip>
: > : > Nope... But when D.D. Eisenhower was president he
declared
: > : > martial law and cleared out the majority of the Illegals.
I
: > : > can't see why that wouldn't work again.
: > : Martial law? I must have missed that.
: > Well gee, what were you doing in 1956-1960? Didn't you vote?
: In 1960, I turned 13, so no voting for me then.
: I don't recall any martial law, either. Can you be more
specific?

I remember the announcement, I was in the Army at the time and
thought it was going to send me to a new assignment (it Didn't).
But I haven't seen anything about it a long time. Perhaps it was
the threat of marshal law that sent many thousands of illegal
aliens home. Whatever it worked! There were complaints about
the lost farm labor and a guest worker program was set up.

I'll research it and get back to you with some references.....
 
"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:SJchc.24622$9x5.18471@newssvr27.news.prodigy.com...

Manhattan Island was "Bought" for $24.00 worth of beads, from
Indians who thought it strange that anyone would ask to "Buy"
anything, but they took the beads!
Click to expand...
The fact that the colonists were willing to pay anything of value implies
that they ecognized the origianl inhabitants claim to the land


The only thing Indians "Owned" was a franchise to build Casinos!!!
Click to expand...
I have some questions about your history books: How many pictures are on
each page? 1, 4, or 8? Are they precolored, or do you have to use your
crayons? Is some of the text in balloons or is it all in the captions?
 
X-No-Archive: yes
"Richard Henry" wrote
: "Roger Gt" wrote
:
: > Manhattan Island was "Bought" for $24.00 worth of beads, from
: > Indians who thought it strange that anyone would ask to "Buy"
: > anything, but they took the beads!
:
: The fact that the colonists were willing to pay anything of
value implies
: that they ecognized the origianl inhabitants claim to the land

Gee, can't spell either. Not a good sign. Not Colonists,
"Explorers" and later, settlers.

A distant relative, a genteel man and doctor, named James Dodson
was the first casualty of an Indian raid. The Indians would war
on their Neighbors for anything they wanted. Kill anyone who
resisted and sell prisoners into slavery.

The family (two sons) survived due to a Scotsman who killed three
of the attacking Indians with his muzzle loaded Musket and the
family later moved to Salem Township.

http://www.lowerluzernecounty.com/salem-twp-by-mrs-lt-hartnan.htm

I know my Family's history well, and my family came to this
continent (Like the Indians, except by ship) a little before 1542.
My predecessors took part in the establishment of order and the
taming of the wilderness. They fought on both sides of the
Revolutionary and civil wars, and in every military action since
those original landings. We ARE the original Americans!

: > The only thing Indians "Owned" was a franchise to build
Casinos!!!
:
: I have some questions about your history books: How many
pictures are on
: each page? 1, 4, or 8? Are they precolored, or do you have to
use your
: crayons? Is some of the text in balloons or is it all in the
captions?

You ARE funny! However, Unlike your books they are all printed in
American English. But you unfamiliarity with history is TELLING,
You didn't read them when you were assigned to do the reports,
using Politically correct crib sheets. Right?

As a test: When and where was the first Quaker meeting house
built?

Yes, I do know! My family was there! They helped raise the
building.
 
"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:6rma80pevilb63ecse8ls63k3r3gadtuho@4ax.com...
....
The efficiency of such a system FAR exceeds what will EVER be attained
with photo cells.
Click to expand...
I won't take that without a bit of study. The solar cells take a scads of
energy to build, but once built run for a very long time without much
maintenance. The thermal system is mechanically more complex, requires a lot
more maintenance, is more sensitive to wind loading, and of course you are
running pretty cool so the thermal efficiency is not all that great. I would
think the solar trough is more like 20% and probably much closer to PV than
you allude. The very large focusing arrays can run a lot hotter, and may
then give you a bit better efficiency, but you are still not likely to make
much over 40% and even at that, if you add in the higher rates of "dead"
space that the big focusing arrays use, you may find the total percentage of
energy recovered per square mile to be under 20%. The cost per KWH recovered
is, I think, the killer here, and the increased maintenance adds a lot to
this cost for the thermal array.
 
