OT: Why are Engineers snookered by Creationism ?

[Daniel Haude]

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:52:05 +0000,
John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote
in Msg. <oo4f8lEVnrYAFwsD@jmwa.demon.co.uk>

Indeed. That is all perfectly logical and correct. Only fools find it
amusing.

Of course it is correct. It is also very much not amusing given the
context in which the particular passage I quoted was said. What is amusing
is the sound of it if read aloud ("like a trombone solo", as James Thurber
wrote about a the sentence: "One knows one's friends will help one if
one's in trouble").

Things we don't know that we don't know:

{I'm not allowed to tell you about them.](;-)

You don't want me to know about the things we don't know we don't know?

--Daniel

--
"With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)

 

[Daniel Haude]

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:13:29 GMT,
Scott Stephens <scottxs@comcast.net> wrote
in Msg. <tbG8c.8689$K91.29163@attbi_s02>

I am familiar with the Anthropic principle, but it can imply that
existence would not exist of nobody was around to experience it.
Therefore, the universe and existence is illogical.

No, the Anthropic principle implies that if nobody is around to experience
existence, then nobody cares about existence and non-existence and
therefore it doesn't matter.

Or expressed differently:

Q: Could the Universe exist without life?

A: Who cares?

--Daniel

--
"With me is nothing wrong! And with you?" (from r.a.m.p)

 

[Paul Burke]

Roger Gt wrote:

X-No-Archive: yes
"Ian Buckner" wrote
: "Walter Harley" wrote
: > Genesis says the world was created in 6 days; on the seventh,
the
: Creator rested.
:
: > But whether you think it's 6 or 7, explaining it as "a
mystical
: > prime number" is circular reasoning. Why is it mystical?
: <snip
: Obviously because 6x7 is the answer to life, the universe and
: everything.
: Regards Ian

At least Dr. Who thought so!

Deep Thought? But I thought the world wasn't created BY Guinnesses but
FOR them.

Paul Burke

 

[Fred Bloggs]

Daniel Haude wrote:

No, the Anthropic principle implies that if nobody is around to experience
existence, then nobody cares about existence and non-existence and
therefore it doesn't matter.

Or expressed differently:

Q: Could the Universe exist without life?

A: Who cares?

--Daniel

Pseudo-intellectual riffraff- get off your lazy kraut butt, find a mop,
and then discover what God really intended you to do- TOTAL WASTE OF
TIME- career pseudo-intellectual "student"- damned joke.

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Daniel Haude <haude@physnet.uni-
hamburg.de> wrote (in <slrnc67vh3.1it.haude@kir.physnet.uni-hamburg.de&gt
about 'OT: Why are Engineers snookered by Creationism ?', on Fri, 26 Mar
2004:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 10:52:05 +0000,
John Woodgate <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote
in Msg. <oo4f8lEVnrYAFwsD@jmwa.demon.co.uk

Indeed. That is all perfectly logical and correct. Only fools find it
amusing.

Of course it is correct. It is also very much not amusing given the
context in which the particular passage I quoted was said. What is
amusing is the sound of it if read aloud ("like a trombone solo", as
James Thurber wrote about a the sentence: "One knows one's friends will
help one if one's in trouble").

Things we don't know that we don't know:

{I'm not allowed to tell you about them.](;-)

You don't want me to know about the things we don't know we don't know?

It isn't me that doesn't want you to know, its Agr*&HGGTRUUU%$$$$

NO CARRIER
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Bill Sloman]

Fred Bloggs <nospam@nospam.com> wrote in message news:<40641AB4.4040600@nospam.com>...

Daniel Haude wrote:

No, the Anthropic principle implies that if nobody is around to experience
existence, then nobody cares about existence and non-existence and
therefore it doesn't matter.

Or expressed differently:

Q: Could the Universe exist without life?

A: Who cares?

--Daniel


Pseudo-intellectual riffraff- get off your lazy kraut butt, find a mop,
and then discover what God really intended you to do- TOTAL WASTE OF
TIME- career pseudo-intellectual "student"- damned joke.

