OT: Whole house ventilation

Joerg · Jun 13, 2005

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Jim Thompson · Jun 13, 2005

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 13:52:36 -0700, Wes Stewart <n7ws_@*yahoo.com>
wrote:

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:33 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic.

Probably better posted to alt.home.repair

But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Who says the Borgs don't have them. In Arizona, they're called
"evaporative coolers." I have one running as I speak. The "filter"
in this case is a water dampened pad of pleated paper or shreaded
aspen fibers. It's about 100F outside and 75F inside.

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Rene Tschaggelar · Jun 13, 2005

Joerg wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Having the mainstream being crap leaves room for improvements
for those wishing to spend more bucks.

Rene
--
Ing.Buero R.Tschaggelar - http://www.ibrtses.com
& commercial newsgroups - http://www.talkto.net

Joerg · Jun 13, 2005

Hello Jim,

At the altitude where Joerg resides, a dry swamp cooler with fiber
glass filters would probably work, or just use the dry Aspen as a
filter.

Yes, they do work. But all the ones I have seen are either bulky (huge)
or plain ugly. None can be built into a wall flush with both sides
because of the large conveyor or drip system. Then there are roof top
units but after a new freaking expensive roof I don't want to tear into
that just yet. Also, a big hump on the house doesn't exactly increase
curb appeal.

The conveyor in swamp coolers doesn't make a really good filter either.
People that have swamp coolers have reported increased dust as well,
just not as much as thos with whole house fans.

All one really needs is a fan with automatic burglar proof louvers and a
nice filter as a unit. Then wait for the right time of the day, in our
case the delta breeze in the evening from the Sacramento river delta.
That's cool enough even after most of the very hot days.

Most swamp coolers have another downside. If not used for a week or so
the water becomes stale. Then it'll stink when turned on again and worst
case it becomes a breeding ground for West Nile virus mosquitoes after
several weeks of not using it.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Joerg · Jun 13, 2005

Hello Rene,

Having the mainstream being crap leaves room for improvements
for those wishing to spend more bucks.

Whole house fans aren't crap, I just don't find them practical. More
bucks is no problem but none of the mainstream manufacturers offers
anything as an alternative at the hardware stores.

Most homes in the US have an air-duct heating and cooling system. It
could easily be equipped with outside air exchange. But not after the fact.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Rich Grise · Jun 13, 2005

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 22:02:16 +0000, Joerg wrote:

Hello Rene,

Having the mainstream being crap leaves room for improvements
for those wishing to spend more bucks.

Whole house fans aren't crap, I just don't find them practical. More
bucks is no problem but none of the mainstream manufacturers offers
anything as an alternative at the hardware stores.

Most homes in the US have an air-duct heating and cooling system. It
could easily be equipped with outside air exchange. But not after the fact.

With a forced-air furnace in the basement, in the summer (in Minnesota)
we would open the big access panel on the furnace, and turn the fan on.
It cooled the whole house with basement air. A dehumidifier helps
dramatically.

Cheers!
Rich

Joerg · Jun 13, 2005

Hello Rich,

With a forced-air furnace in the basement, in the summer (in Minnesota)
we would open the big access panel on the furnace, and turn the fan on.
It cooled the whole house with basement air. A dehumidifier helps
dramatically.

I also thought about that since ours is outside. But our access panel is
in a location that doesn't get much cool air. It would require long duct
work which would be visible. The other concern is that the intake should
be high up just in case uncle Leroy has a stogie.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Fred Bloggs · Jun 14, 2005

Joerg wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I don't know why you can't install a largish electrostatic air cleaner
flush to an outside shaded wall and duct that through to various parts
of the bottom floor with registers- from there to the whole house top
floor exit. The air cleaner is activated by a sensitive sail switch. Do
you have a crawl space...

Fred Bloggs · Jun 14, 2005

Fred Bloggs wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people
who live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at
Home Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house
through a filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking
unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and
the house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts
of dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it
takes is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you
realize the winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off
it's too late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

I don't know why you can't install a largish electrostatic air cleaner
flush to an outside shaded wall and duct that through to various parts
of the bottom floor with registers- from there to the whole house top
floor exit. The air cleaner is activated by a sensitive sail switch. Do
you have a crawl space...