Roger Gt wrote:
The Indians would war on their Neighbors for anything they wanted.
Kill anyone who resisted and sell prisoners into slavery.
Click to expand...
Thanks, I wondered where the USA learnt to do that.
Made a fine art of it now, haven't they?
 
Anthony Matonak wrote:

Fred B. McGalliard wrote:

"Anthony Matonak" <res04ijs@verizon.net> wrote in message

I think the main point is that solar PV is a technology that
does not require massive infrastructure. It's something that
can be done on an individual and distributed basis. The big
power companies really don't have that much advantage over
individuals.


Sorry Anthony, but I think this is quite wrong. Solar PV requires a very
large infrastructure to build, and a substantial infrastructure to
maintain.


I don't know about that. Solar PV can be used in any size from digital
watches to powering hotels. [snip]
Click to expand...
The point is not whether or not they can be used, but whether or not
they can be used economically and profitably.
 
Watson A.Name \"Watt Sun - the Dark Remover\" wrote:
Anthony Matonak wrote:

Fred B. McGalliard wrote:
Sorry Anthony, but I think this is quite wrong. Solar PV requires a very
large infrastructure to build, and a substantial infrastructure to
maintain.

I don't know about that. Solar PV can be used in any size from digital
watches to powering hotels. [snip]

The point is not whether or not they can be used, but whether or not
they can be used economically and profitably.
Click to expand...
Oh, if that was the point then it's already been decided. Right now,
solar PV is not economical or profitable except in niche applications
not connected to the grid. Tomorrow... who knows? It does seem to be
getting cheaper all the time.

This, of course, has nothing to do with the question of "Is the
profitable use of solar PV limited to big mega-corporations?"

If we go back a couple of articles in this thread...

KR Williams wrote:
In article <408355B0.8BCF6208@my.mailbox>, NOspam@my.mailbox
says...
KR Williams wrote:

My guess though, is that solar cells for the individual will
never become cheaper than power from the grid, since the power
company has access to the same technology and a *lot* better
financing possibilities. ...and they don't have to have the pay-
back in my lifetime.

They have access to the tech, BUT, they also have to maintain the
distribution system. ...
All this is avoided cost on home solar.

There is still a huge advantage of scale.
Click to expand...
Some technologies simply can not be affordably implemented on a small
homeowner scale and for them to be used you need a big company or co-op.
Solar PV is not in that category. The example of a solar powered radio
shows this. It does not require huge resources to build, buy or
maintain. The basic idea is that when it comes to solar PV installations
there really isn't much advantage of scale. A huge installation will
cost only slightly less per watt as a smaller one.

Anthony
 
X-No-Archive: yes
"Clifford Heath" <cjh-nospam@nospaManagesoft.com> wrote in message
news:1082502964.907583@excalibur.osa.com.au...
: Roger Gt wrote:
: > The Indians would war on their Neighbors for anything they
wanted.
: > Kill anyone who resisted and sell prisoners into slavery.
:
: Thanks, I wondered where the USA learnt to do that.
: Made a fine art of it now, haven't they?

Actually it was brought over from Europe.
Beheading, public hanging, and floggings,
Inquisition by torture, were all standard
fare in that enlightened portion of the world.

Since we only escaped we naturally brought
it with us. More controlled and focused,
it is no less part of all human history.
Part of the nature of the beast so it will
always be there. Only in some areas of the
world the "masters" have beaten it out of
much of the populace to get a more docile
following. We cultivate our freedom, and
retain the instinct for survival.

Like a snake, moving silently away if not
attacked, striking with great effect when
aroused.
We once had a flag which said it all.

"Don't tread on me!"

