RF through water question

[martin griffith]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:03:19 +0100, Keith Wootten
<keithw@nononono.co.uk> wrote:

In message <c7t1i902kvo@drn.newsguy.com>, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes

[snipped]

"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."

I bet they're mightily pissed off by HTML messages.

Cheers
bet they get rid of popup ads as well

martin

Three things are certain:
Death, taxes and lost data.
Guess which has occurred.

 

[Ken Smith]

In article <c7t1i902kvo@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
[....]

"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."

This is why a familigram might say something like this "..Born 010613 1+
ok". Until the sailor comes home he doesn't know the eye color of his
kid.

BTW: They don't trail anything to receive, as far as I know. Trailing
something isn't something they want to have to do to get orders. They do
trail a sonar array which looks like a firehose on the end of a longish
cable. The sonar array isn't deployed all of the time and they can chop
it off if they have to.

--
--
kensmith@rahul.net forging knowledge

 

[Jan Panteltje]

On a sunny day (Wed, 12 May 2004 13:03:19 +0100) it happened Keith Wootten
<keithw@nononono.co.uk> wrote in <pyU5o2AHKhoAFwsH@clara.co.uk>:

In message <c7t1i902kvo@drn.newsguy.com>, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes

[snipped]

"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."

I bet they're mightily pissed off by HTML messages.

Cheers
LOL

 

[Alan McClure]

Ken Smith wrote:

In article <c7t1i902kvo+AEA-drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield+AF8-member+AEA-newsguy.com> wrote:
[....]


"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."



This is why a familigram might say something like this "..Born 010613 1
ok". Until the sailor comes home he doesn't know the eye color of his
kid.

BTW: They don't trail anything to receive, as far as I know. Trailing
something isn't something they want to have to do to get orders. They do
trail a sonar array which looks like a firehose on the end of a longish
cable. The sonar array isn't deployed all of the time and they can chop
it off if they have to.



Boy, I would love to correct some of the mis-information expounded in

this thread so far.
It's been over thirty years since my last cruise in a fleet balistic
missile submarine and I'm not
sure how much of what I know is still classified.
I will tell you that family grams were limited to about 20 words each
and 3 per patrol.
The boat was nearly continuously receiving civilian teletype news feeds
(AP,UPI, REUTERS).
Reception of relatively high speed message traffic was never a problem
at our normal
operating depth.
Transmitting, however, is/was somewhat problematical. FBMs due to their
mission DO NOT
transmit/radiate any more energy than they have to. Most equipment with
the ability to generate
a signal had its fuses pull to preclude accidentally exposing the boats
position. That included
radio, radar, and sonar.

ARM

 

[Tim Fish]

76Hz indeed. Wavelengths of thousands of km. Antenna *feedlines* tens
of km long. It's fascinating stuff. If it's meant to be a secret
they're not doing a very good job of keeping it

A teacher at my college told me that somewhere (i cant have been listening)
they use the granite rock as an antenna, and then drill down however amny
miles apart and make a connection.

not sure if he was talking aout of his...

Tim

 

[bushbadee]

Actually it could not be much of a secret when people were lighting thier
homes with the signal off the antenna.



"Tim Fish" <timfishy@orange.net> wrote in message
newsDuoc.2866$wI4.247033@wards.force9.net...

76Hz indeed. Wavelengths of thousands of km. Antenna *feedlines* tens
of km long. It's fascinating stuff. If it's meant to be a secret
they're not doing a very good job of keeping it

A teacher at my college told me that somewhere (i cant have been
listening)
they use the granite rock as an antenna, and then drill down however amny
miles apart and make a connection.

not sure if he was talking aout of his...

Tim

 

[daestrom]

"Tim Auton" <tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY]> wrote in message
news:k4v2a05qjmhjsgql95tbdsig7flqaq7urs@4ax.com...

Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY]> wrote...

What I can find on the ELF system in use by the US (76Hz)
suggests they can receive ELF at operational speed and depth...

Wow, 76Hz? And this stuff is being discussed in public?

76Hz indeed. Wavelengths of thousands of km. Antenna *feedlines* tens
of km long. It's fascinating stuff. If it's meant to be a secret
they're not doing a very good job of keeping it

Yep. Was a big politcal flap in the '80's about the military wanting to put
an ELF transmitter in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Locals were up in
arms about possible EM health effects. The site was to be over several
miles.