Never mind- that air cleaner really wants a high volumetric flow to
prevent overheating and burnout. Unless your house is really tight this
won't work- you will have to custom design one.

Joerg · Jun 14, 2005

Hello Fred,

I don't know why you can't install a largish electrostatic air cleaner
flush to an outside shaded wall and duct that through to various parts
of the bottom floor with registers- from there to the whole house top
floor exit. The air cleaner is activated by a sensitive sail switch. Do
you have a crawl space...

Crawl space, yes, but all floors have a 2" mud bed and many are tiled.
That situation isn't too conducive here. What I have in mind is
something that doesn't have to be modified into the function but comes
as a kit that is meant for thru-wall installation.

There are fresh air intakes with motorized diverters for industrial
buildings. But they are huge and expensive.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Fred Bloggs · Jun 14, 2005

Joerg wrote:

Hello Fred,

I don't know why you can't install a largish electrostatic air cleaner
flush to an outside shaded wall and duct that through to various parts
of the bottom floor with registers- from there to the whole house top
floor exit. The air cleaner is activated by a sensitive sail switch.
Do you have a crawl space...

Crawl space, yes, but all floors have a 2" mud bed and many are tiled.
That situation isn't too conducive here. What I have in mind is
something that doesn't have to be modified into the function but comes
as a kit that is meant for thru-wall installation.

There are fresh air intakes with motorized diverters for industrial
buildings. But they are huge and expensive.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

Hmmm- well the most readily available thru-wall installation you have in
place are the windows. Choose two windows at opposite extremes of the
first floor and fit them with filters when open- it's easy to make a
decorative frame with those pre-fabbed grills you can get anywhere-
stick a fiber filter in there.

Jun 14, 2005

Joerg <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic.

As has been mentioned, alt.home.repair may help. Even though they are
theoretically better places to ask, you will get no help in
sci.engr.heat-vent-ac and probably none in alt.hvac .

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house?

It's probably easier to install a big motor and fan in the ceiling than
it is in an exterior wall or window. Also, the one in the ceiling can
use a cheap motor; the one in the wall or window might have to use one
that's better sealed against moisture.

Why is there no system available at Home Depot, Lowes or other places
that blows air into the house through a filter and then out the screen
doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Well, window fans have existed forever, just without a filter. I
suppose you could rig a furnace filter onto the intake side of the fan.
Again, you might run into trouble trying to hold a larger motor in place
in the window frame.

Matt Roberds

Rene Tschaggelar · Jun 14, 2005

Joerg wrote:

Hello Rene,

Having the mainstream being crap leaves room for improvements
for those wishing to spend more bucks.

Whole house fans aren't crap, I just don't find them practical. More
bucks is no problem but none of the mainstream manufacturers offers
anything as an alternative at the hardware stores.

Most homes in the US have an air-duct heating and cooling system. It
could easily be equipped with outside air exchange. But not after the fact.

I didn't mean the hardware is crap it is the lacking design.
A lot can be done with a properly designed air flow.
Newer houses over here are built with the "minergy" rules,
which means they have forced air exchange. No more opening
the window to get fresh air. For smaller units, such as
single family homes have a common fan together with an
earth register and a heat exchanger, thus a rather high
percentage of the warmth/(cold) is preserved.
A colleague of mine is manufacturing CO2 sensors, to
have the fan only work as much as is necessary to have
fresh air inside.

Rene

Jim Thompson · Jun 14, 2005

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 10:20:51 +0200, Rene Tschaggelar <none@none.net>
wrote:

Joerg wrote:

Hello Rene,

Having the mainstream being crap leaves room for improvements
for those wishing to spend more bucks.

Whole house fans aren't crap, I just don't find them practical. More
bucks is no problem but none of the mainstream manufacturers offers
anything as an alternative at the hardware stores.

Most homes in the US have an air-duct heating and cooling system. It
could easily be equipped with outside air exchange. But not after the fact.

I didn't mean the hardware is crap it is the lacking design.
A lot can be done with a properly designed air flow.
Newer houses over here are built with the "minergy" rules,
which means they have forced air exchange. No more opening
the window to get fresh air. For smaller units, such as
single family homes have a common fan together with an
earth register and a heat exchanger, thus a rather high
percentage of the warmth/(cold) is preserved.
A colleague of mine is manufacturing CO2 sensors, to
have the fan only work as much as is necessary to have
fresh air inside.

