Poxy lead-free solder (again) ...

On 08/03/2012 04:24 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:30:06 AM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:
snip



I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in

electronic devices is ...

Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it in

water. Pure lead is not soluble in water.

Not in pure water, maybe, but organic acids (acetic acid) attack lead
and you can't have decomposition of organics in contact with lead in a landfill,
without some leaching.
Which goes nowhere at all. Landfills are lined with very thick clay
layers, and even if they weren't, heavy metals don't go anywhere in
ground water at earth-surface normal temperatures. See the Oklo natural
reactor in Gabon. It was sitting right there in an aquifer, and
operated on and off for half a million years. The fission products
went something like 1 mile in well over 1 billion years.

The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling.
To save some gloves and respirators, they created a monster. Typical
Eurocrat BS.


Cheers

Phil Hobbs

--
Dr Philip C D Hobbs
Principal Consultant
ElectroOptical Innovations LLC
Optics, Electro-optics, Photonics, Analog Electronics

160 North State Road #203
Briarcliff Manor NY 10510
845-480-2058

hobbs at electrooptical dot net
http://electrooptical.net
 
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.
That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other solvents)
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgp8h$7re$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
solvents)
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.
Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
 
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
It's not BS if it's true.

I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgv5t$csc$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

It's not BS if it's true.

I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash
generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.
Europe has the WEEE directive to deal with waste electronics equipment - but
the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased volume
of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.
 
"tm" <No_one_home@white-house.gov> wrote in message
news:jvgqsp$hn8$1@dont-email.me...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgp8h$7re$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
solvents)
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.



Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.
But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
 
"Phil Hobbs" <pcdhSpamMeSenseless@electrooptical.net> wrote in message
news:IIqdnWc_CruQeYbNnZ2dnUVZ_s6dnZ2d@supernews.com...
On 08/03/2012 04:24 AM, whit3rd wrote:
On Sunday, July 29, 2012 3:30:06 AM UTC-7, Arfa Daily wrote:
snip



I wonder just how much of a problem lead bearing solder used in

electronic devices is ...

Tin and lead is a stable compound, and the lead does not wash out of it
in

water. Pure lead is not soluble in water.

Not in pure water, maybe, but organic acids (acetic acid) attack lead
and you can't have decomposition of organics in contact with lead in a
landfill,
without some leaching.

Which goes nowhere at all. Landfills are lined with very thick clay
layers, and even if they weren't, heavy metals don't go anywhere in ground
water at earth-surface normal temperatures. See the Oklo natural reactor
in Gabon. It was sitting right there in an aquifer, and operated on and
off for half a million years. The fission products went something like 1
mile in well over 1 billion years.

The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling. To
save some gloves and respirators, they created a monster. Typical
Eurocrat BS.


Cheers

Phil Hobbs
Succinct analysis ...

Arfa
 
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1iTSr.512650$1o5.92311@fx03.am4...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgv5t$csc$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

It's not BS if it's true.

I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash
generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.

Europe has the WEEE directive to deal with waste electronics equipment -
but the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased
volume of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.
Yes, it's a truly elegant example of self-fulfilling nonsense legislation,
enacted by fools who have insufficient knowledge of the subject and the
wider implications of the changes they cause ...

Arfa
 
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1iTSr.512650$1o5.92311@fx03.am4...
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgv5t$csc$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

It's not BS if it's true.

I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash
generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.

Europe has the WEEE directive to deal with waste electronics equipment -
but
the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased
volume
of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.

Its only marginal that any "recycling" can be currently done in a western
economy (with E European or Mexican labour/labor rates) . If metals pricing
goes down then even that section , which as far as electronics scrap is
really only the metal casings of pcs , will go back in those thousands of
otherwise empty shipping containers back to the east. The dodgey sell-on of
containers of "nominally" working scrap electronics to Africa will continue
though.
 
"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jvijj9$qgj$1@dont-email.me...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1iTSr.512650$1o5.92311@fx03.am4...


"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgv5t$csc$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

It's not BS if it's true.

I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash
generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.

Europe has the WEEE directive to deal with waste electronics equipment -
but
the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased
volume
of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.



Its only marginal that any "recycling" can be currently done in a western
economy (with E European or Mexican labour/labor rates) . If metals
pricing
goes down then even that section , which as far as electronics scrap is
really only the metal casings of pcs , will go back in those thousands of
otherwise empty shipping containers back to the east. The dodgey sell-on
of
containers of "nominally" working scrap electronics to Africa will
continue
though.
There was a documentary on TV about that something like a year ago - one or
two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the investigating
team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with tracking radios
to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.

Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance with the WEEE
directive; end up in a big pile in India, which is set alight and street
urchins (usually barefoot) shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it
runs out the bottom of the pile.
 
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote
tm <No_one_home@white-house.gov> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
solvents)
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!
But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.

Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
 
"Ian Field" <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:RmaTr.663417$fu5.384224@fx17.am4...
"N_Cook" <diverse@tcp.co.uk> wrote in message
news:jvijj9$qgj$1@dont-email.me...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:1iTSr.512650$1o5.92311@fx03.am4...


"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvgv5t$csc$1@dont-email.me...
The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks
doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and
other solvents) leech lead from electronic equipment,
and it winds up in drinking water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

It's not BS if it's true.

I have never seen conclusive evidence one way or another. From my
perspective, the real issue is the huge piles of electronic trash
generated
every year. If these were properly recycled and/or disposed of, there
probably wouldn't be an issue with lead.

Europe has the WEEE directive to deal with waste electronics equipment -
but
the recycling facilities are being overstretched due to the increased
volume
of scrap caused by low life expectancy lead free solder.



Its only marginal that any "recycling" can be currently done in a western
economy (with E European or Mexican labour/labor rates) . If metals
pricing
goes down then even that section , which as far as electronics scrap is
really only the metal casings of pcs , will go back in those thousands
of
otherwise empty shipping containers back to the east. The dodgey sell-on
of
containers of "nominally" working scrap electronics to Africa will
continue
though.

There was a documentary on TV about that something like a year ago - one
or two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the
investigating team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with
tracking radios to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.

Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance with the WEEE
directive; end up in a big pile in India, which is set alight and street
urchins (usually barefoot) shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it
runs out the bottom of the pile.
Isn't it lovely how we continue to give useful and worthwhile work to the
ex-colonies ... :)

Arfa
 
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a86fojF6foU1@mid.individual.net...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote
tm <No_one_home@white-house.gov> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
solvents)
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!

But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.

Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.
Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside of
those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.

The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart from
in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint. Certainly, lead in
solder posed no threat at all, and removing it has, in my opinion, been a
disastrous retrograde step for the 'green' movement in general, and the
electronics construction and servicing industries in particular. Using the
stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets, and often
shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case when the
mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.

Arfa
 
Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance
with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
the bottom of the pile.
I find this hard to believe.

A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental lead and some
oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery would presumably release only the
former, a waste of the latter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery

A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.

Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades. The cell
construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively straightforward.
Burning the battery is just plain stupid.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automotive_battery_recycling

Note the remark about the sometimes-high value of lead-acid batteries.

In short, I think this story is phony-baloney.
 
"Arfa Daily" <arfa.daily@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:GKtTr.387411$GO2.28066@fx05.am4...
"Rod Speed" <rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:a86fojF6foU1@mid.individual.net...
Ian Field <gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote
tm <No_one_home@white-house.gov> wrote
William Sommerwerck <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote

The ROHS rationale was to protect the health of folks doing
recycling.

That's only part of it. It's supposedly true that rain (and other
solvents)
leech lead from electronic equipment, and it winds up in drinking
water.

Therein lies an example of why we have the RoHS BS.

But lead was mined out of the ground in the first place!

But not much of the drinking water comes from where its mined.

Not that I think it makes any sense at all to ban lead in solder.


Much drinking water in the UK was, and continues to be, supplied via lead
pipes, and not all areas have 'hard' water supplies that coat the inside
of those pipes with a 'protective' limescale layer.

The whole 'lead in the environment' argument makes little sense, apart
from in a few special cases like lead in gasoline and paint. Certainly,
lead in solder posed no threat at all, and removing it has, in my opinion,
been a disastrous retrograde step for the 'green' movement in general, and
the electronics construction and servicing industries in particular. Using
the stuff leads to increased production costs and energy budgets, and
often shorter product lives than would otherwise have been the case when
the mature and reliable technology of leaded solder was used.

Arfa
Compared to raw lead, lead/tin alloy is relatively stable, making solder was
actually binding a hazardous substance and effectively isolating it from the
environment.
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvlq1q$c3o$1@dont-email.me...
Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance
with the WEEE directive; end up in a big pile in India,
which is set alight and street urchins (usually barefoot)
shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it runs out
the bottom of the pile.

I find this hard to believe.

A charged lead-acid battery contains plates of both elemental lead and
some
oxidized form of lead. Burning the battery would presumably release only
the
former, a waste of the latter.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery

A discharged battery contains less elemental lead and more oxidized lead.
Burning it will not reduce the oxidized lead to elemental lead.

Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades. The cell
construction of a car battery makes recycling relatively straightforward.
Burning the battery is just plain stupid.

Unfortunately the slum dwellers in India never got around to installing
state of the art metal reclamation plant.
 
Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades.
The cell construction of a car battery makes recycling
relatively straightforward. Burning the battery is just plain
stupid.

Unfortunately the slum dwellers in India never got around
to installing a state-of-the-art metal-reclamation plant.
True. But the point is that there seems to be no point in doing a botched,
inefficient job of reclaiming battery lead.
 