Even then, the ELF could be picked up by submarines operating *not* 'near
the surface. But messages took a *long* time to transmit.

daestrom
(former submariner)

 

[daestrom]

"Ken Smith" <kensmith@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:c7tccp$s9t$1@blue.rahul.net...

In article <c7t1i902kvo@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
[....]
"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."

This is why a familigram might say something like this "..Born 010613 1+
ok". Until the sailor comes home he doesn't know the eye color of his
kid.

BTW: They don't trail anything to receive, as far as I know. Trailing
something isn't something they want to have to do to get orders. They do
trail a sonar array which looks like a firehose on the end of a longish
cable. The sonar array isn't deployed all of the time and they can chop
it off if they have to.

We did have a 'floating wire antenna', but it was not for ELF. It's use was
discouraged because 1) you had to be going slow and near the surface in
order for it to float to the surface, 2) quite often seagulls or other birds
would sit on it. The sight of 4 or 6 seagulls making 3 knots through the
ocean in a line was something to see through a periscope, but obviously it
gave away our position to anyone nearby.

daestrom
(former submariner)

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 21:09:00 GMT, the renowned "daestrom"
<daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:

"Tim Auton" <tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY]> wrote in message
news:k4v2a05qjmhjsgql95tbdsig7flqaq7urs@4ax.com...
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY]> wrote...

What I can find on the ELF system in use by the US (76Hz)
suggests they can receive ELF at operational speed and depth...

Wow, 76Hz? And this stuff is being discussed in public?

76Hz indeed. Wavelengths of thousands of km. Antenna *feedlines* tens
of km long. It's fascinating stuff. If it's meant to be a secret
they're not doing a very good job of keeping it

Yep. Was a big politcal flap in the '80's about the military wanting to put
an ELF transmitter in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Locals were up in
arms about possible EM health effects. The site was to be over several
miles.

Supposedly there was a proposal to use a good chunk of Wisconsin at
one point- burying 6,000 miles of cable. The current pair of antennas
near Clam Lake Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan (Republic, MI) are
only a few acres total.

Terraserver should have satellite photos of the antennas.

Even then, the ELF could be picked up by submarines operating *not* 'near
the surface. But messages took a *long* time to transmit.

I imagine the messages go something like:

"do not launch missiles"
"do not launch missiles"
"do not launch missiles"
"do <crackle> launch missiles"
"do not launch missiles"

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[daestrom]

"Spehro Pefhany" <speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat> wrote in message
news:i985a0ldb41fstd7qjko3eg4n70147grnn@4ax.com...

On Wed, 12 May 2004 21:09:00 GMT, the renowned "daestrom"
daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote:


"Tim Auton" <tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY]> wrote in message
news:k4v2a05qjmhjsgql95tbdsig7flqaq7urs@4ax.com...
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
Tim Auton <tim.auton@uton.[groupSexWithoutTheY]> wrote...

What I can find on the ELF system in use by the US (76Hz)
suggests they can receive ELF at operational speed and depth...

Wow, 76Hz? And this stuff is being discussed in public?

76Hz indeed. Wavelengths of thousands of km. Antenna *feedlines* tens
of km long. It's fascinating stuff. If it's meant to be a secret
they're not doing a very good job of keeping it

Yep. Was a big politcal flap in the '80's about the military wanting to
put
an ELF transmitter in the upper peninsula of Michigan. Locals were up in
arms about possible EM health effects. The site was to be over several
miles.

Supposedly there was a proposal to use a good chunk of Wisconsin at
one point- burying 6,000 miles of cable. The current pair of antennas
near Clam Lake Wisconsin and the UP of Michigan (Republic, MI) are
only a few acres total.

Terraserver should have satellite photos of the antennas.


Even then, the ELF could be picked up by submarines operating *not* 'near
the surface. But messages took a *long* time to transmit.


I imagine the messages go something like:

"do not launch missiles"
"do not launch missiles"
"do not launch missiles"
"do <crackle> launch missiles"
"do not launch missiles"

LOL

No, it was a 'bit' more complicated than that

daestrom

 

[jriegle]

Damn! Please turn of that HTML! Red text on bright blue! Who are you trying
to annoy?

"Alan McClure" <mcclures@gwis.com> wrote in message
news:10a4pnvm3vsqe42@corp.supernews.com...

Ken Smith wrote:

In article <c7t1i902kvo+AEA-drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield+AF8-member+AEA-newsguy.com> wrote:
[....]


"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."