Rene

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

John Larkin · Jun 14, 2005

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:33 GMT, Joerg
<notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

What, is it getting hot down there? We still have our heat on in Da
City. Lots of pollen, though; Beconase time!

John

Frank Bemelman · Jun 14, 2005

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:1cmre.591$Pa5.22@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes

The amount of pollen is neglible compared to what's created inside,
house dust mite, dead skin particles, dandruff, pets loosing hair
and what have you

But can't you reverse the fan, mount it upside down perhaps? Plus
add a filter? Also, during the time of the year you use screen
doors, I guess you could turn the fan off.

--
Thanks, Frank.
(remove 'q' and 'invalid' when replying by email)

Keith Williams · Jun 14, 2005

In article <avrta11ehlt3s0e0j2ua057mver9cmmu4p@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...

On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:33 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

What, is it getting hot down there? We still have our heat on in Da
City. Lots of pollen, though; Beconase time!

The heat is on here too. It got to 89F Saturday and Sunday. ;-) The
pollen is amazing. The ground is yellow from the Maple pollen. The
cars are a mess!

--
Keith

Jim Thompson · Jun 14, 2005

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:45:08 -0400, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz>
wrote:

In article <avrta11ehlt3s0e0j2ua057mver9cmmu4p@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:33 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

What, is it getting hot down there? We still have our heat on in Da
City. Lots of pollen, though; Beconase time!

The heat is on here too. It got to 89F Saturday and Sunday. ;-) The
pollen is amazing. The ground is yellow from the Maple pollen. The
cars are a mess!

480)460-2350 | |
| E-mail Address at Website Fax

Spehro Pefhany · Jun 14, 2005

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 17:21:55 +0200, the renowned "Frank Bemelman"
<f.bemelmanq@xs4all.invalid.nl> wrote:

"Joerg" <notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> schreef in bericht
news:1cmre.591$Pa5.22@newssvr21.news.prodigy.com...

house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes

The amount of pollen is neglible compared to what's created inside,
house dust mite, dead skin particles, dandruff, pets loosing hair
and what have you

Yabbut, some of us are not bothered by dust, dust mite excrement and
pet dander, but are bothered by pollen and tree crap.

But can't you reverse the fan, mount it upside down perhaps? Plus
add a filter? Also, during the time of the year you use screen
doors, I guess you could turn the fan off.

I like the idea of maintaining positive pressure on the house. It
would tend to make doors blow open though if they were not securely
latched.

Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

John Larkin · Jun 14, 2005

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 08:58:56 -0700, Jim Thompson
<thegreatone@example.com> wrote:

On Tue, 14 Jun 2005 11:45:08 -0400, Keith Williams <krw@att.bizzzz
wrote:

In article <avrta11ehlt3s0e0j2ua057mver9cmmu4p@4ax.com>,
jjlarkin@highNOTlandTHIStechnologyPART.com says...
On Mon, 13 Jun 2005 20:41:33 GMT, Joerg
notthisjoergsch@removethispacbell.net> wrote:

Hello Folks,

This is electrical but quite a bit off topic. But maybe some people who
live in hot climates know:

Why are whole house ventilation systems by default "whole house fans"
that suck air out of the house? Why is there no system available at Home
Depot, Lowes or other places that blows air into the house through a
filter and then out the screen doors instead of sucking unfiltered air in?

Thing is, when you use a whole house fan you have to leave one or
several doors open with just the screens between the outside air and the
house. The result is that people regularly find enourmous amounts of
dust and pollen inside because everything gets sucked in. All it takes
is one gentle breeze through a stand of pines. Before you realize the
winds kicking up and rush inside to flip the switch to off it's too
late. Makes not sense to me.

Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com

What, is it getting hot down there? We still have our heat on in Da
City. Lots of pollen, though; Beconase time!

The heat is on here too. It got to 89F Saturday and Sunday. ;-) The
pollen is amazing. The ground is yellow from the Maple pollen. The
cars are a mess!

89°F ?? Is that all? We're running 95°-100°F here. Spring at last
;-)

...Jim Thompson

It really warmed up this morning: 58F in the sun, 9:30 am, according
to my Omega type K. It's gonna be a scorcher.

John

OT: Whole house ventilation

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