:)>)
 
X-No-Archive: yes
"Roger Gt" wrote
: "Richard Henry" wrote
: : "Roger Gt" wrote
: : > "Richard Henry" wrote
: : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: : > : > "maxfoo" wrote
: : > : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: : > <snip>
: : > : > Nope... But when D.D. Eisenhower was president he
: declared
: : > : > martial law and cleared out the majority of the
Illegals.
: I
: : > : > can't see why that wouldn't work again.
: : > : Martial law? I must have missed that.
: : > Well gee, what were you doing in 1956-1960? Didn't you
vote?
: : In 1960, I turned 13, so no voting for me then.
: : I don't recall any martial law, either. Can you be more
: specific?
:
: I remember the announcement, I was in the Army at the time and
: thought it was going to send me to a new assignment (it Didn't).
: But I haven't seen anything about it a long time. Perhaps it
was
: the threat of marshal law that sent many thousands of illegal
: aliens home. Whatever it worked! There were complaints about
: the lost farm labor and a guest worker program was set up.
:
: I'll research it and get back to you with some references.....
:
Well Ike did use Martial law, but not for aliens! It was likely
just a threat, along with leaks about setting up interment camps
that did the tick. Perhaps Sheriff Joe of Maricopa County Arizona
will show them how to set up a "camp."
 
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 20:50:55 GMT, "Fred B. McGalliard"
<frederick.b.mcgalliard@boeing.com> wrote:

"Jim Thompson" <thegreatone@example.com> wrote in message
news:6rma80pevilb63ecse8ls63k3r3gadtuho@4ax.com...
...
The efficiency of such a system FAR exceeds what will EVER be attained
with photo cells.

I won't take that without a bit of study. The solar cells take a scads of
energy to build, but once built run for a very long time without much
maintenance. The thermal system is mechanically more complex, requires a lot
more maintenance, is more sensitive to wind loading, and of course you are
running pretty cool so the thermal efficiency is not all that great. I would
think the solar trough is more like 20% and probably much closer to PV than
you allude. The very large focusing arrays can run a lot hotter, and may
then give you a bit better efficiency, but you are still not likely to make
much over 40% and even at that, if you add in the higher rates of "dead"
space that the big focusing arrays use, you may find the total percentage of
energy recovered per square mile to be under 20%. The cost per KWH recovered
is, I think, the killer here, and the increased maintenance adds a lot to
this cost for the thermal array.
Click to expand...
Not to mention that such systems are not practical outside of regions
with lots of clear sky. Light diffusion caused by cloud cover prevents
the thermal system from focusing the sunlight on the receiver.
 
"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:6Mqhc.53755$TJ3.46994@newssvr25.news.prodigy.com...
X-No-Archive: yes
"Roger Gt" wrote
: "Richard Henry" wrote
: : "Roger Gt" wrote
: : > "Richard Henry" wrote
: : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: : > : > "maxfoo" wrote
: : > : > : "Roger Gt" wrote
: : > <snip
: : > : > Nope... But when D.D. Eisenhower was president he
: declared
: : > : > martial law and cleared out the majority of the
Illegals.
: I
: : > : > can't see why that wouldn't work again.
: : > : Martial law? I must have missed that.
: : > Well gee, what were you doing in 1956-1960? Didn't you
vote?
: : In 1960, I turned 13, so no voting for me then.
: : I don't recall any martial law, either. Can you be more
: specific?
:
: I remember the announcement, I was in the Army at the time and
: thought it was going to send me to a new assignment (it Didn't).
: But I haven't seen anything about it a long time. Perhaps it
was
: the threat of marshal law that sent many thousands of illegal
: aliens home. Whatever it worked! There were complaints about
: the lost farm labor and a guest worker program was set up.
:
: I'll research it and get back to you with some references.....
:
Well Ike did use Martial law, but not for aliens!
Click to expand...
Still no reference?
 
"Clifford Heath" <cjh-nospam@nospaManagesoft.com> wrote in message
news:1082502964.907583@excalibur.osa.com.au...
Roger Gt wrote:
The Indians would war on their Neighbors for anything they wanted.
Kill anyone who resisted and sell prisoners into slavery.

Thanks, I wondered where the USA learnt to do that.
Made a fine art of it now, haven't they?
Click to expand...
I wish. If they are making a profit in war, why is our debt load increasing
so fast?
 
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