This is why a familigram might say something like this "..Born 010613 1
ok". Until the sailor comes home he doesn't know the eye color of his
kid.

BTW: They don't trail anything to receive, as far as I know. Trailing
something isn't something they want to have to do to get orders. They do
trail a sonar array which looks like a firehose on the end of a longish
cable. The sonar array isn't deployed all of the time and they can chop
it off if they have to.



Boy, I would love to correct some of the mis-information expounded in
this thread so far.
It's been over thirty years since my last cruise in a fleet balistic
missile submarine and I'm not
sure how much of what I know is still classified.
I will tell you that family grams were limited to about 20 words each
and 3 per patrol.
The boat was nearly continuously receiving civilian teletype news feeds
(AP,UPI, REUTERS).
Reception of relatively high speed message traffic was never a problem
at our normal
operating depth.
Transmitting, however, is/was somewhat problematical. FBMs due to their
mission DO NOT
transmit/radiate any more energy than they have to. Most equipment with
the ability to generate
a signal had its fuses pull to preclude accidentally exposing the boats
position. That included
radio, radar, and sonar.

ARM

 

[Dave VanHorn]

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0684872137/103-4166445-7796668?v=glance

I just picked up this one, having read "blind man's bluff" recently.

The chapter on "Hunt for Red October" was rather chilling, as I was living
in Hawaii at the time.

 

[Boris Mohar]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 07:47:15 GMT, Repeating Rifle <SalmonEgg@sbcglobal.net>
wrote:

in article 10a3gi85h0aum79@corp.supernews.com, Max Hauser at
maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com wrote on 5/11/04 11:20 PM:


I sometimes wonder about the sanity of some audiophiles. Although many do
indeed know what they are talking about, others are like Art Bell. What else
would explain the love affair with tube ampifiers, monster litz cables,
vinyl records over compact disks, and my favorite, a green marker to green
up the area around a CD spindle hole? To tell the truth, I have not heard
much about that last on letely. Is it still in vogue?

Bill

Black produces much better results

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52665,00.html



Regards,

Boris Mohar

Got Knock? - see:
Viatrack Printed Circuit Designs http://www3.sympatico.ca/borism/

 

[bushbadee]

Ha, ha, water skiing seagulls.Couldn't they put weights on it to hold it
below the surface.


"daestrom" <daestrom@NO_SPAM_HEREtwcny.rr.com> wrote in message
news:yrwoc.247311$e17.176084@twister.nyroc.rr.com...

"Ken Smith" <kensmith@violet.rahul.net> wrote in message
news:c7tccp$s9t$1@blue.rahul.net...
In article <c7t1i902kvo@drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield_member@newsguy.com> wrote:
[....]
"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."

This is why a familigram might say something like this "..Born 010613 1+
ok". Until the sailor comes home he doesn't know the eye color of his
kid.

BTW: They don't trail anything to receive, as far as I know. Trailing
something isn't something they want to have to do to get orders. They
do
trail a sonar array which looks like a firehose on the end of a longish
cable. The sonar array isn't deployed all of the time and they can chop
it off if they have to.


We did have a 'floating wire antenna', but it was not for ELF. It's use
was
discouraged because 1) you had to be going slow and near the surface in
order for it to float to the surface, 2) quite often seagulls or other
birds
would sit on it. The sight of 4 or 6 seagulls making 3 knots through the
ocean in a line was something to see through a periscope, but obviously it
gave away our position to anyone nearby.

daestrom
(former submariner)

 

[bushbadee]

You can turn it off on your reciever.
Mine is always off.


"jriegle" <jriegle@att.net> wrote in message
news:vmyoc.48379$Ut1.1361134@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...

Damn! Please turn of that HTML! Red text on bright blue! Who are you
trying
to annoy?

"Alan McClure" <mcclures@gwis.com> wrote in message
news:10a4pnvm3vsqe42@corp.supernews.com...
Ken Smith wrote:

In article <c7t1i902kvo+AEA-drn.newsguy.com>,
Winfield Hill <Winfield+AF8-member+AEA-newsguy.com> wrote:
[....]


"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."



This is why a familigram might say something like this "..Born 010613 1
ok". Until the sailor comes home he doesn't know the eye color of his
kid.

BTW: They don't trail anything to receive, as far as I know. Trailing
something isn't something they want to have to do to get orders. They
do
trail a sonar array which looks like a firehose on the end of a longish
cable. The sonar array isn't deployed all of the time and they can
chop
it off if they have to.