Hmm. Do you have a hot-line to God, through which he told you that He
intended Daniel Haude to spend his time mopping floors? Or are you a
member of a religious sect that believes that mopping floors induces a
mental state in which you can discern God's intentions?

Just curious ....

-------
Bill Sloman, Nijmegen

 

[Mark Fergerson]

John Larkin wrote:

On Wed, 24 Mar 2004 13:18:46 -0800, "Paul Hovnanian P.E."
Paul@Hovnanian.com> wrote:


Kevin Aylward wrote:

Dave wrote:

Why are so many engineers snookered by Creationism? They grow up
thinking about designs and then they study all the math and the design
techniques and they tend to look at things from the viewpoint of "What
makes it tick?" Generally they do NOT study biology, but they have an
awe for it. Then they happen across a book by one of the dozen or so
nitwit creationists and they are hooked. It seems so natural to expect
that everything MUST have been designed. Heck why not the earth also
just as the Bible says? Then they park their brains entirely and join
the "YEC" (young earth creationist) camp.

A solution that is only achievable by postulating an entity that can, do
anything, be everywhere at once, and knows all, doesn't appear to be a
particular useful solution.

Evidently, you've never prepared a system requirements document for some
poor subcontractor to implement. ;-)


At least God got six days to get the job done.

He also got to define what "day" meant, among other
things. Give me that kind of latitude and I'll never fail to
deliver on schedule, within budget, either.

Mark L. Fergerson

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org>
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403260930.7bc2be0@posting.google.com&gt about 'OT:
Why are Engineers snookered by Creationism ?', on Fri, 26 Mar 2004:

Or are you a
member of a religious sect that believes that mopping floors induces a
mental state in which you can discern God's intentions?

Didn't you know that? It's a sure-fire certain way to enlightenment. Of
course, you might starve for lack of pay before you reach it.
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 17:51:10 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Bill Sloman <bill.sloman@ieee.org
wrote (in <7c584d27.0403260930.7bc2be0@posting.google.com&gt about 'OT:
Why are Engineers snookered by Creationism ?', on Fri, 26 Mar 2004:
Or are you a
member of a religious sect that believes that mopping floors induces a
mental state in which you can discern God's intentions?

Didn't you know that? It's a sure-fire certain way to enlightenment. Of
course, you might starve for lack of pay before you reach it.

From what I've read of Japanese practices, Zen enlightenment is a
state of mental breakdown induced by deliberate sleep deprivation. And
whacking with wooden sticks. You could buy a 24-hour diner and refuse
to hire help...

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Mark Zenier]

"Walter Harley" <walterh@cafewalterNOSPAM.com> wrote in message news:<c3v42p$n83$0@216.39.172.65>...

"Roger Gt" <not@here.net> wrote in message
news:2fw8c.28515$dc7.6021@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com...

"Walter Harley" wrote
: "Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote
: [...] Questioning the scripture
: > that says the world was created in 6 days isn't heresy. [...]

Actually it was 7. And 7 is a mystical prime number.

Genesis says the world was created in 6 days; on the seventh, the Creator
rested.

But whether you think it's 6 or 7, explaining it as "a mystical prime
number" is circular reasoning. Why is it mystical?

The thing that needs to be explained is this: since time immemorial, this
particular creation myth has been associated with the numbers 6 and 7. So
far as I know, this is true at least back to Sumerian times; but I don't
know how much before that it goes, my knowledge of ancient history and
mythology being fairly weak. Why, originally, in that distant past, did
they come up with (one of) those numbers?
...

A speculation: Economy and Astronomy.

The Moon orbits the earth roughly every 28 days. In an agricultural
economy, the towns have market days every 5 to 10 days.

So the phases of the Moon make a convenient indicator to schedule when
people go into town to trade their goods. (And the Full Moon was very
important source of light in a society without artificial lighting).

So the priests tailor their tales to match the lives of their congregation.