On Sat, 4 Aug 2012 15:31:26 +0100, "Ian Field"
<gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

There was a documentary on TV about that something like a year ago - one or
two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the investigating
team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with tracking radios
to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.
"Britain's e-waste illegally leaking into West Africa"
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9483000/9483148.stm>
<http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0116gw0>

"e-Waste in Ghana"
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr1zQrXM_7s>
However, the Ghana story migth be a hoax. I can't tell as I have no
way to check the facts:
<http://retroworks.blogspot.com/2012/02/science-daily-africa-e-waste-hoax.html>
<http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11000554-ewaste-recycling-hoax-ngo-basel-action-network-profits-from-racist-images>

"Most lead batteries do not end up with registered recyclers"
<http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/article855184.ece>

Where does e-waste end up? from Greenpeace.
<http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/toxics/electronics/the-e-waste-problem/where-does-e-waste-end-up/>

Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance with the WEEE
directive; end up in a big pile in India, which is set alight and street
urchins (usually barefoot) shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it
runs out the bottom of the pile.
I doubt it. This is how it's done:
<http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling>
It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.

I have several lead bricks in my palatial office. They are VERY
heavy. Filling a wheelbarrow with molten lead would weigh so much
that it would collapse the tire and tip over (because a wheel barrow
is by definition top heavy). At 690 lbs per cubic foot, even filling
a small 4 cubic foot wheelbarrow 1/4th full is too much.

"New method for recycling lead acid batteries"
<http://36ci.com/news/new-method-recycling-lead-acid-batteries>
I couldn't find any details.

Greenpeace video on "Where does e-waste end up?"
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0JZey9GJQP0>
Punch "e-Waste" into YouTube search for more horror stories.

Note what is considered valuable in recycled computahs and
electronics. Here's one recycler who posts his prices (1 week old).
<http://www.scrapmonster.com/scrap-prices/Electronics-Scrap/Motherboards-scraps/46/1/1>
Note that whole computahs only get $0.30/lb, while motherboards get
$4.25/lb. Obviously, it's not the solder that they want.

I've commented on lead recycling politics in this newsgroup several
times in the distant past. I don't want to recycle my comments again.
If anyone wants links, I can Google for them and post them.


--
Jeff Liebermann jeffl@cruzio.com
150 Felker St #D http://www.LearnByDestroying.com
Santa Cruz CA 95060 http://802.11junk.com
Skype: JeffLiebermann AE6KS 831-336-2558
 
"William Sommerwerck" <grizzledgeezer@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:jvm6a9$k2s$1@dont-email.me...
Auto batteries have been recycled in the US for decades.
The cell construction of a car battery makes recycling
relatively straightforward. Burning the battery is just plain
stupid.

Unfortunately the slum dwellers in India never got around
to installing a state-of-the-art metal-reclamation plant.

True. But the point is that there seems to be no point in doing a botched,
inefficient job of reclaiming battery lead.

Nonetheless its a shitty job that the countries of origin don't want to
dirty their hands with - so they dump them in a heap in an Indian slum
district and let the street urchins get on with it.
 
"Jeff Liebermann" <jeffl@cruzio.com> wrote in message
news:hr4t18t30bi35kodb3b7e12a5q14d0fvqc@4ax.com...
On Sat, 4 Aug 2012 15:31:26 +0100, "Ian Field"
gangprobing.alien@ntlworld.com> wrote:

There was a documentary on TV about that something like a year ago - one
or
two of the "nominally working" items were TVs doctored by the
investigating
team to not qualify for that classification, and fitted with tracking
radios
to find out where they ended up - usualy W. Africa.

"Britain's e-waste illegally leaking into West Africa"
http://www.bbc.co.uk/panorama/hi/front_page/newsid_9483000/9483148.stm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b0116gw0

"e-Waste in Ghana"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pr1zQrXM_7s
However, the Ghana story migth be a hoax. I can't tell as I have no
way to check the facts:
http://retroworks.blogspot.com/2012/02/science-daily-africa-e-waste-hoax.html
http://www.allvoices.com/contributed-news/11000554-ewaste-recycling-hoax-ngo-basel-action-network-profits-from-racist-images

"Most lead batteries do not end up with registered recyclers"
http://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/article855184.ece

Where does e-waste end up? from Greenpeace.
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/en/campaigns/toxics/electronics/the-e-waste-problem/where-does-e-waste-end-up/

Car batteries which are allegedly recycled in accordance with the WEEE
directive; end up in a big pile in India, which is set alight and street
urchins (usually barefoot) shovel the molten lead into wheelbarrows as it
runs out the bottom of the pile.

I doubt it. This is how it's done:
http://www.okinternational.org/lead-batteries/Recycling
It's not pretty and probably unsafe, but workable.

Problem is; some dodgy characters have found after employee health & welfare
costs & environmental precaution, its just cheaper to export the old
batteries to a developing country with slums & street urchins to reclaim the
metal for a days food.
 

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