Boy, I would love to correct some of the mis-information expounded in
this thread so far.
It's been over thirty years since my last cruise in a fleet balistic
missile submarine and I'm not
sure how much of what I know is still classified.
I will tell you that family grams were limited to about 20 words each
and 3 per patrol.
The boat was nearly continuously receiving civilian teletype news feeds
(AP,UPI, REUTERS).
Reception of relatively high speed message traffic was never a problem
at our normal
operating depth.
Transmitting, however, is/was somewhat problematical. FBMs due to their
mission DO NOT
transmit/radiate any more energy than they have to. Most equipment with
the ability to generate
a signal had its fuses pull to preclude accidentally exposing the boats
position. That included
radio, radar, and sonar.

ARM

 

[YD]

On Wed, 12 May 2004 15:53:33 +0200, martin griffith
<martingriffith@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

On Wed, 12 May 2004 13:03:19 +0100, Keith Wootten
keithw@nononono.co.uk> wrote:

In message <c7t1i902kvo@drn.newsguy.com>, Winfield Hill
Winfield_member@newsguy.com> writes

[snipped]

"The coded message sent is a repeated, error correcting code. The
bit rate is a few bits per minute, repeated until enough data..."

I bet they're mightily pissed off by HTML messages.

Cheers
bet they get rid of popup ads as well

Not to mention a powerful spamfilter.

- YD.

--
Remove HAT if replying by mail.

 

[Repeating Rifle]

in article 51l5a0pc7b7vr076h3i1l90qsb744rgnna@4ax.com, Boris Mohar at
borism_-void-_@sympatico.ca wrote on 5/12/04 6:50 PM:

and my favorite, a green marker to green
up the area around a CD spindle hole? To tell the truth, I have not heard
much about that last on letely. Is it still in vogue?

Bill

Black produces much better results

http://www.wired.com/news/technology/0,1282,52665,00.html

This use of a marker is a new one for me, but makes reasonable sense. The
use of the green marker that was publicized over five years ago was to
improve the fidelity over that of the digital sound as extracted from the
unmarked CD. That is what I consider to be koo-koo.

Bill

 

[Richard Henry]

"Repeating Rifle" <SalmonEgg@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:BCC724F2.17403%SalmonEgg@sbcglobal.net...

in article 10a3gi85h0aum79@corp.supernews.com, Max Hauser at
maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com wrote on 5/11/04 11:20 PM:

There you may read (with growing awe, if you know the subject) one
Commander
Brett Maraldo describing speaker cables of mercury-filled tubing, and an
ensuing Grand Debate -- as popular then as now -- on skin depth in
conductors: one camp insisting that depth of penetration is the
electrical
wavelength at frequency, and the other group countering that it's the
(!)
acoustical wavelength instead.

I sometimes wonder about the sanity of some audiophiles. Although many do
indeed know what they are talking about, others are like Art Bell. What
else
would explain the love affair with tube ampifiers, monster litz cables,
vinyl records over compact disks, and my favorite, a green marker to green
up the area around a CD spindle hole? To tell the truth, I have not heard
much about that last on letely. Is it still in vogue?

I thought it was green marker around the outside edge. No wonder it didn't
work.

 

[Roy McCammon]

Winfield Hill wrote:

> wrote...

What I can find on the ELF system in use by the US (76Hz)
suggests they can receive ELF at operational speed and depth...


Wow, 76Hz? And this stuff is being discussed in public?

yup.
They considered basing the antenna here in the Texas Hill
country. It was greatly opposed. Fear of ELF. Anyway,
I think the only message is "come up and listen".


--
local optimization seldom leads to global optimization

my e-mail address is: <my first name> <my last name> AT mmm DOT com

 

[Roy McCammon]

Repeating Rifle wrote:

in article 10a3gi85h0aum79@corp.supernews.com, Max Hauser at
maxREMOVE@THIStdl.com wrote on 5/11/04 11:20 PM:


There you may read (with growing awe, if you know the subject) one Commander
Brett Maraldo describing speaker cables of mercury-filled tubing, and an
ensuing Grand Debate -- as popular then as now -- on skin depth in
conductors: one camp insisting that depth of penetration is the electrical
wavelength at frequency, and the other group countering that it's the (!)
acoustical wavelength instead.


I sometimes wonder about the sanity of some audiophiles.

its not about sanity; it's about happiness.




--
local optimization seldom leads to global optimization

my e-mail address is: <my first name> <my last name> AT mmm DOT com