I gather that the Romans used a 10 day week, for efficiency reasons.
Probably why Christianity, with its 7 day week, caught on.

Mark Zenier mzenier@eskimo.com Washington State resident

 

[John Woodgate]

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <0n09601suv79q6lqgmrsla147abbjfmbk3@4ax.com&gt
about 'OT: Why are Engineers snookered by Creationism ?', on Fri, 26 Mar
2004:

From what I've read of Japanese practices, Zen enlightenment is a state
of mental breakdown induced by deliberate sleep deprivation. And
whacking with wooden sticks. You could buy a 24-hour diner and refuse to
hire help...

.... or start a one-man business as an electronics consultant. (;-)
--
Regards, John Woodgate, OOO - Own Opinions Only.
The good news is that nothing is compulsory.
The bad news is that everything is prohibited.
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk Also see http://www.isce.org.uk

 

[Spehro Pefhany]

On Fri, 26 Mar 2004 19:40:56 +0000, the renowned John Woodgate
<jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote:

I read in sci.electronics.design that Spehro Pefhany <speffSNIP@interlog
DOTyou.knowwhat> wrote (in <0n09601suv79q6lqgmrsla147abbjfmbk3@4ax.com&gt
about 'OT: Why are Engineers snookered by Creationism ?', on Fri, 26 Mar
2004:
From what I've read of Japanese practices, Zen enlightenment is a state
of mental breakdown induced by deliberate sleep deprivation. And
whacking with wooden sticks. You could buy a 24-hour diner and refuse to
hire help...

... or start a one-man business as an electronics consultant. (;-)

I can't put my finger on it, but there is something deeply disturbing
about that suggestion.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

 

[Paul Hovnanian P.E.]

Roger Gt wrote:

[snip]

Keeping the target audience at a low level of comprehension gives
a greater control and pool of potential followers. Those who do
not progress in personal knowledge provide a dedicated core.

Hmm. The Al Qaida method.

I look at it the other way around. There are quite a few denominations
of various basic beliefs. Some encourage examination and review of their
belief systems in light of modern learning. Others do not. Given a
population with a broad range of intellectual capabilities, each
individual will gravitate toward the group that best suits them. Some
people still can't handle numbers bigger than 7. ;-)

Some who resisted advancing human knowledge were "Luddites" who
believed all human developed technology was the work of the devil.

http://www.regent.edu/acad/schcom/rojc/mdic/luddites.html

The Luddite views on technology was greatly influenced by their own self
interests.

--
Paul Hovnanian mailtoaul@Hovnanian.com
note to spammers: a Washington State resident
------------------------------------------------------------------
"There's something vewy scwewy going on awound here." -- Elmer Fudd

 

[Roger Gt]

"Paul Hovnanian P.E." wrote in message
news:40649C38.A9C232B0@Hovnanian.com...
: Roger Gt wrote:
: >
: [snip]
:
: > Keeping the target audience at a low level of comprehension
gives
: > a greater control and pool of potential followers. Those who
do
: > not progress in personal knowledge provide a dedicated core.
:
: Hmm. The Al Qaida method.
:
: I look at it the other way around. There are quite a few
denominations
: of various basic beliefs. Some encourage examination and review
of their
: belief systems in light of modern learning. Others do not. Given
a
: population with a broad range of intellectual capabilities, each
: individual will gravitate toward the group that best suits them.
Some
: people still can't handle numbers bigger than 7. ;-)

Perhaps I was too general. I agree that a cafe approach to
selecting a social group which suits your interests and beliefs is
the Right way. I was referring to the manipulation of those who
can be influenced and from that group there are many who can't tie
their own shoes!

: > Some who resisted advancing human knowledge were "Luddites"
who
: > believed all human developed technology was the work of the
devil.
: >
: > http://www.regent.edu/acad/schcom/rojc/mdic/luddites.html
:
: The Luddite views on technology was greatly influenced by their
own self
: interests.

As with all organized groups, it is just that most are not quite
so self destructive.

 

[Richard Henry]

"John Woodgate" <jmw@jmwa.demon.contraspam.yuk> wrote in message
news:eSaySBKf4yYAFwYs@jmwa.demon.co.uk...

I read in sci.electronics.design that Richard Henry <rphenry@home.com
wrote (in <MLF8c.3372$Q45.935@fed1read02&gt about 'OT: Why are Engineers
snookered by Creationism ?', on Thu, 25 Mar 2004:
"Mares eat oats and does eat oats
And little lambs eat ivy"

?

What doesn't make sense about that?

What can you do with the next two lines, though?

A kid'll eat ivy, too
Wouldn't you?

Besides, lambs that ate ivy would rapidly expire.

I assume it's fiction. When we learned this song in school, there was
another about a ram who butted down a dam.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Kevin Aylward" <kevindotaylwardEXTRACT@anasoft.co.uk> wrote in message
news:OFG8c.154$a.84@newsfep3-gui.server.ntli.net...

No its getting much better. When I was at school certain religious
behaviour was forced on one. Its changed now, what with more human
rights laws.

Me, too. The Lord's Prayer in the morning, Bible stories in the reading
books...

Most are gone, but they still have an oath to a piece of cloth.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Ian Buckner" <Ian_Buckner@agilent.com> wrote in message
news:1080292461.402997@cswreg.cos.agilent.com...

"Walter Harley" <walterh@cafewalterNOSPAM.com> wrote in message
news:c3v42p$n83$0@216.39.172.65...
Genesis says the world was created in 6 days; on the seventh, the
Creator
rested.

But whether you think it's 6 or 7, explaining it as "a mystical
prime
number" is circular reasoning. Why is it mystical?

snip

Obviously because 6x7 is the answer to life, the universe and
everything.

Actually, it's 6 x 9.

 

[Richard Henry]

"Bill Sloman" <bill.sloman@ieee.org> wrote in message
news:7c584d27.0403260930.7bc2be0@posting.google.com...

Or are you a
member of a religious sect that believes that mopping floors induces a
mental state in which you can discern God's intentions?

Today I finished a brick sidewalk in my side yard. The last step was slowly
sweeping sand into all the brick-brick spaces. I found it very soothing and
was disappointed when all the cracks were filled.

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Daniel Haude wrote:

On Thu, 25 Mar 2004 19:13:29 GMT,
Scott Stephens <scottxs@comcast.net> wrote
in Msg. <tbG8c.8689$K91.29163@attbi_s02

I am familiar with the Anthropic principle, but it can imply that
existence would not exist of nobody was around to experience it.
Therefore, the universe and existence is illogical.

No, the Anthropic principle implies that if nobody is around to experience
existence, then nobody cares about existence and non-existence and
therefore it doesn't matter.

Or expressed differently:

Q: Could the Universe exist without life?
-----------------

The Universe cannot exist without Life, because
Life = the Perceived Universe.
A world unperceived is a non-existent world.
Without a Being in a World, no World exists.
Existence is entirely subjective and of an entirely imaginary
nature. No atoms are real except that they are ideas in the mind.
No perception is real except that it is as real as anything gets!
Another word for the Cosmos, All Universes, is The Imagination.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public

 

[R. Steve Walz]

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Daniel Haude wrote:

No, the Anthropic principle implies that if nobody is around to experience
existence, then nobody cares about existence and non-existence and
therefore it doesn't matter.

Or expressed differently:

Q: Could the Universe exist without life?

A: Who cares?

--Daniel


Pseudo-intellectual riffraff- get off your lazy kraut butt, find a mop,
and then discover what God really intended you to do- TOTAL WASTE OF
TIME- career pseudo-intellectual "student"- damned joke.
-------------

Insane Xtian revenge fantasy for revealing your state of delusion.

-Steve
--
-Steve Walz rstevew@armory.com ftp://ftp.armory.com/pub/user/rstevew
Electronics Site!! 1000's of Files and Dirs!! With Schematics Galore!!
http://www.armory.com/~rstevew or http://www.armory.com/~rstevew/Public